ArmAlex wrote:

Stitch wrote:Or let's go to the real world, there are endless high powered cars outside. 99,5% of their owners aren't able to handle them.Yes you are right, the problem is almost nowhere has been left to use a performance car even if you have the ability, 99.95% of the road are restricted. But in audio you can squeeze every drop of equipment's ability.Best regardsArmen

Stitch wrote:

1. No real world sorrows 2. Next toy from the Adult Toy Store 3. Satisfaction for the Ego for whatever reasons In a way you find all answers in your Article of "Foolishness of analog People" .... The big Seikis were never common in USA, you and a few others know the old ones and what they can do. The AFO is such a unit made in 2012.In a way it is the first real serious Design Solution I saw in the last 10 years. When someone sees it now the first time and he is not stupid, he will detect sooner or later, that there is something serious done. I can't say how good it performs in reality, because the old 8000II with the Vacuum is inferior to a - additional - dampened Platter 8000. But I can imagine they solved it with a new dampened Platter. Would be logical, that was the only weak point of the 8000II. I listened multiple times to Continuum Player and imo, there is a lot of brain inside. Unfortunately it is like a race car which needs care and service. I had a few Situations when the Continuum got defect. They need replacement parts what someone in Australia told me. Anyway, they sold more units than I thought. There is a market for expensive Turntables. When they are good sounding AND reliable, well ... Or let's go to the real world, there are endless high powered cars outside. 99,5% of their owners aren't able to handle them. Even in Germany the majority pushes the pedal only a few times when the highway is empty and straight on. And no one cares, some book driving lessons, but the majority enjoys the simple ownership. That's the way it is ...

I did not know that Continuum might got broken. The notion that 100K TT might be broken is ridicules is me.  There is absolutely nothing that TT does that shall send it out of service and if anything does get broken itself then it is solely the design flow. BTW, the very first private demo with Continuum that I attended the TT was not able to martin speed. The Continuum people did not actual hears it and it was VERY laughable. Thos people know or care about music as much as I know about subatomic physics…

The story that is unfolding with post-Seikis in USA is kind of ugly. The Continuum sold more units than you thought because the idiot Framer blew the Continuum horn. Well, ne is not necessary an idiot – his job title to be idiot but the army of brainless audio cretins will blindly follow whatever bone he throw to them and say “fetch”. BTW, the very same story is unfolding now with Air Force One and used to unfold with Micro Seiki.

In begin of 90s I believe someone publish something about Micro Seiki 1500FVG. It was a very good TT and it was hands and shoulders above whatever crap was sold in US in that time. The review neutral but as I was told it was made a deliberate decision to not let heavy Japanese TT to enter the US market. So, the US duckling did not see any large Micros and the ground was set to let light plastic German TT to dominate US marketing.

It look like now the new US distributor run his new TT across the all casual suspects of the US marketing food chain. He stuffs the TT across 3-4 “big names”, trying to solicit them to get aboard. As they do suspect the price go up as those asshole pay shit and somebody need to endure the cost and the destitution/dealer appetite. The result will be as usually is not an objective evaluation of TT but embracing a new spin campaign of the products. For the next 3-5 years the US rep will make good money, buy a boat and in a few years the Air Force One will be demoted if they do not do more “white trash” targeted models. This is not about TT but about the primitive food chain in audio industry. I will not be surprised if even in years it will not be know (publicly) if Air Force One has any sonic advantages or disadvantages over another best TT of the past and none of them were used by the audio pimps.

It was reported to me privately that the Air Force One did fine at CES 2013 but as uselessly it was just a play of a TT and absolutely no one would know how much in that sound was TT vs. anything else. Also, Wilson is not the acoustic system within the context of which one might look at the performance of TT.  BUT once again, the show condition is not the place to find sound but an opportunity for manufacturers to suck industry dicks. The case to point:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/64/640297.html

It is good that the Japanese guy who does Air Force One is not plugged into our “American swallowing” and he might maintain some independence and integrity.

Stitch wrote:

and I asked the shop owner:Who buys that (I didn't ask for sound quality) and his answer was fast and honest: Those who buy that instead of the third car or another sailing boat. I think, nothing changed.

dkarmeli wrote:

is that the operating word is "Turntable Collection". The Air Force One (hate the name!) is the culmination of the great Micro Seiki's coming full circle and once again starting a new chapter in high end analog reproduction, this completes my MS COLLECTION.

Paul S wrote:

This actually LOOKS like a well-thought-out TT. Too bad the "review" is so over-awed/fawning. I can hardly read it. My suspicions rise uncontrollably and cloud my thinking as the cost-is-no-consideration "solutions" are meticulously unloaded onto the pages. Still, when I filter through the drivel, it appears that this may be a rare case where overbuilding, in and of itself, does not spoil performance. Looking at past "state-of-the-art" TTs, I think there are better materials for platters than steel (eg, lead, graphite, etc.), but I did not gather the full range of options for this TT. Also, while my own TT effortlessly employs a small air pump (for vacuum hold down), I am always wary of the complexity, expense, and potential problems with compressed air systems for TTs, elaborate or otherwise, and I can't help but wonder if it would ultimately cost less and be easier to use if they simply made/used a suitable conventional bearing. Lastly (for now), I am stuck on the idea that the drive belt should be the "minimum" that will suffice to drive the platter, in terms of length, width, thickness and grab. Hard to tell by just looking how this belt behaves; just saying... Paul S

Paul S wrote:

David, of course the item under discussion would not exist at all unless someone "saw" it before he or she built it... Setting that aside for now, Lord knows I try to Keep It Real when sharing thoughts about hi-fi. With this goal in mind, will you please list the "many wrong assumptions" I've committed to in my previous post? Best regards, Paul S

Paul S wrote:

David, it looks like your "many" has dwindled to 2 citations, namely "overbuilt" standing alone, and "SOTA tables were all made from other materials". IMO, the table under discussion has been, if nothing else, taken way past the point(s) of function and well into the realm of purely aesthetic considerations (and we all know why). In any case, your idea that it is not "overbuilt" is no less a simple statement of "opinion" and or (pace) "assumption".

Paul S wrote:

As for my remarks on the choice of platter materials, it appears that you've not only paraphrased (rather than quoted) but also missed the point that I am speculating, based on what I have heard. Also, please note that I put the term "state of the art" in quotes. In case this puzzles, I meant thereby to isolate the term and leave it twisting in the swirling winds of opinion, where it belongs. I hope this brings that (actual) remark into better focus.

Paul S wrote:

You may already know that every once in a while, someone pops up here to "defend" a beloved marque or some component or idea that the defender has a personal interest/investment in. I can tell you that I have no significant personal interest in any TT or TT company at all, so any speculation on my part is just that, and nothing more. Meanwhile, don't forget that the Theory of Special Relativity was pretty much pure speculation when it was first published. Of course, this is not an attempt to put my remarks on par with that document, only to mention that speculation has an established, historical place in the advancement of knowledge.

Paul S wrote:

No "cost assumption" was made or posited about bearings, rather the remark was framed as a question, just wondering, likewise the very general remarks about belts (along with the closing disclaimer). If the air system is cheap, effective and reliable, you can't beat that, IMO, but look no further than, say, Walker for alternate takes. However, I did /do admit that I am generally suspicious of gigantic, complicated, super-expensive hi-fi gear in general, on the face of it, notwithstanding that this one appears to address the salient "issues" pretty squarely (for a change...), and I admit that I start out with this bias. To me, "built right" might mean it gets the job done, or it might simply mean "well put together". Where one stops on either count would tell a lot. I tend to favor a least approach, whatever that means, at least in theory, but if more isn't too much, it might still be enough. My platter tests over the years consisted of listening with stethoscopes and using various "tools" to incite noise with a cartridge in play. Likely, more is more in the case of steel platters; many ring like bells; the same with aluminum. Anyway, you actually did quote me this time, vs "...your assumption that SOTA tables were all made from other materials..." before. Point well taken about aesthetics in general, although I remain unsure whether this represents a least approach, ala Ockham's Razor. In other words, it isn't just a matter of "like" or "don't like" with respect to the aesthetics in my case but an open consideration, form vs. function vs cost vs price. Best regards, Paul S

Paul S wrote:

Of course the idea of "minimal" needs context and a priori determinants, like any idea at all, and I don't see that the Regas belong in this particular discussion, at least at this particular point. OTOH, the Continuum is another good illustration of a techno tail wagging a functional dog, which , IMO, is the first thing one ought to wonder about when presented with something like the AF1. You say the AF1 deserves all the praise, and it's a good value in Yen, so I ass-u-me you've heard it several times, in several systems, and under a range of conditions, in order to isolate its characteristics, including tests on the platter, which you've called "inert". But another aspect of my post was triggered by the "review" itself, which I found to reflect an overawed ingenuousness that goes beyond awarding merit and smacks of the unctuous fawning that plagues the genre, regardless of actual merit in terms of application. I realize that this type of "review" typically has the opposite of the intended effect on me, mea culpa, so please pardon my barely restrained sarcasm on this score, and sorry it stains my perception of the product, despite I know better than to be influenced like this, one way or the other. Not to throw a wrench or spill oil on the causeway, but another (typical) big issue with the giant, complex gear is that one seldom gets a chance to hear it at its best, whatever that may be, for so many reasons that their consideration would spawn several sub-threads were we to get into it [yet again]. Actually, we have already widely discussed these issues at GSC, and the threads are cataloged here, if you care to look. Best regards, Paul S

dkarmeli wrote:

I have an AF1. I understand your justified bias regarding reviews, but this is one of those rare cases where the reviewer does know what he's talking about.

drdna wrote:

dkarmeli wrote: I have an AF1. I understand your justified bias regarding reviews, but this is one of those rare cases where the reviewer does know what he's talking about. David, I hope you understand Paul's recalcitrance. We've all been around the block more than a few times. When a dealer such as yourself comes on an audio site and promotes a product he sells, you tend to take that with a grain of salt... Adrian

Paul S wrote:

David, I did take your initial post in this thread as an "owner post". Like I said, (and I hope I can leave it at that), it "LOOKS" like a nice TT, all right; but there are also the usual reasons to wonder if it might be a well-packaged Robb Report thing. I'm sure you understand without my listing the indicators. Best regards, Paul S