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03-25-2005 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 804
Reply to: 804
Problems with horns: upper bass

malonetta pris

malonetta acne malonrabat.site malonetta pris

This there is the last in the “THE PROBLEMS WITH HORNS” cycle. The previous threads might be found at:

Problems with horns: tweeters.
Problems with horns: mid-range horns.
Problems with horns: mid-range drivers.

This would be probably the most controversial and the most complicated article form “The problems with horns” cycle. Really, the middbas horns is a very complex subject where is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO MAKE ANY GENERALIZATIONS. First of all let define the middbas. For the sake of this article I would call middbas the frequencies from 45-50H and up. There are reasons why I would not define the upper threshold of middbas and you will understand further why. Also, it is important to understand that I do not really believe into a practical lower-bass reproduction by horns and there are many reasons why.

OK, the upper bass channel of your playback. I always say: “Show to me your middbas solution and I will tell you how your playback sounds”. I do not kid about it. The middbas is the most difficult, complicated but the MOST IMPORTANT RANGE of any playback and if you have a dedicated middbas channel then you better really take care about it because it will be a foundation of your entire system. If you do not have a dedicated middbas channel then it is most little that you have no good middbas, at list it was my experience with quite a number of playback systems to which I was exposed. A middbas channel sets up a framework, the skeleton of entire sound of your system. 99% of all bad sounding systems sound bad primary because thier major problems within middbas region. Would be too much to say that the middbas is the very first thing that I listen when I face any new system?

Well, the middbas DOES NOT REALLY EXIST in live music, however within reproduces music there is deficiency of middbas and there is a wrongly-made middbas. This is the key: to make the middbas “to sound” but at the same time to make it completely “unsoundable”. Does it sound like foolishness to you? Not really. The foolishness is how middbas sound within a typical audiophile system – wherever I heard it has a sounded of retroaction efforts instead of the “unsoundable” middbas. Also, there is such a concept as ”amplitude of the unsoundable middbas” – if it is not enough then it is not enough. Ironically there is no reveres situation and the “unsoundable middbas” can’t have too high amplitude.

 “ Ok, let stop to sing the “Ode to the Middbas” and let jump to some more or less practical discussion.

There are some fundamentally faulty sound reproduction methods that even theoretically can’t produce middbas. First of them would be so-called full range drivers. They idea of so-called full-range driver operation is so ridicules, so idiotic that it is no surprise the it has a lot of followers within audiophile community. They use the upper midrange drivers like Lowther, Fostex, Supravox, Jordan, LES, AER, PHY-HP and many other.

Fostex.jpg

They force those drivers to go down to the range where they have no business to operate and then back-load those drivers with some curved horns horn. All of those full-range/back-loaded speakers sound incredibly horrible. Let me to street it again: all of them!!! Those loudspeakers violate the first too rules of the “Commandments of Mandatory Middbas Compliance”:

1) A middbas driver shell handle at least one octave below it lower cut off frequency
2) A dipoleness shell not be used anywhere near a middbas channel

The next candidate for middbas reproduction would be all versions of the box-reflex design.  Everything in ported sound is wonderful accept the fact that the ported enclosures kill all sound under 700Hz -800Hz. The third rule of “Commandments of Mandatory Middbas Compliance” said:

3) You shell run away from a speaker if you see a port

Certainly the Third Commandment is a derivation form the Second Commandment not to mention the countless problems that attached specifically to the ported enclosures. It would be worth to mention that the systems with passive radiators are essentially the same ported systems and they are full under a jurisdiction of the Third Commandment.

Evan the very best of the ported designs with the price tag close $100K (the largest, Wilsons, JMLabs, Avalons and many others) does not do correct middbas. I have to admit that in some very-very-very-vary rare occasion a very good ported speaker when it was painstakingly and supportably anal retentively set up in a room then it might demonstrate some almost acceptable result. However, they do it only for a very-very small “middbas” zone (geometrically it might be juts a few inches in your room) and second: they are literally a few installations around the world (I mean: a few) where such a level precision of setting the speaker up was taken. Still, in the end of the day, those installations’ middbas does not sound as good as middbas might be.

The next candidate for middbas would be an opened baffle. I know that there are many-many people out there who would swear about the fanatic quality and countless (mostly simulated) benefits of opened baffle. Unfortunately I have to disappoint you (and disappoint myself –because I spent quite time to learn it). The opened baffle is a FUNDAMENTALLY FAULTY WAY TO HANDLE MIDDBAS and not only because it violate the Second Commandment. The opened baffle (or any dipoleness) removes seriousness form Music and converts Sound into a stressful agitation of air in a room. Yes, it sounds “attractive” and instantly gratificative but in a long run it is a dead end of middbas reproductive efforts.

The next group would be the direct radiators in sealed enclosures. This probably is the most advantageous group that is capable to do better then the mentioned before groups, however in the real practical world they do not do better. There are many reasons and many variables involved into a proper sealed middbas:

Selection of a driver, learning how to use the driver, learn how to integrate the driver with mid-range, creating a back-chamber that would be suitable for this driver and many-many others, pay attention that all the I said is too obvious but it is very complex. For instance any person can look at T/S data and to design correct enclose to the driver but it will have a little relation to Sound. It will certainly assure that the driver would operate in it’s not-completely faulty mode but this is juts a beginning. There is no know ways to project the “minuteness” of a driver performance and therefore the are no ways to get the driver into it’s operation point via extrapolating it. A driver should be tested and evaluated sonically and using some proper evaluating techniques with are practically not at the disposal of the speakers builders. Considering that: there are virtually no good mid-bass drivers out there in existence, people who know what T/S is are completely clawless about proper listening techniques, there are no objective Sound Assessing Methodologies (at least know widely) and many other factors i… t is understandable why there are practically no good sounding direct radiators middbas solutions. Also, for whatever reasons, the lower-middbas in a sealed, even severely under-dumped incisures, with the best drivers sounds different (quality-wise) then the upper-middbas. What I mean is that I nave not seen any full-range middbas channels the would do identically-well 60Hz and 400Hz. Probably this all caused by the fact that no one produces any good middbas drivers that mend to be use ONLY for middbas and as the result people are forced with use whatever inappropriate crap they were able to dig out.

Well, would it bee so difficult to foresee that we are approaching in our observation to the horn-loaded middbas?  Yes, the horn-middbas is the only middbas know to me that could be OK. There are countless ways to frond-load the drivers. Let talk about them and what result it might lead.

We all understand that when you go for middbas then the size of horn grow faster then the President Bush’s budget deficit and therefore folding of horns looks like the reasonable solution. Unfortunately the horn folding has a huge number of negative moments the defeat the purpose and in very many cases the good underhanged direct radiators sound better then folded horn. A folded horn IS NOT A HORN in but just a consecutive chain of resonant chambers where each following section impose to sound a set of own rules.

HoldedHorn.gif

It is similar to a person who does not hear his own speech but rather hear it as a translation form his own language to 5-6 different successive languages and then translated back to his own language. The each fold of a banged horn is a resonator that affects (screws) sound in own way and the all this mess get mixed and going out of the folded horn’s mouth. Also, each fold of the folded horn creates a HF roll-off and the harmonic content of sound after all those folds is kind of strange: it is always too dry. The more folds the stranger the HF knee and as the result, it is imposable to properly integrate the folded horn with an upper frequency channels. I think the problem in here that the type of the HF roll-off the takes place inside of the folded horn juts do not exist in a really world and we are not tuned to register it with out hearing. Therefore the folded horns always sound too much like an artificial sound reproductive effort not to mention numerous purely audio problems that folded horns introduce.

OK, we successful bitched about everything else and now we arrive to the straight, front-loaded upper bass horn. Fist thing first: from here and on I will be mention a chamber. Be advised that I will always be taking about the back-chamber of a horn. The front chambers, as it described in most of the incorrect horn literature, SHOULD NOT BE USED anywhere within horns. Most of literature form the mid of the last century that you probably read and that stressed the use of front chamber approach to horn design form a perspective of developing pressure but not from a prospective of development sound. Therefore some of thier observations are not applicable in case of high-fidelity home reproduction. Anyhow, if you driver too large and your throat too small (than might occur with middbas horn) and you have some kind of accidental front chamber in there then juts disregard it and move forward. Yes, keep it smaller but disregard it is have happened.

Eventually: The Problems with the midbass horns - the horns.

If with mid-frequency horns the profile is quite important, with the HF is fatefully important (up to the point of being mysterious) then with the middbas the horn the profile kind of less critical. Any exponential curve could work, even a straight conus but the entire horn should be deigned and used properly. The curve will dictate the geometry of the horn. The larger mouth = more LF, the smaller throat = longer horns, the longer horns the more sound get EQed down. The more Sound get EQ down the more “interesting” the horn loads the room. Each single horn (profile and size) will demonstrate own behavior regarding room coupling and there are NO WAYS to foretell the result, at least know to me ways. Some horn might work great in a corners, some would like to see one single boundaries, another would like to be placed in a middle of the room, or even lifted up form a floor…. and so on and so on… Do not forget that behavior of a middbas horn DO NOT exist  “as is” and without it being fully embraced by the sound of your room. Therefore to talk about a middbas horn within considering the room is a foolish thing to do – and as you understand to talk about a room we can infinitely.

Next is a rule: middbas horn should be massive, its walls (would it be a direct radiator horn or not-dipole corner-loaded horn) should be strong and as heavy and you can afford.  You can use the walls of the horn as a creative resonators but here you at your own as the result become completely unpredictable. 

Next: a horn might be spherical of rectangular. The spherical horns integrate better with high-range and image way better the thier rectangular brothers…. The middbas might run a full profile of its rate of to be truncated. It also might run a combinative profile and to start with one curve and continue with another. I have difficulty to propos that one way is better the other. I do not care about the theories but I never seen anyone built two huge horns with different curves and then able to properly evaluate the. Usually people build a horn (whatever the decided to do intellectually) and then use the result “as is” trying to get the best from whatever the horn does. Even if people do bult two identical horns with the different profiles then each of them would act different in the same room and therefore to say anything defiantly is tonally unnecessary. What I really hate is when people get an accidental result and than build artificial theories around those results. Unfortunately considering the complexity, size and the price of the manufacturing of the middbas horn and considering that each of them demonstrate its own behaves in each room I do not believe that there is an only “best way” to make an upper bass horn. Therefore this portions of “Problems with horns: is more liberated then all others.

The biggest problem that usually people face when they listen the middbas horn is that people tend to make the middbas horns too short. In the short horn the driver shot right through the horn and the LF go not “get loaded” with the horn mouth. For instance the JBL 4560 is a typical size middbas horn, the size that most of audio people use.

JBL4560.jpg


The 4560 would give you with a correct driver ~120Hz but it will be only 200Hz of horn loading and the rest below will run as a direct radiator. If you put in this type of enclose a driver with lover resonant frequency you get even lower response from it but it has no relation to horn loading. Most of the popular Altec horns are even shallower then the 4560. For instance audio people stick into the Altec 5-9 the 515B with Fs hear 20Hz and they happy to get “bass” out of this speakers. In reality the horn loading in there do not go lower then 200-250Hz and the rest is juts sound of mass-centric direct radiator driver boosted with a port.

My rule to detect that horn does is to analyze the EQ at lower frequency. For instance I use in my horn a driver that without baffle rolls-off somewhere at 650Hz or at 250 in a baffle and has Fs=86Hz (designed to be used at 400Hz-8Khz). This driver being placed into a horn get EQed down 120Hz anechoicly and ~100Hz in a room. This bass comes from the loading of the drive with horn not form the driver itself. However if you use a driver with Fs around 50s and that in open air has –3dB at 80Hz but in horn it has lower response at 120Hz then you did not bult a horn but just a God knows what. Also, the total gain of sensitively across the entire bandpass should be around (or not less then) 6dB (depends of the curve you selected). If you meet the criteria of EQ and sensitively gain then you have a horn-loaded middbas. If you do not then you have a direct radiator with some “wings” around the driver and that looks like a horn

Anyhow, to get better middbas horns we need to use sampler throat, no-stepped exponential curves (I personally use tractrix just because it is shorter. Longer horn = more sonic problems), larger mass, exploit to a driver with a higher resonant frequency and …the horn should be properly used in context of playback installation.

The Problems with midbass horns – the drivers.

OK, a paper driver for middbas should have as low as possible excursion, as high as possible sensitively, the Fs juts slightly less then the lower mouth cut off, somewhat lower as Q but it is not really necessary. All the rest rules do not work with the middbas drivers and that is no ways to find out how it will behave until you actually place it into your horn. Be advised the if you in a curved horn then you might use any crapy drivers you wish - it will be practically irrelevant for the result, you might use even 2-4 drivers in the compression chamber. However, if you use a single driver in a straight horn then the quality of sound of this drive become dominating. 

The dreamer of the drivers also might wary. Usually it is a good idea to use a larger diameter than the throat of horn as the larger drivers more likely to have more powerful magnetic structure. A driver should handle at least 2 octaves above your desirable HF cut-off. It might sound ridicules for you but the ability of you upper bass driver to handle MF is superbly important and it will huge responsible for how your midbass channel sounds and how it will be integrateable with your MF channel. Be advised that some drivers would “strangely” react to large indictors if you use a speaker-level crossover and the driver’s coil reactance would prevent you to roll-off the HF frequencies. The very best solution is to find a driver where the HF EQ of the smaller throat along with the longer horn would roll-off the driver’s HF without utilizing any low path crossover. Also, the long decal of the HF of middbas channel is not as bad thing as it might be with the direct radiators. In most of the cases (and practically when you do not drive your MF driver very hard into upper bass – that is always is desirable) you might do not use any low-pass filter with your midbass. 

It is highly desirable do not let the middbas driver to handle the LF that are beyond the mouth rate. By introducing a high path filter that would be one octave under the horn’s cut off would be substantially beneficial, and partiality if you use the Alnico magnets on your midbass. If you use the speaker-level crossovers then we are talking in here about really huge capacitor. Do not use plastic caps (Ansar, Solen and so on) but go for a tandem of electrolytics Nichicons with active biasing.  Be advised the unloading the LF from the horn will affect sound, even it is not miserable with your RTA. In some cases the combination between the increase the Fs via the back chamber and a certain LF unload might produce very-very interesting results: there is no universal rules in there, also each of your driver will react differently. There is not other ways to get it right without listening it. Also, the performance of your middbas would change hugely depend of what and how your LF channel used. Do not forget that you do not bult middbas channel but rather you shape sound in your room. As a starting point I would suggest getting RTA and ran a low knee slope from you listening position with a high resolution. Then introduce a cap (at the speaker level of at line level… where you use it) and find values of the cap where you detect that decrease of the cap for 5-10% would be visible as a measurable response (if you see anywhere +. 25dB then stop it as now the cap because stripper then the horn roll-off). Now, add 20% to the found value of the cup and it will be the value you need. It would not always be a calculated value as the 50Hz-100Hz your driver would most likely have a near Fs impedance fluctuation.

The Problems with midbass horns – the chamber.
 
A middbas horn should have sealed back chamber in order do not violate the Second Commandments, period. An open chamber, even a small leak, injects into room all negative attributes of dipoleness and in addition it would make the horn aware about all imaginary boundaries of room and it will be in the way that would be more aggressive then opened baffle.

Make the back chamber bid and strong. Big is necessary to be able to pace inside all imaginary drivers size and strong because it will have a huge pressure in there. Brace back chamber with metal from tanks if you need but it should be overbuilt. Eventually your chamber will be very-very small and you will need to fill the chamber with some filler (not damper but filler) but it always easy to fill the chamber with bricks then to realize that if you had 1/8” more then you would be able to try a new kinky driver that you juts picked form eBay. If you know that you have the driver that you will not change then you certainly might go for a small chamber initially.

The correct size of the chamber would be when the Fs of your driver would be near the mouth rate and it would cancel the throat reactance. However it is just a theory and in the real would it might not necessary work. The throat reactance would be different with the different curves because the different values of the air in the horn’s bell. By staffing the chamber and increasing the Fs of the driver you will VERY aggressively would change the way how your horn sound. The different profiles would behave different. Also all of it would greatly depend from the way in which the LF and MF channels joint the sound of your midbass. I do not know any other ways then to listen it. A properly sounding midbass horn should reproduces piano perfectly and should not expirees any problems to listen piano with juts the upper bass horn for days or weeks. If you have any musical problems with the sound of piano with your midbass then fix the horn. Only after everything is perfect with midbass, ONLY THEN, you might introduce the complimentary MF and LF channels. DO NOT FIX WITH MF AND LF CHANNELS THE IMPERFECTIONS OF YOU MIDBASS HORN – this is imperative.

There are some people out there who use middbas compression drivers with midbass. Do not go there under any circumstances. The existing park of compression drives and some of them can go down to 150H are not good candidates for your middbas channels. Remember that your driver MUST be able to handle at least an octave below the LF cut-off. The use of compression drives for middbas do not lead to anything besides the to sonic disasters because you will be using a driver that it is already lifeless. Would you ask a prison who juts ran a Marathon to make a pubic speech? I do not think so… So, let a person to breathe and let the compression drivers to operate where it meant to be.  If you want to know how the best compression drives sound in midbass horn then breathe out ALL air out of your lungs and count out-loud to 30-40 with frequency 2 count/sec. When you reach 15-20 pay attention to what happen with your voice – this is how the compression drives sound in midbass.

The only exception to ban of using the compression drives at midbass would use the compression driver were initially designed to operate at 30-50Hz. There are some drivers like this in Japan, quite expansive and exotic. I personally have no experience with them but I have some concern that they all use titanium diaphragms. I do not feel comfortable with at middbas. With middbas your cone must break up and the different segments of the cone should radiate the different shadows of the tones. I never had seen so far any metal-based cone operate properly at middbas but certainly to make a defiant collusion it should be properly evaluated – something that I did not do. Theoretically Evan a metal decagram might be impregnated into a soft suspension and I might work...  I’m sure that that the initially designed to be midbass compression drivers would do a wonderful pressure but I do not know if they would do a good Sound. I also, do not know anyone who would use them where I would be able to get reference points.

The Problems with midbass horns – the setting up.

The better bass horn loading comes with a reasonably smaller throat diameter and consequentially with the unfortunately-longer horn. The longer horn forces to introduce a time delay for HF channels because you most likely would not place the MF and HF horns near the location of the middbas horn’s throat (because of reflections). The delays at analog domain are big problem and particularly for HF. The digital delays are way simpler but I do not have a good experience to use them – they jut do not sound good to me (look for Horns and digital crossovers.) In some cases if to position the middbas horn and the rest of the channels as close as your real-estate allow and then would have some very minor deals left not taken care… and if you have a large room then you might live with it. The perfect time arriving is more critical in a nearfield and if you are 25-30 feet away then 2 mS might be not so auditable.. Certainly to build a shorter horn with large diameter of the throat is an easy solution that helps with the delays problem but you would lose in here some “horn-ness” of your horn. Anyhow, I always was able to hear the timing misalignment with any distance I personally reject any ability to have horns time not coherent.

If your middbas horn run over 500Hz then the mid-line of the horn should be perfectly aligned to the midranges mid-line. The way in which GOTO and some others alight the timing via angling the horn is a summit of horno-idiocy. If your horn is at sub-500H than you might play with aligning. But turning the forward radiating straight midbass horn off the soundstage, sometimes quite aggressively, you might get some extremely interesting result but be careful if your horns do into a lover midrange.

Generally the simple rectangular 70-100Hz horns with the throats of 6-9”, built around a regular 4-515G-like driver are very friendly to use, they are not large and the MF channel can be ingrate easily via positioning. They sound quite OK and very not-demanding on setup. The next level up is to go do for sampler throats, better drivers and not even-sided (5-7-9 sides) or a spherical horn.

Usually it is very unlikely that you get a probably made midbass horn to sound right the way in the way that it might. It passable but it requires s lot of experience with the subject. Generally if you get a midbass horn be prepare that it would take 1-2 moths init you figure out how to use your horn. However, when you set it up and bult your playback around it then you get sound that would be at very different level that anything else out there.

In the end: collect your upper bass sensations. Whenever you are search the opportunities to experience the sound of upper bass horns and if you find one that was properly designed, bult and used in context of it’s installation then you would experience an understanding that would be eyes-opening.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-25-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
slowmotion


Oslo, Norway
Posts 60
Joined on 07-22-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 806
Reply to: 804
Re: Problems with horns: upper bass
Hi all

Thanks for your thoughts, Romy.
In my view the least controversial of your “THE PROBLEMS WITH HORNS” cycle. Or, to put it another way, I agree with most of it.

I'm not so critical as you to open baffles for midbass, tho,
in fact I think they can be made to work quite well,
if one doesn't have the room for midbasshorns.

I am going to be away from the computer for a week,
I'll write my thoughts on the subject when I come back.

cheers, Jan



03-25-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kerry Brown
Posts 23
Joined on 03-22-2005

Post #: 3
Post ID: 807
Reply to: 806
Bass Horns and Tractrix vs. other Curves

Romy,

More to come soon but a couple comments regarding bass horns ( and one on Tractrix horns ) :

The Edgar Seismic subwoofer ( 18" JBL E155-4 hyperbolic-exponential folded horn, 40 Hz Fc ) works very well in my room - much better than the 1954 Klipschorns it replaced.

Yesterday a friend of mine brought over a CLIO analyzer and we graphed the impedance vs. frequency. I was surprised that the subhorn measures like a ported box tuned to 50 Hz !

Doesn't sound like typical ported bass though... as you know. I am very happy with low bass right now ( strong - though uneven - audible response to 15 Hz on the impedance test tones ).

We also measured the impedance response of my 100 Hz straight horns. Even though they are too short and the throat is too big, they DO measure like horns. No double hump. Throat reactance nulled, apparently, by the ( unfilled ) back chamber ( though I'm sure it could be ' fine tuned ' with bricks or whatnot.

I will forward the graphs if you like ( after my friend emails them to me ).

Regarding the Tractrix curve for HF horns ? I don't have your experience, but compared to other ( mostly PA style ) horns I have listened to they are much better. No other horn has imaged like my Tractrix horns ( in my room etc., etc. ). Not even close. And they all had audible distortion - all of them sounded raspy compared to my Tractrix horns - regardless of type.

Some of that may be better damping in my ( massive MDF ) horns, but it's mostly the geometry ( imho ). The old talk through the horn thing y'know.

Best Regards,

Kerry Brown
AKA KerrB
AKA Vintage Audio Trader
03-25-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 808
Reply to: 807
Re: Bass Horns and Tractrix vs. other Curves

 Kerry Brown wrote:
Yesterday a friend of mine brought over a CLIO analyzer and we graphed the impedance vs. frequency. I was surprised that the subhorn measures like a ported box tuned to 50 Hz !
Yes, this all is very explainable. The Bruce’s woofer is basically 40-45hz horn and he seized the 30Hz driver via a back chamber to make the primary resonance probably ~45Hz. Then he most likely introduced a fake 25-30Hz curve in the end of exponent and heavily electrically EQ the horn. I believe it has electrically EQed +20dB at 20Hz or something like this…
 Kerry Brown wrote:
We also measured the impedance response of my 100 Hz straight horns. Even though they are too short and the throat is too big, they DO measure like horns. No double hump.
Hm, I wonder how the measurement of impedance would make it “measured like horns”? :-)
 Kerry Brown wrote:
I will forward the graphs if you like ( after my friend emails them to me ). 
If you like then post it right here. The posting interface has an ability to upload the pictures. It would be fun to see. However, in order to understand how these horns work it would also necessary to know the respose of thier drivers in infinite baffle and thier horn-loaded repose.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-26-2005 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 809
Reply to: 806
Misery of the midbass baffles

 slowmotion wrote:
I'm not so critical as you to open baffles for midbass, tho, in fact I think they can be made to work quite well, if one doesn't have the room for midbasshorns.

You suggest that open baffles might be more successful in a small room. I would very much challenge this observation.  A time-aligned midbass horn can perform well in a room of a fraction of size that would be necessary for a midbass open baffle.

In order to make an open baffle do not short acoustically at midbass the size of the baffle should be quite considerable. Those large horizontal panels HUGELY screw up imaging of playback and destroy the quality of MF channels due to the curved-reflections (Courtesy to Klangfilm, Altec and few other). To deal with this problems the baffles should be in VERY large room and be heard form a VERY large distance. That creates a bunch of other problems and I therefore I consider the concept of large baffle as a dead-end approach.

Contrary to this a midbass horn is self-contained and the distance form that it could be listened varies only by the precision of time-alignment. If it perfectly time-coherent with the rest of the drivers then it might be used even from 8-9 feet of extreme nearfield. If some other integration techniques are employed  then it could be made work well even from 6-7 feet!!!  All of this perfectly allows a midbass horn to live in extremely small rooms; WAY SMALLER then would be necessary for baffles. 

Also do not forget that baffles decay in the room in the foolish-dipole manner, that makes very difficult to introduces any complimentary LF section. However, a midbass horn has no such a problem and it has very nice, LF-friendly and very civilized low knee slope…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-26-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
slowmotion


Oslo, Norway
Posts 60
Joined on 07-22-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 810
Reply to: 809
Re: Misery of the midbass baffles, or when reality bites

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Quick answer before I have to leave for the airport..........

Romy, I agree with you that horns is a better sounding solution,
for myself it's the only way to go.
But only if one have the room for real size midbasshorns.
A lot of people have to use their family room as listening room,
and then midbasshorns gets difficult.
IMHO open baffles is then a good solution for midbass,
certainly "better" sounding than vented boxes.
Don't forget that open baffles can be made in many different ways.
Gotta run.......

cheers , jan
03-26-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 811
Reply to: 810
Something like this? :-)
Jan, 

ironically it was exactly what I meant. For the people who use their family rooms as listening rooms (and it is the ONLY way to go) horns are quite nice architecture. I’ve seen some unspeakably attractive installations when horns made a beautiful decor of the rooms, so attractive that you actual were not able to acknowledge the existence of the horns. However I never saw large buffers that did not scream that they were loudspeakers. I know, I know… I king of spread the unnecessary horno-propaganda but it is sincerely what I feel...

Conneticut.jpg


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-26-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 812
Reply to: 811
I wish I had
half the size (in length and width, so actually a quarter the size in extension) of that room for my crappy system. For me that's not an average living room. Those horns would never fit mine, not even the Avantgarde duos would.

Regards.
03-26-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 813
Reply to: 812
Come on, Anthony I was testing you guys with this picture.

Those horns are in Connecticut’s 7th exit in a home of guy who has a privet river with own waterfall at his backyard. He could put 20Hz straight horn in his closet if he would know how…. :-)

Anyhow, I do not what to dive into this discussion as it would be out of the scope of the thread but the Avantgarde Duos that you mentioned, require at least 3-4 times larger room to be integrated then the Avantgarde Trios. One of the reasons why, because the Trios have an upper bass direct radiation horn…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-26-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 814
Reply to: 813
OK, I get it

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INTEGRATION that's the clue and that's what I always feel lacks in my room, I mean extreme integration, real integration, the feeling that the recorded bass sound has its own boundaries, not my room's. So you said, midbass horns?
OK, let's go. Drivers? what horn? where to buy it? how to do it if it's not available commercially made? we'll talk later about midrange ha ha ha ;-)

Regards.
03-26-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 815
Reply to: 814
Building a midbass horn...

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 Antonio J wrote:
INTEGRATION that's the clue and that's what I always feel lacks in my room, I mean extreme integration, real integration, the feeling that the recorded bass sound has its own boundaries, not my room's.

I do not completely agree with your definition of  “integration”. I meant the integration between the drivers not the integration in the room. To be specific I can comment how Avantgarde did it. They use 125Hz tractrix at midbass and ~350Hz tractrix at MF. They located them fairly close (still it might be way closer and result’ll be even better). The cones of the MF and LF are aligned. The “type of the sound” between the  MF and upperbass drivers is very much alike, not particularly the best but the obsolete quality is irreverent in here - the important thing that they have similar “type” of the sound. The LF low knee on the Avantgarde MF driver use 15uF first order filter against 8Ohm that make it 1300Hz eclectically.  Acoustically the MF channel (filter+horn) roles off at it’s bottom at ~800F with near second order. (BTW, they could make the MF horn twice smaller and get a lot of benefits form it) The upper knee of the midbass channel has 3H of first order against 8Oh that arrive approximately at eclectically 450Hz.  Acoustically the midbass has nice 1-2 order slope all the way to 1KHz. The midbass and MF are quite mutually penetrated each other, time-aliened, and with similar types of sound coming for each channel.  If you drop the MF channel 9” down than it would be even more coherent. I am not saying the there are no better ways to integrate the Avantgarde’s MF and Avantgarde’s upperbass but what they did in Trio was quite good enough.

 Antonio J wrote:
So you said, midbass horns? OK, let's go. Drivers? what horn? where to buy it? how to do it if it's not available commercially made? we'll talk later about midrange ha ha ha ;-)

Anatony, I do not know any midbass horns that industry produces. There are number of small shops that build them and I can name a number of then but you should worry about the shops and people that are closer to you and I do not think you want your horn to be shipped from US. I know there is a large community of French guys who do horns, perhaps you might contact them, and perhaps they could name some guys in Spain. All that you need is a building plan and a woodmaker who would listen you. This all might sound complex but in realty it is very simple for a person who knows how to build wood. I personally do not build horns, I experiment with them and I have somebody else who actually do the things and who possess all necessary knowledge about manufacturing process. I think if you have a popper ideas then it would not requite a super high skills woodmaker to build a simple and regular rectangular 80Hz horn… Perhaps even some of your local woodshops, if you become friends, would do it for you.  How complicated would be to build a lower horn from system?

BruceHorns.jpg

Image courtesy to “Vintage Audio Trader

I do not think that it would a problem at all.

Rgs,
Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-27-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 816
Reply to: 815
So the main issue

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would be finding midbass and midrange drivers with a similar character which allowed a good integration between them. Once I knew the drivers I might desing the horn (glubs, not so easy) and ask a skilled professional to build it for me, not impossible. The questions are, would it be cheaper than getting directly a pair of Avantgardes? Could I make that fit into my room? I know the Trios wouldn't, so I better get a bigger house, ha ha ha ha.

I'm afraid I can't allow myself serious sound here. I'll sell everything and keep my headphones, it will be cheaper, easier and quite satisfying anyway.

Regards.

PS: Romy, I'm sorry my posts cause you so much disconfort, feel free to delete them whenever you want. It's your site after all, and I'm only trying to learn and get useful information. Thanks anyway.

03-27-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kerry Brown
Posts 23
Joined on 03-22-2005

Post #: 13
Post ID: 818
Reply to: 816
Reply to " So the main issue "

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Antonio,

Bruce Edgar sells an excellent all front-loading horn system, the Titan, which works well in small rooms. He will sell you unfinished horns, and you can find/buy the drivers yourself if you are a DIY guy, or on a budget. Considering the current exchange rate, you could get a real good deal even with shipping.

The Titan is not a perfect speaker system ( you can tweak it endlessly ) but the performance/price ratio is very very good, compared to any other high performance speaker system ( I think the Edgar seismic subwoofer is the greatest bargain in audio ). Basically, Bruce is the only guy out there making/selling proper front-loading horn systems with high quality drivers... and the price is right ( regardless of ' high ' price quotes online etc. ).

IMO you should forget about Avantgarde. I am told their demos sound really good lately, but their prices are obscene.

I am a barbarian, of course, with unrefined taste, but my tweaked Edgarhorn system sounds very good ( to my uneducated ears/brain ) in my 17' x 15' room. I have a 10' semi-cathedral style ceiling which helps, but I think the horns would work even in small rooms with regular 8' flat ceilings.

The Titan mid bass/upper bass speakers are loaded by folded horns. I use Edgar's 100 Hz straight horns though, and I like them very much. They are too short and the throats are too big but they sound great.

Bruce says his folded upper bass horns work much better though - and he's usually right... he's almost always correct actually, in my experience. And he cares about doing things right... he's not laughing up his sleeve at suckers... like many " high end " designers/manufacturers. He's not a shark.

Kerry


03-27-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 820
Reply to: 818
Kerry, let look a very little more seriously.

 Kerry Brown wrote:
Bruce says his folded upper bass horns work much better though - and he's usually right...
Well, let do not contaminate ourselves with superficiality. If Bruce suggests that his folded upper bass horns works better then his straight horn, and if it is correct (do not forget the he said about his horns), then it means absolutely nothing.

Bruce’s midbass folded horns that he uses with Titans I believe have 2 curves and they are effectively longer then Bruce’s straight horn with the same mouth rate. So, if we have two horns of different distance with the same cut off then the folded horn should have smaller throat diameter. Consequentially the smaller throat diameter horn would be EQed lower and will loaded as “a horn” lower then the larger throat diameter horn. Also, the longer horn (presumably they run the same curve) should provide higher dB gain. Even if Bruce uses the same drivers and if he locks them at the same resonance frequency then because they are different length horns they are DIFFERENT HORNS. It is not a question that a folded upper bass horn works much better then straight but that that a longer upper bass horn with smaller throat performs better then a shorter one.

How to quantify and measure up the advantages of the longer horn/smaller throat with the disadvantages of a curved horn no one knows.

Rgs,
The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-27-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kerry Brown
Posts 23
Joined on 03-22-2005

Post #: 15
Post ID: 822
Reply to: 820
Re: Kerry, let look a very little more seriously.


Romy,

>If Bruce suggests that his folded upper bass horns works better then his straight horn, and if it is correct (do not forget the he said about his horns), then it means absolutely nothing.>

Dr. Edgar - who designed and hand made them - definitely knows more about those horns than anyone else. Since he's not a BS artist in any way... if he thinks his 80 Hz folded horn ( which does have a different driver... usually an EVM12 12" ) works better ( read ' works better in general ' ) it almost certainly does.

And that does - or at least should - mean something to anyone thinking about buying a horn system.

>Bruce’s midbass folded horns that he uses with Titans I believe have 2 curves and they are effectively longer then Bruce’s straight horn with the same mouth rate. So, if we have two horns of different distance with the same cut off then the folded horn should have smaller throat diameter. Consequentially the smaller throat diameter horn would be EQed lower and will loaded as “a horn” lower then the larger throat diameter horn. Also, the longer horn (presumably they run the same curve) should provide higher dB gain.<

All well and good but...

>Even if Bruce uses the same drivers> ( not ) >and if he locks them at the same resonance frequency> ( no ) >then because they are different length horns they are DIFFERENT HORNS.> ( yes )

... nobody ever said they were NOT different... for one thing the folded one is an 80 Hz horn, the straight horn has a 100 Hz Fc.

>It is not a question that a folded upper bass horn works much better then straight >

Who said it was ?

>but that that a longer upper bass horn with smaller throat performs better then a shorter one.>

I agree that longer horns with smaller throats are better bass horns, generally.

>How to quantify and measure up the advantages of the longer horn/smaller throat with the disadvantages of a curved horn no one knows.>

As we all know - including Bruce - the best horns are straight axis and full sized; the question really, is : What's ' better ' - in general, for most domestic listening rooms; a compact folded horn ? or a compact straight axis horn ?

I like straight horns. The only folded horn in my main system is the Edgar subwoofer ( and before that a pair of Khorns ).

However, since Bruce told me eye-to-eye that his folded 80 Hz horn was ' better ' ( read in general, for most people, in typical ( small to medium size ) home listening rooms ) I am inclined to believe him ( even though I would love to be wrong since I have invested a lot of money and energy in my 100 Hz horns ).

Anyways, my next project - if I can ever find somebody local with a 4-axis CNC router who won't charge me a fortune - is to make a 24" horn with a 1:2 throat.

Not that I am unhappy with the 100 Hz horns, just curious.

If I ever get those horns made, I will listen to ( and measure ) each type; in my own room, switching the three different sets of upper bass horn in and out of the same system.

Of course, what is ' best for me' is mainly what I am interested in determining, but I think the ( subjective and objective ) results of that ' test ' would also ' mean something ' to others.

Best Regards,

Kerry



03-27-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 16
Post ID: 823
Reply to: 822
Next project: better midbass

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Bruce told me last year that he started to manufacture 80Hz straight horns to replace his 80Hz. I was under impression that you refer to it.

Anyhow, if your midbass horn is fine then one of the most effective ways to get it even better is to reduce the order of the upper slope of your LF section, remove the crossover point as far form midbass as possible and time-alight the LF section. Certainly it wouldn’t be all achievable with Edgar’s LF module but since you use digital gismos on this thing you might play with the concept.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-07-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 17
Post ID: 866
Reply to: 804
More about the upperbass importance.
At the beginning of this thread I said: “Show to me your middbas solution and I will tell you how your playback sounds”. Continuing to stress the domination importance of middbas-upperbass I would like to bring some illustrations and let you to make own conclusion why I feel (and why I hear) that the upper bass channel of your playback is should be something from where the thinking about speakers should be starting.

"Ironically", our hearing has also it’s maximum sensitively at the frequencies where the orchestra output it’s maximum DB impact.

I would like do not dive into the stories how Darwinism might be applied to the progress of musical instrument design, to the theories of harmony and orchestration but what I would like to stress the ALL OF IT will be handled by your upperbass channel. So, audio people do not screw it!

Rgs,
Romy the Cat

PS: The charts courtesy to Keith Nenney's "The Radio Engineering Book" 1941


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-20-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 18
Post ID: 2421
Reply to: 804
A typical upperbass horn mistake.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
The biggest problem that usually people face when they listen the middbas horn is that people tend to make the middbas horns too short. In the short horn the driver shot right through the horn and the LF go not “get loaded” with the horn mouth. For instance the JBL 4560 is a typical size middbas horn, the size that most of audio people use.

JBL4560.jpg


The 4560 would give you with a correct driver ~120Hz but it will be only 200Hz of horn loading and the rest below will run as a direct radiator. If you put in this type of enclose a driver with lover resonant frequency you get even lower response from it but it has no relation to horn loading. Most of the popular Altec horns are even shallower then the 4560. For instance audio people stick into the Altec 5-9 the 515B with Fs hear 20Hz and they happy to get “bass” out of this speakers. In reality the horn loading in there do not go lower then 200-250Hz and the rest is juts sound of mass-centric direct radiator driver boosted with a port.

I have mentioned above, bringing the JBL 4560 example, that people very frequently make the upperbass horn with too large mouth. As the result they get the horn-like looking direct radiator. Furthermore the people heard about the back chamber affect and try to damp the essentially direct-radiator-like driver with back chamber. As the result then get horrible Sound with congested and unnaturally choked upper bass. One of the best illustrations is the latest modification of Bruce Edgar’s Titans with his straight horn.

On the picture you can see that the horn features inappropriately large driver with inappropriately large throat. If you place a driver into a sealed box and while the driver is producing LF you hold the cone with your hand then you get an idea how the upperbass horns with large throat sound. Another example are horns below. The idea of the intaltion was corect but the size of the upperbass throat makes those horns ridicules.

Do not repeat somebody else’s mistakes.

Rgs,
Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-20-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
slowmotion


Oslo, Norway
Posts 60
Joined on 07-22-2004

Post #: 19
Post ID: 2422
Reply to: 2421
Re: upperbass horns...
Hi all

Yes, the thing with midbass/upperbass horns , as Romy states, is that those horns are usually built to be too short. You might actually be better off using the driver in a sealed box.
For example, look at the size of a typical upper midrange horn, and compare it to the frequency area that it is used in. The horn of such a horn is usually quite generous compared to the length of the wavelengths it is meant to cover.
Let's say, just as an example, that you want to make a horn to cover from say 1000Hz and up a bit, using a compression driver. Now, you'd probably make a 500Hz horn, with a length of at least 50cm. The wavelenght at
1000Hz is about 35cm. So the horn have a length longer than the longest
wavelength it is asked to reproduce ( 1000Hz ).
Now, on the other hand, compare that with the horns pictured in Romys post. The wavelenght at 100Hz is almost 3,5 meters......

cheers Wink
05-21-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 20
Post ID: 2426
Reply to: 2421
What people do not get, and not only about upperbass horn.

This is funny and depressing at the same time. Two readers of my site sent me unhappy emails informing me that my latest posts” “A typical upperbass horn mistake.” was juts my foolishness. Whatever they said boils down to following:

1)  They do not understand what I was talking about and therefore they feel that what I said is just my abstract generalization.
2) They have the upperbass horns with oversized throat and rafters read what I said they feel that I defecated in this own backyard and personally insulted them
3) They believe that their system sound wonderful and they don’t see in their sound the problems that I described.

I proposed them to reply on the subject on the site but they chicken out as they know that the argument “ I paid a lot of money for this and not you are saying that I did wrong” not going to fly in here. Really, guys, we not in Kansas anymore regarding the subject and it is not my fault that the horn content at this site is probably the most advanced among any internet sites. I care less about your opinions about your own systems, about your digital crossover, PA amplifier, rock-n-roll music and your complete misunderstanding of the subject. If you are so dumb that you can not understand what the conversation is all about then consult the person who built your horns: he perfectly familiar with subject and perfectly agree with me, although you have to bribe him in order him to reveal truth for you. I do it for free.

Still, the biggest problem I see in your stunning level of unsecured stupidity that you express.  You said: “I seriously doubt your speakers have better bass (or better anything) than mine” and “If you hear my uppers bass you’d shut up.” I am glad that both comments were made by the people who never were in my listening room. How ewer, the subject of the fundamental limitations of the upperbass horns with oversize throat has nothing to do with egos or with wishful thinning. If you are wiling to collaborate the reasons, courses and the actual results with open mind and with own self-loving agenda then you have chance to learn something. If not then keep singing the horn song about the pink dinosaur and leave me alone.

Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-21-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 2427
Reply to: 2422
The ultimate upperbass?
slowmotion,

I think the ultimate length of the upperbass horn is 3”- 4” throat. With longer horn it would be very complicated to time-align it as the horn will mask out the MF driver.  The ultimate driver for upperbass should be a compression driver, low to medium flux, with no face plug, most likely with aluminum cone and resonant frequency ~20-50Hz below the horn rate. I personally do not know such a driver, if someone do then let me know….

The Cat



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-22-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 2428
Reply to: 2426
A Euro perspective on upper bass horns
Excerpted from:

http://www.volvotreter.de/pics_plans.htm

Design Basis Summary

  • total horn length (incl. back chamber) shall not exceed 1,00m
  • the horn shall have conical approximation of a hyperbolic flare contur with m=0.6
  • the horn shall have a 5/16 mouth size of a free space horn
  • the horn shall have a 1:1.6 mouth ratio to minimize mouth reflections
  • the horn shall not be folded to reach 500Hz upper xover frequency
  • the horn shall use an EV EVM15L

05-22-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 23
Post ID: 2429
Reply to: 2428
Re: A Euro perspective on upper bass horns

more info about this horn from AA:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=107444&highlight=edgar&r=&session=

These horns are an alternative to my 150Hz Tractrix. They are 77Hz, 3/16 mouth front horns with a conical shape. This is because the simulated difference to initially designed hyperbolic m=0.6 horn seem to be negligible. The horns are built from 40mm MDF. So the horn shell is pretty stiff even without a surrounding box. The driver is an EVM15L.


05-22-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 24
Post ID: 2430
Reply to: 2429
The Erick’s cheating upbass horn

 skushino wrote:

• total horn length (incl. back chamber) shall not exceed 1,00m
• the horn shall have conical approximation of a hyperbolic flare contur with m=0.6
• the horn shall have a 5/16 mouth size of a free space horn
• the horn shall have a 1:1.6 mouth ratio to minimize mouth reflections
• the horn shall not be folded to reach 500Hz upper xover frequency
• the horn shall use an EV EVM15L

Well, if people threw the comments “the horn shall” then they should provide reasons for it. Perhaps the guy does have his reasons. I believe I know some of them and I do not agree with his reasons, not to mention that some of his reasons are absolutely laughable.


 skushino wrote:

These horns are an alternative to my 150Hz Tractrix. They are 77Hz, 3/16 mouth front horns with a conical shape. This is because the simulated difference to initially designed hyperbolic m=0.6 horn seem to be negligible. The horns are built from 40mm MDF. So the horn shell is pretty stiff even without a surrounding box. The driver is an EVM15L.

No surprise he posted at AA: those morns swallow everything! Kill me but I do not see in this horn 77Hz, horn loaded. A 15” EVM15L has primary resonance of 40Hz, with this back chamber he might jack it up a little. Why the back chamber has such a huge volume (at least external) only God knows.  If he runs Fs of this horn under the 77Hz then he screw his horn overloading the mouth with LF. To increase the Fs via back chamber from 40Hz to 75-80Hz he would need superbly small space behind the driver. In fact so small that it would make the driver too “stiff” and convert this horn in the acoustic suspension arrangement with attached horn. The only explanation would be if he uses in his horn an oversized throat: I would say 8-9 inches (considering the length of the horn). This would explain absolutely anything including how he was able to get 77Hz form this size mouth. I do not know the dimensions of this thing but if to pretend the MF driver sits at it default highs then this upper bass horn has a mouth of approximately 35”x20”. This thing, considering the 8”” throat is loaded as horn down 150Hz no more. All the rest the EVM15L driver shots through the horn like a direct radiator. This was the reasons why he need to make this huge back chamber because he needs a lot of exertion form this driver, actual he might wide open it with the same result.

I visited Erick site before and I believe his site is for years in the bookmarks of my site. I like him but it does not make his new upperbass horn to comply with my views of what good upper bass horns might be.

Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-23-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
slowmotion


Oslo, Norway
Posts 60
Joined on 07-22-2004

Post #: 25
Post ID: 2432
Reply to: 2427
Re: Upperbass for you? Or me?
 Romy the Cat wrote:
slowmotion,

I think the ultimate length of the upperbass horn is 3”- 4” throat. With longer horn it would be very complicated to time-align it as the horn will mask out the MF driver. The ultimate driver for upperbass should be a compression driver, low to medium flux, with no face plug, most likely with aluminum cone and resonant frequency ~20-50Hz below the horn rate. I personally do not know such a driver, if someone do then let me know….

The Cat


Depends on which way you want the horn to work, I think.
I am at the moment trying to think about these things without "thinking" about them, .... , no that doesn't make any sense....

3" - 4" throat, could be, but from there you can go in many directions....
I am in a way less bound by these things than you because i make the compromise of using a digital crossover. So I can try to optimise each horn in its intended passband, thinking more on each horn than was possible before.

Also I consider the flare type of the horn to be free for experiments, one may even make 2 or 3 segment horns with different flares in each segment.
This is not so easy to get right....

I have earlier stated that I don't like conicals, so I won't go there.

To the point: IMHO the horn should be free to work AS A HORN in the intended passband. If one can't do that , it might be "better" ( one might get better results ) to go to other kinds of enclosures. With the neccesary membrane areal. A different route alltogether.
An ideal proper horn will ( we hope ) load the driver mainly resistive in the intended pass band,
so we can then use amplifiers with a damping factor of 1, with good results. But that's another story....

cheers Wink
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