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  »  New  5-ways from Speedysteve7..  Hehe - no invite for you...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  121770  05-20-2011
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  »  New  Designing and building a 5 channel horn loaded (looking..  Distance to front wall...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     68  127567  06-20-2015
  »  New  Eventually - a reasonable midbass horn from GOTO..  Clever DIY going on where?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     97  854420  11-19-2007
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10-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 126
Post ID: 22128
Reply to: 22125
GOTO for upper bass ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Oh, God, what the measurement microphone does at the mouth of the horn? Is it where you measure your responses?  I hope not. Also, even over the bad sound of YouTube video it is very clear at the example you provided us that there is very shallow upper bass in that sound. 

I agree about upper bass.
Do you think that GOTO 146 is not capable to produce right upper bass in say 110-160Hz Tractrix ?
I know that you don't like WE555 with 1" throat, but what about 4" throat like you have ?
Why low resonance of GOTO is a problem ?
Sorry for too much questions Smile
10-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 127
Post ID: 22129
Reply to: 22124
This is not a bug!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

OI would not worry about the drop at drop at 200Hz. I am pretty sure that you have some problem with exit of driver and horn throat integration. Anyhow, it is just a bug somewhere, you will find and fix it. 
 
I've just realised, that this is not a bug!
Looks like this horn doesn't work after 200Hz, so it is drivers own SPL rising higher than horns equalizatoin.
So, this sound after 200Hz must be removed by crossover or as I understand, making horn longer will increase the bandwidth of equalization and this drop can be removed. But the question is - do I need it ? May be crossovering is right way.Any opinions on this ?
10-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 128
Post ID: 22130
Reply to: 22126
Hm.... OK....
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Murataltuev wrote:

What will be your suggestion for upper bass channel using compression driver ?

I do not use compression driver for bass channel. I would like to have my system esthetically balanced, to get let say 120Hz from a compression driver would take too long horn and it would be no way time-aligned it. So, I use "proper" regular drivers but mount then as compression.  That what I would recommend. What I do is not an accident but outcome of many experiment and thinking. For sure the conclusions serve my priorities, your priorities might be different.  Still I did not see any sensible solutions for upperbass with a compression driver that allow a proper implementation user the umbrella of Macondo axioms.

 Murataltuev wrote:
I have no simple way to time-align with mid-bass horn...

That is why most of the people do not do mid-bass horn with compression drivers. People go for mid-bass horn not because they bought drivers but because they find a way to alight and integrate the monster horns in their listening space.
 
 Murataltuev wrote:

Do you think that GOTO 146 is not capable to produce right upper bass in say 110-160Hz Tractrix ?

You are confused. A driver is very irrelevant thing in this subject. 110Hz in Tractrix is around 48" mouth. Can you accommodate it in context of your horns stuck? I do not know what the exit of your GOTO 146 but if it is 4" then be prepare to align 4" of horn length. I know the Goto users and makers do not believe in time alignment but that is why do not take them seriously.
 
 Murataltuev wrote:
I've just realised, that this is not a bug!
Looks like this horn doesn't work after 200Hz, so it is drivers own SPL rising higher than horns equalizatoin.
So, this sound after 200Hz must be removed by crossover or as I understand, making horn longer will increase the bandwidth of equalization and this drop can be removed. But the question is - do I need it ? May be crossovering is right way.Any opinions on this ?

That is exactly the definition of bug. Anyhow, if you are right then it look like your Goto driver has too soft suspension for 40Hz and you would need to tighten the back chamber  and to drive the resonance frequency all the way up.
 
 Murataltuev wrote:

Thank you for the link!I'm completely with this statement:
"...SG146LD is the only compression bass driver which does not produce boom-boom if fed right. The SG146LD contrarily is on first impression not to be heard as bass, first you think, hey it is wrong, it is not connected, but then you realize, what they are doing, they integrate completely homogeneously into the sound, totally natural, like a royal soufflé, no more "cuts" between bass and mid-range (especially in the voices), just "one" sound. Marvellous. Really marvelous..."
I said exactly this words after first impression: no bass, just right tone of lower octaves!
This is really amazing!

 
Well, I would leave the Reinhard and Kaluss alone. But what I do assure you with very high confidence that from what you described and how you use your horn with GOTO I conclude that your Goto channel not even remotely close to be used properly. The fact that you so excited with very much accidental use of a compression driver and a random horn is a bit alarming to me. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-20-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 129
Post ID: 22131
Reply to: 22130
Any interest to help ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 
I do not use compression driver for bass channel. I would like to have my system esthetically balanced, to get let say 120Hz from a compression driver would take too long horn and it would be no way time-aligned it. So, I use "proper" regular drivers but mount then as compression.  That what I would recommend. What I do is not an accident but outcome of many experiment and thinking. For sure the conclusions serve my priorities, your priorities might be different.  Still I did not see any sensible solutions for upperbass with a compression driver that allow a proper implementation user the umbrella of Macondo axioms. 
What Macondo axioms are breaking with using GOTO 146 with 4" exit in say 150Hz Tractix ?Why you don't recomment to do it ?

That is why most of the people do not do mid-bass horn with compression drivers. People go for mid-bass horn not because they bought drivers but because they find a way to alight and integrate the monster horns in their listening space. 
Any system is a set of compromises. The one thing where I don't want compromise is drivers tone! I've found driver with the right tone.I'm not on yout side blaming GOTO users who doesn't care much about time alignment. They have another priorities. But, of course, will be great to time-align if possible. But skipping such an incredibly great driver, because of the alignment problems is definately not my way.Romy, may be I'm wrong to expect some help from you. I read here in some thread you told that will be happy to help to someone with this GOTO 146. May you had interest at that time and don't have it now. Don't you have any interest to help me to proper implement system with this driver ?
You are confused. A driver is very irrelevant thing in this subject. 110Hz in Tractrix is around 48" mouth. Can you accommodate it in context of your horns stuck? I do not know what the exit of your GOTO 146 but if it is 4" then be prepare to align 4" of horn length. I know the Goto users and makers do not believe in time alignment but that is why do not take them seriously. 
160Hz is just 60x60sm and 0.5m long. For sure I'll find some way to time-align. May be I'll skip fundamental channel and my upperbass will go till 1000Hz.In this case configuraion will be as follows:1. RAAL 14k+2. JBL 245X 1200-14k3. GOTO 146 300-12004. GOTO 146 50-300
What is wrong with this configuration ?
That is exactly the definition of bug. Anyhow, if you are right then it look like your Goto driver has too soft suspension for 40Hz and you would need to tighten the back chamber  and to drive the resonance frequency all the way up. 
I've just realised why I have full orchesta in my room! GOTO has a hole in the back chamber. May be it works like port ? I'll measure SPL of this port today.And see what happens when I close it.
Well, I would leave the Reinhard and Kaluss alone. But what I do assure you with very high confidence that from what you described and how you use your horn with GOTO I conclude that your Goto channel not even remotely close to be used properly. The fact that you so excited with very much accidental use of a compression driver and a random horn is a bit alarming to me. 
Romy, believe me, I have very good ears. I don't need measurements to say what is wrong with SPL. I immidiately recognize if anything wrong with timbre. And I have very exact knowledge what is good tone.But my expirience in listening horns is very limited. And this expirience is very important, of course. Hope to listen more systems around the world to understand where am I with my system.
10-20-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 130
Post ID: 22132
Reply to: 22131
Ok, get serious.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
What Macondo axioms are breaking with using GOTO 146 with 4" exit in say 150Hz Tractix ?Why you don't recomment to do it ?

Of cause not but did you read and understand the Macondo Axioms? The Macondo Axioms proclaims that an individual driver and individual channel have to be set in maximum suitable for own topology operation. According to Goto the 146 driver has high 20Hz resonance frequency. How will you be able to use it with 150Hz horn? Of cause you will be able to use it and of cause you will have an opportunity to cry that it was a “great tone” but in reality it would not be the optimum setting for this driver.
 Murataltuev wrote:
Any system is a set of compromises. The one thing where I don't want compromise is drivers tone! I've found driver with the right tone.

Murat, I juts would like to advise you to hold your enthusiasm for Soundex-type of community. Any quality does not come from component but from effort to make the components to function properly. You just discovered Gotos, dumped them in a random seating and cry about tone, while Goto never were especially great tonal drivers.
 Murataltuev wrote:
I'm not on yout side blaming GOTO users who doesn't care much about time alignment. They have another priorities.

I am OK that you are not my side. The Goto community is a special breed of people, like iPhone users – it is religion that in many instances based upon amateur expectation.
 Murataltuev wrote:
But skipping such an incredibly great driver, because of the alignment problems is definately not my way. Romy, may be I'm wrong to expect some help from you. I read here in some thread you told that will be happy to help to someone with this GOTO 146. May you had interest at that time and don't have it now. Don't you have any interest to help me to proper implement system with this driver ?

I do not think that anybody advise you to “skipping such an incredibly great driver”. You can use anything you want but whatever you chose make a common usable sense of it. What kind help do you expect? So far you did not ask a single sensible question that would indicate to me that you are trying to do anything interesting. Get serious with what you do and do not spill to this site the infamous Soundex’s empty enthusiasm.
 Murataltuev wrote:
160Hz is just 60x60sm and 0.5m long. For sure I'll find some way to time-align. May be I'll skip fundamental channel and my upperbass will go till 1000Hz.In this case configuraion will be as follows:1. RAAL 14k+2. JBL 245X 1200-14k3. GOTO 146 300-12004. GOTO 146 50-300What is wrong with this configuration ?

If you willing to dedicate one Goto 146 for upper bass and one for midbass then it sound like a good idea. Let presume that you have 400Hz-600Hz MF driver as your base and the rest consecutive channels above. I am sure that you will eventually get rid of your JBL MF and go for a vintage solution but it will be later and to give 400Hz-600Hz as the bottom knee for your prospective MF sound like a reasonable idea. Now, calculate the space you would like to have for your upper bass driver. You need to know juts 2 parameters: exit of your upper bass driver and desirable sixe of mouth. Let juts for a sake of illustration you figure out that you can put 1x1M horn. That would allow you the MF to be at more or less reasonable elevation. The mouth would make let say 100Hz horn rate and if you go with fast opening profile then it will be 1.2M long. This will be time-alignable combination. Also, if you won’t be able to rife the Goto146’s Fs all the way up then you end up with 4” entrance horn and there are plenty of other drivers that you will be able to use. Now it is the time to model how you implement the upper bass horn. Be advised that if you go for 40H then you do not want this horn to shoot toward to you. Most likely it would be curved horn, so use your imagination how to incorporate it in your room. No one could do it buy you. If it as up to me then I would start from Upperbass horn and MF, then after I make the Upperbass and FM tandem to work properly in my room I would supplement it with a direct radiator bass channel and work on perfection of the upper horns. In my mind, looking at the questions you ask you are not ready to undertake the midbass project. You might return to it in a few month after you get a success with your upperbass horn.
 Murataltuev wrote:
I've just realised why I have full orchesta in my room!

Oh, God! Are you on drugs?    
 Murataltuev wrote:
GOTO has a hole in the back chamber. May be it works like port ? I'll measure SPL of this port today.And see what happens when I close it.

You serious, this is the question you ask? Murat, spend some time reading this site. You will save a lot of time and effort to yourself.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-20-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 131
Post ID: 22133
Reply to: 22132
Bass compression driver is all I need
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Of cause not but did you read and understand the Macondo Axioms? The Macondo Axioms proclaims that an individual driver and individual channel have to be set in maximum suitable for own topology operation. According to Goto the 146 driver has high 20Hz resonance frequency. How will you be able to use it with 150Hz horn? Of cause you will be able to use it and of cause you will have an opportunity to cry that it was a “great tone” but in reality it would not be the optimum setting for this driver.
Is any technical background behind the statement that 4" driver can't operate in 300-1000Hz because resonance is too low ?

Murat, I juts would like to advise you to hold your enthusiasm for Soundex-type of community. Any quality does not come from component but from effort to make the components to function properly. You just discovered Gotos, dumped them in a random seating and cry about tone, while Goto never were especially great tonal drivers. 
I don't know about other GOTO drivers, but I know about GOTO 146 in 50-200Hz range. It is awesome for me. I predict that may be it is better then any direct radiating paper cone driver in sealed enclosure aka compression driver. This is my truth for now, so I'm gonna build system with compression drivers only...from top to bottom.
I am OK that you are not my side. The Goto community is a special breed of people, like iPhone users – it is religion that in many instances based upon amateur expectation.
iPhone users have their own simple reason - iPhone is the best phone. May be GOTO users have the same feeling Smile
But I'm not on GOTO or any other brand side. I'm not looking for other GOTO drivers, because this ones are good.
I'm now on side of compression drivers for the bass region. If any other bass driver (not GOTO) exist, I'll be happy to get and evaluate.
My personal feeling about Sound is that lower we go - more we need compression driver with horns. I can hear very good highs from many good tweeters around and for extream high frequencies horns are sound even worse. That is why I'm using RAAL like you. For mid range is more difficult to find good direct radiating driver, so horns with compression drivers are welcomed in this range. And the lower we go - the picture is worse. Direct radiating is just terrible sound, but compression drivers do not exist! Except one driver which I proudly have and promoting the idea of using compression driver for LF.I can imagine that you got some good result with 8" Fane and 15" Vitavox, but hardly believe that it is something close to what compression driver can do.Integration is important, but not as much as sound of exact driver. This is what I've experienced.
Don't you hear in your system the difference in tone clearness when going lower ? Right hand sounds always brighter that left hand. And it is easy to explain technically. Why not to try make it better by using compression driver on LF ? Ok, Romy, you are not ready now, but later you'll come to this. I'm sure!In some thread you told that it will be interesting for you to talk about sound of your system with GOTO user. I'll be happy to visit you if you invite me one day. May be I'm wrong, thinking that 8" Fane and 15" Vitavox can't do anything close to what GOTO 146 is doing.

I do not think that anybody advise you to “skipping such an incredibly great driver”. You can use anything you want but whatever you chose make a common usable sense of it. What kind help do you expect? So far you did not ask a single sensible question that would indicate to me that you are trying to do anything interesting. Get serious with what you do and do not spill to this site the infamous Soundex’s empty enthusiasm.
Ok, Romy...I'm trying to be very polite and respectfull to break through your arrogance, but I give up Smile I'll not spill infamous Soundex’s empty enthusiasm to your site Smile
If you willing to dedicate one Goto 146 for upper bass and one for midbass then it sound like a good idea. Let presume that you have 400Hz-600Hz MF driver as your base and the rest consecutive channels above. I am sure that you will eventually get rid of your JBL MF and go for a vintage solution but it will be later and to give 400Hz-600Hz as the bottom knee for your prospective MF sound like a reasonable idea. Now, calculate the space you would like to have for your upper bass driver. You need to know juts 2 parameters: exit of your upper bass driver and desirable sixe of mouth. Let juts for a sake of illustration you figure out that you can put 1x1M horn. That would allow you the MF to be at more or less reasonable elevation. The mouth would make let say 100Hz horn rate and if you go with fast opening profile then it will be 1.2M long. This will be time-alignable combination. Also, if you won’t be able to rife the Goto146’s Fs all the way up then you end up with 4” entrance horn and there are plenty of other drivers that you will be able to use. Now it is the time to model how you implement the upper bass horn. Be advised that if you go for 40H then you do not want this horn to shoot toward to you. Most likely it would be curved horn, so use your imagination how to incorporate it in your room. No one could do it buy you. If it as up to me then I would start from Upperbass horn and MF, then after I make the Upperbass and FM tandem to work properly in my room I would supplement it with a direct radiator bass channel and work on perfection of the upper horns. In my mind, looking at the questions you ask you are not ready to undertake the midbass project. You might return to it in a few month after you get a success with your upperbass horn.
Thank you, Romy. This kind of suggestions I highly appreciate and expect from you, frankly speaking. I'll think about upper bass horn and how to integrate mid-bass horn around my chair and keep it time-aligned.But I'll not go for direct radiating bass channel. This is in the past forever!I better stay without bass.
You serious, this is the question you ask? Murat, spend some time reading this site. You will save a lot of time and effort to yourself.
 
I'm doing it every evening SmileOf course, need to learn a lot...I'm just couple of months in good sound horn club Smile
10-20-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 161
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 132
Post ID: 22134
Reply to: 22133
ALE 126
fiogf49gjkf0d
If any other bass driver (not GOTO) exist, I'll be happy to get and evaluate.


Just to notice, there are ALE 126 (aka P1260) and 160 (aka P160) too. Big Smile



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
10-20-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 133
Post ID: 22135
Reply to: 22133
To break through my arrogance
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
Is any technical background behind the statement that 4" driver can't operate in 300-1000Hz because resonance is too low ?
Well, you need to define what does it mean “can't operate”? Anything can operate anywhere and everything will produce some kind of sound. The point is that you would like a horn operate it is max capacity and a driver to be properly loaded. Only in that condition a driver and horn do not operate faulty (like most of the horns out there do). In case you have a relatively low rate horn you want a horn resonance to be loaded by the mass of air in the horn, or to be “close” to what they call throat reactance. “Close” is a very loaded statement. To have it within a fraction or DB or within a whole DB very much impact sound but in your case you will have an octave or more away. So, can let say 30Hz driver to operate in 300Hz horn? Yes it can but there you need to play only corny piano concertos on YouTube and it will produce questionable sound. Again, there is tone of information at this site regarding the subject.
 Murataltuev wrote:
I don't know about other GOTO drivers, but I know about GOTO 146 in 50-200Hz range. It is awesome for me. I predict that may be it is better then any direct radiating paper cone driver in sealed enclosure aka compression driver. This is my truth for now, so I'm gonna build system with compression drivers only...from top to bottom.

Ok, there is nothing wrong with that.  A 4” of driver exit into 50hz… hm… It will be good 10-12 feet horn. If your room and your integration methods could accommodate it them good for you. Again, I do suggest you forget for now about your midbass horn and built a normal horn tower with upper bass horn. You will learn about proper integration techniques and THEN will be able to understand a lot about the midbass horns complexity. At this point you do not know what you are asking and in my estimate to go after 40Hz integrated horn would be bit difficult for you and you do not exactly know what you do and what you hear.
 Murataltuev wrote:
iPhone users have their own simple reason - iPhone is the best phone. May be GOTO users have the same feeling 

That is only proves my point. You do not need to talk with me about it but rather with a psychiatr.
 Murataltuev wrote:
I'm now on side of compression drivers for the bass region. If any other bass driver (not GOTO) exist, I'll be happy to get and evaluate.

It is for sure good to have off the shelf compression drives for bass region but unfortunately the implementation is the bitch. A lot of people do not go there becomes they understand the prospective aggravations and consequences. Many people among those who do it do it ignorantly and for wrong reasons - the posting of glossy images of large horn impress only the boys internet yahoos. Go and to listen this installations and if you know what to listen then you will have your expectations cleared. BTW, the best midbass from playback in my life I heard not from compression driver but from other topology.
 Murataltuev wrote:
My personal feeling about Sound is that lower we go - more we need compression driver with horns. I can hear very good highs from many good tweeters around and for extream high frequencies horns are sound even worse. That is why I'm using RAAL like you. For mid range is more difficult to find good direct radiating driver, so horns with compression drivers are welcomed in this range. And the lower we go - the picture is worse. Direct radiating is just terrible sound, but compression drivers do not exist!
I very much disagree with it. Generally a lack of experience prone to crate maximalist and absolute statements. Again there is nothing is wrong with compression drivers for bass. I however feel that the person can make generalization if she at least implement a given topology properly at least once. To hear a sweeping statements form a person who just collect requirement is a bit funny. I hope you understand that the implementation that you depicted at the picture about could not be taken seriously?
 Murataltuev wrote:
I can imagine that you got some good result with 8" Fane and 15" Vitavox, but hardly believe that it is something close to what compression driver can do.

Possibly. Might I ask you what does it mean a compression driver. I think you are not qute understand the vocabulary you use.
 Murataltuev wrote:
Integration is important, but not as much as sound of exact driver. This is what I've experienced.

Well, Murat you read me like I am your next audio review. I am not and my writing requires actually a cognitive interaction with what I say. I said: take time and spend some time of listening and THINKING of what you heard. So, far you experienced very little. You got your first midbass horn where the horn rate canceled out all lower octave and apparently for a first time you heard a playback not overwhelmed by improperly implemented bass. This plus improper amp loading and a few other factors gave you an impression of "fast and airy bass", then some fantasies about "tone colors" come (when bad lower bass is not there). That all is completely understandable and completely expected. That when I very diplomatically told you "give to yours some time" and if you are not deaf and not fool you will discover all necessary things.
 Murataltuev wrote:
Don't you hear in your system the difference in tone clearness when going lower ? Right hand sounds always brighter that left hand. And it is easy to explain technically.

Did you see me asking your expanations?
 Murataltuev wrote:
Why not to try make it better by using compression driver on LF ? Ok, Romy, you are not ready now, but later you'll come to this. I'm sure!In some thread you told that it will be interesting for you to talk about sound of your system with GOTO user. I'll be happy to visit you if you invite me one day. May be I'm wrong, thinking that 8" Fane and 15" Vitavox can't do anything close to what GOTO 146 is doing.

I do not think I am trying to convince you anything besides advising you do not insist to educate me. Honesty this attitude will not bring you traction or attention. Are you trying to advise me to get rid my upperbass and midbass solution sand start experimenting with GOTO 146? Sorry, if you are absolutely clueless what you are proposing.
 Murataltuev wrote:
Ok, Romy...I'm trying to be very polite and respectfull to break through your arrogance, but I give up  I'll not spill infamous Soundex’s empty enthusiasm to your site 
Well, at this point of my life I take your accusation of my ignorance with a good smile.
 Murataltuev wrote:
I'll think about upper bass horn and how to integrate mid-bass horn around my chair and keep it time-aligned.

Hm, it took for you 30 seconds to be convinced regarding the time-alignment. I wish you good luck but I have my heavy doubts that at this point you will come up with anything noble. Again, take your time, do more own experiment and less audio-forum posting - you migh end up with something good accidently.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-21-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 134
Post ID: 22138
Reply to: 22135
Mid-bass horn integration
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:

Well, you need to define what does it mean “can't operate”? Anything can operate anywhere and everything will produce some kind of sound. The point is that you would like a horn operate it is max capacity and a driver to be properly loaded. Only in that condition a driver and horn do not operate faulty (like most of the horns out there do). In case you have a relatively low rate horn you want a horn resonance to be loaded by the mass of air in the horn, or to be “close” to what they call throat reactance. “Close” is a very loaded statement. To have it within a fraction or DB or within a whole DB very much impact sound but in your case you will have an octave or more away. So, can let say 30Hz driver to operate in 300Hz horn? Yes it can but there you need to play only corny piano concertos on YouTube and it will produce questionable sound. Again, there is tone of information at this site regarding the subject. 

Can you suggest the thread to read about it ? So, how many octaves from fs will be loaded properly ?

Ok, there is nothing wrong with that.  A 4” of driver exit into 50hz… hm… It will be good 10-12 feet horn. If your room and your integration methods could accommodate it them good for you. Again, I do suggest you forget for now about your midbass horn and built a normal horn tower with upper bass horn. You will learn about proper integration techniques and THEN will be able to understand a lot about the midbass horns complexity. At this point you do not know what you are asking and in my estimate to go after 40Hz integrated horn would be bit difficult for you and you do not exactly know what you do and what you hear. 

Ok, regarding upper bass horn, keeping myself in compression driver only concept I'll try JBL2490 in 200Hz LeCleach and WE555 in GOTO's horn dedicated for SG-505 (I have it also). I'm also thinking to order 110Hz Tractix from Lukasz (http://horns-diy.pl/horns/tractrix/tractrix-110/) and try GOTO 146 in it.I will post my findings after evaluation.Romy, I think it is Ok, that I'm not just copying what you did, but looking for other options.But general concept is trully yours! Mutichannel time-aligned horn system was invented by you, I believe!

 BTW, the best midbass from playback in my life I heard not from compression driver but from other topology.

This is very interesting! What other technology exists for bass ?

I do not think I am trying to convince you anything besides advising you do not insist to educate me. Honesty this attitude will not bring you traction or attention. Are you trying to advise me to get rid my upperbass and midbass solution sand start experimenting with GOTO 146? Sorry, if you are absolutely clueless what you are proposing. 

Definately I'm not educating you. I just very much impressed with difference in sound reproduction between Supravox and GOTO and now creating some theory about it. But you are right, that I have not much experience to be sure that any GOTO like driver is better than any Supravox like. Can you suggest any speaker to listen and evaluate proper bass implementation? Cessaro Gamma is OK ? Like you have standand compression driver sound which is OK (JBL2440), can you suggest the same standard bass sound ? I'm just interesting to learn what is your reference in bass reproduction.


Hm, it took for you 30 seconds to be convinced regarding the time-alignment. I wish you good luck but I have my heavy doubts that at this point you will come up with anything noble. Again, take your time, do more own experiment and less audio-forum posting - you migh end up with something good accidently.
 
Thank you, Romy. I appreciate your attention to my project very much. Do you think that this idea of integrating mid-bass horn in my room (6x6m) is terrible ?
IMG_0450.JPG
10-21-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 135
Post ID: 22139
Reply to: 22138
I would not go there.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
Can you suggest the thread to read about it ? So, how many octaves from fs will be loaded properly ?

How many octaves from fs? We are taking about how many fractions of dB not octaves! Look for a threated:  
 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=2991#2991  
 
…as a good start.
 
 Murataltuev wrote:
Ok, regarding upper bass horn, keeping myself in compression driver only concept I'll try JBL2490 in 200Hz LeCleach and WE555 in GOTO's horn dedicated for SG-505 (I have it also). I'm also thinking to order 110Hz Tractix from Lukasz (http://horns-diy.pl/horns/tractrix/tractrix-110/) and try GOTO 146 in it.

 
What the LeCleach will do with JBL2490? Do you have an extra 10 inch to waste in your vertical plane? Also, it is kind of funny that a guy who was crying about tonal beauty of GOTO drivers has anything to do with tone-neutered 2490…
 Murataltuev wrote:
Do you think that this idea of integrating mid-bass horn in my room (6x6m) is terrible ?

I do not like this idea. If you have 40-50Hz horn then you do not want it to beam into you from a short distance. You might get a better result if you flip the horns and point them to corners but they will read the wall too march and you would need to calibrate the back chamber of the horn in the position. Also, the corner-firing horn is tricky. Anyhow, if I had 20 by 20 room then I would not go for any 4”-entrance midbass, unless I could smash the walls
 
PS; Name you images unlikely and identifiable.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-21-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 136
Post ID: 22140
Reply to: 22139
Still don't understand what is wrong with low fs for upper bass
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
How many octaves from fs? We are taking about how many fractions of dB not octaves! Look for a threated:   
 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=2991#2991  
 
…as a good start. 
I know this thread and was thinking to use your technique to adjust fs of Supravox's back chamber.As I understand the idea is to tune fs to find the best by ears.
But I don't see any explanation - why GOTO will not be properly loaded in say 160Hz horn because of low resonance ?
How resonance correlates with frequency of proper loading horn ?
 What the LeCleach will do with JBL2490? Do you have an extra 10 inch to waste in your vertical plane? Also, it is kind of funny that a guy who was crying about tonal beauty of GOTO drivers has anything to do with tone-neutered 2490…
I'm ok with tone of 2490 below 500Hz...for now...may be better driver exist, but no choice, unfortunately.Regarding additional LeCleach's inches - for now I have only HornResp models which you don't respect, I know. But model shows more impressive picture with this additional inches, so I have to try.

I do not like this idea. If you have 40-50Hz horn then you do not want it to beam into you from a short distance. You might get a better result if you flip the horns and point them to corners but they will read the wall too march and you would need to calibrate the back chamber of the horn in the position. Also, the corner-firing horn is tricky. Anyhow, if I had 20 by 20 room then I would not go for any 4”-entrance midbass, unless I could smash the walls 
What is your distance to mid-bass horn mouth ? 
PS; Name you images unlikely and identifiable.
 
Sure, no problem!
10-21-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 137
Post ID: 22141
Reply to: 22140
You do not see any explanation
fiogf49gjkf0d
You do not see any explanation is because you are not accustom to think about explanations but wait that explanation will be brought to you. Here is a homework to you: provide answers to the following questions: 
 
1) What is a difference between compression and non-compression driver?
2) What is difference between mass driven system and velocity driven system?
3) What does is mean horn loading?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-22-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 138
Post ID: 22142
Reply to: 22141
Horn theory
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
You do not see any explanation is because you are not accustom to think about explanations but wait that explanation will be brought to you. Here is a homework to you: provide answers to the following questions: 
 
1) What is a difference between compression and non-compression driver?
Compression driver is capable to do high pressure. It has metal diaphragm and powerful magnet. But I don't understand the role of fs and back chamber.

2) What is difference between mass driven system and velocity driven system? 
I'm not sure.   

3) What does is mean horn loading?
Horn is acoustic transformer. It converts high preassure of small diaphragm to normal preassure of big horn's mouth.And it works in this way when loaded. If not loaded than driver is just works as conventional driver inside cask.
But again, I don't understand the role of back chamber and fs in this process.Small chamber works like spring and smaller chamber should move fs higher. But what it causes ?I'll appreciate if you guide me to learn about it.
10-22-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 222
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 139
Post ID: 22143
Reply to: 22142
And now we know why you are not making progress....
fiogf49gjkf0d
Wiki and google are not the best, but is a start:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_driver
Mass related horn issues:http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue4/edgarinterview.htmhttp://volvotreter.de/downloads/Edgar-Show-Horn.pdf
Horn loading:https://www.grc.com/acoustics/an-introduction-to-horn-theory.pdf

We don't have to agree with everything that these links proclaim. It was a simple exercise in finding what is available to get you started. The problem is, if we have no experience, we have two choices: get smart or get lucky. Once we learn a couple of basic terms, we can search this site for applicable answers to questions we did not ask. Most important, it is almost impossible to find any sites that talk about how speaker parameters apply to sound. They only deal with phase, pressure, distortion or frequency response.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-22-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 140
Post ID: 22144
Reply to: 22142
Pretend you are a diaphragm.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Pretend a driver diaphragm, any driver. From front diaphragm "sees" the horn throat and the mass of air in the horn that diaphragm needs to "push". This creates let call front spring.  If a driver has a front chamber than let discard it for now. What a driver diaphragm "see" on the back side? A feedback from back plate that most of compression driver have sealed and the back chamber is "tuned" to the some kind of frequency. The driver has own stiffness of suspension and diaphragm that are made to work in specific frequency range with Fs right under the bottom of that range. This creates let call back spring.  That all is typical. 
 
Now we attached to a driver two horns. One let say 500Hz short horn and another 30hz long and deep horn.  In case of 500Hz horn the mass of air in there is negligible and the front spring force to the driver is irrelevant. Then we load 30hz horn and now the front spring force is very substantial and it impact an movement of a diaphragm in case the diaphragm move forward.  What however happens with back spring? We can't not keep the size of back chamber identical as in two our cases the diaphragm will be experience a different balance of back and front forces. For sure we would like that at any given moment the balance of forward resistance and back resistance to the diaphragm would be identical. Now a few point. We never be having a balance at "any given moment" and it is reasonable to pick one single balance point (similar to anti-skating). it is not a surprise that we pick a point of max excursion - the resonance frequency of the driver. So, the objective is that at the time the driver moves at max distance front it experience the same front spring force as it would be from back spring force in case the driver moves to it max excursion back. In this case the driver suspension work naturally in push/pull mode and do not oppressed by anything.  A front moving of diaphragm pull it back with the same force as the back moving at the same distance. Another point to mention that in real world there is no movement of diaphragms of cause per se. In a compression driver we do not deal with microscopic cone movement and we rather talk about rife or pressure on back and front instead of the actual velocity. Still, it does not change anything and conceptually it work the same. 
 
Now, pretend that we have a 100Hz horn that is driven by a driver with 20Hz resonance. The suspension is too soft and as the cone moves forward the throat reactance (or air in horn) pushes it back. However, as the cone moves forward moves back there is no opposing force to the cone. that is not good. To fix the problem we need to shrink the size of a back chamber to the level when moving a diaphragm front a default position back would created the same force (compression in back chamber) as if the diaphragm loaded to trout resistance world be moving forward. You might think about back chamber as if it is air suspended sealed box. As the diaphragm move forward and fights the front resistance (suspension + air mass in horn) the back chamber creates a contra force (suspension  + negative pressure of back chamber). As the diaphragm hit the own resonance then the back chamber contra-pressure damps that resonance. 
 
Well, in reality it would never happened as resonance of driver way too low? However a horn loaded driver has a few resonances: driver resonance, throat reactance, back chamber reactance. They all very well measurable with impedance jumping. How, how about if we bring all those resonances at one single point and make it exactly at a very lowest frequency we want the horn reproduce? AT MF it would not be important but with bass horns a few extra dBs of EQ at the lower knee it is very desirable. Now we are killing (damping) the throat reactance and make the system to resonate at the lower frequency that our given horn can still pass. So we do not waste any diaphragm movement and implement a completely symmetrical (back and front) load to the diaphragm. 
 
With all theory the main proof is pudding and you need to make your horn your driver and begin to shrink the back chamber, measuring the impedance and listening the sound. The very last 1-3Hz when the Fs will be approaching the horn rate you will hear a very dramatic change in bass structure. It is not absolutely "better" but it is different and until you try and understand it is hard to explain. It requires some thinking about meaning of bass, more cultural thinking about Sound then thinking about the sounds but it is a whole another subject.



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 141
Post ID: 22158
Reply to: 22144
Too low resonance problem of the upper bass horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, thank you very much for very detailed explanation of your horn theory.
Let me present some doubts about it. From physics basics when we have more than one springs (suspension, throat resistance, back chamber) we can consider it as one spring. That means, that the "symmetrical load to the diaphragm" concept is not solid. It is absolutely doesn't matter how symmetrical are front and back springs as at the end there is only one joint spring attached to the diaphragm with single resonance, of course. With back chamber you can tune it, yes. And finding optimal resonance for the mid-bass horn is reasonable. We can use this resonance to extend lower.
But I don't see any explanation of the "too low resonance problem of the upper-bass horn". Can you elaborate on this ?
Thank you!
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Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 142
Post ID: 22159
Reply to: 22143
Horn theory
fiogf49gjkf0d
 rowuk wrote:
Wiki and google are not the best, but is a start:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_driver
Mass related horn issues:http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue4/edgarinterview.htm
http://volvotreter.de/downloads/Edgar-Show-Horn.pdf

Horn loading:https://www.grc.com/acoustics/an-introduction-to-horn-theory.pdf

We don't have to agree with everything that these links proclaim. It was a simple exercise in finding what is available to get you started. The problem is, if we have no experience, we have two choices: get smart or get lucky. Once we learn a couple of basic terms, we can search this site for applicable answers to questions we did not ask. Most important, it is almost impossible to find any sites that talk about how speaker parameters apply to sound. They only deal with phase, pressure, distortion or frequency response.
Thank you for the links. I'm not sure that I'll find answer to my question, but anyway I try.
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 143
Post ID: 22163
Reply to: 22158
Incorrect
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
Romy, thank you very much for very detailed explanation of your horn theory. Let me present some doubts about it. From physics basics when we have more than one springs (suspension, throat resistance, back chamber) we can consider it as one spring. That means, that the "symmetrical load to the diaphragm" concept is not solid. It is absolutely doesn't matter how symmetrical are front and back springs as at the end there is only one joint spring attached to the diaphragm with single resonance, of course. With back chamber you can tune it, yes. And finding optimal resonance for the mid-bass horn is reasonable. We can use this resonance to extend lower.
But I don't see any explanation of the "too low resonance problem of the upper-bass horn". Can you elaborate on this ?

I do not think you express any doubts but rather incorrect understanding.  More than one spring do not make one spring. This cal DC offset. Apply to input of your let day A/D + 3V DC and let me know if you recognize any difference in AC signal. The very same with diaphragm, you do not want diaphragm to have a contra-pressure in one direction leas then in another, this is how you get compression. With lower then rate frequency Fs is also is very simple. If you refuse to make own experiment and confirm the unloading the bass from horn make difference then try to look at the subjects purely intellectually: why you need a driver to reproduce lower frequency then horn can handle and to have more exertion if the whole point to have horn is to get EQ wish would lower the diaphragm exertion. 

Still, I it is your system you can do whatever you want and you do not need to do it “right”. Juts one point I would like to make. At your site a person suggested to make 3-way time align horn system because to make 4-ways horn is superbly difficult. Well, I run 7-way horn system and I know how long time it took to me to realized many cons and pros. I do not suggest that I am “right” but I have my reasons besides my reasons.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-27-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 144
Post ID: 22168
Reply to: 22163
6+ channels is the only "right" for me
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
With lower then rate frequency Fs is also is very simple. If you refuse to make own experiment and confirm the unloading the bass from horn make difference then try to look at the subjects purely intellectually: why you need a driver to reproduce lower frequency then horn can handle and to have more exertion if the whole point to have horn is to get EQ wish would lower the diaphragm exertion. 
Now it is clear! Thank you, Romy!Today I auditioned and measured GOTO with closed hole in back chamber. Mid-bass completely disappeared!
With closed back chamber it works efficiently only from 200Hz! So, I'm going to try it in my 200Hz LeCleach.
Regarding extra inches of LeCleach - in contrast with Tractix this extra inches allows to use this horn right from rate frequency - from 200Hz...looks like allows...I need to experiment to confirm it.

Still, I it is your system you can do whatever you want and you do not need to do it “right”. Juts one point I would like to make. At your site a person suggested to make 3-way time align horn system because to make 4-ways horn is superbly difficult. Well, I run 7-way horn system and I know how long time it took to me to realized many cons and pros. I do not suggest that I am “right” but I have my reasons besides my reasons.
I don't see any other "right" for me.
1. Standard HF driver covers 1000Hz plus region.
2. Horns can't produce right super HF, so the only option is RAAL to match horns sensitivity.
3,4. Upper bass and mid bass horns must be separated, because upper bass region sounds poor in long mid bass horn.
5. ULF is needed to cover 30Hz minus region.
6. Fundamental channel in needed, because using relatively long horn and relatively big and heavy diaphragm for the most loud and dense region of orchestra is not good.
So, 6 channels at least is the only "right" for me.But to get them time-aligned and crossovered right is really a challenge. I understand it.
And I very much appreciate your attention. You are an inventor of this concept and it is so good that you are sharing your experience!
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 145
Post ID: 22169
Reply to: 22168
Hold your horses!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
Now it is clear! Thank you, Romy!Today I auditioned and measured GOTO with closed hole in back chamber. Mid-bass completely disappeared!
With closed back chamber it works efficiently only from 200Hz! So, I'm going to try it in my 200Hz LeCleach.
   
I do not understand what does it mean. Are you saying that you lost bottom response with closed exit hole on the driver back? If with the closed drift from back you have a (loaded!) response  no lower than 200Hz then it is very good. It means that the driver itself has a very tight space on back. You need stop to do it blind and your frequency response measurement is irrelevant. I do not see any need to use the driver in 200Hz horn. You do not think in context of entire system but only in context of your current excitement regarding your dally hypes. Your midbass horn will not do up to 200Hz and if it will then you do not want it to be as it would be too much localizable. So you want the upper bass to be cover with one channel that will be size-manageable and time manageable. It would be 85-120Hz horn. If you do have 200Hz then trash it and stop to buy horn and start thinking. Design system on piece of paper first and do not buy the thing before you know what you are buying. Let pretend that you chose 100Hz horn, then set your Goto drive with Fs around 85-90Hz and begin very slowly to drive the Fs up. Correlate it with what you are hearing BUT give to your at least a month to understand what you hear. From what you are saying now it does not look like you do. Most likely you will need you MF to be up and running at that time. Do not use any tweeter, just run MF (no higher then 9-10) and your upper bass horn and take your time.
 Murataltuev wrote:
Regarding extra inches of LeCleach - in contrast with Tractix this extra inches allows to use this horn right from rate frequency - from 200Hz...looks like allows...I need to experiment to confirm it.
   
I do not think you need La horn as it will be waste of good 5-8” of your vertical space. It is not to mention 200Hz horn that is just a waste of a channel. But it is your system and feel free to do whatever make you happy.
 Murataltuev wrote:
Horns can't produce right super HF, so the only option is RAAL to match horns sensitivity.
Horns can perfectly produce super HF and RAAL, or sensitivity matching is irrelevant. If you multi-amping then sensitivity is not a factor.
 Murataltuev wrote:
Upper bass and mid bass horns must be separated, because upper bass region sounds poor in long mid bass horn.

It not “must be separated”, it might be separated but it has nothing to do with “upper bass region sounds poor in long mid bass horn”. I have no idea why you toss those statements.
 Murataltuev wrote:
5. ULF is needed to cover 30Hz minus region.

You should not be thinking about ULF at this point.
 Murataltuev wrote:
6. Fundamental channel in needed, because using relatively long horn and relatively big and heavy diaphragm for the most loud and dense region of orchestra is not good.
Honestly, I do not know what it was all about.
 Murataltuev wrote:

So, 6 channels at least is the only "right" for me.

You can do whatever you want. 6 channels is a lot of work and of cause it is not “only right”.  As I told you before get Midbass and MF to work together right with whatever section of drivers and horns you want and then I will tell you what to do next. Do not buy anything, do not build any frames, do not strategize anything. Juts make one set of MF and upparbass with regular passive filters and one amp to sound properly.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-27-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 146
Post ID: 22170
Reply to: 22169
1st priority: Upperbass and MF
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

I do not understand what does it mean. Are you saying that you lost bottom response with closed exit hole on the driver back? If with the closed drift from back you have a (loaded!) response  no lower than 200Hz then it is very good. It means that the driver itself has a very tight space on back. You need stop to do it blind and your frequency response measurement is irrelevant. I do not see any need to use the driver in 200Hz horn. You do not think in context of entire system but only in context of your current excitement regarding your dally hypes. Your midbass horn will not do up to 200Hz and if it will then you do not want it to be as it would be too much localizable. So you want the upper bass to be cover with one channel that will be size-manageable and time manageable. It would be 85-120Hz horn. If you do have 200Hz then trash it and stop to buy horn and start thinking. Design system on piece of paper first and do not buy the thing before you know what you are buying. Let pretend that you chose 100Hz horn, then set your Goto drive with Fs around 85-90Hz and begin very slowly to drive the Fs up. Correlate it with what you are hearing BUT give to your at least a month to understand what you hear. From what you are saying now it does not look like you do. Most likely you will need you MF to be up and running at that time. Do not use any tweeter, just run MF (no higher then 9-10) and your upper bass horn and take your time. 
Yes, back chamber is very small. And it is tunable! So, I need 110Hz Tractrix...ok.   
I do not think you need La horn as it will be waste of good 5-8” of your vertical space. It is not to mention 200Hz horn that is just a waste of a channel. But it is your system and feel free to do whatever make you happy. 
The thing is that HornResp shows almost similar (even better for LeCleach) response below 200Hz for 110Hz Tractrix and 200Hz LeCleach.I can't ignore it at my current state of understanding things, so I'm going to try 200Hz LeCleach to see what I can have from it.
Horns can perfectly produce super HF and RAAL, or sensitivity matching is irrelevant. If you multi-amping then sensitivity is not a factor. 
I'm not multi-amping at this stage. And I really don't feel right super HF from horn and like what I got from RAAL. Horns super HF are heavy and agressive, I would say...and violin sound is simplified with lack of thin nuances. Without RAAL I don't feel that violin sounds true.
It not “must be separated”, it might be separated but it has nothing to do with “upper bass region sounds poor in long mid bass horn”. I have no idea why you toss those statements. 
May be it is a result of my exact experiment. Upper bass region in my exact mid-bass horn sounds like driver is not loaded, so sound comes from cask...poor and colored.
You should not be thinking about ULF at this point. 
I agree. I don't care about ULF now.
Honestly, I do not know what it was all about. 
I believe, that smaller weight and smaller excursion brings better sound. Why I want my Fundamental channel's sound to be produced with big and heavy diaphragm ? Of course I need something special for this range.
You can do whatever you want. 6 channels is a lot of work and of cause it is not “only right”.  As I told you before get Midbass and MF to work together right with whatever section of drivers and horns you want and then I will tell you what to do next. Do not buy anything, do not build any frames, do not strategize anything. Juts make one set of MF and upparbass with regular passive filters and one amp to sound properly.
Ok. I'll make upper-bass and MF to work together.Now this is my 1st priority.
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 147
Post ID: 22171
Reply to: 22170
OK, good luck.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
Yes, back chamber is very small. And it is tunable! So, I need 110Hz Tractrix...ok

You might tune the Fs by using a acoustically semitransparent fabric, like Audiotechnica does in their headphones. About the size and type of upperbass horn you need... I do not know it is a complicated subject. The upperbass horn is a main horn of your playback, sonically and esthetically. You have no limitation of driver and you can pretty much chose any cut off horn frequency you want. It might be 120, 100 or 80... it might be anything. There is so many factors to consider before making this judgment....
 Murataltuev wrote:
The thing is that HornResp shows almost similar (even better for LeCleach) response below 200Hz for 110Hz Tractrix and 200Hz LeCleach.I can't ignore it at my current state of understanding things, so I'm going to try 200Hz LeCleach to see what I can have from it.
So, you will have a presumably 100H upperbass and 200Hz MF. It is very reticular. Also, please DO NOT USE the fucking word HornResp in front of me. One more time I will hear and it will be the last time you heard from me.
 Murataltuev wrote:
I'm not multi-amping at this stage. And I really don't feel right super HF from horn and like what I got from RAAL. Horns super HF are heavy and agressive, I would say...and violin sound is simplified with lack of thin nuances. Without RAAL I don't feel that violin sounds true.
You are wrong about it but it is irrelevant as there is absolutely unnecessary for you at this point to worry about tweeter.
 Murataltuev wrote:
I believe, that smaller weight and smaller excursion brings better sound. Why I want my Fundamental channel's sound to be produced with big and heavy diaphragm ? Of course I need something special for this range.
Actually it is incorrect. The requirement to Fundamental channel is not subordinate to this logic. I do not think you should worry about it now.
 Murataltuev wrote:
Ok. I'll make upper-bass and MF to work together.Now this is my 1st priority.
That is OK. I do feel that you might find a need to change your JBL MF but do not do it yet. Also, you drive everything with one GM70. I do not know if it is good amp but if it is then I would give you VERY high probability that you will need to drive MF and Upperbass with different load. If you amp has multiple taps then you will need to use them (hopefully your transformer was winded properly with full length filling for each tap)


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 148
Post ID: 22200
Reply to: 22171
Finally...my MidBass horn!
fiogf49gjkf0d
After all I'm going to construct this kind of mid-bass horn.
It is 35Hz, 4.3m long and 1.4m mouth.

AC_spiral_render2.png
11-08-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 149
Post ID: 22201
Reply to: 22171
GOTO in 200Hz LeCleach
fiogf49gjkf0d
And I've successfully integrated GOTO with 200Hz LeCleach, believe me or not.
GOTO200Hz.JPG
11-08-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 150
Post ID: 22202
Reply to: 22201
I do not think so.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
And I've successfully integrated GOTO with 200Hz LeCleach, believe me or not. 

Marat, I do not think that I buy the adjective "successfully". 

I read the SoundEx forum where you talk about your project and I was observing the quality of collaboration you have in there, the quality of people and the most important the complexity of objectives you exposed to yourself. I am not pleased what I observed and I find it presents insultingly low audio demands multiplied by very questionable cultural pointers.  You certainly can build whatever you want but I do not trust your judgment and your expressions like "successful" do not mean anything for me. The level of the questions you ask here and at your Russian site is just a proof of my suspicions and my disregard. 
 
Since observation and comments of anything that happiness in horn world is kind of in my domain I still will be commenting upon your project but I would like you to know that I have very low expectations. I am sure you will be happy with result however.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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