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05-21-2014

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Stitch

Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #:	1
Post ID:	20857
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High End Munich 2014 impressions ....

Well, as usual, we can read all over what one likes or dislikes....each his own of course. But, we can not read why someone did like or did not like something.
Same for me of course, but it would be helpful to offer a kind of "priority" (or whatever one thinks is important or not). There is a good sentence from G. Holt (Stereophile):

"We've lost our direction....The High End in 1992 is a multi-million-dollar business. But it's an empty triumph, because we haven't accomplished what we set out to do. The playback still doesn't sound 'just like the real thing.'

Audio actually used to have a goal: perfect reproduction of the sound of real music performed in a real space. That was found difficult to achieve, and it was abandoned when most music lovers, who almost never heard anything except amplified music anyway, forgot what "the real thing" had sounded like. Today, "good" sound is whatever one likes.

HE 2014 04.jpg

These (the 4 black ones) were made 1928, the first WE Horns. These are very, very rare, the owner told us. he paid about 100k for shipping to Munich but he will not do it again. Not for the shipping, this doesn't interest him much, but when they got damage, he would not be able to get those again...

Sound was really lifelike, true in tone, for 1000 visitors in a cinema with a 2W amplifier....of course it can't be compared in rooms for one owner with pinpoint imaging, but it was a good performance. A lot of listeners scratched their head and asked themselves, what happened in the last 80 years from "High End" reproduction..... (I know the answer: cheap parts inside covered, no idea from real thing audio but with top finish outside)

HE 2014 06.jpg

HE 2014 07.jpg

HE 2014 08.jpg

Here we had a Demo with Allnic units and an unknown (for me) Horn Speaker

Did it sound lifelike: Not at all. Slow, foggy, no soundstage, no presence, pretty dull overall. I was interested to listen to them, there are some enthusiastic owners in USA for Allnic, I listened to those Pre+Phono 2 years ago in a private System and wasn't impressed, but it was ok. But here it was a real sonic disappointment.

HE 2014 09.jpg

Thorens Reference

Static, no Demo. Was offered from the first owner (talked with him what he thinks about that Turntable....) for sale. Sold for 30k Euros to China, discussion time for the deal: 20s

HE 2014 11.jpg

Kharma Demo, Price: when you have to ask ....

High 6 digits. Did it sound lifelike? No, it was thin but detailed. No holographic body in the reproduction, very static and it became quite boring for me after 3 minutes...simply not the real thing. But great for background music while reading the newspaper.

HE 2014 12.jpg

Vitus Audio. Also very, very expensive, to move the amp I think you need to call 3 neighbours.... Sound: like Kharma

HE 2014 17.jpg

HE 2014 18.jpg

DartZeel electronics with (I think Martens Speakers). I was also interested to listen to those electronics, some at US West coast HE 2014 20.jpg

area think it is the best design after developing the wheel. Price: When you have to ask....High 6 digits: Sound: like a cheap Kemwood System for 2k, thin, bloodless, lifeless static, ho holographic reproduction....I sat there 30 min because I simply could not believe that someone buys that stuff for performance reasons ... I asked the demo man for the 2 red signs in the carpet in front of the amps....."Audiophiles with bloody knees from kneeling in front of it..." :-)

Living voice + Kondo from Great Britain

I didn't even shoot a pic, so I use one from last year and my "opinion" about the Performance abilities didn't change. For 1 million it should be a bit better than static pling-plong-plang...but there are also Fanboys for it ...

Demo with AirForce One, sorry I forgot to shoot a pic but that was a lifelike Performance. Deep Soundstage, Gestalt, holographic body, rightness of tone, sounding like the real thing...I got the impression, the musicians are really in front of me. Expensive but Excellent Demo.

HE 2014 25.jpg

Tannoy Westminster....yes, the Legend

Real 'Thing Sound reproduction: No

Loud: YES

HE 2014 33.jpg

Magico Horns

Well, the Demo man said, we all should thank God (and the Importer) for those here and we should concentrate to the remarkable sound. 6 educated Magico Technicians need one full day to build them up.....

Price: when you have to ask, I think minimum 600k, Soundreproduction: Well, hard to say with movie music and music from outer space but I think, they will find their customers...I thought most of the time...WE stuff from 1928...shit...what happened the last 80 years.....?

Summary: A great Day, really. It started at 10.00, 4h later my tongue felt thick and I decided to leave to go to the best Steak House in Munich, ordered their largest, came back freshly motivated, made more visits and bought the Ultra Sonic Record Cleaning Machine from Klaudio, I thought, "... now it is 4K, probably they add wood panels in piano black in 3 years and demand 14k for it ...."

Kind Regards
Stitch

05-21-2014

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guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #:	2
Post ID:	20858
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Further thoughts

The demonstration of the WE equipment was impressive as was looking closely at how these horns were constructed. The arrangement (originally it would have been mono) was to provide the audience seated both in the stalls or circle with an evenly balanced sound. Both drivers would have been connected in parallel with an attenuator to adjust the output level of the WE13 to suit.
Here they were used as a stereo pair augmented by WE597 tweeters (actually GIP repro units) with a simple cap acting as a high pass & with a large subwoofer off to the right containing a pair of 15" or 18" Lansing units. I heard several different pieces all sounding good but one, a soprano with orchestral accompaniment was spectacular.
I don't expect to have the opportunity to hear a stereo pair of these again so I was thankful for the chance.
I'm surprised that you could deduce too much from the various Tech Das demonstrations (two at the MOC on some awful speakers) and a further one at the alternative show. In both of the MOC cases the speakers/room seemed overwhelmed at low frequencies.
I recently had the opportunity to listen to two Rockport Sirius 3 turntables that were both refurbished by Tim Sheridan shortly before he died. I'd suggest that those stand some way clear of any other design I've had the opportunity to listen to. Certainly no evident shortcomings in the control electronics or even in the tonearm. How much refinement beyond the stock Sirius 3 had been introduced, I don't know. I suspect that those may be the high water mark as far as turntable development goes. I can't see anyone committing the money & knowledge required to advance it further.
It was difficult to appraise the Magico speakers. They didn't play any challenging music through them. The Cessaro speakers sounded far more interesting at RMAF last October. I don't think the room they have at Munich is helping. The Vox Olympians and Tune Audio speakers were more convincing.

05-21-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	3
Post ID:	20860
Reply to:	20857

Thanks, Stitch

Stitch wrote:
Sound was really lifelike, true in tone, for 1000 visitors in a cinema with a 2W amplifier....of course it can't be compared in rooms for one owner with pinpoint imaging, but it was a good performance. A lot of listeners scratched their head and asked themselves, what happened in the last 80 years from reproduction.....

As you know I am not a blind admirer of 80 years old implementations. For sure there some great elements and aspect of sound from 80 years systems but they did not have the "nuance specificity" of contemporary installation. When I talk about "nuance specificity" I do not mean sound but rather the precision or today system accommodation and ability of today system to be exactly what they need to be. I always felt that applying the best components and techniques from past combining with the best techniques today it is possible to get much more interesting result then what was 80 years. What they show for sure has historical and sonic value but if you pay attention what they do today, this stupid Magner-loaded horns is kind of foolishness.

Anyhow, answering your question of what happened in the last 80 years. Two things happens. First is that a faulty knowledge was developed and become dominating, it has to do to a degree with topological and design perspective but in a greater scale it has to do with material. The materials 80 years were much better and were not contaminated with defecations of contemporary civilization. Drive 100 miles from your town, find a farm that do not use any fertilization (good luck to find one) and try to eat a fresh egg right from a chicken or to drink milk that still warmed by the cow's body. You will have all your questions about "progress" of our food. Why do you think that anything in audio shall be different? The second thing that happened during the last 80 years was Joe Roberts. In past, even in America in 60s companies were run by engineers. If you look for SEO of American corporation in 50-60 then you will see a lot of former engineers who evolved to become strategic management. After 70s the SEO more and more become format marketing people, sale personal the rest of the Joe Roberts waste. It is no surprise that to sell that crap that those companies do we need or unintelligent consumers and a lot of brainwashing or wars. We have both in US and we certainly have the first one on audio.

Stitch wrote:
I was also interested to listen to those electronics, some in Seattle

I did not know that you make this side of pond. If you do Seattle then while do not you change plain in Boston. I will be happy to play for you some ...Germanic music.

Stitch wrote:
Living voice + Kondo from Great Britain I didn't even shoot a pic, so I use one from last year and my "opinion" about the Performance abilities didn't change. For 1 million it should be a bit better than static pling-plong-plang...but there are also Fanboys for it ...

Hm, they are 1 million now? A million does not mean million. They change a lot because the particular model they used is very expensively finished. I think in sensible finish it would be around $200K acoustic system. It would make it still super expensive but If Wilson Alexandria coast today somewhere around 170K then why Living voice Olympian ca not cost $200K. Anyhow, it is good that Kevin is demonstrating...

Stitch wrote:
Magico Horns Well, the Demo man said, we all should thank God (and the Importer) for those here and we should concentrate to the remarkable sound. 6 educated Magico Technicians need one full day to build them up.....Price: when you have to ask, I think minimum 600k, Soundreproduction: Well, hard to say with movie music and music from outer space but I think, they will find their customers...I thought most of the time...WE stuff from 1928...shit...what happened the last 80 years.....?

I did not know that they are demonstrating this model. I did write about it in past: they are faulty designed horns. It might be interesting to hear is juts for sake of ALE drivers however. Looking at the crap they produce and the people behind the company I would not expect anything but music from outer space. Did they supplement the sound with a picture of an Israeli asshole with crying eyes who had with one hands his acoustic balalaika and with his other hands performing a hand job over Bernie Madoff?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-21-2014

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Stitch

Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #:	4
Post ID:	20861
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Further thoughts II

The Rockports have a very light platter and a carbon Arm....the one I listened to was the latest, it had simply no Bass reproduction, nada, nothing and the Arm resonances are also inferior to any energy transfer from any cartridge. The lead wires are wrapped in a rubber hose and that one has an own force against Arm movement. It will damage any cantilever sooner or later. In the same System was a Seiki 8000 (like Romy's) and when we switched to that one it was a dramatic improvement in ALL areas. The Rockport owner had problems to believe what he heard (The Rockport is for some audiophiles the holy grail ...or EMT...or Thorens Reference or ....- mostly based on pics or when they listened to it and think it is good, then they have no idea what a really well done Turntable can do) but track after track he lost interest in his Rockport and he sold it 3 weeks later finally ....

I also agree with Romys explanation about the last 80 years and the vegetables. Was 15 years ago in the eastern Part of Europe and I got vegetables/food in an area which was far away from any "civilization" and the taste was outstanding natural. Never had this again .... you find "old" cartridges or speakers they have magnets from a material which is no longer available today and yes, there are differences to "modern" parts ....

Most audiophiles think, they only need enough cash and then they will be delivered with better parts. Nonsense. You buy brain or you buy no-Brain (mostly you buy no brain), it is replaced with Marketing blubber....Got a nice story from one of my friends, that one knows someone very well who bought a Violon speaker from Acapella. Very expensive. That owner is technically in the car industry and clever. Anyway, 3 weeks ago he opened the Violon to look inside. Based on his contacts he can get any part he needs and to make a long story short...he was totally shocked when he realized that every single part of this Box, be it caps, chassis, wire, resistors are cheap, cheap, cheap. He said, he saw absolutely nothing which was even a little bit above cheap. He replaced the parts with better ones...but that's the truth about that Business....High End? When you want to be High, smoke something or educate yourself. No one will help you. It is frustrating.
1 million Living voice.... I got that from a Great Britain Forum..someone wrote there who seems to know that company that they are 465.000 GBP + Kondo etc.....anyway, it is only a number :-) and a total different group of clients. It is normal that such a manufacturer has some "friends" everywhere for whatever reason and you find all over the world audiophiles who praise something you, me, others have the opposite "opinion" about ... but interestingly, when a System sounds real, right, lifelike, EVERYONE notices it ... but then all start to think what they like or not like, price, color, size, weight, manufacturer .... and this forms their "opinion" about something

Magico started very fast from unknown brand to a very well known brand. They must have investors that they can afford the marketing (I guess). Family business manufacturers can not afford that, no matter how good their products are. No one cares in that business about "good" or better...You can offer the best speaker in the world for 10k and no one wants to have it. The demand starts with positive reviews, positive "private" opinions from "reviewers, Class A listing in Stereophile and so on and on... And of course, when the 10k speaker really is the best on that planet, it will get no reputation. The Designer has to make a new "improved" model for 150.000$. That is serious and then the Fan group will grow ... And every Magico Speaker I listened to gave me the impression that listening to music is pain. But I also know owners who tell me that their Magico speakers are the best development after sliced bred ...

Kind Regards
Stitch

05-21-2014

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guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #:	5
Post ID:	20863
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Light platter?

The Rockport Sirius 3 platter is around 30 Kg which suggests to me that you haven't seen, used or heard one. From your description, whatever it was that you did hear bears no resemblance to how it sounds. I can only assume that whatever it was, it was faulty.
No matter. Believe what you will but do try to get your facts right.

05-22-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	6
Post ID:	20865
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Some Magico history.

Stitch wrote:
Magico started very fast from unknown brand to a very well known brand. They must have investors that they can afford the marketing (I guess). Family business manufacturers can not afford that, no matter how good their products are. No one cares in that business about "good" or better...You can offer the best speaker in the world for 10k and no one wants to have it. The demand starts with positive reviews, positive "private" opinions from "reviewers, Class A listing in Stereophile and so on and on... And of course, when the 10k speaker really is the best on that planet, it will get no reputation. The Designer has to make a new "improved" model for 150.000$. That is serious and then the Fan group will grow ... And every Magico Speaker I listened to gave me the impression that listening to music is pain. But I also know owners who tell me that their Magico speakers are the best development after sliced bred ...

Magico was stated in 2006 by a wealthy Israeli guy, Alon Wolf. I do not remember, somebody told me where he make money: if I am not mistaken it was bridges restoration, or certification, or fixing, anyhow it was some industrial field that has no relation to audio. Back in 2005 he showed up with computer sketches of loudspeakers and made some bold claims. I did speak with him at that time and he sounded like a complete profane. Perhaps in the field where he had some understanding he was more suitable but as soon he opened his mouth about audio he sound like New Rich Russian from 90s. In 2006 he hired Yair Tammam another Israeli guy. Yair is true professional designer, intelligent, capable, in a way brilliant but not so much loaded musically-culturally. Yair was alway in the shadow but he made each and single Magico design and Alon fancied everything and was running from dealer to dealer, from editor to editor, from reviewer to reviewer and was building the friendly environment into wish they would plant new company idea. The moment was very right at that time. The 2002-2006 the US audio morons were saturated with idea Kharmas loudspeaker. It was a typical fake campaign, right people where place in the right location, right peoples were blabbing this mouth and the army of idiots out there were buying Kharma crap like no tomorrow. Usually this typical audiophile tripe stupidity last a few years, so in the end of 2005 the Patricia Barber admirers in their closets begin to feel that they were mislead. So, the very same people who made US audio cretins to subscribe Kharmas messiah were bought to sell Magico messiah. well, the Kharma were instantly demoted new green light was lit for Magico.

I am not a part of those stupid trends and under normal circumstances I care about this bad products not about players behind the products. I hated Kharma but I like and respect the guy who make Kharma . He did nothing wrong: he make the best products he knew off and it is not a big deal that my vision of "better" loudspeaker is different then his. With Magico it is different. The Magico products sound quite badly, I did invest time to listen them when they show up. However, what Magico did was highly unethical and very malignant behavior that very clearly indicate what kind scams they are. Back to 2008 I think they had a model that made a lot of noise and I decided to listen it. I asked a guy I know, a deeply vested audio inquiry player, who had that model in a very good setting to let me to listen it. So I did and concluded that the speakers were a joke. The owner, knowing my reputation asked me do not divulge our relationship and do not let people know that I was hearing that Magico at his place. Anyhow, in a few months at some forum, I do not even remember were it was a fight between, a bunch of idiots, including Jonathan Vallin who were drooling over themselves about that new Magico and me who insisted that they are ignorant and foolish. Suddenly Alon Wolf come to that forum and insisted that I can't not make those comments as he is absolutely convinced that I never heard his loudspeakers. He was well-informed when I heard the speakers, under which condition and the nature of non-disclosure agreement I had with the system owner. Well, I do not know how you but for me this behavior is a testimony that the person is a human waste with all consequence. As far as I concern I would be fine if the douchebag Alon Wolf would tomorrow chock to death on his glorified saliva, the sound of his chocking would be the best description to me of how Magico sound. Being a nice guy I wish the very same to each full who even bought Magico as beside my personal hate of the company's owner I do feel that Magico house sound is a perfect sonic depicture of what is sonically wrong in today audio.
Rgs,
Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-22-2014

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Stitch

Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #:	7
Post ID:	20866
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Money makes the world go round

Well, there are different Models from Rockport out there .... and I also listened to the latest version Sirius III. Based on the technical specs (heavy 30 kg platter, air bearing horizontal, vertical) I thought it must be super sonically. But when I listened to it, it was really average. And the Seiki 8000 was superior in Bass, Soundstage depth, in a real image from the performance between the speakers, much better resolution in all frequencies...simply much more lifelike.
Why? I don't know. The result was disappointing for me and for the owner. I kept my mouth shut, he heard it anyway. He thought he has the arrow tip of sonic reproduction ... anyway, he sold it and for me it is done, too.

Magico
Thanks for your kind of view. Well, you know the normal defense..."So many satisfied customers all over the world and YOU are the ONLY one who does not like it..." The majority of audiophiles I know (and I knew a lot) are not deaf, but they avoid to trust themselves. They ignore themselves and want desperately a well known brand with all kind of positive reviews... Why?Very simple
Reason 1: To show their friends and others in communities that they have the latest, greatest and of course most advanced and of course: "proved"
and
Reason 2 (even more important): When they find a new toy they can sell the unit much better because they have those who can afford it only 2. or 3. hand(the poorer idiots who dreamed years every night to own it, they are all over *sic*)Didn't Wolf tell the World that you hate him personally for whatever reasons...that your "opinion" is based on personal conflicts...you wanted a pair for a better price and he didn't give you....or whatever .... these are the usual stories ...

Kind Regards
Stitch

05-22-2014

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manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #:	8
Post ID:	20867
Reply to:	20865

Such eloquence

Romy, you have a way with words.
I can't remember when I attended the Munich show, I think it was 4 years ago. Interestingly, my thoughts back then pretty much echoed what has been said in this thread - what has happened to high end audio these last few decades?
Slightly off-topic, I'll be taking receipt of the BD-Design Orelo horns in a couple of weeks' time. I'll start a new thread about them once I have something interesting to report.
Mani.

05-22-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	9
Post ID:	20868
Reply to:	20866

I do not think so.

Stitch wrote:
Well, there are different Models from Rockport out there .... and I also listened to the latest version Sirius III. Based on the technical specs (heavy 30 kg platter, air bearing horizontal, vertical) I thought it must be super sonically. But when I listened to it, it was really average. And the Seiki 8000 was superior in Bass, Soundstage depth, in a real image from the performance between the speakers, much better resolution in all frequencies...simply much more lifelike.

I think the difference you heard was due to different of setup, cartridge mount, VTF or literally zillion other reasons why one presentation from a playback might be different from another one or why the different TTs even in the same playback might sound differently. You, and David in his Air Force One posts, attributed to a better TT better presentation and " soundstage depth, in a real image from the performance between the speakers, much better resolution in all frequencies". I do feel that when you look at very good TT and very bad TT than what you say might be accurate. However, what you are talking about two more or less goof TT. at least with TT of the same topology and competitive "size" then you shall not have any soundstage difference or much better resolution in all frequencies of all the rest conditions are equal. In my mind the only different in those TT would be in lower bass, if the playback is able to handle it. It would not be even more or less bass only but the character of lower bass...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-22-2014

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	10
Post ID:	20869
Reply to:	20868

Setting Up and Maintaining Set-up

It seems like most audio "auditioning" is of the hopeful sort, where we can in the best cases "hear something" that attracts us, and we can perhaps use experience to try to "intuit" whether we might be able to "extract" and use the particular component in our own system. If nothing else, the cartridge and arm/cartridge interface make "listening to a turntable" a pretty dicey proposition; not to mention everything else about the system, including LPs and chosen music. One oft-overlooked aspect of TT set up and use is the ease and likelihood of repeating a given performance. IMO, the "best" TTs are easy to use and they are reasonably constant and reliable, in terms of performance. Take a heavy platter on a smooth, quiet bearing and drive it with a reliable, just-adequate motor, from a short, "just-acceptable" belt... what more do you need? Where's the mystery? I happen to use vacuum hold down, which in this case has NEVER failed me or presented ANY problem for me, or I would 86 it. But I would just as soon use a rim weight, come to that. It is amusing to see and hear people going ga-ga over a TT. Perhaps this is because finding AND EXPLOITING a good one is never a gimmie, no matter the price. But we need to keep our collective wits about us here; whatever else a decent TT is or isn't, it ain't rocket science. Maybe for the big spenders it just gets down to the idea of plug-and-play SOTA. But if this is the case, any end user might still be disappointed to learn that no results-driven TT/arm/cartridge/etc. set-up is plug-and-play; they ALL need honing, lapping and "bedding" in a particular system, and they all need periodic adjustments of one sort or another. And it may be that no one else can do this for you, IF you want the full potential of that "SOTA" TT.

Paul S

05-22-2014

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guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #:	11
Post ID:	20871
Reply to:	20866

Granite Sirius 3

Stitch wrote:
Well, there are different Models from Rockport out there .... and I also listened to the latest version Sirius III. Based on the technical specs (heavy 30 kg platter, air bearing horizontal, vertical) I thought it must be super sonically. But when I listened to it, it was really average. And the Seiki 8000 was superior in Bass, Soundstage depth, in a real image from the performance between the speakers, much better resolution in all frequencies...simply much more lifelike.
Why? I don't know. The result was disappointing for me and for the owner. I kept my mouth shut, he heard it anyway. He thought he has the arrow tip of sonic reproduction ... anyway, he sold it and for me it is done, too.

Ah, Mike L's old deck which then went to a guy in Texas. I know the person who eventually bought it & yes there was a lot wrong with it both with the arm, the motor mounting & the power supply. It took quite a lot of work to put it right. I guess that is a problem with these things, they require a certain level of understanding & experience to be used properly & to reach their potential. I suspect that if you were to hear one working properly you might change your opinion.
You might also want to choose a different cartridge Wink

05-23-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	12
Post ID:	20876
Reply to:	20857

I think it deserve sa better illustration.

Stitch wrote:

I came today to an illustration that I feel is kind of relevant in depicture of what I feel about audio people at the shows: the sheep. It looks at the image there is no fence around the sheep but there is one narrow open gate...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-25-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	13
Post ID:	20888
Reply to:	20876

Good luck with that 120 dB!

Two clips from WE room. Interesting that the presentation is in borderline between stupid and fraudulent. I wonder why they do it. Is it ego things or just an attempt to deal with short penis?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCnfSATnJ1U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frcgZAut4hQ

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-25-2014

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	14
Post ID:	20892
Reply to:	20888

Hunh???

Ummm... What are they selling?

Paul S

05-25-2014

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guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #:	15
Post ID:	20894
Reply to:	20892

Selling?

They weren't 'selling' anything. You could ask about the Japanese GIP reproduction drivers or pick up a leaflet but no one actually mentioned them. The owner of Silbatone has another business making & selling cars. I don't think he's under any pressure to sell audio as well.
Incidentally Stitch. I showed your Rockport picture to the eventual buyer of that table. As pictured it would not function properly. The black sleeving visible to the left should be inside the arm tube. The remaining black sleeve to the right is also completely in the wrong position. He could barely believe anyone would have used or listened to it in that condition. Small wonder you were unimpressed.

05-25-2014

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Purite Audio
Posts 20
Joined on 05-07-2012

Post #:	16
Post ID:	20895
Reply to:	20894

4189

Tried two of the 4189 drivers back at Ralph's coupled to a 2001 produced a very pleasant sound, extremely alive.Keith.

05-28-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	17
Post ID:	20905
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...recorded live...

This is phenomenally ugly. To play this crap publicly is a summit of ugly sale kitsch and a culmination of audio stupidity. A audio person would do it once and it permanently disqualifies him/het to be valid for ANY public opinion.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-29-2014

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	18
Post ID:	20906
Reply to:	20905

Who in the audience had heard taiko drums in person??

If the idea was to demonstrate the unbelievable fidelity of these speakers why wouldn't they use an instrument everyone had heard live or barring that bring in a set of taiko drums and let some taiko player have at it? It's hard to tell from an MP3 file exactly what it sounded like in-room but I have heard more realistic sounding drums in lossy files before. But never having heard taiko drums in person maybe that's what they sound like. I mean like a lossy file of someone banging on a countertop. Visually the speakers are quite ugly but no more so than many others. This does support the notion that the high end audio business is in a death spiral however.

As a side note Wiki indicates that Taiko drums aren't even standardized in size and are played with varying technique so we have an even greater muddle than appears on the surface.

Wiki: Taiko are a broad range of Japanese percussion instruments. Within Japan, the term refers to any kind of drum, but outside Japan, the term is often used to refer to any of the various Japanese drums called wadaiko... The process of constructing taiko varies between manufacturers ....Taiko performance consists of many components in technical rhythm, form, stick grip, clothing, and the instrumentation.

05-29-2014

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	19
Post ID:	20907
Reply to:	20906

It isn't about reproduction, it is about bowel movement

I have heard the Taiko drums. They were used instead of church bells in ancient China - that sounds very fitting in this setting. Later they were "exported" to Japan by the Buddhists where they were used by simple fishermen and farmers as an alarm signal when they were attacked - also very fitting here! The Samurais realized the potential of the Taiko and used it to demoralize and wear down the enemy as well as turn their own warriors into bloodthirsty ecstatic monsters - again, perfect in this setting.

I guess if you are a peasant farmer selling to farmers with the goal to demoralize/trash them them before you suck their blood out, you can't do better than this.

It is probably the only way to sell the Magicos.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

05-29-2014

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	20
Post ID:	20908
Reply to:	20907

Need more info

But the prospective Magico owner needs to know whether the Magicos reproduce the real Taiko drum closely enough to scare and demoralize all the JDs in the neighborhood. It's like those recorded barking dogs that homeowners use in place of real dogs or burglar alarm systems. If the recorded dog bark doesn't have enough sonic fidelity to the real dog bark the thief just comes in the door or window and turns it off. But I agree that most audiophiles will probably be impressed simply by the (100 to 1 ?) price differential between actual Taiko drums (throwing in an odd Taiko drummer or two) and the Magico speakers blaring out Taiko drum War songs.

05-29-2014

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	21
Post ID:	20909
Reply to:	20908

The potential Magico owner only need the YouTube video

steverino wrote:
But the prospective Magico owner needs to know whether the Magicos reproduce the real Taiko drum closely enough to scare and demoralize all the JDs in the neighborhood. It's like those recorded barking dogs that homeowners use in place of real dogs or burglar alarm systems. If the recorded dog bark doesn't have enough sonic fidelity to the real dog bark the thief just comes in the door or window and turns it off. But I agree that most audiophiles will probably be impressed simply by the (100 to 1 ?) price differential between actual Taiko drums (throwing in an odd Taiko drummer or two) and the Magico speakers blaring out Taiko drum War songs.

All that they have to do at the show is play the YouTube video through an iPod in a Bose Sound dock for that level of customer and they will be sold! No speaker needs to be hooked up.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

05-29-2014

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guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #:	22
Post ID:	20910
Reply to:	20909

Some kind of reference.

I didn't hear them playing that piece. I wish I had. At least it was a recording of something real. Everything I heard in there was some or other kind of synthesised Sci-Fi crap with no relation to anything that might previously have been encountered and no humanity in evidence.

05-29-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	23
Post ID:	20911
Reply to:	20909

The Adolph’s paintings…

Actually, it is not about the Taiko drums but about a cultural level of idiot who sell Magico, I had no doubts BTW. If I was speaker maker and my dealer play that crap I would certainly fire the fool. No different then this crap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAhaKcnfBig

This reminds me as a few years back I was visiting that idiot Jonathan Wisse from the Mill who fancy himself a big speaker designer. He show to me his installation and as a subject of the big pride he played to me his favorite recording: a person goes across room with metal sculptor and knocking the sculpture with a hammer. I was looking at him I was not understand if he was kidding to play to me that crap. Unfortunately we was dead serious. They, when I was asked him to play my LP with last movement of “Pathétique” he told me that it was nice but “too many violins”. Well, this exactly what happens when we allow human waste to make decisions about machined that shall conduct artistic expressions.
As many people I visit I always let them to play first recording of their choice. It says to me a lot what I hear what they chosen.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-29-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	24
Post ID:	20913
Reply to:	20857

It reportedly there was one more show in there

http://www.avshowrooms.com/HiFi_Deluxe_2014.html

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-29-2014

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	25
Post ID:	20914
Reply to:	20913

No Magico medal?

I didn't see Magico in Breuninger's Winners Circle in the link above. An oversight or an unhealthy bias against Taiko drums??

As for Guy Sergeant's comment about the demo choices, I assume those kind of artificial sounding mixes are done on purpose as are demos with dynamically or frequency limited demo material. My point about the Magico Taiko drums was that they picked the most arcane "realistic' example I'm sure by design so that you couldn't evaluate against a real life model while pretending that they were avoiding artificial mixes. I understand hotel rooms are not great places for sonics but some vendors take more care and get better results than many. Many vendors fear acoustic mix evaluations I'm sure. Or maybe they know that 99% of their customers listen to loud pop/electronica mixes anyway. In which case I'm puzzled why you would need an expensive system.

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