Paul S wrote:

If you said anything about your 15" VitaVox in the video, I must  have missed it. What frequency range are you running them, and what is low-pass filter? Given your prejudices, I suppose the cabinets are sealed, so they can't go too deep? Are you using Milq to drive them? If so, how do you load 6C33Cs? I suppose that's the last leg before the IBs, so it would have to be working pretty well? .

Paul S wrote:

Of course I agree, the 500 lb. gorilla is definitely space, all right. With the cost and complexity of Trinnov, not to mention the need for related Musical program material, I doubt I will ever get anything that serious integrated in my own system. Fun to follow You and Bill, however, as you learn from each other. It will also be illuminating to find out how much Music there is to be extracted from existing home theater programing.

Nothing like Musical results to prove audio concepts. It sounds about right but not exactly. I don't think results are musical. Music itself is just a media to convey via our sensory more higher aesthetical ethical and to a certain degree conscious self-reflective experiences. Musicians do they are the tool available in is there exposures and they have truly immense amount of possibilities and capacities. In audio video this exceptional and narrow set of interfaces that we use as expressive tools where we very moderately emphasize or subdue certain elements of performance. Elsa, and it is frequently overlooked things in audio, we do not listen music of performances in our listening rooms. We're here the efforts of our playbacks to reproduce it and that is very very different things. I never agree with people who feel that they try at home reproduce the same sounds they heard during live performances. I found this objective is completely silly. Over the years I'm preaching to my side that during live performances we do not hear sound. We acknowledge our perception of sound and let our mind and spirit to go alone with this. There is a school of thinking which suggests that if we imitate identical sound during playback then our mind and spirit will experience the same journey. I never subscribed this belief. I recognize live sound and playback sound are completely different forces. Yes they have the same payload and have the same music but the impact methods are slightly different. 

Make a simple experiment. Play your single loudspeaker, whatever it is. And take a piece of cardboard like 20 by 20 in, place it behind one of your ear and extend of your arm and trying to find a location when you have in-phase reflection caught by your ear. Soon on a later you will have almost like a hit in your head when suddenly phases align and you suddenly begin to experience multi-dimensional effect. You clearly will acknowledge but you're listening consciousness that it is a huge impact upon you but it will be no musical event. It will be an event purely upon your listening consciousness. In audio, we have many many many many many many tools available in our disposal to do two different things. First is to remove from playback sound different alien forces which come from horrible operations at our electron mechanical conversion of sound waves usually brings to the listening process. And the second one is to modulate very explicit psycho acoustical impacts to a listener but applying our deliberate and well positioned listening algorithms. If all of its subordinated with you're listening creative objectives then it is where truly high end audio is truly begin. The keyword in all of us is creative. Most of the people who believe who practice high and are there they are not active creators of musical experiences. They are trying to entertain themselves with different sounds trying to recuperate on return for investment. There is nothing wrong with that. It is better than shoot cocaine and drink vodka. However, those people because they do not want to create new listening consciousness they do not have any creative result. There are some people out there who do actively investigate own mind and all listening perception in respect two actions of on hands by moving those damn speakers and changing cable elevators. Those people practice completely different audio and listening there probablys is always superbly interesting, regardless how good or bad they are playback sounds. Listening those playbacks is like a read somebody diaries. Over my entire audio life I have only two people who ever came to my listening room, listened it, and that playback did not sound well is that specific vintage, then look at me and told me I know what you are trying to do. One of them is dead now. 

So, what I am saying that it is highly possible that the effect that I discovered might open a Pandora box to a new expressive tool. I don't have a name for this but let's forsake of conversation call it overly precise mid base modulation.. I do not know what in my mid-base might so huge difference. It is volume, is it tone, is it contrast, is it integration aspects. The impact is there and I would be very curious to learn why it's happening.

I put kids to bed and was listening at night at low level. The idea which was spinning in my head was the following. Okay I have good result but why and what does it mean? Was it a precise mid bass dialing to the rest of my system, to my ulf channel, to my specific listening room or it was all together projected to that specific amplification loading? I actually I have no answer. 

Another very interesting idea that percolated my mind was a relationship between speed of midbass and density of midbass. Let's take the best mid bass I heard outside of what I do and outside of horns domain. The honor would go to large Wilsons driven by first generation of Lamm ML2. It is important to know that it should be large Wilson, starting from Grand Slams, the small Wilsons are not interesting. I did not hear newest large Wilsons but I heard Alexandria with ML2, supposedly properly installed by Wilsons own people. If we discard lower base which is absolutely not appropriate for this price range they did superbly interesting job in mid base. It was super high contrast, surprisingly dynamic for low 90's dB sensitivity. However even then, without knowing what I know now, I detected that this spectacular mid base was always spectacular. It sounded like each orchestra get converted  into Chicago under Sir Georg Solti and each piece of music was flooded with overly errected brass. It was very impressive but in the end of the day it was still on algorithmic signature ever present in music.

Even then, and it was years back I was wondering how to able to teach watch Wilson's to be able to play mid-bass. I think I wrote about it at my website many years ago. Most of the midbass out there are just tubby single monochronic note. Wilsons did something remarkable introducing contrast and dynamics of mid base in thier large models. I have absolutely no idea how they did it but they did. Since it is always have this super impressive character I presume that they super idel driver via a crossover. In my topologist since I have active amplification to each channel I am able to make loading of the driver more accurately, permitting it be able to play slow if music calls upon it. Also, in my situations at twins of my 15-in Vitavoxes complemented above this my upper base horn. Does it have anything to do with anything? 

Now it is important note. To properly research. To get proper answer to all those questions and to convert an accidental success to organized theory how mid-passing playback should function is a matter of couple years research and experiments. It is certainly not what I am trying to do. Also, it is important to note that I did not use any methodology proper methods to navigate my efforts. Even now I refuse to make an elementary frequency sweep of my playback. I certainly will but at this point I do not want it to de:rail my thinking. That new characteristics of midwives density, the impact and the importance of it in a playback configuration come as a purely accidental discovery. The most important is to understand that since it is accidental Discovery I do not proclaim that the result I got the best implementation of midbass density as a concept. I just do not know at this point. I have the result but what this result mean it is still not clear to me.

anthony wrote:

Both UB Horn roll off circa 130Hz in room.  There are a couple of rough MDF boxes here that I knocked up from spare sheet a while back.  Have not tested them specifically at the intended spot behind me but running around with a microphone shows those problem frequencies high at that location.  Probably need to get no lower than 40-50Hz with the midbass so was planning on using the Injection Channel from Melquiades and the Lundahl transformer, at least to start.  We will see.  The guy that wound my bass channel transformer is no longer doing it so if I go custom it will be with someone new (to me).

Romy the Cat wrote:

1)    Since you use the injection channel, stop using it. The injection channel was a ridiculous idea with exceptionally beneficial results, but now I have found it better. You have two Tannoy Red 10 drivers. Use the HF section of them as tweeters. You will be very surprised how beautifully they work as twitters in the context of S2 drivers as a mid-range. You can drive it from your Milq’s injection channel or change the transformer on your Milq’s HF channel.  It still will be an injection as I recommend crossing it with the second order between 1800 and 3000 cycles. So, the S2 driver and the Tannoy tweeter will work together.  All unpleasantness off Tannoy Twitter that we know from the sound of complete Tannoy red drivers will not manifest itself. The Red will not need an enclosure. I however built a small box because it just looks ugly when they hang along. When I have time, I will ask my mechanic to cut off the low-frequency basket for Tannoy. It will undoubtedly demagnetize the magnet, so it will be a ceremony to put it all the way back together. I will also need my Macondo frame modification to accommodate the driver. For the time being, a small box was a quick and convenient solution. Also, I do not know if the Tannoy Twitter will change its own sonic signature without this large woofer cone acting as a small rate horn.

Romy the Cat wrote:

2)    Do introduce educated direct radiator mid base channel. If you convert your high frequency channel to drive Tannoy Twitter, then you have the injection channel of your amplifier free to drive your new midbass. You will need a lot of power and a lot inductance in your transformer for midbass. I feel that Milq’s bass is a perfect candidate. After you introduce midbass you will certainly change how you use your woofer towers. I can only assure you that if you cross them at let's 20-30 Hz put them on a transitional slope, and let your mid base to cover down to 40-50 cycles, then you will have a completely new sound from the Scanspeaks

anthony wrote:

....but....sometimes I do wish for a less "white" sound up top.  More colour, or perhaps contrast, not that anybody could ever accuse my sound as lacking any of those things.

anthony wrote:

I am sure that correcting my midbass will change how I interpret the HF channel, but I am not certain exactly whether it will be perceived as more or less "white".  In the past, with other speakers, when resolution of the bass has been improved I have generally appreciated the high frequencies more but I am not so sure this time.  Melquiades/Macondo is different, and my instinct here is that as I improve the quality and quantity of bass in my room that I may appreciate my HF less, and it has almost been an excuse to follow interests other than audio for a while.  The energy and will to experiment and create in this endeavour has returned and it is time to once and for all finalise my bass in this room.

Romy the Cat wrote:

large Wilsons driven by first generation of Lamm ML2. It is important to know that it should be large Wilson, starting from Grand Slams, the small Wilsons are not interesting. I did not hear newest large Wilsons but I heard Alexandria with ML2, supposedly properly installed by Wilsons own people. If we discard lower base which is absolutely not appropriate for this price range they did superbly interesting job in mid base. It was super high contrast, surprisingly dynamic for low 90's dB sensitivity. However even then, without knowing what I know now, I detected that this spectacular mid base was always spectacular. It sounded like each orchestra get converted  into Chicago under Sir Georg Solti and each piece of music was flooded with overly errected brass. It was very impressive but in the end of the day it was still on algorithmic signature ever present in music.