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  »  New  The “Dead Points of Live Sound”..  Confused...  Playback Listening  Forum     28  312819  05-14-2005
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  637975  07-29-2007
  »  New  Eventually - a reasonable midbass horn from GOTO..  Clever DIY going on where?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     97  1160508  11-19-2007
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  84555  11-03-2008
  »  New  The tapped horns: cons, pros and Sound..  Danley DTS-20....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     57  666498  04-23-2009
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2062258  07-26-2009
  »  New  Why GOTO do not care about time-alignment...  Sarcasm isn't my cup of tea...  Audio News Forum     7  60417  09-22-2009
  »  New  Audio-tekne's "Tone Quality Improvement technique&..  Crooked glasses...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     9  84606  10-10-2009
  »  New  The 5-ways from Germany...  Another Kid?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     38  240597  12-06-2009
  »  New  Configuration from Italy: multisell++ and double model ..  In search of optimum.......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  94631  01-02-2010
  »  New  Multi-amping crossovering...  No input capacitor......  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  65090  09-24-2010
09-08-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kcct82
Beijing, China
Posts 23
Joined on 09-08-2008

Post #: 26
Post ID: 8198
Reply to: 8126
Oh... Sh!T....
Well, I just placed an order on the 505TT and S150 horn last week...

I came across this site after placing my order and now I'm worried about the mismatch of driver/horn. It seems like I'll have to either change the horn or the back chamber. Romy, is there any way to know what the ideal horn should be? I'd rather make a new horn and keep my tools away from the back chamber... I'd like to make a tractrix horn if I do end up making one. I understand that 150hz tractrix is shorter than Goto's S150 so for a 200hz crossover point, would 80hz tractrix be long enough to load half wavelength of 200hz? 

Thanks

Keith

PS- Mr. mingsu if you're about to jump in then FYI, I don't want to cross at 300hz, i don't want to use a more expensive driver as the 505TT is expensive enough, and big no I don't want to use quadrible drivers firing into 1 horn. I suggest you put more info on your site, I had to use babelfish to get half a$$ info on Goto from Japanese sites...
09-08-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 8199
Reply to: 8198
Stay with what Goto recommend at this time.

Keith,

I do not see any “O, shit!” effect.  You went for 505TT/S150 combination and it is fine. Why after reading my comments you developed doubts? It looks to me that if you do have doubts then you did not have enough rational to select this specific driver and this specific horn to begin with.

I see nothing wrong what you do. There is no such a thing as “ideal horn should be”. A proper loading of a given driver to a horn is derivate of many factors, the design objective of you particular installation and the type of sound you would like to get are not very last reasoning. The 505 driver is specified as 200Hz but only God know what and how it does in really at which power. The 150B horn is 150Hz horn. In Tractrix world it would do let say 250-300Hz of minimum loading but it would greatly depend of the driver used. Increase the cone mass and you can do whatever you want – even load 150Hz. I have no idea what Goto do and how it works with their drivers. It is not to mention that they use parabolic horn that has more but different bass at the lower knee.

So, there is nothing wrong in what you do.  You pay money to Goto and alone with it you get from them their expertise in design objective and principles. If you do not have your own objective and principles then it is perfectly fine to be dependent upon the company’s doctrine. There is no reason for you at this point to be “worried” about anything. Get your order, set it up and then see how it all work out.   Always remember the following:

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=432

If you would like to share you observations  about the sound after you get your Goto setup then feel free to post it, picture are also encouraged.

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-08-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kcct82
Beijing, China
Posts 23
Joined on 09-08-2008

Post #: 28
Post ID: 8201
Reply to: 8199
I guess I'll give them a try first
Thanks Romy, I'm using a TAD 10" mid in a sealed box to produce 200hz-800hz. Although I'm fairly happy with it, I'm hoping a compression driver/horn would give even better results. There aren't a lot of ready made options for 200-800hz so I chose Goto thinking "oh they are so expensive they must know what they are doing." After reading your posts I discovered a driver must be properly loaded and that's when the worring started. It'll be another month or two before the drivers arrive. I'll keep you guys updated.

Upon reading your threads I'm already thinking about a 45hz bass horn Smile I have a 22ft x 41ft listening room with 12'9" ceiling. I'll ask more questions about that in another thread and keep this strictly Goto. Thanks again

Keith
09-08-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 8202
Reply to: 8201
The upperbass is very critical.

 Kcct82 wrote:
There aren't a lot of ready made options for 200-800hz so I chose Goto thinking "oh they are so expensive they must know what they are doing."

Yep, there in not a lot of our there in horn universe that care the “primary frequency range” properly. Let see what Goto does.  BTW, my complain about the GOTO disassociation between the back chamber and the horn rate was about the Goto bass compression drivers.

You might also read the following threads:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=1414#1414

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=804#804

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2991#2991

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=862#862

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=4421#4421

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2553#2553

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=994#994

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=1517#1517

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-03-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kcct82
Beijing, China
Posts 23
Joined on 09-08-2008

Post #: 30
Post ID: 8696
Reply to: 8202
Well well well the horns and drivers arrived...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hey Romy,

The Goto drivers (505TT, 100-8khz) and horns (S150, 150hz round exponential) finally arrived. I've only had them for a week so I can't say much about them besides they're not a simple drop in replacement of the previous 10" TAD woofer (200hz-800hz). I've also moved my system into a new room (21' x 41' x 12'6") so it's even harder to judge/comment on the driver's performance. It's gonna take months to fine tune and mess with time delay but it's showing potential... 

Keith

IMG_8726.jpg

IMG_8692.jpg

IMG_8737.jpg
 
11-03-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 8698
Reply to: 8696
Some recommendations.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Keith,

Very good, thanks for the images. It would be very interning to learn what the bandwidth of the horns, the bandwidth of the drivers and the specificity of crossovers you eventually chose to use with each channel. It might take for you for a while to figure the things out but please when you feel comfortable with the results then post the information.

I would like to share some of my observations about the setup – you might find my comments worth to consider.

1)      Your tweeter and your MF channel need to be time aligned. You might raise the platform use you tweeter and slide it all the way back or you might flip the HF and MF channels and position the MF above, it might be too high though…  In the later configuration your deep-seated tweeter will be shoring is a narrow window, you might re to lie it 90 degree on its side, letting the slot to shot horizontally.

2)      I do not think that you will be able to time-alight the upper bass channel but you need to wave-align them. Make sure that upper bass and MF tit the top of the wave at the same time. the will be at the different periods and you will have same comb desertion but you will have still better result than if  MF and upperbass channels cancel each other.

3)      Extend your horns closer to the middle of the room. I would move them right to the edge of the carpet.

4)      Use horn winder. It looks like you have 5-6 feet on right and left that might be used. With setups like this and in the room like this you might be able to get not 30 degree angle but rather 60-70 degree angle between you and two speakers.

5)      Use the following sequence:

  • a.       Properly crossover all your drivers and integrate  them in a way you find appropriate
  • b.      Move back and force from your speakers and detect what is the minimum integration distance (Dmin)
  • c.       Put your at 1.1-1.5 of Dmin and begin to move speakers wider pointing speakers to own solders.
  • d.      Reach the point when the system just benign to lose center image.
  • e.      From this pint move the speakers .5-1 feet back, closer to each other. This will be Wmax location.
  • f.        At this location start to  tow-in and tow-out the speakers and pay attention what will do with center image
  • g.       Find a configuration for tow-in what the frequency response and center image will be OK.
  • h.      Redo it a few times altering the Wmax lotion, true to spread spikes wider.
  • i.         From the new Wmax try to tow-in-out speakers but this time at very low angle trying curve side and middle image in order to make them to be in parabola with you are in the center. Prate that you are conductor and you need to potion your instilments in a way you needs hem to be. Proper recordings at this point are the mast.
  • j.        Nail down and get reference from the preliminary results and start to finalize your crossover points and integration schemas
  • k.        Repeat F to K paragraphs for your new refined integration schema
  • l.          Get the reference  about the obtains sound (RefPointAbsolut)
  • m.    Move your speakers to the distance (Dnew) you would like to use them. Repeat F to K paragraphs for the new distance and new width.
  • n.       The negative delta in sound you might experience between RefPointAbsolut and RefPoint in  Dnew position is the contribution of your room. Start to work with the room
  • o.      Make sure that during all those experiments the quality of electricity is not be a factor and the “ceremony” is spread in time.

6)      Make experiment with alignment of bass channel with upperbass vs. the alignment with MF. You might also try the “step alignment” (For instance upperbass is 3mS behind and bass is another 3mS behind) . It creates a “wavy delay” – sounds nice in some cases with bass.

7)      Flip your bass channel 180degree making port to “read” the floor.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-22-2007

Post #: 32
Post ID: 8723
Reply to: 8696
Nice setup and certainly have room for a bass horn
fiogf49gjkf0d

Hi Keith,

That is an interesting way of setup the S150 horn.  Most of GOTO setup that I have seen set the S150 high and point down to listening position.  All of them crossover the S150 + SG505TT at 200Hz to 1kHz range.  I wish that I have your room size.  I can see the bass horn fit right in.  BTW - it seems that you know me from somewhere but I do not remember any past contact from you. Anyway, enjoy them and congra!
To share my current setup as attached.  As you can see, I am running out of room for all the drivers.  Cheers!

11-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 8726
Reply to: 8723
Idea for Ming
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ming, did you consider to hang your upper bass horn that screws everything up at the very top of the room and then nicely position the MF channels according to the rules of time alignment instead of the rules of warehouse storage? You might also consider something like this:




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-22-2007

Post #: 34
Post ID: 8727
Reply to: 8726
Not really
fiogf49gjkf0d

Well, many ways to try but not much room that I can move around.  I am happy with the sound and happy that I still have a listen room.  BTW - my seating position is 10 ft from the bass horn.  My room is only 22'x15'x9'.

11-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 35
Post ID: 8736
Reply to: 8696
Evolution or revolution? Tradition or...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Keith and congratulations for your new babies... I'm truly jealous of your room size.

Me too, as I previously wrote, assembled a VERY similar rig, vastly inferior to you welded supports, any, using the same approach: S-150, S-3000 and S-400, respectively mid-low/tweeter/mid-high.

I fiddled for weeks, with several angles from extreme 110°, back to 30°, staying at about 70°... consider my listening room is ONLY about 25 square meters and I'm listening on the long side (see pix).

The reason of my post is: yes, I took my time to toe in and out speakers, moving voices of some inches, trying to blend bass enclosure, flipping it 90°, playing with my Phonic gear to obtain a smooth emission fro each voice... BUT, all said and done at the threshold of my patience and interest for the thing, when I re-assembled the 4 ways in a more conventional way, I must admit... all my "new", "revolutionary" ideas in speakers positioning get tamed.

It has been a quite entertaining, amusing, different audio adventure, but being at about 190 cm from the horns front, ears to horn-mouths, I'm sincerely enjoying a quite correct, musically involving, right in size and dynamics rendition... a sort of single speaker, a wide-band listening with much more air, details, trueness.

Maybe, and I'm asking to Roman, am I too near to speakers to appreciate the full benefits of a different alignement (or whatever I experienced in the past weeks...)?

With an horns mounting like Keith's I heard something not so cohesive, full-bodied... also details and center imaging were, in comparison to the actual rig, quite unfair to my ears, I can say now.

I'm pretty sure that horns aren't only for large rooms: the best detail retrival I ever heard happened in my room and in another 20 sq. meters room... I recently measured with my (humble) Phonic PAA3 Audio Analyzer an SPL range between 40 and 98 dbV/A at listening position, with no pain at all, being able to chat with a friend without shouting.

I'll sure won't stop experimenting, but that's what recently happened in my music room... maybe more traditional horns positioning someway "clicks" DPoLS-wise in my room, Roman?

I don't feel me like I gave up in experimenting, BUT like I found a nice aequilibrium.

Cheers,

Stefano         


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
11-05-2008 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 36
Post ID: 8738
Reply to: 8736
Horns are like fishing art….
fiogf49gjkf0d

 twogoodears wrote:
Hi Keith and congratulations for your new babies... I'm truly jealous of your room size.

Me too, as I previously wrote, assembled a VERY similar rig, vastly inferior to you welded supports, any, using the same approach: S-150, S-3000 and S-400, respectively mid-low/tweeter/mid-high.

I fiddled for weeks, with several angles from extreme 110°, back to 30°, staying at about 70°... consider my listening room is ONLY about 25 square meters and I'm listening on the long side (see pix).

The reason of my post is: yes, I took my time to toe in and out speakers, moving voices of some inches, trying to blend bass enclosure, flipping it 90°, playing with my Phonic gear to obtain a smooth emission fro each voice... BUT, all said and done at the threshold of my patience and interest for the thing, when I re-assembled the 4 ways in a more conventional way, I must admit... all my "new", "revolutionary" ideas in speakers positioning get tamed.

It has been a quite entertaining, amusing, different audio adventure, but being at about 190 cm from the horns front, ears to horn-mouths, I'm sincerely enjoying a quite correct, musically involving, right in size and dynamics rendition... a sort of single speaker, a wide-band listening with much more air, details, trueness.

Maybe, and I'm asking to Roman, am I too near to speakers to appreciate the full benefits of a different alignement (or whatever I experienced in the past weeks...)?

With an horns mounting like Keith's I heard something not so cohesive, full-bodied... also details and center imaging were, in comparison to the actual rig, quite unfair to my ears, I can say now.

I'm pretty sure that horns aren't only for large rooms: the best detail retrival I ever heard happened in my room and in another 20 sq. meters room... I recently measured with my (humble) Phonic PAA3 Audio Analyzer an SPL range between 40 and 98 dbV/A at listening position, with no pain at all, being able to chat with a friend without shouting.

I'll sure won't stop experimenting, but that's what recently happened in my music room... maybe more traditional horns positioning someway "clicks" DPoLS-wise in my room, Roman?

I don't feel me like I gave up in experimenting, BUT like I found a nice aequilibrium.

Stefano,

It is hard to me to comment at what you ask. It is like fishing fish. You can go to a beautiful mountain lake in go in a boat in open ocean. You can bring with you some sophisticated bate which was made with aim of the behavior of the specific fish you are targeting. You can bring good fishing equipment and to employ advanced fishing techniques that you might developed for years of fishing practice. You can study the fish manners and reflexes and you can make yourself to think like a fish if you wish. However, all you successes and erudition as a fisherman would greatly depend if you wish in the palace where the wish actually are. If instead of not-yet-polluted lake or open see you will go to fish in your local town’s sewer then no matter how good you as fishermen you will ketch nothing.

How that all relates to horns?

Well, horns are very problematic acoustic systems until they are implemented properly, too few people understand it.  One of absolutely mandatory attributes of proper horn implementation in my view is uncompromising and stubborn time alignment. To me to listen time-un-aligned horn is like fishing in that dirty sewer.  So, when I see picture, here comments or listen the time-un-aligned horn installation then people shell understand that I do not take it all very seriously.

You GOTO folks are in way hostages of GOTO’s systems foolishness. GOTO might do OK drivers but their ideas of system design is at the level of absolute idiocy. I do not know if it intentionally I do not think so. I think they just did not know better, I have some evidences of it looking at some steps they took, but I am not convinced, not do I care too mach…

Anyhow, all advanced techniques of shaping sophisticated image from playback are in my view available only in context of time-coherent system. To move, angle, tow-in, and fine time speakers where they the drivers are not time-align id like playing to better fishing line while fishing in Dupont’s waste sewerage...

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-22-2007

Post #: 37
Post ID: 8739
Reply to: 8738
Well, need to make peace with YOUR room
fiogf49gjkf0d

I cannot say much for others but in my case, my listen room is fixed, either good or bad, larger or small.  There are only so many ways to fit all the audio stuffs into a space.  Of course, if the space is not an issue, time-aligned installation will be the only way to do.  But, in a real world, that is not often the case.  One has to live with lots of limitation, so time-aligned might have to be compromised and take a back seat.   The key and fun is how to get the best sound in YOUR room.  Yes, it might not be the best horn installation but will one rather listen to box speaker?  That apply to lots of GOTO owner.  There are few that can afford to build a building around a speaker system.  I have seen two cases in Japan that GOTO owner built the building to house the GOTO system.  I mean a building just for the GOTO bass horn and all the rest of audio stuffs.  Nothing to do with GOTO driver, nothing to do with not knowing to time align all drivers but just need to make peace with your listen room.

11-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 38
Post ID: 8740
Reply to: 8698
More on time alignment
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

2)      I do not think that you will be able to time-alight the upper bass channel but you need to wave-align them. Make sure that upper bass and MF tit the top of the wave at the same time. the will be at the different periods and you will have same comb desertion but you will have still better result than if  MF and upperbass channels cancel each other.

4)      Use horn winders. It looks like you have 5-6 feet on right and left that might be used. With setups like this and in the room like this you might be able to get not 30 degree angle but rather 60-70 degree angle between you and two speakers.

6)      Make experiment with alignment of bass channel with upperbass vs. the alignment with MF. You might also try the “step alignment” (For instance upperbass is 3mS behind and bass is another 3mS behind) . It creates a “wavy delay” – sounds nice in some cases with bass.

The Cat

2)      Why would you not want to time align the upper bass channel??? 

4)      What's a horn winder? 

6)      Is this suggestion to use a digital delay instead of time alignment?  
            Or do you use the delay in conjunction with time-aligned drivers as well?

I keep relating the idea of GOTO drivers with the instillation I heard @ VSAC, with all channels time aligned. 
It sounded SO much better than anything I've ever heard before or since, and is what inspired me to build a five-way horn system. 
11-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 8741
Reply to: 8739
Absolutely and categorically disagree!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 MINGSU wrote:
Of course, if the space is not an issue, time-aligned installation will be the only way to do. But, in a real world, that is not often the case. One has to live with lots of limitation, so time-aligned might have to be compromised and take a back seat. The key and fun is how to get the best sound in YOUR room.
Ming, what you say is not just wrong but rather it is absolutely irrelevant to reality, sorry. The subject of room space affects only time alignment for bass horns. The bass time alignment is different subject, it is understandable, I am not talking about bass. I am talking about everything above bass and the alignment of upper channels has absolutely NO RELEVANCY TO THE ROOM SIZE but it has ONLY to with specifics of design decisions. I might say a lot about the subject but it is GOTO thread and proper system design decisions would be alien in context of GOTO views. :-). The reason why I raise my voice in response is to make absolutely clear that there is no MF time-alignment compromise in regard to room size. People just were trained and misled do not care about time-alignment and then they try to find bogus “objective” justifications why “we took time-alignment it back seat”.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-06-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kcct82
Beijing, China
Posts 23
Joined on 09-08-2008

Post #: 40
Post ID: 8743
Reply to: 8698
Thanks for the suggestions
fiogf49gjkf0d
Very good, thanks for the images. It would be very interning to learn what the bandwidth of the horns, the bandwidth of the drivers and the specificity of crossovers you eventually chose to use with each channel. It might take for you for a while to figure the things out but please when you feel comfortable with the results then post the information.

Of course, so far I've moved the crossover point from 200 to 300hz... sounds better this way

1)      Your tweeter and your MF channel need to be time aligned. You might raise the platform use you tweeter and slide it all the way back or you might flip the HF and MF channels and position the MF above, it might be too high though…  In the later configuration your deep-seated tweeter will be shoring is a narrow window, you might re to lie it 90 degree on its side, letting the slot to shot horizontally.

2)      I do not think that you will be able to time-alight the upper bass channel but you need to wave-align them. Make sure that upper bass and MF tit the top of the wave at the same time. the will be at the different periods and you will have same comb desertion but you will have still better result than if  MF and upperbass channels cancel each other.

I know you're not a big fan of digital delay, but I'm using behringer DCX 2496 to make things easier... this way I get to keep all horn mouths on the same plane which avoids some reflections (from other horn mouths).

3)      Extend your horns closer to the middle of the room. I would move them right to the edge of the carpet.

4)      Use horn winder. It looks like you have 5-6 feet on right and left that might be used. With setups like this and in the room like this you might be able to get not 30 degree angle but rather 60-70 degree angle between you and two speakers.

I don't know what the advantage would be, can you explain a little? Thanks

5)      Use the following sequence:

  • a.       Properly crossover all your drivers and integrate  them in a way you find appropriate
  • b.      Move back and force from your speakers and detect what is the minimum integration distance (Dmin)
  • c.       Put your at 1.1-1.5 of Dmin and begin to move speakers wider pointing speakers to own solders.
  • ........

Will do, thanks.

7)      Flip your bass channel 180degree making port to “read” the floor.

Saw that one myself after I took the pictures Smile

Keith

11-06-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 41
Post ID: 8744
Reply to: 8738
... forgot to mention...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks for your comments, Roman.

You're someway right... Goto foolishness;-))) maybe... also Mingsu wrote he "never" saw such a (Keith's - or mine) way to use S-150 mid-low horn... everyone's - me too, also with some doubt - copycatting each other, or, simply and lazy, doing like everyone's doing.

Flat Earth syndrome;-)

... I forgot to mention the following: after some months I only used a passive 4-ways crossover with a single WE 300B, transformers-coupled, I returned to multiamping and active crossover.

Months ago I left the old Pioneer D-23 active crossover on a shelf, after a direct comparison passive/single-amping vs. active/multi-amping, because I found the passive x-over sound more relaxed and natural.

Some days ago, I re-installed the Goto CF-1 active crossover (fixed x-frequencies: 220/1000/5000 hz) with the full plethora of my amps: 2 x WE300B/Partridge tranformers on mid-high horn, 2 x WE300B7274B7311B transformers-coupled on mid-low, WE421A on high and Hiraga 20W Class A on bass.

More than fiddling, sweating, puffing on speakers positioning, I, sort of, rediscovered the plus and joys of active multiamping... yes, it's a mess of double ON/OFF procedure, quite boring, BUT I hear more fluidity and effortlessly in sound, less blurring on large scale music (orchestral, Miles', ECM, etc.) and more clarity on solo music (lute, viola da gamba, etc.).

Let's go ahead...

Cheers.


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
11-06-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kcct82
Beijing, China
Posts 23
Joined on 09-08-2008

Post #: 42
Post ID: 8745
Reply to: 8744
Ah ha, so it's 220hz
fiogf49gjkf0d
Some days ago, I re-installed the Goto CF-1 active crossover (fixed x-frequencies: 220/1000/5000 hz) with the full plethora of my amps....

I guess Goto's recommendation is to cross at 220hz then... although 300hz seems to sound better.

I haven't tried positioning S150 horn the way other goto users have done, but I'm keeping mine in a straight line. My goal is to put a 50hz-60hz straight ROUND horn on top shooting down from the "second floor" (you can see the 2nd floor from the previous pictures). And of course trash the 15" i'm using and replace with sealed subs.

Keith

11-06-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-22-2007

Post #: 43
Post ID: 8747
Reply to: 8745
S150 horn crossover at 200Hz
fiogf49gjkf0d
The current suggestion from GOTO is to crossover at 200Hz with S150 horn.  Of course, you can crossover higher but what are you going to use to cover 220Hz down?  If you choose to use the bass horn, you do want to keep it crossover low.  In my experience, even with SG146LD4, the crossover should not higher than 200Hz which S150 will take over.  As I said, if you have the room by all means do everything by the book. If you do not have the room, you need to find way to comproise to fit.  I have spent a lot of time discuss with Mr. GOTO on the same subject and 200Hz is what he recommended for S150 + SG505TT.  Hope this help and good luck.  If you need help on the bass horn, email me.  I will be in Asia(HK and China) next month and will be glad to visit you if schedule allow.
11-06-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 8748
Reply to: 8745
Common sense horns without GOTOnization :-)
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Kcct82 wrote:
I know you're not a big fan of digital delay, but I'm using behringer DCX 2496 to make things easier... this way I get to keep all horn mouths on the same plane which avoids some reflections (from other horn mouths).

So, you use DCX 2496 for deals but not for crossovering and your crossovers are still on analog domain, right?

 Kcct82 wrote:

I don't know what the advantage would be, can you explain a little? Thanks

I do not have time now go into details but generally using horns like your wider and with more decoupling from back wall create many great advantages. One of the most prominent is a depth of imaging (not even depth geometrical but rather the “quality of death”), proper curvature of back image, more proper imaging allocation, proper spread of dynamics within imaging, minimization of loudspeaker-crosstalk and introduction more binaural effects into stereo reproduction, minimization of horn’s reentry colorations and  many others…

 twogoodears wrote:

... I forgot to mention the following: after some months I only used a passive 4-ways crossover with a single WE 300B, transformers-coupled, I returned to multiamping and active crossover.

Months ago I left the old Pioneer D-23 active crossover on a shelf, after a direct comparison passive/single-amping vs. active/multi-amping, because I found the passive x-over sound more relaxed and natural.

Some days ago, I re-installed the Goto CF-1 active crossover (fixed x-frequencies: 220/1000/5000 hz) with the full plethora of my amps: 2 x WE300B/Partridge tranformers on mid-high horn, 2 x WE300B7274B7311B transformers-coupled on mid-low, WE421A on high and Hiraga 20W Class A on bass.

More than fiddling, sweating, puffing on speakers positioning, I, sort of, rediscovered the plus and joys of active multiamping... yes, it's a mess of double ON/OFF procedure, quite boring, BUT I hear more fluidity and effortlessly in sound, less blurring on large scale music (orchestral, Miles', ECM, etc.) and more clarity on solo music (lute, viola da gamba, etc.).

If you have multi ways playback with 4 amps then there is more sophisticated way to drive the channels then active crossover or passive from one amp. I am taking about line-level passive – the way how it shell be done ultimately. With GOTO it might be complex as the most like would like to use high order crossovers for their drivers (another sores of GOTO foolishness). The high order might be also accomplish at line level (with greater difficulties though) but I do not buy the notion of high-order crossovering anyhow…

 Kcct82 wrote:
My goal is to put a 50hz-60hz straight ROUND horn on top shooting down from the "second floor" (you can see the 2nd floor from the previous pictures). And of course trash the 15" i'm using and replace with sealed subs.

Yep, the 50hz-60hz straight horn is the goal, isn’t it? Might I ask you what you feel that it needs to be invariably round horn? You do have the proper 150Hz horn at the bottom of your system and it will “ground” the upper-bass imaging to the vertical center. So, your 50hz horn most likely will be sharp-crossover at top knee. If so then roundness of this horn might be no justifiable from cost-per-transaction perspective.  I defiantly do not advocate rectangular horn over round horn but the rectangular bass horn do have own advantages: they sampler and might be positioned closer to MF, they might be better coupleable to boundaries, they require much less blood to make and to maintain them…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-06-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-22-2007

Post #: 45
Post ID: 8750
Reply to: 8748
GOTO recommend 1st order crossover
fiogf49gjkf0d
GOTO always recommend to use 1st order active crossover and 2nd order passive crossover. The reason to use 2nd order for passive crossover is to protect the driver.  Of course, the user can use whatever they like the best but the recommendation from GOTO is as above.
FYI - GOTO driver spec. for input is Max. 5W.
11-06-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 8751
Reply to: 8750
Ming, now “new” these GOTO views?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 MINGSU wrote:
GOTO always recommend to use 1st order active crossover and 2nd order passive crossover. The reason to use 2nd order for passive crossover is to protect the driver. Of course, the user can use whatever they like the best but the recommendation from GOTO is as above. FYI - GOTO driver spec. for input is Max. 5W.
Hm, interesting. A few years ago I spoke with a guy who posed himself as heavy GOTO/ALE user and he informed me that GOTO/ALE insist to use only 4th order crossovers with their drivers. Then I read the same in few other sources including their justification why they want 4th order. I always was laughing with their high-order crossovers logic, in fact their demands for 4th order was one of the reasons why I never tried GOTO/ALE 7-8 years back when I actively experimented with compression drivers – I just never thought that people so dumb and deaf up to the point that they can’t understand high-order crossover’s problems are tuned-enough to make good divers. Perhaps they changed their views and their ways during those years… The 5W power handling is good though…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-06-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-22-2007

Post #: 47
Post ID: 8752
Reply to: 8751
I knew who you are talking about
fiogf49gjkf0d

Mr. GOTO is a very shy person and does not want to force his view to others.  But when asked, he always gives his best answer from his experience.  When his customers want to try something different from his recommendation, he will encourage them to experience themselves and make judgement with their own ears.  As you know, people have different hearing and perspective on what they like to hear and what they prefer to hear.  As far as I know, Mr. GOTO has never recommended anything other than 1st order active and 2nd order passive.

11-09-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kcct82
Beijing, China
Posts 23
Joined on 09-08-2008

Post #: 48
Post ID: 8782
Reply to: 8748
Thanks for all the great suggestions
fiogf49gjkf0d
So, you use DCX 2496 for deals but not for crossovering and your crossovers are still on analog domain, right?

Romy, I do everything in the digital domain so I use DCX 2496 as my crossover as well (but analog SS pro amps). I know you're no big fan of digital crossovers, can you point to where I can study the advantage of passive crossovers over digital? I've only taken audio seriously a few years ago so I really don't know much... thanks.

I do not have time now go into details but generally using horns like your wider and with more decoupling from back wall create many great advantages. One of the most prominent is a depth of imaging (not even depth geometrical but rather the “quality of death”), proper curvature of back image, more proper imaging allocation, proper spread of dynamics within imaging, minimization of loudspeaker-crosstalk and introduction more binaural effects into stereo reproduction, minimization of horn’s reentry colorations and  many others…

Thanks, that's enough reasons for me to have to try it out

Yep, the 50hz-60hz straight horn is the goal, isn’t it? Might I ask you what you feel that it needs to be invariably round horn? You do have the proper 150Hz horn at the bottom of your system and it will “ground” the upper-bass imaging to the vertical center. So, your 50hz horn most likely will be sharp-crossover at top knee. If so then roundness of this horn might be no justifiable from cost-per-transaction perspective.  I defiantly do not advocate rectangular horn over round horn but the rectangular bass horn do have own advantages: they sampler and might be positioned closer to MF, they might be better coupleable to boundaries, they require much less blood to make and to maintain them…

Well... like I said above I don't understand much about audio/horns, but I was getting great results with round horns so I thought I'd do the same with 50hz horn. You're right that the 50hz horn will be "sharp-crossover at top knee" so perhaps I'll start another thread and discuss more about it when the time comes. (I have a +10db gain at 50hz due to left/right walls being 21'8" apart I'm hoping that somehow I can use that to an advantage when I make the horns.)

Keith

 
11-09-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kcct82
Beijing, China
Posts 23
Joined on 09-08-2008

Post #: 49
Post ID: 8783
Reply to: 8750
Nice to have you on this thread
fiogf49gjkf0d
MingSu

Thanks for all the info, you're definitely providing some long awaited for answers for us english speaking Goto users. I've started a thread about Goto's 8" woofer on this site, perhaps you can go over there and give us some info...

http://goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=8695#8695

Thanks

Keith
11-09-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-22-2007

Post #: 50
Post ID: 8787
Reply to: 8783
Sure...more talk about GOTO
fiogf49gjkf0d
Keith,

Any chance that I can visit you to hear your system?  I will be glad to answer any of your GOTO question.

Ming
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