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  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2929504  03-28-2010
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2146869  07-26-2009
02-17-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zztop7
Edmonds, WA
Posts 40
Joined on 11-02-2012
Post #: 26
Post ID: 22505
Reply to: 22502
Happiness
fiogf49gjkf0d
I wish for you a very, merry, private man-cave for a few hours each week.  Good for the brain.  zz.
02-17-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 27
Post ID: 22506
Reply to: 22502
Various Stages of Young
fiogf49gjkf0d
The great thing is, you will (sooner than you can possibly imagine) have a house full of individuals. If you are lucky, your kids will hang out at your place with their friends. I actually bought and kept stocked an extra refrigerator when my kids were teens, and we lived at the beach. I played Musicals and Pink Floyd for the kids. Be smart now, while Thomas is vulnerable, and assume he will be driven by curiosity. We always talked to our kids more or less like they were adults, but no negotiating on who has the last word. Eat your meals together and talk. The main thing for you now is, keep Thomas safe, but allow him to size things up, as well. My son literally climbed the drapes before he could walk, and I managed to keep my gear safe and him alive, and you will do this, too. I think you will see that the hi-fi takes the back seat, and almost certainly so for the others in your family, so I would plan accordingly.


Best regards,
Paul S
02-18-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 28
Post ID: 22507
Reply to: 22459
Hm, another midbass horn idea in new listening room?
fiogf49gjkf0d
As we are looking for our new home I am slowly simmering in my mind the ideas about new midbass horns. It is not that I am short for ideas but I am not sure that I will take my family on a bumpy and costly ride to build new horns. One way or another it was somewhere $20K, many months of dedicated labor or love and I do not want if I want NOW dedicate myself to it. The readers of my site do remember that period of my life stated from the thread “Midbass Horns and Real Estate” in 2009 and ended up with that kinky attic implementation that I enjoy now and I am so proud and it was a brilliant ides in my typically-humble opinion. 
 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_Images/Horns_At_attic.JPG  
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_Images/HornsOnAttic_1.jpg 
 
The biggest obstacle to my new midbass horn is not even all above but a feeling that I will hardly will be able again to make my midbass horn as hidden as I did at my current listening room and I certainly do not want to contaminate my new family home with new conspicuous 40 feet evidences of my high-end audio madness. Well, I am saying it and at the same time a new idea is brewing in my head. Here is what I am thinking. 
 
The idea of make a midbass invisible is not properly formulated. Invisibility is not objective but rather the objective is that the horns should be not on my way. I have proposed before that the space between tall sealing and top of the horns is never used for anything and I remember Jessie well depicted it. 
 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_Images/Ideal_setup_03.jpg 
 
Now, let to play along with those lines. As now Amy and I are slowly smoldering in our heads one particular house that we saw before and will be having a second viewing this week. There are many thing that we like there many that we do not but the intricate subject in context of this site is that the house has a cathedral ceilings room of an “interesting” (for my objective) profile. I is not pointy but rather has 2 chords, look at the image below. The room is not so large but very nicely integrated with the rest of house and the vaulted ceilings makes small but nice.  So, my idea is to locate the playback perpendicular (!!!) to the cathedral main beam and to use a natural curvature of room wall to write an profile of my midbass horn. The opening of the horn will happen at the location where it will not bother anybody. Furthermore, with proper coloring of the wall and the horn mouths it might be possible to make it pretty. 
MidbassUsingRoomCurve.jpg
 At the sketch above the MF horns are in grey and the ULF channels in green. The Blue is the midbass horn. It starts from long thin neck that might sit behind the ULF channel and then, when the exponential profile begin to open up it will over the ULF box and opening up to unused space above the main speaker. The benefits are very obvious: I can do 40-50Hz horn with no waste of usable footprint in a room and the cost of such horn will be very low as I re-use half of the horn as an existing wall (that obviously need to be beefed up). The problem that I see is only around a direct radiation of midbass and time alignment. I am thinking how to deal with it but the whole notion of the concept is very intriguing.
 
 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-18-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 29
Post ID: 22508
Reply to: 22507
Bent Bass and Double Doors
fiogf49gjkf0d
Looks smart. How high (in frequency) can you go before the bend has an audible effect? If it is an issue, could it be "mitigated" by adjusting your upper bass driver?

Meanwhile, I was thinking that something like double doors (or sets of double doors) to the listening room could make it either public or private.


Paul S
02-18-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 30
Post ID: 22509
Reply to: 22507
Using the real estate
fiogf49gjkf0d
I  have just started thinking of something like this for midbass/ULF:  floor firing one-eigth horn (TuneAudio Anima inspired) with the scanspeak array (in green) attached to the side.




There is the obvious problem of time alignment, but I can see no way around the problem other than a digital delay.  With the two channels joined and with one of them positioned so they are physically time aligned (with any luck) then at least the footprint is a little smaller.  

The other option with your midbass horns of your previous diagram is to corner-load them and use two walls and the ceiling as extensions of the horn.  In this way you may be able to get away with an eighth-mouth horn, rather than a quarter-mouth.
02-21-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008
Post #: 31
Post ID: 22510
Reply to: 22507
Through the roof
fiogf49gjkf0d
The narrow portion of the midbass horn is surely begging to be inside a chimney, or a structure made to look like one, protruding through the roof. I am sure birds nesting on the back chamber will not impair its functionality, though it may be a pain to move them when you have to change the driver.
02-22-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010
Post #: 32
Post ID: 22511
Reply to: 22510
Sideways
fiogf49gjkf0d
Just a couple of notes here. In my experience downfiring, or upfiring for that matter, woofers is not a good idea, the coil has to lift the full weight of the cone in order to move it and this slows things down, instead of just pushing them back and forth: it is clearly noticeable. I built a pair of horns that could be used either way, clearly sideways was better by far than downfiring.

Smaller kids learn fast, but remember they will have play dates! One of my kid´s playdates broke the cantilever on my Cartridge, I didn't even thought about telling the mother about it...
Then kids grow up and there is homework and reading hours, and music being played all the time does not allow full concentration. On the other side, a little older kids love to have a hang out where they can have some privacy, the sound room works wonderfully:
02-24-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 33
Post ID: 22513
Reply to: 22459
If not a midbass horn?
fiogf49gjkf0d
It is so funny. As Kitty and I are looking for different houses we look at different listening rooms and we have different ways to think about room sizes. She think about space for her piano and size of oriental ran she would drop on the floor. When I am thinking about room size I am thinking mostly about ability of LF channel Melquiades to stay in class A. 
 
After seeing many properties I slightly changed my mind about the room I would like to have:  I do not want now large room. I rather want a moderate room but nicely integrated/isolated in the rest of house. I did sea few examples and I like it a lot. The Idea is that the room is kind of isolated but has an open access to anything else and do not feel like dedicated. As now I am thinking about 500 sq feet room. I do not think that I will go initials for midbass horn: I will have a lot on my plate this year. So it will be bass array towers to drive the room LF. The key question is what will be driving the bass array towers? I am not sure that Melquiades LF channel will be able to drive 500 sq feet room that has open escape for LF. So, I would need more power or perhaps preferably another channel. I might let my current arrays to care midbass where Milq will be able still help and then introduce another ULF (perhaps with 4 Aura 18 drivers). Or I might let my current array to care the ULF and then make another midbass direct radiator channel. Both directions will be fine to me with my very little bias to second solution. It might be interesting to make another set of bass array on the same Scan Speak drivers that I like so much or it might be with to go with vintage drivers. I do not exactly have experience to make good midbass with direct radiator, perhaps I need to experiment and to learn. 
 
I know for sure that I would like to separate Midbass and lower bass. Well, let see how it goes… We are currently negotiation a property that we like and if our offer get accepted then I will know more what kind room I will have. It very much might be the last listening room I will ever have… Aren’t we all tell to ourselves this?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-24-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 34
Post ID: 22514
Reply to: 22513
What Comes Naturally
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, perhaps your ScanSpeak arrays are a +/- natural fit for mid-bass? If you used them for that you might also push them down a little until you got your ULF solution. The "nice" thing about this is, you might use something relatively simple to drive the ULF, also the ULF box(es) might even be fairly "small", and it/they might wind up anywhere, meaning, you would not necessarily have to put those speakers right out with the others.

Good luck with your offer!


Best regards,
Paul
02-24-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 35
Post ID: 22515
Reply to: 22514
It will be probably two bass channels.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
Romy, perhaps your ScanSpeak arrays are a +/- natural fit for mid-bass? If you used them for that you might also push them down a little until you got your ULF solution. The "nice" thing about this is, you might use something relatively simple to drive the ULF, also the ULF box(es) might even be fairly "small", and it/they might wind up anywhere, meaning, you would not necessarily have to put those speakers right out with the others.

Good luck with your offer!
I do not feel that ScanSpeak arrays are natural fit for mid-bass. Since they, in context of a larger room, will be exert more then I use them before (when I did not have midbass horns) then I feel that hay might be not as good as before. I might be mistaken but it would be nice to use paper suspended drivers for Midbass. Anyhow, I do know that I most likely will not be able to cover from one array the lower and midbass channels in larger room. It would be nice if I were but it won’t happens…

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-24-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 36
Post ID: 22517
Reply to: 22515
In That Case...
fiogf49gjkf0d
To be clear, I did not see the ScanSpeak arrays as more than mid-bass possibilities, at least over the long haul. However, only you know the room, so really just tossing it out there with respect to mid-bass power capabilities of those arrays. With more power on hand, I generally think of 15" paper drivers for mid/upper bass, and "how many" depends on the size of the room, openings, treatments, etc. But with 15" drivers and big rooms also comes "back EMF"... To avoid the "soupy" bass in a big rooms might take several drivers, and some power. Any way you look at it, one gets fewer octaves/driver at LF.



Paul S
02-26-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 37
Post ID: 22520
Reply to: 22515
The game is on.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ok, we have a first step through, our offer is accepted. I do have a very clear picture what my new listening room will be. For now I do not see any midbass horns, kind of step back but it will be other areas of advancement about which I care more for now. There is a twist in that new home – this is a type of home where we want live to the rest of our lives and it means we will not be planning to return to your current home. That makes me to say bye-bye to our current listening room, the great midbass horns and to the rest that was done in the house. It will be for sure a sentimental leaving probably with adagio from B7 playing… 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-26-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 38
Post ID: 22521
Reply to: 22520
Mazel Tov!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Good for you! God bless your family and your new home!


Best regards,
Paul S
02-26-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010
Post #: 39
Post ID: 22522
Reply to: 22521
Great news
fiogf49gjkf0d
Congratulations! I wish the best for you and your family in this new move.

The little apartment you had downtown sounded phenomenal with the arrays doing bass. Maybe just double up on those? Taking the infra bass from them will let them breath better too. Like you said make a separate channel for infra bass with those crazy Aura drivers?

Maybe its time to get a dog?
02-26-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mats
Chicago
Posts 85
Joined on 09-18-2005
Post #: 40
Post ID: 22523
Reply to: 22522
Wonderful!
fiogf49gjkf0d
In Vedic time it was said that
"Only when you feel joy do you sacrifice. 
You must not sacrifice when you are prey to suffering. 
Sacrifice only when you feel joy. 
But you have to know joy. 
Joy is fullness."
Surely you are ready for that last B7. 
And many of us will join you to bid a fond farewell of the mighty horns,
and offer you much gratitude for sharing so generously. 
02-26-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 41
Post ID: 22524
Reply to: 22522
I think it will be better with time.
fiogf49gjkf0d
When we were looking and negotiating this house it was the last seen from Tarkovsky’s Solaris always in my mind, the one where Chris understands eventually that his father, and his home, and the pond are just “gest” that were inspired by Ocean energy… and he did not care...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jorf-2o5YfU

I think it will be a great home for our family. I also home that it might be interesting for audio. As in my current listening room I will have no auditable neighbors. An integrated listening room will get converted into entertaining listening room. We will poos pool but gain a lake, so it will be the same + many small people around those loudspeakers… No it will be no dog, which is explicitly prohibited by our perpetual agreement. There is another very interesting aspect. The town we are moving is very none-industrial. There is nothing in there, not even gas stations. It might make electricity to be very nice naturally….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-26-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 42
Post ID: 22525
Reply to: 22524
Gaddis House
fiogf49gjkf0d
In Wm. Gaddis' tragi-comedy, "A Frolic of His Own", intervals and cycles of Time are "measured" first by meals, then by the appearance(s) of their pond. I love having a body of water at hand, and a lake or pond will be much less corrosive to hi-fi gear than the ocean,


Paul S
02-27-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 43
Post ID: 22526
Reply to: 22525
Congratulations!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Congratulations for your new home.

Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
03-01-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 44
Post ID: 22527
Reply to: 22524
View vs. Practicality
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have been thinking how to position my playback in my new listening room. It is a cathedral ceiling with chopped top and the room is set in a way that I can do both positioning of playback: along the room center beam and perpendicular to it.  That is not so simple question. I do not have any sonic and acoustic considerations for now and I presume that both will work. 
 
If I position Macondo across the room then I would have great benefit that the equipment rock can go between the speakers with multiple benefits of this setting. If I put Macondo channels along the room then they will go on the side of 4 windows I have in the middle with all nice lake view behind. Well, that would put all equipment to a separate location and will it hard to isolate it from kid/s. Adding to the mix the fact the Amy want to put a fireplace in there, to have a large drop in scree and be able to accommodate a large party of people for movie/opera events make the selection not easy…

Romy

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-01-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 45
Post ID: 22528
Reply to: 22527
Multi-Tasking
fiogf49gjkf0d
It's nice having a view from the listening room, but I seem to naturally close my eyes a lot when really tuning in, and this is true for me even at the symphony hall. People love to put a fireplace smack in the middle of a view, and the TV above the fireplace, that sort of thing. I've done lots of rooms like this for other people, but I don't get it. I do have a view window behind my speakers now, with equipment also on the "view wall" and on the floor, between the speakers and under the window sill, and I have a large fireplace on a side wall that I pretty much ignore. There would also be a nice view out that way, and beautiful sunset views, except for the giant fireplace. Oh, well, I did not build it. Another factor might be cable runs. It might be useful to plan "the best" option for one thing at a time, then let the subconscious mind "come up with a solution" for the lot. It is very great if you can put the speakers on either axis, but I am not the Swiss Army Knife guy.


Best regards,
Paul S
03-01-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 46
Post ID: 22529
Reply to: 22528
Exactly!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
It's nice having a view from the listening room, but I seem to naturally close my eyes a lot when really tuning in
That is exactly my point. I love the view but I am not sure that I want to see it while I am listening. I might love it to have as my side view that is why I am biasing to have Macondo to be across the room. That is not definitive feeling however…

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-01-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 47
Post ID: 22530
Reply to: 22527
Equipment between speakers...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

If I position Macondo across the room then I would have great benefit that the equipment rock can go between the speakers with multiple benefits of this setting. 
Romy


Romy, what do you see as the benefits of having your gear between the speakers...because I can see none?  The last thing that I would want to look at is all the electronics plus there are the reflection issues of the gear in that location messing up imaging and it means bringing the speakers further into the room.  In my experience, for sound quality, by far the best position for the equipment is off to the side (in a bass null) or in another room entirely, so I would be extremely reluctant to have them between my speakers. 

Anthony
03-01-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 48
Post ID: 22531
Reply to: 22530
Top Gear
fiogf49gjkf0d
Anthony, I can't answer for Romy, but short cables are one (big) advantage of "centered" equipment. As for pulling speakers away from the back (and side) walls, don't most "big sounding" speakers require this, anyway? Sure, a "bass null" for equipment is nice, too, and in a large-ish room there might well be an OK area between the speakers. It's only in the last ~10 years that I've used remote controls (CD and pre-amp), but now that I have them I would also prefer to keep those in play.

Best regards,
Paul S
03-01-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 49
Post ID: 22532
Reply to: 22530
I see no problems with "between".
fiogf49gjkf0d
 anthony wrote:
Romy, what do you see as the benefits of having your gear between the speakers...because I can see none?  The last thing that I would want to look at is all the electronics plus there are the reflection issues of the gear in that location messing up imaging and it means bringing the speakers further into the room.  In my experience, for sound quality, by far the best position for the equipment is off to the side (in a bass null) or in another room entirely, so I would be extremely reluctant to have them between my speakers. 
Anthony, the rock located in a middle gives a great advantage of shortest and symmetric cables. I do not think there are any reflection issues with equipment in the middle. In fact it is opposite: a pile of equipment make a great diffuser. Yes, the speakers need to be further into the room but not because equipment but because Macondo topology - it must be well extended forward. There is one more reasons: if the  equipment is "between" the speakers then the whole audio area might be easily to fence out, that is not last factor in my life now.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-01-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 50
Post ID: 22533
Reply to: 22532
Oh well...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Anthony, the rock located in a middle gives a great advantage of shortest and symmetric cables.


But it is only the interconnects to the amplifiers that need to be longer...no others...speaker cables stay as is...all cables into the preamp stay as is.  Longer interconnects is not an issue in any way that I know of...but I would prefer longer interconnects than longer speaker cables.


 Romy the Cat wrote:
I do not think there are any reflection issues with equipment in the middle. In fact it is opposite: a pile of equipment make a great diffuser. Yes, the speakers need to be further into the room but not because equipment but because Macondo topology - it must be well extended forward.


Between the speakers we generally want even broad band diffusion for best results and at best a rack will give a little bit of random diffusion in narrow bands.  A dedicated wide band diffuser is likely to give better results.  

Romy, your rack is large and heavy and shaped like a 'wall' so by putting it between the speakers you are effectively moving the back wall forwards according to what the speakers will 'see' which might cause Macondo to need to be further into the room by an amount equivalent to the width of your rack.  This may or not be an issue in your situation depending on the size of your room...it is a problem in my situation.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

There is one more reasons: if the  equipment is "between" the speakers then the whole audio area might be easily to fence out, that is not last factor in my life now.


Well, yes, that could be a very good reason in your situation.  My kids are older, and now quite well trained in regards to the audio stuff, so a little different situation, but I still plan to integrate DSET on the frame of my Macondo with embedded speaker cables and rely on long interconnects from my source gear that is situated elsewhere in the room.

Please note that I am not 'arguing' my point, rather fleshing out the reasons for my suggestions.
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  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2929504  03-28-2010
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2146869  07-26-2009
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