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09-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 26
Post ID: 16973
Reply to: 16967
Surround Sound
fiogf49gjkf0d
Clark, I have wondered if you ever "hear" the old records you are surrounded with, because the atmosphere is so "historically charged" that it simply imbues the space?  Even in rote terms, those 78s have to make for good "surround".

Hard to imagine from the ticket prices that Bayreuth would ever see hard times...

Best regards,
Paul S
09-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 16976
Reply to: 16963
About Sound in Video Room
fiogf49gjkf0d

I would like to pass some observations on my about sound quality in my video room.  The sound in my video room is what I would call very very good, I am not kidding – really good.  It is delivered by Altec 21S speaker driven by Yamaha B2 amp and Yamaha C2 preamp. All cables are the RadioShack crap (they are very bad, do not listen the fools who try to convince in opposite) and the speaker cables are 14ga wire from the same RadioShack.  Am I kidding or boolshitting you? No kidding and no boolshitting going on here.

I do not want to lie to you and would like to note that if I use my borrowed DVD player and play audio CD with more or less serious symphonic repertoire then my audio system in my Video Room instantly demonstrates own ugliness. It is not that some specific aspects are wrong but rather the whole sound is so much in unsophisticated scale that it below me even to criticize it.  Still, with video material all those problems do not manifest itself and sound is very much not annoying, in fact it is very much enjoyable.

What I am observing is very much confirms what I was saying back in 90s when I had quite sophisticated 5.2 channels audio system for video. At that time I was pitching that audio installation for video room must not be more sophisticated than $500. Yes, I did it while I had over $75K audio system for video. It does not call paradox, it called idiocy.  Then I sold all my audio setup for HT and did not touch HT for 14 years. Now I have my Altec 21S that looks like wonderful furniture but that with all honesty in the scale of my audio reference do not deliver better sound then $500 audio system. It is all that I, you, we need for video rooms and trust me they do absolutely wonderful in video rooms.

Video material is intrinsically are horribly recorded and even at my $500  audio playback I feel that it able to deliver much better sound then the souse can offer.  I do not blame my DVD player, in fact I think that this borrowed Oppo is MUCH better then I expected and I am planning to try to experiment it in my main audio system as transport and as player. It is not the DVD player’s fault but the extreme primitivism of the played material, would it be DVD or BlueRay.

I do not see any need to more than 2 channels. I know some folks feel that it need to be 5, or more channels but it is not what I feel. I have enough speakers in my house and enough amps to add more channels but I have absolutely no interest or temptations to do it.

I also admit that I am not video room expert. I do have experience and some sophistication with audio installation but I do not have acquired taste with multimedia rooms. What I get is fine to me but I do not mind to learn something. So, what I am willing to do is to invite some local folks that I know who are practicing video room for years and to ask them to point out for me the specific problems with my video sound that they might with their developed experience to recognize. It might be educational and I will post what they criticized.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 112
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 28
Post ID: 16980
Reply to: 16976
Video room
fiogf49gjkf0d
Sorry for this long rant but I feel a rebuttal is necessary.

1. Back in the 90's you had 480 I video and 16/44 or dolby 2.1 analog audio. Then the sound was crap as was the video so you could get away with a crappy setup. Now we have 1080P video and 24/96 5.1 audio to reproduce. Thus, one can  obtain significantly better sound and picture if one has the proper system.

2. I don't know about others, but when I go to a concert I do not wear blinders or have Sonex behind my ears to block out the visual and hall reflections which make up anywhere from 20 to possibly 80% of the sound you are perceiving in a great concert venue. I try to sit as centered as possible in the front third of the hall where the sonics are the best and I can view the way the artists are performing, not just hear them.

3. Thus I try to reproduce that concert hall experience as closely as possible. Using a small television set with large 2 channel speakers would be the equivalent of seeing the orchestra from the back of the second balcony with the sound equivalent of being in an open area with the natural hall reverberance mixed into the front soundstage. 

4. With the 5.1 channel 24/96 1080P well engineered concert discs now on BluRay coming out of Europe, at least one gets a sense aurally of whast it is like to be in the concert hall. While I* agree that most of the visuals annoyingly flit from player to player rather than keeping the visual feel that one is sitting in one seat, at least the audio on the best gives me the sound that the conductor is hearing, possiblyb the best seat in the house.

5. We all hear and perceive sound differently depending on our audio upbringing and genetics. I have a friend who finds stereo annoying as he has difficulty integrating a solid image from stereo. Thus he prefers listening to his stereo system from another room. I can just remember the arguments back in the 50's over mono vs. stereo and how stereo would forever muck up the sound. 
   Most of us came up in the mono to stereo era and became accustomed to the inherent imaging distortion of having the hall sound mixed in with the two front channels. I prefer to have it placed where it belongs; around me through the use of surround channels. Others will prefer to keep it in front changing the sound emanating directly from ther musicians.

6. When I  go to see a movie at a theater, I want the best image and sound possible without overloading my senses. Thus I sit as close to the center of the hall as possible with the screen filling my visual field. Unhappily, 90% of the time  either some yahoo is talking on his cellphone or the projector bulb is at its life expectancy and the image is darker than night. With my home theater 10 foot diagonal 16x9 screen with an analog 3 tube projector with 7 horn loudspeakers sitting 10 feet away, I can be immersed in either the movie or concert experience as well or popssibly better than being at the original venue. You can't do that with a 30 inch television and 2 speakers.

7. I have been to Romy's and find his audio system to produce the best two channel sound I've ever heard. I just wish he would now go forward and use his expertise to produce a video-surround audio experience to equal it rather than settling for a 1990's setup. 

09-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 16984
Reply to: 16956
A "new" video room with Altec 21s
fiogf49gjkf0d
Perhaps that sick idiot who was popping up at my site last year and who insisted that I am gay was right. Perhaps I am a gay as I lately discover my unhealthy interest for cheap room decoration…. Oh, well I wish I was… 

 The reality is that the appearance of the Altec 21S pretty mach made me to redecorate the room to make Altec to feel in there like home. If someone would tell you that Altec 19 make bad furniture then throe stone in the face of the lair…
 
Anyhow, today I spent most of the day to work with my electrician, rewiring the room and to set it up electrically in the way I want. It is all done. The only thing is left in the room is to hand my final 120” screen (the screen wires are going to be hidden in power entry behind the screen) and to accept the donation of big ass brown couch from my local audio body.

Funny but I spent so many efforts for such ridicules things! For instance I would like to have a really large and high air flow ceiling fan right above the couch. The house has center air but I like the fans, the smokers will get it. The ceiling fans are no rated by dB noise. So, I got a few and tested them, until I found the one that has the lowest noise.

Anyhow, it is all gone now and the room “feels” pretty nice to me and it is surprisingly good sounding, perhaps as the room has no first reflection on the left and right the loudspeakers.  Funny, what I was buying this house I very much discarded the room as worthless…

NewVidioRoom3WithAltec21s.JPG

NewVidioRoom1WithAltec21s.JPG

NewVidioRoom2WithAltec21s.JPG

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-11-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 16994
Reply to: 16980
I am not so comfortable with multichannel.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Bill wrote:
Sorry for this long rant but I feel a rebuttal is necessary.

1. Back in the 90's you had 480 I video and 16/44 or dolby 2.1 analog audio. Then the sound was crap as was the video so you could get away with a crappy setup. Now we have 1080P video and 24/96 5.1 audio to reproduce. Thus, one can  obtain significantly better sound and picture if one has the proper system.

2. I don't know about others, but when I go to a concert I do not wear blinders or have Sonex behind my ears to block out the visual and hall reflections which make up anywhere from 20 to possibly 80% of the sound you are perceiving in a great concert venue. I try to sit as centered as possible in the front third of the hall where the sonics are the best and I can view the way the artists are performing, not just hear them.

3. Thus I try to reproduce that concert hall experience as closely as possible. Using a small television set with large 2 channel speakers would be the equivalent of seeing the orchestra from the back of the second balcony with the sound equivalent of being in an open area with the natural hall reverberance mixed into the front soundstage. 

4. With the 5.1 channel 24/96 1080P well engineered concert discs now on BluRay coming out of Europe, at least one gets a sense aurally of whast it is like to be in the concert hall. While I* agree that most of the visuals annoyingly flit from player to player rather than keeping the visual feel that one is sitting in one seat, at least the audio on the best gives me the sound that the conductor is hearing, possiblyb the best seat in the house.

5. We all hear and perceive sound differently depending on our audio upbringing and genetics. I have a friend who finds stereo annoying as he has difficulty integrating a solid image from stereo. Thus he prefers listening to his stereo system from another room. I can just remember the arguments back in the 50's over mono vs. stereo and how stereo would forever muck up the sound. 
   Most of us came up in the mono to stereo era and became accustomed to the inherent imaging distortion of having the hall sound mixed in with the two front channels. I prefer to have it placed where it belongs; around me through the use of surround channels. Others will prefer to keep it in front changing the sound emanating directly from ther musicians.

6. When I  go to see a movie at a theater, I want the best image and sound possible without overloading my senses. Thus I sit as close to the center of the hall as possible with the screen filling my visual field. Unhappily, 90% of the time  either some yahoo is talking on his cellphone or the projector bulb is at its life expectancy and the image is darker than night. With my home theater 10 foot diagonal 16x9 screen with an analog 3 tube projector with 7 horn loudspeakers sitting 10 feet away, I can be immersed in either the movie or concert experience as well or popssibly better than being at the original venue. You can't do that with a 30 inch television and 2 speakers.

7. I have been to Romy's and find his audio system to produce the best two channel sound I've ever heard. I just wish he would now go forward and use his expertise to produce a video-surround audio experience to equal it rather than settling for a 1990's setup. 

I do admit that the 5 channels in the way how they were made in 90s, when I did multichannel for video was very bad, there is no argument in here. In fact the multichannel were artificially encoded and extracted from 2 channels. Do you think it is being done different now? Do you think that recording 5 channels on BlueRay nowadays they record with 5 microphones on 5 independent channels? I do not think so. I very much think that they extract 5 channels from the same 2 channels. Why would they go for expense and complexity to do multichannel recording if 1) no one would distinct it from artificially made multichannel and then up-converted to 24/96? Nowaday they release the WWII recording in SACD and claim that they “sound better”. What else might be said?

I am not against to try multichannel but I do not feel a NEED for multichannel Sound and for the whole notion of surround channels. Sure it might be implemented and it might add some special illusions but I honestly do not feel that this illusion is truly essential or even beneficial. Perhaps I did not hear the properly made multichannel. In your room when you played multichannel sound was good but I did not find it good because of it multichannel, in fact I did not exactly understood when it was multichannel. Perhaps I need to visit you and you need to play to me the very same fragment in multichannel and in 2ch PCM. I think this would be an interesting experiment.

Again, we do not know what they do with 3 left over channels if they did record in multichannel. It is highly possible that they mix 2ch with the left over from another channels in order intentionally compromise 2ch and sell more multichannel. They do the same with CD layer of SACD format, so I have very little of any expectation to the industry crooks. I know that they would fuck up whatever they are able to fuck up….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 112
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 31
Post ID: 16996
Reply to: 16994
Multichannel recordinmgs
fiogf49gjkf0d
Do you think that recording 5 channels on BlueRay nowadays they record with 5 microphones on 5 independent channels?
I admit that some of the so-called multichannel blurays have been made using possibly two channel masters and adding reverb for hall effect, but the same tricks aRE done with two channel recordings. The best are being mastered in original 24/96 5.0 or 5.1 channels picking up the hall ambiance and placing it where it belongs. You should listen to what Kimber is doing with his special microphone setup which isolates the hall  sound from the staGE.


I am not against to try multichannel but I do not feel a NEED for multichannel Sound and for the whole notion of surround channels.Sure it might be implemented and it might add some special illusions but I honestly do not feel that this illusion is truly essential or even beneficial.
Stereo is also an illusion of a forward facing three dimensional space produced by two speakers. Also, I agree that just like in the 50's when stereo overcame mono, it takes an aural adjustment for one to become accustomed to surround information. Jut like some people don't need stereo over mono, some will prefer true stereo over true multi-channel.


 so I have very little of any expectation to the industry crooks. I know that they would fuck up whatever they are able to fuck up….

You are using the old argument that because some engineers do things to recordings means that the the process itself is defective. Multi-channel is the direct improved descendant of stereo as stereo is of mono, and if done properly and to high end standards, just like with stereo, will only allow a purer and more natural reproduction of the concert venue.  
09-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 32
Post ID: 16997
Reply to: 16996
2-Channel "Stereo"
fiogf49gjkf0d
Let's face it, guys, most recordings are mixed down from multiple microphones and tracks, whether 5-channel or so-called 2-channel stereo.  It is the exception rather than the rule if there is a direct correspondence between microphones, placement, etc. and "intended" playback channels.  And even in these cases there is no guarantee that the results will be any good.  Who knows how anything was or is archived, mastered, re-mastered or dubbed?  More and more analog archives have been digitized, that's for certain.

I haven't really looked all that carefully, but I have been under the impression that, for better or for worse, most of the opera DVDs have been made with 5.1 HT in mind.  Is this correct?  Does this make it easier or otherwise "better" to use 5.1 playback?  Either way, ""the source", per se, is probably a rather remote consideration, so it is really a matter of suffering the fewest contortions to achieve the objectives, such as they are.

Best regards,
Paul S
09-14-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 17009
Reply to: 14568
My Pussy has approved my Opera Room
fiogf49gjkf0d
As I told you that side effect of my Video Room project turned out that I changed my mindset from hating that room and considering it as a worthless in the house to the sadden admiration of the room.  No I do not watch videos in there but I just turn out enjoy to spend time in the room with the no projector and no video.  The biggest surprised I got today: my Koshka demonstrated to me that she for the first time she lives in this house liked the room as well. 

Koshka is 20 years old and she has a lot of attitude regarding what she like and what she does not. I learned from her a lot, God bless her. There are places in the house she loves and the places she hates or ignore. For the year and a half we live with her in this house she never even walk in the Opera Room unless the fireplace was on. Today I was looking her around the home and was able to find her. I went to the video room and here she was, sleeping, lying on the floor with her legs up and with her head turned way back. This is VERY vulnerable pose for Cats and if Cats allow themselves to do it then it is an indication of complete comfort and absolute trust to environment. Koshka has adopted my new Video Room. It might sounds idiotic to you but it is the greatest and the most pleasurable compliment to me.

Koshka_in_new_vidio_room.jpg

Rgs, Romy the Cat
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 17189
Reply to: 17009
The opera room machine.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I understand that with my desire to have 2-chanals instead of 34.6 channels for my video room I am bit off the bitten path but it is what it is. I am comfortable with what it is and as time goes by I more and more form my objective and my interest in my video room.

I am OK with what it is with exception of two moments: I have no remote control for sound and I the system a bit too big. I have way too exercise power amplifier B2 for my speakers, I have a CD/DVD/BlueRay player (older model Oppo) that I ether ether to return or buy, I have preamp with no remote control option, I have tuner with no modulations meter… all of this mean a few components with necessary complexity…
What I would like is to have one single machine that would:

1) Play any disk, including the files from wifi or network
2) Have OK 2ch DAC onboard
3) Have 2-3 RCA inputs in preamp mode
4) Have some kind of tuner with DX option onboard
5) Have analog volume control and remote lit control
6) Have analog tone (HF and LF) controls
7) Have modulation meters on front panel
8) Have ability to save a few stations in memory
9) Have 10W-40W amplifiers onboard
10) Have high compliance transport onboard with FAST reaction time
11) Cost under $1000
12) Have more or less acceptable sound.

I am absolutely not familiar with what is out there. If any of you have seen such a machine then let me know.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 17193
Reply to: 17189
Let me know what you find...
fiogf49gjkf0d
...but I don't hold out much hope. Especially with the mod meters! You might get most everything in a pair of packages tho'. But you should also look for preamp-out RCAs.

By the way, last time I was there you had a JVC projector too...

clark

PS Totally agree about two channels, quite good enough for any decent TV and movie.
10-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 112
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 36
Post ID: 17194
Reply to: 17193
Wonder machine
fiogf49gjkf0d
Let's see if I can magically produce a cd-dvd-preamp-remote volume conntrol-equalizer-wifi-d/a-save stations-and cost under $1000. And it will even tune in TV stations, record them, FM and internet files and even do a/d encoding up to 24/192.
 Can't believe you haven't thought of this. How about a PC with a sound card, such as Jul@, which can be single ended or balanced, a tv-fm tuner card  for broadcasts and let those Melquides amps sitting next to your speakers do the amplidication. You even already have the playback and record software and may even have a spare computer sitting around.
You've been over here and listened and watched mine.

Bill
10-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 37
Post ID: 17198
Reply to: 17194
A business opportunity for someone….
fiogf49gjkf0d
Oh, no, I’m absolutely not going to go to this route.  I absolutely certainly do not want to have any vacuum tubes in there, not kneeboard and mouse, no recording options, not switching or commutating, it need to have one single button to tune of and off,  It has to be SS and I prefer do not turn it even off at all. It need to perform at the level of table radio (that is not necessary bad). I can live with no modulation meters as if I has line out then I can run my external meters… The sad thing is that it looks like there is no CD/DVD/BluRay players with built-in power amps. So, we are taking about the idea to combine a regular mid-fi audio receiver (like Outlaw does) with a universal player. I have no idea why no one (as it looks like) does it.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-29-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 17254
Reply to: 16984
Surviving Nor'easter…
fiogf49gjkf0d
We in Boston are hit this weekend with a mean Nor'easter storm with wind, rain and show. They promises a feet or so and it is juts October…. I am having great time, secluding myself in my video room, lighting up fireplace, smoking my Cohiba, playing a lot of string quartets and looking how the world is draining to oblivion. If it goes like this then I would probably want a bit better sound in this room. I see the point somebody advise me to use bug vacuum tube in my fireplace room, it does go along well with the room mood…

Fireplace_room_12.JPG

Fireplace_room_13.JPG

Fireplace_room_14.JPG

Rgs,
Romy the CaT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-30-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 39
Post ID: 17258
Reply to: 17254
Good electricity days
fiogf49gjkf0d
I thought you would be freezing with the big system enjoying great sound,  and maybe solving the mistery of good electricity and freezing weather!

Have a great time!
12-19-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 40
Post ID: 17546
Reply to: 17254
Magic!
fiogf49gjkf0d
My Cat truly lives on her own. She never comes to me when I call her. She always does whatever she wants. She always wants something different from what I want. I am with her since she was 6 days old She teaches me to live soon to be 21 years and I am truly  praise that this beautiful creature blessed me by letting share her live with me.

Sometime she hides in house and I spend 10-15 minutes to search for her. I call it “Koshka’s witness protection mode”, we both enjoy it tremendously. If she is not in my view she show up only when she wants, in a way how she wants and although we live together for a long time and have million conventional behaviors but she never makes the same appearance twice. She always unique and always has in her appearance the beautiful, possessed only by her twist. I love it is death and she know it.

There is however one amassing thing that we developed juts recently that I praise more than Christians praise their cross.

There is that moment when I do not know where she is and I do not particularly need her at the moment. It is cold outside. It is late evening. I go to my Opera Room and I light up my fireplace. I take my large buckwheat chair and place it right in front of fireplace. I lay in my super comfortable buckwheat chair and I stretch my bare feet toward to the fire. I take a remote control and push “Play” with any dark  and slow music. The room is dark, even black. I see only a fire in front of me and the rest of the world stops to exist. With my right rand I reach a box of Cohabas, lighter and light up my cigar. I close my eyes. I take with my right hand cigar out of mouth stretch arms wide open, floating in my no-gravity chair. As soon my left arm reach it’s maximum extension my left palm feels one single, very soft touch of the very end of my Koshka’s tail. She always there, not juts she is there but she is there with millimeter precision, holding her tail up,  just to tell me that she is there to care me and to support me through my life.

Only Cats…

Koshka_Before_Rack.JPG

Me.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-19-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005

Post #: 41
Post ID: 17547
Reply to: 17546
A long life to both of you
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is a story I love. I have been equally fortunate to have a cat girl friend, once in my life. She is no longer anywhere but in my memory and I miss her touch and her concern....

Bud
02-13-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 17830
Reply to: 14568
How I shot myself in tail.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Last week a local audio guy come to my place to listed some music and I played to him my Wand’s Bruckner 4 in video room. With all “phenominality” of the performance I need to confess that sound was horrible. The guy did not complain, so I did not stress it as well. Later on I show to him some other video material and I found that I hardly understood a regular speech from the screen. So, what did I changed?

I did a change and I did not listen my video room since then. Last week I did it with my visitor, so I did yesterday, so I immensely hate the sound I’m getting got now. So, what did I changed? I change whole amplification.

The key was my laziness – I wanted to have a remote control for my video system, can you blame me” Formerly I used Yamaha C2 preamp with Yamaha B2 power amp. Adding 1.5dB on preamp’s tone control bass I did have OK sound (for video) driving my video speakers, whatever they are. Then I decided that since the amplification is crap anyhow then why I don’t I get identically bad consumer receiver and driver my video room with a comfortable remote consol?

Sounds reasonable, doesn’t it? So, this was what I did – bough off eBay $70 Sony stereo receiver, got rid of my high-endish Yamaha from 70s and put the contemporary crap in use. Holy shit, I never thought that it might be so bad!!! I understand that it is video and I do not need to have good sound but what I end up was beyond any acceptance. I can put the Yamaha B2 power amp back to the service but I can’t use the OPPO digital volume control – it kills sound faster then Ebola virus.

So, kids do not let kids to use those cheep consumer audio…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-14-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 43
Post ID: 17838
Reply to: 17830
Guy responds
fiogf49gjkf0d
Speaking as a local audio guy... yeah the sound was poor but who knows?... whether it was the dvd?... the electronics?... the day? Plus it was Room #2, so...

My policy, perhaps mistaken, in such a situation, is to enjoy the music.

As to the OPPO, I'd leave it full-open and the Yamaha set at the most usual listening level, then trim it down from there as necessary and use the OPPO for fading.

At home I enjoy having great video sound and use my big system.

clark
03-18-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 17982
Reply to: 17830
It is intolerable and it is time to roll back…
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Last week a local audio guy come to my place to listed some music and I played to him my Wand’s Bruckner 4 in video room. With all “phenominality” of the performance I need to confess that sound was horrible. The guy did not complain, so I did not stress it as well. Later on I show to him some other video material and I found that I hardly understood a regular speech from the screen. So, what did I changed?

I did a change and I did not listen my video room since then. Last week I did it with my visitor, so I did yesterday, so I immensely hate the sound I’m getting got now. So, what did I changed? I change whole amplification.

The key was my laziness – I wanted to have a remote control for my video system, can you blame me” Formerly I used Yamaha C2 preamp with Yamaha B2 power amp. Adding 1.5dB on preamp’s tone control bass I did have OK sound (for video) driving my video speakers, whatever they are. Then I decided that since the amplification is crap anyhow then why I don’t I get identically bad consumer receiver and driver my video room with a comfortable remote consol?

Sounds reasonable, doesn’t it? So, this was what I did – bough off eBay $70 Sony stereo receiver, got rid of my high-endish Yamaha from 70s and put the contemporary crap in use. Holy shit, I never thought that it might be so bad!!! I understand that it is video and I do not need to have good sound but what I end up was beyond any acceptance. I can put the Yamaha B2 power amp back to the service but I can’t use the OPPO digital volume control – it kills sound faster then Ebola virus.

So, kids do not let kids to use those cheep consumer audio…

This week on Thursday and Friday I had two “audio visitors” in my listening room. We did some listening and as it have become customary: they asked me to show something “interesting” or different in my Opera Room. BTW, for whatever reasons people do love my Opera room decor tremendously, so do I.

So, I was playing some “interesting” fragments to my visitor and was shocked how horrible the sound was. The consumer $70 worth receiver that I am using is rater at 100W but I clearly hear horrible clipping at I would say 90dB in bass. The whole sound was so flat and “in your face” that I made the decision to return back to my Yamaha B2 configuration. Even in context of low-demand video sound the crap that this consumer receiver out is too devastating. Now I need to look for preamp with properly implemented tone controls and remote, sucks!

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-19-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 45
Post ID: 17983
Reply to: 17982
Speaker mismatch I am sure
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy consider that the engineers who did your Altecs in their worst nightmare could not imagine their lovely cinema speakers would be used with solid state amplifier which badly distorts on LOW power levels. It has 100 crappy watts and the first watt is the crappiest.



http://hifiblog.livejournal.com/
03-19-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 17984
Reply to: 17983
Beyond of anything acceptable.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Serge wrote:
Romy consider that the engineers who did your Altecs in their worst nightmare could not imagine their lovely cinema speakers would be used with solid state amplifier which badly distorts on LOW power levels. It has 100 crappy watts and the first watt is the crappiest.

Sergey, I think that Altec engineers exactly meant their cinema speakers to be used with solid state amplifier and yes, all of the economical A/B amps do badly distort the low power levels. The Altec 19 bass mode do not do well with tube amp and they do need 100 and up of very high current power to drive them. Moreover, I did EQ the signal in my preamp in order to get anything resembling to “an interesting” bass. I think it is not about the topology of am but the quality of the given specific amp. It is so bad that I can’t not even start to describe it. When I turn news radio in my Opera room then I do not recognize the voices of the newscasters. The voices are so distorted and so mudded up that I even sometimes do not clearly understand what they say. It is just horrible horrible amp, I did not even knew that something like this ever exist.  I do not have any bad attitude toward table radio playback but I  this amp is way beyond of anything acceptable.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-20-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 47
Post ID: 17986
Reply to: 17983
Operatic Doldrums
fiogf49gjkf0d
Serge, it is a common misconception that the old Altec cinema/PA systems were lovingly built and installed with tubes or high-fidelity "music playback" in mind.  In fact, they were meant to be LOUD and durable sound reinforcement tools, while maintaining an "acceptable" level of fidelity to the source.  As part of Altec's goals for as little maintenance as possible (and louder sound...), early tube-driven speaker systems were mostly retro-fitted with SS amps as soon as they became available, and/or the oldest drivers/speakers that could not take the extra power were re-built or replaced. You may regard it as ironic, but the early Altec SS "theater" amps were always among the most powerful available at any given point in time.

Of course, there are plenty of real Altec historians out there to tell us the way things were.  I am just saying that these speakers do, in fact, require a serious kick in the pants to make them attempt "FR".  Altec themselves well knew it, and if they ever worried about it or looked back to tubes, I never saw any signs of it.


Best regards,
Paul S
03-21-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 48
Post ID: 17987
Reply to: 17982
The things will be much better.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:
This week on Thursday and Friday I had two “audio visitors” in my listening room. We did some listening and as it have become customary: they asked me to show something “interesting” or different in my Opera Room. BTW, for whatever reasons people do love my Opera room decor tremendously, so do I. So, I was playing some “interesting” fragments to my visitor and was shocked how horrible the sound was. The consumer $70 worth receiver that I am using is rater at 100W but I clearly hear horrible clipping at I would say 90dB in bass. The whole sound was so flat and “in your face” that I made the decision to return back to my Yamaha B2 configuration. Even in context of low-demand video sound the crap that this consumer receiver out is too devastating. Now I need to look for preamp with properly implemented tone controls and remote, sucks!
I took my second virgin B2 amp and performed on it the same Harakiri as I did with the B2 driving my HLF channel: put the proper I/O connectors, disconnected the all dilapidating and horribly sounding commutation boards, volume controls and anything else in this amp. It means if you look at the B2 amp:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/PDF/YamahaB2_Circuit.PDF

… that the signal goes directly from input to the grid of the first transistor on the drive circuit board,  bypassing two board on the left. I kind of like this amp driving the Model 19 bass module while EQe. It does not give the proper bass but it gives not annoying bass for video room. Sure, during my fireplace sessions I do not do video and play 2-ch music and here is where the absence of the horrible Model 19 HF module really pays off but I do not think that I will consider other amplification after putting BS back to the business. Not that I feel that B2 is great but it is fine for what THAT room does and meant to do.

As today is Bach birthday my friend and I are planning some listening sessions in opera room – with fireplace and candle light… the whole Bach setting.  It is a bit scare that we have today 80s in Boston, so our fireplace plane for this weekend might be a bit questionable…. Still, I am sure that today I will put B2 back to drive my Cetla 91 and the things will be much better.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-21-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 49
Post ID: 18199
Reply to: 14568
Audio envy.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Stopped by at local audio friend this Sunday and watch some Brunner, Mahler and Wagner at his HT playback. He has integrated playback installation and video is played at his main system. I am not a fan of good quality of  video playback and feel that my cheep Cetla 91 goes good enough to play video but I have to admit that there WAS some added value in his demonstration. I was not impressed by 5-ch sound (am long-standing not supporter of it) and with a few other aspects but for all intended purposes as Wand’s brass blew up during Bruckner 4 then it was very clear that my friend playback presented different definition of gravitas than my Opera Room able to. I have experienced something like audio envy and I said to myself that I want it to be in my home like this.
 
At this point I do not know what I will be doing. I might try to drive Cetla 91 with a full-range Milq or multi-amp it with Milq and B2. For sure the key in it is that I have no midbass or upperbass channels in Cetla and I am not exactly willing to make them. So, I wonder if I might come up with some kind of solution that would be easy to implement and deliver a sufficient impact. I do think that if I drive Cetla’s MF from SET then it might be more fun, let see how it goes….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-21-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 50
Post ID: 18200
Reply to: 18199
Easy
fiogf49gjkf0d
Sure the 5.1 is not by itself so great, but is it "better" to fight with that pre-existing HT-type system for opera?  Maybe just relax and present the opera playback +/- the way the "engineers" had it in mind when they laid down the tracks.  Anyway, more drivers make more sound, if that's what you're after.

Best regards,
Paul S
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