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03-01-2016

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miab
Canada
Posts 46
Joined on 02-07-2008

Post #:	51
Post ID:	22534
Reply to:	22529

Wall of nature

Romy the Cat wrote:
Paul S wrote:
It's nice having a view from the listening room, but I seem to naturally close my eyes a lot when really tuning in
That is exactly my point. I love the view but I am not sure that I want to see it while I am listening. I might love it to have as my side view that is why I am biasing to have Macondo to be across the room. That is not definitive feeling however…

That wall is just begging for a floor to ceiling window/s to extend the daytime listening room into nature. If you do it smartly you can have large opening windows directly behind speakers which help in rear reflections although they be already minimized with upper horns. In the evening with a dark night you will not see anything outside in even a dimly lit room. I can think of a few recordings that I would save for daytime listening looking upon this nature. When those windows were put in either economy or furniture placement was the deciding factor. A view like that HAS to be seen and when appropriate can be closed with window treatments in the day. Think wall of glass.

03-01-2016

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Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #:	52
Post ID:	22535
Reply to:	22534

Big Window

Having a big window in front at night it becomes like a big mirror, some might get self conscious about it! JA The thing about glass is that it eats up bass and reflects highs like crazy, having said that, some of the best rooms I listened to, had big huge windows behind the speakers, you just need to measure and tune.
In a small room it is better to place the rack to the side, IMHO. In a bigger room the center of course offers better cabling options. Speakers should always be as far into the room as possible. But there are so many other things involved in audio that are probably even more important, like time alignment, multiamping, even perfect speaker placement.

03-01-2016

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	53
Post ID:	22536
Reply to:	22534

Shades and Night Vision

Funny, but I also have a nice view (lots of lights) at night and, depending on the moon, it can be pretty compelling. Also, "effects" can be created with lighting. Although I often close my eyes when listening, the view definitely makes the room a nice place to be. I would not want a fireplace or a TV in the way of the view. I do not like the "sound of glass" behind speakers, however. I do have Venetian blinds there, but I believe I could do better than what I have. I think wooden blinds would be better, and one might put vertical wooden blinds if there are doors. This sort of blind "works" as a "diffuser" even when it is open enough to see the view. Again, one specific type might work better or worse than another specific type.

Best regards,
Paul S

03-01-2016

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	54
Post ID:	22537
Reply to:	22533

...they do image wonderfully...

anthony wrote:
But it is only the interconnects to the amplifiers that need to be longer...no others...speaker cables stay as is...all cables into the preamp stay as is. Longer interconnects is not an issue in any way that I know of...but I would prefer longer interconnects than longer speaker cables.

In my case it is never longer speaker cables as amps stay with speakers, always. I have 4M vintage Dominus that is many thousand dollars and not obtainable anymore. Wish side rock positioning I need to compliment one side with inferior cable.

anthony wrote:
etween the speakers we generally want even broad band diffusion for best results and at best a rack will give a little bit of random diffusion in narrow bands. A dedicated wide band diffuser is likely to give better results.

Romy, your rack is large and heavy and shaped like a 'wall' so by putting it between the speakers you are effectively moving the back wall forwards according to what the speakers will 'see' which might cause Macondo to need to be further into the room by an amount equivalent to the width of your rack.

Possibly but I do not view my equipment as a wall of boxes. They rather a random boxes with great extension from the back wall. I do think that it is great to have infinite wall between the speaker but let face it- it never happens unless you use two mini-monitor on toll stands... and they do image wonderfully....

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-02-2016

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	55
Post ID:	22538
Reply to:	22459

Another attic project?

I was wondering: if I lose my midbass and will use for now my bass town to do midbass then how can I introduce lower octave channel of I want to make a room civilized? For instance if I go do 2-4 Aura drivers on transition slope then I will end up with 2 LF sections of the size a large subzero refrigerator each. I do not want to have it in my listening room.

I got an idea today. My Cathedral ceiling it truncated atop and has a profile like on the picture. There is a small attic atop (black on the picture), much smaller then depicted. So, I wonder if I put in there a few Aura driver in infinite baffle configuration. I think the ceiling is 13-14’ high, approximately the same distance I plane to be from the spacers, so it would become time-aligned. I presume that the quality of construction is OK in there and if not then I can put a fat and solid baffle to mound drivers. Did anybody load the heavy woofers into a regular building structure? It does sound as an interesting idea…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-02-2016

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zztop7
Edmonds, WA
Posts 40
Joined on 11-02-2012

Post #:	56
Post ID:	22539
Reply to:	22538

Infinite baffle

I researched infinite baffle Sleep

and was going to do an install at our previous home. We moved just before starting the project. There is very good info on the net. If you want, I can do a deep paper-work search to see if I can locate the info. on the drivers [maybe 18 inch] I settled on. Infinite baffles done properly are great.zz.

03-02-2016

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Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #:	57
Post ID:	22540
Reply to:	22538

IB

Sounds Very interesting, If you can change the loose insulation in there for Cellulose, it is supposedly much better sound wise than fiberglass. It would also help to avoid leakage of bass to other parts of the house through the attic, if that is possible. Weight would be a concern of course, as well as time alignment, you would need to move all the horns to dial in the bass since the IB would be fixed.

03-02-2016

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zztop7
Edmonds, WA
Posts 40
Joined on 11-02-2012

Post #:	58
Post ID:	22541
Reply to:	22540

Mold

Jorge wrote:
If you can change the loose insulation in there for Cellulose,

Cellulose is a product that MOLD can feed upon. Some cellulose is now treated to prevent mold; do NOT count on it. zz.

03-02-2016

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	59
Post ID:	22542
Reply to:	22541

Attic Ventilation

Since "mold" has come up, be sure the rafter bays are properly ventilated when you're done. They usually tie to the attic space in cases like this, then the attic space is ventilated. There are ways to do this properly if the attic is "bypassed", and it's a bad idea to ignore it.

Paul S

03-03-2016

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noviygera

Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #:	60
Post ID:	22543
Reply to:	22538

Possible

I had a similar setup with an IB subwoofer, 2x18" woofers, behind the listening area -- also time aligned. It's works ok. But it will excite the entire house structure if you play loud -- you can be sure. Everyone will feel it. But that's not the issue. The issue for me was I was able to localize the bass if it's crossed over too high, above 80hz. And at that time I used Edgar 80hz horns.If you use the scan speak towers for midbass down to 60hz, this will be a good solution for bass. I'm still unable to get that quality of bass in my new room and now I'm using 4x1808 aura in the factory PA boxes. I miss it in that respect.Gera

03-03-2016

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	61
Post ID:	22544
Reply to:	22538

Just strategizing

Well, I did not crawl to the specific attic area where it might be done. Hell, I did not close the house yet - it will be in distant May. I am just strategizing…

Hypothetically the problem with infinite baffle would be that drivers exposed to temperature and most of attic. With driver looking down gravity will bias suspension. So, I think the best would be to enclose drivers in large box. That would in addition minimize that house structure excitement as if something got ringy at high volumes then it will be pain in ass to find and fix it. The next think is the size. The joists are 12” or 16” apart but the drivers are 18”. It is possible to cut joists and to build two bridges but I am not sure that it would not compromise the structure of the roof. I think better bet would be to put between two joists a large 16 feet baffle of 3”-4” thick. In the baffle might host 10-12 my favorite Scan-Speak 10” drivers per channels. They to put a sarcophagus atop of the baffle, not sure if it should be sealed or juts temperature/moisture controlling enclosure.

The bass towel would run down to 30-40Hz in my estimation and the ceiling channels would kick in at 20Hz-25Hz in transition slope. What I wonder: if I have such a channel at ceiling at 20Hz then should I go mono? I personally based to go R and L on side ceilings but this would require to know if the playback will be along or across the room’s axis.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-03-2016

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zztop7
Edmonds, WA
Posts 40
Joined on 11-02-2012

Post #:	62
Post ID:	22545
Reply to:	22544

Normal orientation

Romy, the drivers would NOT be facing down in a properly built infinite baffle. Google: infinite baffle subwoofer & then go to IMAGES to get a fast idea of installations. It is all extremely NOT complicated. The joists would not have to be cut, but it would be wise to double or triple them to the outside with extremely high quality joist material Glued [Sika Construction Adhesive is excellent] & Screwed. Paul S mentioned attic ventilation. A properly vented attic should NOT have a problem with moisture or extreme heat. If the individual rafter bays are not vented at the soffits, then you probably have gable vents that could even be enlarged or doubled if necessary. Inspect all contractors' work. Another thing: most attic access is not built properly. That would be the first thing to improve or add to. Another thing: once you have a solid plan of action, then you can determine if attic walk/crawl planks would be added. zz.P.S. you probably should have bought next door to me; that would be easier.

03-03-2016

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	63
Post ID:	22546
Reply to:	22545

Confusion.

zztop7 wrote:
Romy, the drivers would NOT be facing down in a properly built infinite baffle.

You did not erectly understand what I proposed above, it is OK.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-03-2016

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	64
Post ID:	22547
Reply to:	22546

Specifics

Typical framing would be 16" or 24" on center, with 14 1/2" or 22 1/2" between ceiling joists (or rafters). With "conventional framing" it is usually no big thing to "head out" for openings, and soffit and/or frieze vents plus ridge or near-ridge vents might substitute for gable vents, depending on specifics TBD. Shaking from ULF is another matter. I have seen a "demonstration" where a "sub-woofer" hopped around the floor despite a heavy sculpture atop it. In another, fairly recent thread I mentioned double-walled "theater" boxes. Those I referred to have a space between the walls, and they do "work" for Music. I have long had the dream of using this type of LF enclosure for my 30" drivers (I have cones and motors), if I ever actually build them. As for combining LF channels, as frequencies drop, it seems like all bets are off until one actually tries something. People have told me that an odd number is always better, but I have heard some pretty compelling "stereo" LF installations. Again, ULF is always "another matter".

Paul S

03-03-2016

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	65
Post ID:	22548
Reply to:	22538

Driver Orientation

I just noticed the post on the "facing down drivers". Would this really be such a problem? I think there are plenty of speakers out there that use facing-down drivers that were not "specifically designed" to face down. While I have heard about this, and I have watched out for "cone sagging", I have never actually had a problem with it myself - in over 50 years. Perhaps there is "truth to it", like the "alcohol ruins vinyl" story?

Paul S

03-03-2016

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	66
Post ID:	22549
Reply to:	22547

That all need to be though out.

Paul S wrote:
Shaking from ULF is another matter.

I think if such a woofer “ignites” shaking within the attic then all bets are off and it need to be avoided by all cost. To do “right” thing I would put pneumatic decompiled between the baffle and joists. The space between ceiling and baffle probably need to be sealed with foam. I think the Pneumatic will hold down vibration down to a fraction of hertz. How to assure Pneumatic decoupling and thermo-isolation at the same time I have no idea. That all need to be though out.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-03-2016

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	67
Post ID:	22550
Reply to:	22548

It nigh be a problem

Paul S wrote:
I just noticed the post on the "facing down drivers". Would this really be such a problem? I think there are plenty of speakers out there that use facing-down drivers that were not "specifically designed" to face down. While I have heard about this, and I have watched out for "cone sagging", I have never actually had a problem with it myself - in over 50 years. Perhaps there is "truth to it", like the "alcohol ruins vinyl" story?

It is not accurate. The cone sagging is not a fantasy. Small cones with rubber suspension do not sag. Large and heavy cones with paper suspension that have 50 degree temperature difference and 50% moisture difference between front and back would sag very dramatically. Perhaps it might be a good idea to drive the woofers with minor negative output impedance when they do not play music to balance out the gravity things....

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-03-2016

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noviygera

Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #:	68
Post ID:	22551
Reply to:	22549

Ideas

Maybe make a manifold and mount drivers vertically in push pull. No sagging, much less vibration. But I would not use fiberglass insulation behind the bass channel and remove any existing fiberglass in that area, replace with cotton/denim insulation. I this is a good idea you came up with.

Romy the Cat wrote:
Paul S wrote:
Shaking from ULF is another matter.

I think if such a woofer “ignites” shaking within the attic then all bets are off and it need to be avoided by all cost. To do “right” thing I would put pneumatic decompiled between the baffle and joists. The space between ceiling and baffle probably need to be sealed with foam. I think the Pneumatic will hold down vibration down to a fraction of hertz. How to assure Pneumatic decoupling and thermo-isolation at the same time I have no idea. That all need to be though out.
[/quote

03-03-2016

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Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #:	69
Post ID:	22552
Reply to:	22551

Opposing woofers

About vibration, there is this technology championed by AR9 a few years back and now seems to be everywhere. Opposing woofers, the force cancelling technology says the movement of one driver gets cancelled by the movement of the other and no vibrations (or less) are created.
There is a nice video explanation of the concept here though it is not hard to grasp really.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBmnfpGg7uw

03-03-2016

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	70
Post ID:	22553
Reply to:	22552

Cabinet Size for "Subs"

I like the idea of "opposing drivers", and I like the (proven) notion that extraneous motion will "self-cancel". But aren't these things typically in "smaller" cabinets"? Also, how well do they do "mid-bass"?

Paul S

03-03-2016

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	71
Post ID:	22554
Reply to:	22538

Blow hard

Here is an excellent attic solution that will even allow for output to 1 Hz:
www.rotarywoofer.com

No problems with the suspension sag either!

Romy the Cat wrote:
I was wondering: if I lose my midbass and will use for now my bass town to do midbass then how can I introduce lower octave channel of I want to make a room civilized? For instance if I go do 2-4 Aura drivers on transition slope then I will end up with 2 LF sections of the size a large subzero refrigerator each. I do not want to have it in my listening room.

I got an idea today. My Cathedral ceiling it truncated atop and has a profile like on the picture. There is a small attic atop (black on the picture), much smaller then depicted. So, I wonder if I put in there a few Aura driver in infinite baffle configuration. I think the ceiling is 13-14’ high, approximately the same distance I plane to be from the spacers, so it would become time-aligned. I presume that the quality of construction is OK in there and if not then I can put a fat and solid baffle to mound drivers. Did anybody load the heavy woofers into a regular building structure? It does sound as an interesting idea…

The Cat

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

03-03-2016

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scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #:	72
Post ID:	22555
Reply to:	22554

Phoenix Gold arises from the ashes

I remember reading about a turbine subwoofer 15 years ago called the Phoenix Gold Cyclone or Typhoon. That was for kids in cars.

Tom Danley the inventor had some comments:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/55122-pg-cyclone-non-cone-subdriver.html#post616391

At one time, I thought it would be fun to pick one off ebay for $100 for testing but there were so many DIY repair threads on the internet that I knew trying it for fun meant fixing it first, so I passed.

Here are some images

http://mobileaudioforum.com/forum/showthread.php?3218-Phoenix-Gold-Cyclone-BNIB-Never-Mounted

03-03-2016

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clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #:	73
Post ID:	22556
Reply to:	22554

Couple of things

Depending, somewhat, on the town you're moving into, you'll need to pull a construction permit.

But whether or not you must, it might be a good idea to hire a licensed engineer to okay the mods. That's what I had to do to create my large room out of two smaller. (Bearing walls and all that.)

03-15-2016

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	74
Post ID:	22570
Reply to:	22459

So many thing I need to take under consideration in new listening room...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-15-2016

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noviygera

Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #:	75
Post ID:	22571
Reply to:	22570

That's not a problem :)

I would be most concerned with having the turntable where kids can reach it. This has proven to be very problematic! Son climbing speakers -- not a problem.

Page 3 of 12 (284 items)

Select Pages:

« 1 2 3 4 5 » ... Last »

	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..	Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...	Audio Discussions Forum	478	2929496	03-28-2010
»	New	Midbass Horns and Real Estate...	Just a youtube video......	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	247	2146865	07-26-2009