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  »  New  Don't position speakers but create Sound in room...  Listener position...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     1  44966  06-19-2006
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  »  New  Sound from behind a window...  Sound from behind a window....  Playback Listening  Forum     0  15071  04-24-2011
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06-28-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 351
Post ID: 18335
Reply to: 18334
Pianissimo
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have in the past had our old upright grand in the listening room.  Of course it is an active element.  No surprise, it seems to eat some sounds and "augment" others as it plays along with the hi-fi.  For the sake of my hi-fi-spawned music, I prefer the piano elsewhere in the house, well away when possible (as now).

Best regards,
Paul S
06-28-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 352
Post ID: 18336
Reply to: 18334
The plan in blue.
fiogf49gjkf0d
PianoInRomm.JPG


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-28-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Klausner
Posts 5
Joined on 06-23-2012

Post #: 353
Post ID: 18338
Reply to: 18336
Re: A piano in a listening room
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have an upright piano in my listening room, but I haven't seriously investigated its sonic impact, since its also my living room and its sort of always been there and I've never moved it.  I don't know how much it affects the sound resonant-wise verses having a large object in the corner.  Remember, the strings are damped by default and won't vibrate unless the pedal is down.  A grand piano with an exposed soundboard might make a large impact.  If you really want to get crazy, get a harp (I think its highly unlikely that you play).  It's extremely resonant and all the strings vibrate freely.   My girlfriend is a harpist, and there's a concert Lyon & Healy in my bedroom...It might be sort of hilarious to stick it between my speakers.
06-28-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 354
Post ID: 18341
Reply to: 18334
My doubts
fiogf49gjkf0d
I can empathize with your fascination on how a piano might influence the quality of playback in your home.  A grand or large upright like a Steinway K52 has a resonating sound board 6 feet long or more.  A Steinway Model D concert grand sound board is around 9 feet long.  The size and quality of the sound board has a significant influence on the sound that uniquely identifies the instrument (what distinguishes a Steinway from a Chikering from a Bosendorfer from a Kawai).  My second listening room shares space with a large upright piano (6 ft sound board) and large speakers (estimate cabinet volume around 24 cu ft).  I seldom listen to loud music, but when I opened up the volume, the piano clearly resonates with the playback.  It's actually very annoying and distracting.  I partially solved the problem by putting a large piece of thermal insulating foam behind the piano, backed by cardboard, both covering the sound board.  This helped.  The problem was solved when I moved both the piano and the speakers to new locations, reducing the ringing below my hearing threshold.

From a different perspective, a piano in the listening room adds to the aesthetic quality, in my opinion.  A large piano is a wonderful source of music, and seems fitting in a listening room, even if partially detrimental to the audio playback sound quality.
06-29-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 355
Post ID: 18343
Reply to: 18341
It is exactly what I worry.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 skushino wrote:
… when I opened up the volume, the piano clearly resonates with the playback. 
It is exactly what I worry. When I play my Bruckner I use high volume and it pressurizes my room very high. So, I think it might pick some extra harmonics from the air. It might be useful and it might not be, most likely it will not be. So I wonder about making some kind of extra dumper that I might install in the middle of the piano’s sound board while piano is not being played.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-29-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 356
Post ID: 18344
Reply to: 13235
Agile Room Acoustic Treatment?
fiogf49gjkf0d
My girlfriend a viola player and she brought in our listening room her quarter to do some reading. I was very concerns about the acoustic quality of my listening room and I did not design for live music but rather for audio. I feel that musicians will not find my listening room to be too short in reverberation time. It is might be fine for practicing and learning but it might not be too beneficial for performing  when they want to have “grandiose” room response.

The musicians played in my listening room, they did like the acoustics. I need to confess that I removed from the room all room treatment that was not attached to the walls. I personally do not feel that they were too critical as I did feel that the sound was a bit too “high resolution”, at least to my taste. Later on, when we played my audio I felt that I would like to have a bit less “live” room then it was.

All of it brings me to an interesting question: Acoustics for Music vs. Acoustics for Audio  how to combine it. It would be interesting to design some kind of concept that would make room to be adjustable and by literally turn of switch the room moderate the HF reverberation time. I am thinking about it now and I do have some interesting ideas… share yours if you had those objectives and had some success stories. Ten years back there was a lot of buss in my software word about Agile Software Development, so why not to invent a concept of Agile Acoustic Treatment?

Rgs,
Romy The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-29-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 357
Post ID: 18346
Reply to: 18344
Musicians at home
fiogf49gjkf0d
How fortunate to have live music performed in your home.  In the few instances when I had talented pianists (not me) play at my house, all thoughts of playback and acoustics go out the window.  The music by itself makes me forget about all the geeky aspects of our hobby.  I have had the privilege or listening to concert pianists perform in private settings, where I was able to listen while standing next to the concert grand piano.  The power and volume is amazing.  The musical impact is fantastic.  Maybe this is why musicians generally have little interest in doing audio, while people who do audio go to extraordinary lengths to try and recreate this experience at home.
06-30-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 358
Post ID: 18348
Reply to: 18346
Piano Measurements
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have an Upright piano in my listening room, it has been there since day one, so I dont know how different my room would sound wihtout it... Maybe I will haul the piano out one day just to test it:   nah...

A bunch of years back we were testing two amps in a friends system, he has an Upright piano in his listening room as well.  He had a very nice version of the Jadis Defy 7 amp and was testing a Gryhon Antileon amp to see if we would buy it.   We were also playing around with an RTA system and measuring the response of the SS Antileon amp,  very spiky response though flat.  in one of the silences a friend sort of punched the piano keys,  the RTA graphs went all rounded when they had been full of spikes,  we then tested the Tube amp and the graphs were rounded again.  needless to say he didnt buy the SS amp.

Having listened to your system I am very interested in a comparison between live music and something similar (quartet) sounding in your playback, on the same room,  you state that live was "too high resolution" and that for playback you needed a more "dead" room.  Can you give us a more detailed descrption?

A close friend recorded in his room a jazz singer with electric guitar on RTR and then played it back,  there was not a huge difference!  Full horn system did help!

Old WE cinema systems were often used against live orchestras playing in the cinema.... Would have loved to listen to that!
07-05-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 359
Post ID: 18363
Reply to: 18348
It has absolutely nothing to do with proper audio objectives
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Jorge wrote:
Having listened to your system I am very interested in a comparison between live music and something similar (quartet) sounding in your playback, on the same room,  you state that live was "too high resolution" and that for playback you needed a more "dead" room.  Can you give us a more detailed descrption?

A close friend recorded in his room a jazz singer with electric guitar on RTR and then played it back,  there was not a huge difference!  Full horn system did help!

Old WE cinema systems were often used against live orchestras playing in the cinema.... Would have loved to listen to that!

In contrary I very much disagree that playing live music, recording it, playing it back and compare results serve any meaningful purpose. On surface it looks like right thing to do and it is what has been practicing in audio for the last 130 years. But if to gig a bit deeper then comparing live and recorded sound in the same room is the stupidest thing one can imagine in audio and it very much contradict what audio is all about.

I am not surprised however that your friend had such bad result playing back his jazz singer with electric guitar. To make it realistically more or less the same is VERY difficult to do but once again – even if you do it then it still has absolutely nothing to do with proper objectives of audio.

I am not sure what you are asking when you are asking about more detailed description. I think it is very obvious. Live string players would like to play in reverberant space where the sound of the string acoustically amplified and enriched by the reverberation. I do not have a lot of it going in my
listening room…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-19-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 360
Post ID: 18423
Reply to: 13235
The next step.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Ok, it took my listening room 2 years to be fully functioning and I have decided to take it a notch further. Next week I will be breaking one of the wall in my listening room and if the roof will not collapse as the result then I will have beautiful space to host a piano in my listening room.  It will be a large 10 feet bay so it will accommodate even 9 feet grand piano but for now it 5 feet baby grand will go in there. It for sure will have some toll over the acoustic in the room and some of the things will be revised.  The “organ” acoustic treatment over the midbass horns will be most probably partially gone. The wall between the bay with record and bad on the left:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_Images/NewRoom_ASC_1.JPG

 …. will be gone and piano will be injected in there. The record will have a new location and many other changes will be performed. The Macondo, Miq’s the equipment and the room stays.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-20-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 361
Post ID: 18425
Reply to: 18423
Midbass horns missing??
fiogf49gjkf0d
I just noticed the empty space at the location where your midbass horns are/were positioned. Am I blind or are they missing?

Edit: I must be very stupid - the photo is probably taken before they were installed... :-))



"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
07-30-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 362
Post ID: 18465
Reply to: 13235
A new appearance of Macondo?
fiogf49gjkf0d

It is interesting development going on in my listening room. Amy the Kitten is making her hands dirty to convert our man-cave nerdy house into something that we as a family would enjoy. With all horror that this move would inflict in the heart of a heavy-core audio person I have to admit that I do like so far what she is doing. One of the walls in the listening room is broken and her baby grand, her music and her cute viola are placed in the space. It made room even larger than before. I still work on acoustic treatment of the new space and I will post the picture what I feel I am gone.

With time goes by we have a number of other projects how we could modify the appearance of the listening room. It might sound sacrilegious but Amy has beautiful taste and capacity in decoration field, she is sensible and recognizes arguments (it I subdue her unfortunate decoration spontaneousness) and she is respectful in term of reasons – a seldom quality for a woman.

Some far the only change she inflicted to our listening room was creation the space for her musical instruments in the room and change my listening chair to a listening couch.  The last one was not negotiable for her. I enjoy it but when I explain to her about time alignment and necessity to sit in specific manner she disobey and keep posturing herself within the couch like a monkey on a tree. I work on that part of her listening habits, not too successfully so far.

We have a plan to remove wall-to-wall carpet from listening room and to put there parquet with mandatory Oriental rug. I have no problem with it and I even like it but I need to formalize this project in context of the playback to live on hard surface – it will be many changed that I need to force. The most attractive from audio perspective is that I will be able to drive Macondo across the room on some kind of good rolls in my search of DPoLF.

The most interesting change however is not what I said above but what is coming next. Amy has some kind of girlish obsession with plants. She sticks them into all imaginable places and the next target of her attention is Macondo. She asked me if I would like to decorate Macondo with some plants.  With all ridiculousness of this proposal I have to admit that I like the idea a lot.  A few years back I was visiting an installation in Manhattan. The guy was a full Goto setup that was located in the main room but it was very tactfully almost hidden in a “jungle” of very cleverly positioned plans. The speakers and amplifiers were almost invisible and the music was sound like it come from a forest. I am sure that it would not be possible in my situation but I very open to experiment with it and to see where it might go.

Macondo topology implies large space and big horns. I did not see that anyone ever tried to decorate them to make it more WAF-compliant.  I have no issues with Amy regarding Macondo or the whole playback in the room but she did express interest to work with Macondo in order to make it prettier for girlish perception.  I am very welcoming her input and very much look forward to see where it might lead. The subject of the large glass doors behind Macondo never were addressed and it is very possible that plants acoustic randomizing of space behind Macondo would address the “glass problem”. Let see how it goes and if we hit something that I like visibly and sonically then I post the pictures.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-30-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 363
Post ID: 18469
Reply to: 18465
Audio + Plants + WATER!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, plants are nice; but the water plants require is anethema to hi-fi compnents, as I learned the hard way.

Caveat Amor.

Paul S
07-31-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 364
Post ID: 18470
Reply to: 18423
Baby Grand
fiogf49gjkf0d
Which piano make your girlfriend brought?




http://hifiblog.livejournal.com/
07-31-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JJ Triode
Posts 99
Joined on 09-12-2007

Post #: 365
Post ID: 18472
Reply to: 18465
Wood floor
fiogf49gjkf0d
I predict in the long run you will have better Sound with a hardwood floor.  Of course it will require some adjustments but that was my experience when I made this change years ago.  Much easier for cleaning etc. too.   Rather than say any more in detail let's wait to see what you find.

Rgs, JJ
07-31-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 366
Post ID: 18473
Reply to: 18472
Hardwood floors in listening room
fiogf49gjkf0d
 JJ Triode wrote:
I predict in the long run you will have better Sound with a hardwood floor.  Of course it will require some adjustments but that was my experience when I made this change years ago.  Much easier for cleaning etc. too.   Rather than say any more in detail let's wait to see what you find.
I can’t predict what sound will I get with hardwood floors and how it will be different from think wall-to-wall carpet that I have now. Currently I have architect wood joists 30 feet long running at the bottom of the floor. Then I have a sheet of 1.25” plywood board, than 1/4 sheet of foiled plywood, than then 1” plywood. Atop I have carpet with regular pads under it. If I lay the typical contemporary American parquet then it will be stable to the top layer of plywood, not glued as they use to do 30 years back. So, the floor will not be more solid and it is will then very little stronger.  I am sure it will be another layer of rugs atop of parquet and my idea is that with reflection/abortion of the rag I will be able to moderate the “live top” vs. “live bottom” acoustics in the room. As now I can’t do anything at the bottom as it is dead die to the heavy absorption from my wall-to-wall carpet. It migh be interesting to play with “bottom liveliness” if I have a chance….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-31-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 367
Post ID: 18474
Reply to: 18465
My Listening Room: the new Amy’s Corner
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Before

NewRoom_ASC_1.JPG

After

ListeningRoom_NewMusicCorner.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-02-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 368
Post ID: 18478
Reply to: 18474
Amy’s baby.
fiogf49gjkf0d
The baby grand piano that Amy brought with herself in my life is kind of making me want to experiment with it. The piano is from Amy grandmother’s youth and it is probably from 30s. It is not bad piano, I have seen much worse, but it is not Steinway CD piano. We do not have an acute need to change the piano as now and we will see how it will be used.  For a time being I kind of thinking to give to this piano some “extension” by audio methods. The piano we have has no "crash" of a large 9’ grand but I wonder how many pianos are installed in the room with properly made 40Hz horns and complimentary ULF sections? I look forward to reinforce this piano and let LF part of Macondo to play partially with it. I wonder how it might work. Amy sometime does chamber reading sessions with her friends, I wonder we do some quintets with piano and if my helped piano will be able to fool the pianists. An interning project to experiment with and I think I will be able to cook something stimulating.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-02-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 369
Post ID: 18483
Reply to: 18478
Improvement
fiogf49gjkf0d
Bravo, and well done.  Your room has taken a leap forward in aesthetics, losing the geeky bachelor audio lab look, and gaining warmth and social interaction.  I'm envious of your regular access to live chamber music via Amy and her friends.  The resonating piano is a small price to pay for the gains elsewhere.  The new interior design creates an atmosphere for music enjoyment, whether via audio reproduction or live musicians.  I've seen so many pictures of listening rooms that seem as welcoming as a stay in a dungeon - equipment, wires and stuff resulting in clutter.  I don't understand how anyone could enjoy / experience art in those rooms.  Listening environments have a tremendous affect on my ability to experience pleasure during aesthetic pursuits, whether listening to music, viewing art, reading, or socializing with friends.
08-02-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
owl
Posts 2
Joined on 03-27-2005

Post #: 370
Post ID: 18484
Reply to: 18483
Agree with Scott
fiogf49gjkf0d
Looks tremendous, beautiful if not completely symmetrical. Interested to hear your thoughts regarding the change in resonance and the acoustic signature of your new "baby". I would think with the piano closed it would be less of an issue. Perceptually though, having musical instruments resonating in real space is what you would have happening in a concert space.
08-14-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 371
Post ID: 18517
Reply to: 18473
Hardwood floors consequences.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I can’t predict what sound will I get with hardwood floors and how it will be different from think wall-to-wall carpet that I have now. Currently I have architect wood joists 30 feet long running at the bottom of the floor. Then I have a sheet of 1.25” plywood board, than 1/4 sheet of foiled plywood, than then 1” plywood. Atop I have carpet with regular pads under it. If I lay the typical contemporary American parquet then it will be stable to the top layer of plywood, not glued as they use to do 30 years back. So, the floor will not be more solid and it is will then very little stronger.  I am sure it will be another layer of rugs atop of parquet and my idea is that with reflection/abortion of the rag I will be able to moderate the “live top” vs. “live bottom” acoustics in the room. As now I can’t do anything at the bottom as it is dead die to the heavy absorption from my wall-to-wall carpet. It migh be interesting to play with “bottom liveliness” if I have a chance….

Amy is pushing hard for hardwood floor and I think we will go for it. We have started the new project of knocking another wall and made some other change in the room, making it more suitable to be listening/music room. A few dilemmas derive from hardwood direction however. I do not even mention that I need to disassemble everything(!!!) and take out of the room.

The problem is that I am not sure what I need to you under the bottom of my equipment.  I would like it to be slide-able but the regular felt pads (as used on furniture) would not work as I have no wide surface to mound them under the bottom. It will be 2 large equipment stands, one of them over 2.5K pounds, Macondo and pair of Melquiades. It would be very nice to have Macondo on some kind of miniature wheels but I double that I will find them. The best would be to have some kind retractable wheels, when I could push a layer, extend the wheels, slide the Macondo (still have a wet dream about finding my DPoLS) and then retract the wheels. Alternatevlsy if I have some kind of very high-end pads under Macondo that would slide nicely over 3 layers of polyurethane then I could do away with it. Does anybody know of any large side and very rigid under furniture type pads that would be more slippery then regular home depot pads?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-14-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 372
Post ID: 18518
Reply to: 18517
Integrated casters
fiogf49gjkf0d
Sugatsune make these integrated devices that could work well: I have used their kit before.
http://www.sugatsune.com/products/ProductDetails.cfm?CATID=12&SUBCATID=2&PRODUCTID=AF-50%2F65 
But unless the contact points are very broad you will have issues with marking the floor, except if you make it out of brown ebony or something comparably hard. 


08-14-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 373
Post ID: 18519
Reply to: 18518
Very nice, thanks.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 decoud wrote:
Sugatsune make these integrated devices that could work well: I have used their kit before.
http://www.sugatsune.com/products/ProductDetails.cfm?CATID=12&SUBCATID=2&PRODUCTID=AF-50%2F65 
But unless the contact points are very broad you will have issues with marking the floor, except if you make it out of brown ebony or something comparably hard. 
Wonderful, decoud, this was exactly what I was looking. I think the hill of the bold could have slightly larger surface but I think it could be welded on. The floor will be made most likely from oak, which has mid hardness. I think it I use 6-8 casters like this I will be able to unload the mass to multiple wheels. The only problem that I invasion is that they kind of ugly. It would be nice if the wheels in none-operational state would flip horizontally and be less visible. If I use them as is, then it would probably make me to make a skirt at the bottom of Macondo to hide the casters. Not prohibited solution but it will raise the entire Macondo for at least 7.5 centimeter…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-14-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 374
Post ID: 18520
Reply to: 18519
Customization
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, the leveller component is just an M16 bolt, so you can remove it and screw whatever you want in its place. The width of the floorplate, however, is limited by the proximity of the wheel, and you may not be able to have it much wider than this. The chromed steel is not attractive, it is true, but they might be able to do other finishes for you: I know at least their UK branch is flexible and engaged when I have worked with them. 

08-14-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JJ Triode
Posts 99
Joined on 09-12-2007

Post #: 375
Post ID: 18523
Reply to: 18519
Sliders
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, you might be able to support some part of your installation on these:

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm#bfglider

They DO affect sound but in my experience, in positive ways.  I recall you got no benefit from this company's tube dampers or from talking to the owner, but these footers might prove useful.  They do slide well on finished wood surfaces.

Rgs,
JJ
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