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05-26-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 2446
Reply to: 2426
Re: What people do not get, and not only about upperbass horn.
Romy,
If making a Tractrix Horn to cover between 100Hz & 1000Hz do you have to choose an Fc or mouth size that equates to 50 Hz? I've often read, and don't know if its true, that tractrix horns actually need to have their Fc an octave lower than the lowest frequency you can realistically get from them.  It's hard to tell the diameter of your upper bass horn from the pictures. Has any allowance been made for wall proximity or just the floor?
05-26-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 2447
Reply to: 2446
Re: resonances, resonances ...

It is depends what kind horn it is. For LF horn the resonance should not be “an octave lower then lowest frequency you can realistically get from the horn”.  In fact the common way is to much the assembly resonance to the horn cut off by squashing the back chamber. Theoretically it cancels out the throat reactance in the horns with the small throats but in practice only God knows how those upperbass horn would sound when you are done. For the HF horn it is kind of correct: people hide the primary resonance behind the horn rate but I do not know the rules how far. In realty no one manage the compression drivers resonance intelligently but people use whatever compression garbage was already accidentally made for us. I was playing with managing the Fs of compression drivers, got very inconclusive and uninterruptible results and … abandon to think about it. In compression drive the secondary resonances and the resonances due to the crappy driver design are more effective then the Fs.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-26-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
NBC
California
Posts 22
Joined on 08-10-2006

Post #: 28
Post ID: 4064
Reply to: 804
Electrolytic Caps
"Do not use plastic caps ... but go for a tandem of electrolytics Nichicons with active biasing."


Hi Romy,

Please excuse my ignorance. Can you please clarify what you mean by "active biasing" -- in relation to the caps?

I'm thinking to get several 100uF Nichicon caps for trials with 1.5T Ferrite 515-16G (Fs= 37Hz) and 1.2T Alnico JBL 2220 (Fs = 48Hz) on 70Hz horn.

www.Angela.com has NICHICON 100V "Muse KZ Series" electrolytics and 450V "VX Series Aluminum" Electrolytic Caps.

Are either of these caps appropriate?

Regards,
Neil



03-26-2007 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 4067
Reply to: 4064
Active biasing explained.
 NBC wrote:
Can you please clarify what you mean by "active biasing" -- in relation to the caps?

ActivBbiasing.JPG


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 4711
Reply to: 804
How do NOT make upperbass….
I always told that there is a differents between a horn and a pipe...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9665311@N07/
 
The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-23-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
horny
Posts 28
Joined on 11-19-2007

Post #: 31
Post ID: 5918
Reply to: 4711
“Show to me your middbas solution and I will tell you how your playback sounds”
Another bogus idea.
If a perfect upper bass could be achieved by means of spherical (approx. 1m diameter horn), what would be the next acceptable solution,
if space considerations do not allow big horns?
Perhaps that could be a line array of small direct radiators in a closed box, something like Nearfield Acoustics has done:

http://www.highemotionaudio.com/pipedreams.html

Of course their upper midrange-tweeter solution is not ideal (many discrete sources producing comb filtering effects),
but at least in the range of 80-500 Hz one could get a nice coverage of various room modes.
06-01-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 32
Post ID: 7510
Reply to: 2427
Midbass horn questions

"I think the ultimate length of the upperbass horn is 3”- 4” throat. With longer horn it would be very complicated to time-align it as the horn will mask out the MF driver." 
Is this also why you use tractrix curve for expansion? 
To shorten the horn, and keep the centerlines of all horns closer together, instead of exponential? 
Is this a guess (length), or have you actually tried both curves, in this frequency range? 


Where did you come up with these numbers for an "ultimate driver" from? 

Throat (driver diameter), flux, cone material, resonate frequency? 
Why no phase plug? 
Are these all guesses, experiments, or physics? 

I don't mind building several horns, and drivers to experiment, but I'm trying to ask as many questions as possible first, to shorten the learning curve.  I've been digging for patents/white papers,and through physics and acoustics texts, but haven't turned up enough to actually base anything off of without a LOT of experimentation, or outright copying.  
Thanks,
Robert

06-01-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 7511
Reply to: 7510
Do not confuse upperbass horn with midbass horn.

 serenechaos wrote:
"I think the ultimate length of the upperbass horn is 3”- 4” throat. With longer horn it would be very complicated to time-align it as the horn will mask out the MF driver." 

Is this also why you use tractrix curve for expansion? 
To shorten the horn, and keep the centerlines of all horns closer together, instead of exponential? 
Is this a guess (length), or have you actually tried both curves, in this frequency range? 

The type of curve used for upperbass horn is slightly different subject the slower rate the more bass extension you get but also your horn become longer. With faster opening you have less low end but in some way better quality of the lower end you get. There is no rule there but I feel that approximately 120-150 Hz is the region where the profile makes sense (deepens how you upperbass MacroImbeded in your room) to switch from fact opening (Tratrix, LeCleach) to slow opening (exponential, parabolic). The problem with 80-120Hz parabolic for instance is the size and vignetteing of MF channels in nearfield.

 serenechaos wrote:
Where did you come up with these numbers for an "ultimate driver" from? 

I presume you meant the "ultimate throat  size" not the "ultimate driver". The answer would be:  Practice of listening, thinking and experimenting with different solution. Do not make a mistake confusing the upperbass horns with midbass horns – they are different animals. For an upperbass horn (70-120Hz mouth) 3”- 4” throat is, all thing considered, is perfect in my view. For an upperbass horn (45-70Hz mouth) I feel a throat of 5”- 8” will be more appropriate.  Sure the people who use a single horn-loaded Lowther, driving with it full range will be laughing. Welcome to my world.

 serenechaos wrote:
I don't mind building several horns, and drivers to experiment, but I'm trying to ask as many questions as possible first, to shorten the learning curve.  I've been digging for patents/white papers, and through physics and acoustics texts, but haven't turned up enough to actually base anything off of without a LOT of experimentation, or outright copying. 

Robert, unfortunately the “patents/white papers, and through physics and acoustics texts”, equally to pontification of classically trained acoustic systems boulders have absolutely nothing to do with sound you will be getting from horn sand 99% of BS written about hors is juts worthless garbage. I know it sound like my personal attitude but it will take for you a looooong time to appreciate what I am trying to say. If you do not believe me then I would let you know that what I said is actually the private quote from a person why from my point of view know more about horn sound more than any other living person. I do not try to convince you or encourage you to embrace a specific point of view. All that I ask you is that what you found a source that from your point of view construct up a presumptive theory how to get Sound form horns then let me know.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-01-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 34
Post ID: 7514
Reply to: 2427
Unconfusing midbass horn

By “midbass horn” I’m talking about a horn with about a flare frequency of about 60 Hz,
to use with Fane 8” drivers, to start with.   

 (Was planning to use this horn from wherever it sounded best, trying for around 80 Hz to ~350 Hz). 
I was planning on using a slow opening (exponential) for this horn. 

I noticed you used a tractrix. 

I didn’t think one could “get away” with using a tractrix down this low, without major penalties in sound quality.  
The tractrix is attractive in that it is much shorter…

Have you tried (heard/listened to) both? 
I was planning on fixing this horn to the ceiling anyway, which helps get it out of the way somewhat, but it is still seems a problem to place everything (time aligned) without the mouths in front getting in the way of wavefronts of the mouths behind them. 

When I ask about the “ultimate driver”, I was referring to what you started this "The ultimate upperbass?" thread with: 

 Romy the Cat wrote:

I think the ultimate length of the upperbass horn is 3”- 4” throat. With longer horn it would be very complicated to time-align it as the horn will mask out the MF driver. 

The ultimate driver for upperbass should be a compression driver, low to medium flux, with no face plug, most likely with aluminum cone and resonant frequency ~20-50Hz below the horn rate. I personally do not know such a driver, if someone do then let me know…
The Cat


I just noticed that was a couple years old...
Maybe you've changed you're idea of ultimate, or have tried other things since then, (I know I have...) 

Thank you for any help. 
I'm just looking for all the information I can find on a place to start. 
All I really know is that I heard a horn system last weekend at VSAC that was so much better than anything I've ever heard that I'm starting over. 
I think a little theory helps, then some measurement, experimentation, listening, repeat...

Thanks again,
Robert
06-02-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 7515
Reply to: 7514
Drivers, horns, mistakes and oversights.

 serenechaos wrote:
By “midbass horn” I’m talking about a horn with about a flare frequency of about 60 Hz, to use with Fane 8” drivers, to start with.   

 (Was planning to use this horn from wherever it sounded best, trying for around 80 Hz to ~350 Hz). 
I was planning on using a slow opening (exponential) for this horn. 

I noticed you used a tractrix. 

I have my motivations to go for Tratrix but do not forget that my horn is 115Hz not 60Hz and it sits under and in front of MF channels not above or on side. For 60Hz I think I would go for slow opening and locate it on the side, unless you have you original idea how to locate 60Hz horn within the limited and prefixed height of MF channels.  Be careful with idea of using the Fane 8” drivers (I presume it is the Studio 8M) for 60Hz horn. The Fane has 68Hz it’s resonance frequency and it will be a huge starch trying to use this driver in 60Hz horn. I afraid the driver will be suffocated. The Studio 8M in open air goes down to ~450Hz and  down to 150Hz in sealed box. Loaded into 4” and compressing it with back chamber it get EQed down to 110Hz. You migh get out of it another 10-20Hz by beter horn EQ but it will be I feel a huge compromise. Search for your  60Hz horn another driver with open air resonance of around 35hz-50Hz.

 serenechaos wrote:
I didn’t think one could “get away” with using a tractrix down this low, without major penalties in sound quality. 

I agree but I would not insist that it is true. It is controversial as “sound quality” is not the same as bass extension.

 serenechaos wrote:
When I ask about the “ultimate driver”, I was referring to what you started this "The ultimate upperbass?" thread…. .  

I see. I was talking not about an “ultimate driver” but an “ultimate driver for a given horn rate. This is very different and I very much agree with what I said in there. For your 60Hz horn try to find an above 100dB sensitive 10-12” driver with Fs of ~40Hz, look at throat of 6-7” and use the driver as a compression driver. Do not ask me specific recommendations what driver to use – I honestly do not know.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 36
Post ID: 7806
Reply to: 7515
5 inch driver for upper midbass horn

Romy, do you think there is enough of a chance Fane's new studio 5 incher (http://www.fane-acoustics.com/pdfs/Studio_5M.pdf) could be driven down far enough to be worth trying out for an upper midbass horn (120Hz)?
07-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 37
Post ID: 7808
Reply to: 7806
Fine Studio 5M driver.
The 5M is very poor driver and I found it not useable in any application I was trying to use it. Search the site. There were talks about it…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-08-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dresden
Posts 21
Joined on 11-08-2008

Post #: 38
Post ID: 8763
Reply to: 2430
On A Mid/Upper Bass Horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
I'm a new reader of your website and one subject which interests me a lot is that of upper bass horns.

As you have noted time and again (with which I agree almost completely, after reading a lot of 'research' [many claiming to defy the laws of physics]), is that most designs claiming horn bass loading under 100 Hz are false.  The laws of physics cannot change.

In light of this fact, I have one question concerning horn loading in the range of 40 Hz to 400 Hz:  Is it possible to attain good performance in this range in a design with both the front and back of the driver horn loaded?  (I'm in the process of designing a horn for this range, but I'm really interested in knowing if a design using the energy from both the front and back of the driver might yield good results--perhaps higher efficiency--without unacceptable phase, cancellation, or other potential problems.  One reason for wanting to limit the upper range to 400 Hz is that I may implement a partial bend near the throat to accommodate the proper length of the horn [the horn will be vertical with the driver facing downward and the sound exiting 90 degrees to the audience].  My aim is to use the system without a subwoofer.)

Any light you can shed on the matter will be most appreciated.
 Romy the Cat wrote:

 skushino wrote:

• total horn length (incl. back chamber) shall not exceed 1,00m
• the horn shall have conical approximation of a hyperbolic flare contur with m=0.6
• the horn shall have a 5/16 mouth size of a free space horn
• the horn shall have a 1:1.6 mouth ratio to minimize mouth reflections
• the horn shall not be folded to reach 500Hz upper xover frequency
• the horn shall use an EV EVM15L

Well, if people threw the comments “the horn shall” then they should provide reasons for it. Perhaps the guy does have his reasons. I believe I know some of them and I do not agree with his reasons, not to mention that some of his reasons are absolutely laughable.


 skushino wrote:

These horns are an alternative to my 150Hz Tractrix. They are 77Hz, 3/16 mouth front horns with a conical shape. This is because the simulated difference to initially designed hyperbolic m=0.6 horn seem to be negligible. The horns are built from 40mm MDF. So the horn shell is pretty stiff even without a surrounding box. The driver is an EVM15L.

No surprise he posted at AA: those morns swallow everything! Kill me but I do not see in this horn 77Hz, horn loaded. A 15” EVM15L has primary resonance of 40Hz, with this back chamber he might jack it up a little. Why the back chamber has such a huge volume (at least external) only God knows.  If he runs Fs of this horn under the 77Hz then he screw his horn overloading the mouth with LF. To increase the Fs via back chamber from 40Hz to 75-80Hz he would need superbly small space behind the driver. In fact so small that it would make the driver too “stiff” and convert this horn in the acoustic suspension arrangement with attached horn. The only explanation would be if he uses in his horn an oversized throat: I would say 8-9 inches (considering the length of the horn). This would explain absolutely anything including how he was able to get 77Hz form this size mouth. I do not know the dimensions of this thing but if to pretend the MF driver sits at it default highs then this upper bass horn has a mouth of approximately 35”x20”. This thing, considering the 8”” throat is loaded as horn down 150Hz no more. All the rest the EVM15L driver shots through the horn like a direct radiator. This was the reasons why he need to make this huge back chamber because he needs a lot of exertion form this driver, actual he might wide open it with the same result.

I visited Erick site before and I believe his site is for years in the bookmarks of my site. I like him but it does not make his new upperbass horn to comply with my views of what good upper bass horns might be.

Rgs,
Romy the caT

11-08-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 8770
Reply to: 8763
The front and back loading and radiation
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Dresden wrote:
I'm a new reader of your website and one subject which interests me a lot is that of upper bass horns.

As you have noted time and again (with which I agree almost completely, after reading a lot of 'research' [many claiming to defy the laws of physics]), is that most designs claiming horn bass loading under 100 Hz are false.  The laws of physics cannot change.

In light of this fact, I have one question concerning horn loading in the range of 40 Hz to 400 Hz:  Is it possible to attain good performance in this range in a design with both the front and back of the driver horn loaded?  (I'm in the process of designing a horn for this range, but I'm really interested in knowing if a design using the energy from both the front and back of the driver might yield good results--perhaps higher efficiency--without unacceptable phase, cancellation, or other potential problems.  One reason for wanting to limit the upper range to 400 Hz is that I may implement a partial bend near the throat to accommodate the proper length of the horn [the horn will be vertical with the driver facing downward and the sound exiting 90 degrees to the audience].  My aim is to use the system without a subwoofer.)

Any light you can shed on the matter will be most appreciated.

Dresden,

great question, complex question and I feel that it well-worth a separate thread: front and back lording and radiation. I, whatever it worth, generally against any dual loading. Unfortunately I have no time now to compile all my arguments into a sensible reply. I also do not exactly know why I am against it I need person some time to do some thinking and to rationalize it.  I might do it later. The front and back lording and radiation is certainly own animal and need to be viewed from own perspective…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-10-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dresden
Posts 21
Joined on 11-08-2008

Post #: 40
Post ID: 8813
Reply to: 8770
Horn Loading of Both Front and Rear Acoustic Energy
fiogf49gjkf0d
I've been doing a lot of research on how a properly designed horn works (from initial Western Electric designs to present day efforts) in order to get a real grasp of what will and will not work.  I've read and saved hundreds of papers and designs from the internet to date.  Interestingly, the more information I collected, the more it appeared that older, 'vintage' ('30s to '40s) designs were created with a true understanding of acoustic energy and proper loading.  (I'm more a designer and a 'hack' than anything else, but the theories point me in that direction.)

I've thus far deduced that in light of the fact that the driver's excursion will be lessened and distortion will accordingly remain negligible (as a result of the horn loading), a model with horn loading on both radiating sides of a diaphragm may work.

I'm glad you replied since it confirms my previous conclusion--only in creating two models (one with front loading and sealed back, the other with horn loading using the acoustic energy from both sides), and testing said models, can I obtain real-world figures, both measured and heard.  (I concede that horn modeling--without actual construction--can only take anyone so far.  In reference to Hornresp, I believe it was created for the sole purpose of driving people insane [never mind even calling it a usable 'program'].)

Learning how to use SolidWorks to model my Mid horn will be challenging (if I can master the program at all).  But if I can accomplish that, I will also be able to model the two prototypes for the Mid/LF horns.

Thank you again your for valuable feedback.
11-10-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 8817
Reply to: 8813
The Contemporary Horns.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Actually, for me it works differently. I do not read a lot about horns and try do NOT learning anything about horns. I very much do not take seriously also most of the things that people talk about horns on internet. People run mouth on any subject and they feel that if the words are spelled correctly then the words become precious information that has meaning behind. In reality the internet horn public has very restricted objective and very limited result. Put in this way: 95% of hors installs out there can’t play music seriously – so what to talk more with those people about? I also have a lot of disagreement with vintage designs. A ten or so years ago Bruce Edgar in interview (there is somewhere his interview in my links) said a good phase: “Contemporary Horns”. I like this idea of Contemporary Horns. Sure, there were SOME very good separate aspects in vintage designs but all together I think many of vintage design ideas are not usable in context of objectionable contemporary horns. I have written many times about it at my site.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-11-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dresden
Posts 21
Joined on 11-08-2008

Post #: 42
Post ID: 8818
Reply to: 8817
On Mid/Upper Bass Horn Design
fiogf49gjkf0d
I understand your point of view concerning 'vintage' in comparison to 'contemporary'.  What I find the most troubling with many of the present/contemporary attempts in design is that many people claim to have a truly horn loaded system capable of producing an accurate low end of say, 55 Hz, though closer inspection of just the immediate outer dimensions clearly show that is not the case.  (Many, many designs I've considered for an upper bass design in reality only yield proper bass horn loading of no lower than 130 Hz or 140 Hz average.  Some of the better 'vintage' horns do not try to claim reproduction of bass using an inadequate length--dispersion and distortion characteristics were not anywhere near perfect, but the length required for the intended bass range is present.)

Since I started studying this matter several months ago with virtually no knowledge of horns, I've collected examples and information on all types of horns (both good and bad designs).  I keep my sanity by remembering that there is no such thing as a 'perfect horn design'.

I'll peruse more of your web pages in the near future.
11-11-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 43
Post ID: 8822
Reply to: 8818
My equalization “theory”.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, you see, the outer dimensions of the mouth of cause an indications of low end response and by objective evaluation of it is easy to estimate horn’s bass numbers. However, it is very far from “sufficient” assessment. A few years back I completely denied any theory of horns operation and proposed my own “theory” that doe makes applied sense to me – the Frequency Domain Assessment. I refuse to recognize a horn as impedance transformation devise or as pressure transformation devise. I insist that horn is equalization devise and then I refuge to acknowledge anything else about horns. I have written a lot about it thigh my site. From a fist perspective to view horns as ONLY as equalization devise is not a big deal but in really it is radical different view. One of the major distinctions and advantage of my equalization view is that the equalization encompasses everything else and allows evaluating actual results instead of rhetorical rationalization. If you made a horn with specific mouth size, specific throat size, specific driver and specific Fs, with specific bad and front channel and use it with specific low and high pass filters then it is possible to give some estimate about sound of this thing, at least about the pressure that the channel will develop. However, there is much better way of looking at the things – the no BS equalization evaluation of the horn. Take the driver that used in the horn and make a sweep with this driver in open air and then in open baffle of let say 1 sq meter. Then load the driver in the horn and get another sweep on axis. You will see the true performance of your horn and will clearly see where and how the horn boosts, what past of bass some from the driver’s exertion and what comes from horn EQ. With necessary experience of looking into equalization graphs you will lose a need to look at anything else as the EQ graphs will be very illustrating about the true horns performance.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dresden
Posts 21
Joined on 11-08-2008

Post #: 44
Post ID: 8825
Reply to: 8822
On Horn Design Methodology
fiogf49gjkf0d
It appears that the approach you present may subject a designer to a more 'trial and error' approach.  On the other hand, I agree that the actual performance of a horn cannot be fully determined until it has been built and tested (the process of testing the actual horn rendering the true performance how successfully [or unsuccessfully] a design is implemented).  (I agree design that looks perfect on paper is no guarantee that it will produce sound beautifully.)

One aspect of my approach which I believe undoubtedly helps me is that I refuse to fall in love with my design (or any particular quality there of).  I'm 'willing to kill my babies' in pursuit of a natural, effortless sounding system (performance trumping over aesthetics or other feeble preoccupations many people entertain for reasons that have nothing to do with sound).

I've concluded to design the initial horn prototype using calculations to approximate proper loading and only after the horn is built will I take measurements (and listen) to the results--modifying the design (or creating a new one) as deemed necessary.
11-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 8826
Reply to: 8825
It is also depends of what you are looking for.
fiogf49gjkf0d
There are very many totally not predictable things in bass horns; I would not go into enumeration of them – what the point? However, keeping the thread in context if it’s subject I would note that the objectives and reference points of the horn owner are also a very significant factor in determining what kind sound the horn will do. I for instance have no interest anymore in “getting better bass” from bass upper bass horn but I rather interested in getting a certain sense of softness from upperbass horn (actually not from upperbass but rather from midbass). I know exactly what kind bass softness I would like to get, to know HOW to get it, or willingness to go for it is another subject. If to look ONLY at the performance of upper bass, then I heard from playback only twice in my life the mid/upper bass that consider was as the “properly done bass” and that had the softness that I would consider as “references”. First time it was in 2002 with accidently successful corner loading and 15’ driver. Second time it was this summer from 50Hz front-loaded horn driven by twin drivers. Among all other installation and herd that I heard I never heard anything else worth my positive comments.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dresden
Posts 21
Joined on 11-08-2008

Post #: 46
Post ID: 8844
Reply to: 8826
On Objective Of Mid/Upper Bass Horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
I concur the objective to acquire performance in the desired frequency range must predominate most other considerations of design.

My objective for the design of the mid/upper bass horn is to attain effortless, smooth, real-world horn-loaded response in the desired target range (40 Hz to 400 Hz).  In a more practical approach, I would be satisfied with attaining accurate, smooth, full-bodied sound even in a limited range of 90 Hz to 400 Hz.  (By accurate I mean linear [or as physically possible, near flat] response in the target range [-+3dB].)  I don't like the idea of trying to convince myself that the lower frequencies of the target range are being reproduced in a proficient manner, though it is almost indiscernible when compared to the upper target range.  (As an example, if the frequency reproduction in the target range vary by -+7dB, or worse, -+10dB in the constructed horn, the design was not effective and should be modified to correct this flaw.  [Unfortunately, I see most people opt to 'correct' the response by implementing a curve via an electronic eq.  I believe that approach is terribly flawed, given that the design of the horn itself has not been corrected.  I believe if the design of the horn proves to be poorly implemented, the design--and hence, the horn--should be modified to achieve the target range acoustically.])

I'll consider your advice of subjective listening on the actual results of a horn when I make time to construct the prototype horn(s).  Presently, my time is consumed by a few legal responsibilities, but I project beginning construction in late January or February 2009.  Should I miraculously achieve desired results (after the due construction and modificationSleep), I'll be sure to post it on your web site.  Thank you for your sharing your valuable real-world experiences on how to approach horn design.
11-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 47
Post ID: 8845
Reply to: 8844
You are about to ruin own winter.
fiogf49gjkf0d

You need to decide what length of the horn you can afford. When I mean “afford” I ment the position of the horn in context of the rest of your system. You know the lowest cut off - 40Hz. So, the most suitable for you length and the mouth size will give you the throat diameter. If you have unlimited space in your room then be advised that starting form some point the increase of length and minimization of the throat will increase loading but also will introduces some unwanted colorations. You see, the longer horn is them more “parallel” it is. A horn that we use for audio have very slow opening at beginning and in very long horn the “beginning of the horn” section is very long, it might be a foot or two of virtually parallel walls. For the frequencies that the 40Hz horn will be caring the “virtually parallel walls” are the essentially the parallel walls.  I have no idea when it becomes a factor but too long horns tend to be congested and colored.

So, you have a horn, you have a throat diameter, then you need to find a driver. To decide on a driver is very complicated ceremony and my absolute rule is following in it: “It is absolutely imposable to predict with a serenity how a driver will sound after it will be loaded in a given horn.” You might do for compression driver, or for conventional driver, in fact any driver that you will be using with back chamber will become a compression driver.   The section of driver is a big subject… Linearity is not something that I would even care; do not think about it as you have no control over it anyhow. I laugh when people talk about linearization of bass horn frequency response.

Where are you? A well-sounding 40Hz horn is very interning accomplishment to experience. If you are near US’ New England and if you listen serious music then I would like to be invited after you finish the projects.

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 48
Post ID: 8849
Reply to: 8845
40 - 400 or 90 - 400 Hz?
fiogf49gjkf0d
There's a big difference in 40 - 400 and 90 - 400 Hz. 

40 - 400 might also be stretching the bandwidth which will be horn loaded? 
(FLHs by nature are narrow band, 40 - 400 is over three octaves...)
And, besides the coloration Romy mentioned, a very long horn will act as an acoustic low-pass filter. 

Integration.  I mean all drivers having the "same type voice." 
I don't know what you plan below 40 or above 400, but they need to have the same general "Sound." 
Or you can end up with something that sounds like so many good drivers playing, instead of one integrated "Sound." 

Just a few of the problems I've been dealing with in building a 65 Hz mid bass horn. 
Which is MUCH smaller than 40 Hz. 
But is easy to integrate with a tapped horn from 25 Hz up to where it comes on.  
Something that would hit 40Hz does sound like an interesting challange... 
Robert  
11-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 178
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 49
Post ID: 8850
Reply to: 8849
Tapped horn ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Robert
Aren't those meant to be driven by 250W SS amps ? Did you chose driver for your midbass already ? I thought that for this range 8" Lowther DX series with its 50Hz
Fs and its "lean" sound could compliment your GOTO drivers (16 Ohm version has 3mm max excursion in comparison to 1mm 8ohm)
Regards, L
PS Steve Schell mentioned that 12" Jensen F12N field coil sounded great in expo midbass but I don't know details.
11-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 50
Post ID: 8851
Reply to: 8850
How can you know how the driver is going to sound in the horn???
fiogf49gjkf0d

"Meant to be?"

With 100.5 dB efficiency in quarter space I plan to use a dedicated tube amp.  

Yes, some people use high powered amps to see how loud they can get Def Leppard, but I don't see any reason to.  And some tapped horns are also used in PAs with PA amps. 
Just like front loaded horns have different applications, etc. 

I don't have GOTOs... (only in my dreams) just Radians for now, I'll baseline with them. 
I had thought of using a Lowther or pair of Fostex for mid-bass, actually using a pair in parallel. 
I have several options, driver sizes, and throat sizes to play with. 
Somewhere between 8" and 15", with corresponding throat size. 
Probably Fane 8, B & C 10s, or 18 Sound 15? 

It's down to build, listen, change, listen... 
How else can you know how it's going to sound in the horn???
Robert

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