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12-03-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,208
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 926
Post ID: 17473
Reply to: 17471
Size Matters
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, I think it's a question of how much battery is enough for the application, rather than AC vs. DC, per se.  I can say again that my own (home use) DAC is much better from a battery. Perhaps this has partly to do with its "PS design", which is a wall wart, and no doubt the device's low power requirements factor. Although it runs Class A, 5 hours run time on a motorcycle class battery don't drop the battery voltage significantly.  I remember some big-ass battery packs used for on-site recording installations. However, some of those old mics and tape recorders were phenomenal, as good as any that plug in to the wall.

It is funny to reflect that I once thought the PS300 would solve my front end electricity problems.  Now and then I ponder the idea of battery powered amps. I think a couple of them have been offered "comercially", but I am not familiar with any, and I wonder what (if anything...) they would be good for, other than dodging AC line problems. Everything would probably have to be SS.

Best regards,
Paul S
12-03-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
joaco


The Pacific Coast in Chile
Posts 30
Joined on 12-18-2010

Post #: 927
Post ID: 17474
Reply to: 17472
Too complicated but who knows
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes , romy I understand completely about how you feel with dc i feel the same way when thinking on all my system , to put dc on an amp , directly can be great but not practical , will requiere lot of space , a big battery bank etc etc , so not practical .Of course I feel the whole system need pure clean electricity , but it is my feeling that the low level signals like transport and dac are more suceptible to noise . 
Paul , some times i think that it should only be a matter of capacitance and number of batteries to drive a system , but again i did it to my amp , a 2a3/45 and my dac , but even using this amp which does not consume a lot , power drop in 15 minutes from the battery bank . So we reach a wall here about practical and not practical aproach .but yes , using dc to power a dac or transport is easy but the problem is mainly on the power amplifier or the devives that use high current .
Other thought that i have is that the ics (integrated circuits) produce a kind of noise very annoying , and some times i think the smaller the ic can have less noise but no good noise . So i was wondering if is there a device that use tube rectification and more analog circuits that can regenerate ac wave .
12-03-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,208
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 928
Post ID: 17475
Reply to: 17366
Which Parts are the Good Parts?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Decoud, this is a delayed response to your most recent post in this thread (posted 11-14-11): Indeed, why is it "beneficial" to add DC/AC to a battery only to rectify it again? This has never made sense to me, except with my fuzzy "theory" that the PP DC/AC conversion process somehow produces a "useful dithering effect", or something like this.

Along with 'scope traces shared in this thread, we are told that "acceptable" sound yet comes from "less than perfect" AC sine waves via the big PP outputs.  And in my world, if the electricity contributes to better sound, then the electricity is acceptable, whether I "understand" it or not. Also, remember, the majority of PP users in this thread have said they prefer the sound derived from un-plugged unit. Hmmm...  The un-plugged unit not only avoids/bypasses both the wall power and the AC/DC conversion process, but it still uses a battery AND a DC/AC converter.  However, I think it would be quite difficult to reasonbly "compare" the unplugged PP to straight (DC) battery power, if only because of the differing power (supply) designs for the "test gear".

Still, a good question, and an important one, IMO.

Best regards,
Paul S

12-05-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 246
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 929
Post ID: 17479
Reply to: 17475
The realms of possibility
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Paul, Many thanks for your comments. Surely, AC modulation merely injects 50Hz noise + harmonics thereto, on top of other noise. Even if some kind of perturbation of the power is beneficial for whatever reason it would be very odd for it to be peculiar to 50Hz and the process of generating it. Someone interested in that would be better off taking the DC and contaminating it in diverse ways in pursuit of the same effect or better.

In any event, isn't it a straightfoward comparison simply to jump the DC of the PP to the the amplifier, post the rectifier? Rgds, D 
12-05-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,208
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 930
Post ID: 17481
Reply to: 17479
To Rectify DC
fiogf49gjkf0d

Jumping the bridge would only get one the PP's "pure" DC (I hope...), and the question that churns in my mind is, how does the PP's DC/AC converter not mess up the sound?  Yes, there will likely be switching noise, and it is also quite likely that there is some sort of step-up involved, to keep the processing unit smaller.  And I suspect that this step-up is - somehow - the source of the "umami".  If to jump the amp's bridge, then the AC/DC is still in play along with the battery, and according to people who comment online, AC mains and possibly self noises get through the PP balwarks.  Since there seem to be a few people who get acceptable electricity most of the time from operational PPs, and since this aceptable AC may yet scope poorly, where and what is the critical additive factor?  Remember, even the big PP only uses a 7 Ah battery, which is what I use to drive my tiny DAC. And, as Romy graciously pointed out, using a really big battery would fuse the PP AC/DC circuit...

Best regards,
Paul S

12-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,642
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 931
Post ID: 17498
Reply to: 2931
About dedicated line fuses.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I was considering for a while making some re-arrangement with electricity lines in my house: to add and remove some lines from my stand by generator, to power pool from different circuit and some more changes. I was kind of considering running a dedicated line but I am a bit defensive with it. I do have dedicated line the power my PP3000 and the rest playback. I installed it last summer but my regular power output from the wall in my listening room do sound better – I made many experiments.

Recently I had been taking with electricians who offer slightly different service about which it too early to talk. While dealing with them they scoped to me idea of dedicated line: from the poll, a separate meter, separate power entry into the house and 3ga copper 240V runs directly to playback.
I am very much considering doing so. So I wonder did anybody had any experience with fuses? By the code it has to be min 100A entry fuse and of cause I would like to have 20-30A fuse at the load side, right next to PP3000. So, what kind of fuses would be best to go? I do not want to have circuit breaker, I do not know what is inside but I think it might be not as good as conventional disposable glass or ceramic fuse with fuse holder. The contacts for this fuse are visible and might be servable and it has no contacts besides the fuse holder. Perhaps I am wrong. Does anybody has any information or experience with high power fuses and thier sound?

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 311
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 932
Post ID: 17501
Reply to: 17498
Dedicated line problems
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy says I was kind of considering running a dedicated line but I am a bit defensive with it. I do have dedicated line the power my PP3000 and the rest playback. I installed it last summer but my regular power output from the wall in my listening room do sound better – I made many experiments.

It would seem that the first priority would be to figure out why the current (internal?) dedicated power line is performing so poorly. And then avoid whatever was done there. (Maybe you have but you didn't mention it here. Is it in an earlier post? I would be interested to know what is going on.) I find it hard to believe that an upstream fuse of normal industrial quality could have more effect than all the combined powerline garbage streaming into it and through it. My own power company proudly says that they are adding copious amounts of presumably digital monitoring and regulation devices to the grid everywhere they can stick them. The amount of digital hash will only rise. Maybe you also will need to construct a separate listening room detached from the house (grin).
12-10-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,642
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 933
Post ID: 17502
Reply to: 17501
Line, fuses and breakers
fiogf49gjkf0d
Nope, I do not know why my current dedicated line does not sound right. This is the whole point of my concerns – I am afraid to invest money and efforts with 3ga line “from the poll” and end up with inferior result.

Regarding the fuses. I am kind of contemplating between fuses and magnetic of hydraulic circuit breakers. For sure they will not be common trip breakers that loose contact with time. Magnetic breakers do not loose force and reportedly pulling force increases with the current. Monster does audio rated magnetic circuit breakers but I do not know if they are any good. I am sure it has to be good commercial magnetic circuit breakers, probably the older production from 50-60s when companies do not try to save each penny and quality of material war higher.
It is difficult to make any guesses about it and I have absolutely no idea what to base my judgment upon.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-10-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,208
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 934
Post ID: 17503
Reply to: 17502
The Sound of Better Power
fiogf49gjkf0d
Fuses are seldom used in modern installations, but they are still widely available. "Better" breakers are also available from commercial suppliers, for whatever they're worth. It is true that "regular" breakers "soften" over time, and also in hot weather, or when run regularly with higher loads. But I don't know what this means in terms of sound, apart from the obvious tripping. Perhaps the biggest benefit from a new dedicated line would be QC, from one end to the other, with solid connections, unbroken home runs and a good, unshared ground. Any dedicated line should at least have continuous/home run copper wiring. A nice upgrade would be copper buss bars at the service; however, these are hard to find. Still, who knows what sort of problems would yet get to the hi-fi via such a line.

Indeed, the 50's and 60's commercial equipment was the high-water mark for this gear. By and large, even the copper was better, and some of this stuff even has the copper busses.

Best regards,
Paul S
12-10-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 311
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 935
Post ID: 17504
Reply to: 17503
Unintended consequences
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul S says Still, who knows what sort of problems would yet get to the hi-fi via such a line.

You raise a very interesting point. If the grid line were known pure than it would be highly likely that a consistent and significant benefit would be found from tapping it directly. However if the grid line  has certain kinds of distortion (which seem to be increasing yearly) then receiving the "untouched" input from it can raise problems that would be different from tapping an internal line with other circuits on it. The other circuits overlay whatever "impurities" each generates on top of the distortions that come in through the grid line. By doing that (as long as they are not too severe themselves iike dimmers) they tend to randomly smooth out the peaks and valleys. Once that mixed signal hits the Pure Power inputs it will look different I assume than the direct line from the grid would look. If the grid line has more asymmetric distortion I wonder if AC regenerators would be more, or at least differently, affected by that input. For example if we draw a thin black line through a painting it ruins it for everyone. If we were however to spread that black line evenly through the entire painting it would register as an insignificant dulling of the sheen.

Its unfortunate that we can't run the grid line through a vacuum tube. I've long felt that one of the advantages of well designed vacuum tube amplification is that it filters out a lot of grunge from the signal path compared with transistors..
12-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005

Post #: 936
Post ID: 17519
Reply to: 17504
Something forgotten?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Perhaps it would be the ideal place to put Dima's ideas about "tunable" power isolation /regeneration systems to work?
12-15-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,642
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 937
Post ID: 17525
Reply to: 2931
Instant power transfer switches
fiogf49gjkf0d
The miserable PurePower people are still sabotaging to make the Bypass Switch in their regenerators. Only God in his wisdom knows why they are so impotent doing it. The Switch is already there and activated what the unit in overload, all which is necessary to have it remotely activated by hardware or by software. For less capable sonically devise a bypass switch would be dangers as it would expose the misery of the devise sound. The freaking PurePower unit does have fine sound and at the same time they do not make remote-control bypass switch – the tool of instinct demonstration of their good sound. If you ask me then I would say that it is superbly stupid.

Anyhow, regardless how inert and slow PurePower in their implantations of long due futures I do need this bypass switch in a week or so to handle some other things I do with electricity. The PurePower say that they use some kind of external home-made transfer switch. I truly need to have something like this now, even it is one extra unnecessary step and something that would make imposable to use all 10 PurePower outlets.

Does anybody know where can I buy a ready to go Instant transfer switch? It needs to be Instant as the digital load the connected to it shell not drop, so I guess it need to be fast to do it within a few periods. It needs to be able to care 30A. I do not know it is need to be mechanical or most likely some kind SS switch. How about own sound?

Does anybody dealt with such switches before or know a recourse that sells them?

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-15-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Canuck
Posts 8
Joined on 12-16-2011

Post #: 938
Post ID: 17526
Reply to: 17525
Power
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy        Have you ever tried a PUREPOWER device feeding something like the Torus RM20 which  has a huge transformer and then out to the components? The Torus stores a lot of energy in those huge transformers. Do you feel this would have any merit?
   Also, what about skipping all that and using something like a highend honda inverter generator( can even use remote startup). In your opinion would something like this work ?
12-15-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,642
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 939
Post ID: 17527
Reply to: 17526
Torus RM20
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Canuck wrote:
Romy        Have you ever tried a PUREPOWER device feeding something like the Torus RM20 which  has a huge transformer and then out to the components? The Torus stores a lot of energy in those huge transformers. Do you feel this would have any merit?
   Also, what about skipping all that and using something like a highend honda inverter generator( can even use remote startup). In your opinion would something like this work ?

Canuck, I did not use automobile inverter, so I can’t comment on them.

Regarding the Torus RM20. The idea to use a good quality isolation transformer after the PurePower generator is VERY lucrative.  Since I was unsuccessful to use multiple PurePowers the idea to isolate let say digital from analog is very promising. Unfortunately I personally was not victorious to use the isolation transformers that I tried, I have 4-5 very good quality isolation transformers, including one 3kW very high quality one very similar or even better to what to what  Torus and others use. The PurePower has own unique “sonic crisp” that in my view does not go through my isolation transformers very well. Also, my isolation transformers did killed the PurePower lower bass.

Sing all of it, I do not know if Torus RM20 would do the same as my isolation transformers. I do not know what in fact doing on in the Torus units. The regulation that they use is not necessary after PP2000. They claim those Torus lower distortions and restore waveform and the claim they do it without any resonators. I do not know how it might be done without resonators or with active circuit. It is possible that they BS about the restoration of waveform. I do not know.

In the end of the day I would try the Torus RM20 devise, try it instead of the PP2000, before and after PP2000. Still, I would demand very clear explanation of the operation principle of this unit. They claim:

“Torus Power’s simple, advanced but elegant solution resolves incoming power quality problems by harnessing the transformers combined inherent inductance, capacitances, and resistance characteristics to act as a filter, thus exceptionally high levels of attenuation are attained with absolutely no reliance on any external components. Through the elimination of filters, series inductors, shunt capacitors, or other passive reactive devices commonly required in the power circuit, Torus products start with a noise floor at the theoretically lowest level.”

So, it is possible to use internal leakage induction and cross-turn capacitance to form filter but it would be no where enough to set the filtration resonance. Do all that they can do it to set very small filters but it would do nowhere near what might be called “restoration”.  The reality is that core of the transformer itself is very good filter and hardly pass anything more than 200Hz. They need to learn the difference between “filtration” and “restoration”. Restoration implied an active circuit and I do not think that Torus has it.

Saying all of it I think it would be worth to try Torus. Try as anything else.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-17-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Canuck
Posts 8
Joined on 12-16-2011

Post #: 940
Post ID: 17536
Reply to: 17228
Good power bad power
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

It was an interning event last night. The sound turned incredibly bad from electricity perspective. I did not have anything like this for a year or so it was very bad and it was clearly electrical. The PP2000 was working fine and the distortions in the raw side of the wall were incredibly low – it was almost a perfect sinusoid. Still, despite that there were no visible signs of problems the sound was horrible and disconnection from the grid did fix all problems immediately. I was wondering what it might be.

Today I was talking with Pure Power asking about the shipping date of my PP3000 and I asked them if they experience anything similar. They told me that they did observe that they have witnessed that noise between neutral and ground med some systems go sound. This is very interesting as I did not monitor this noise. I was under impression that this noise is constant for any given inhalation but PurePower suggests that it is not. Well, yesterday there was first day of rain, perhaps it wet ground and did make something special ground condition that made the day special. Who knows…

I uselessly measured the voltage between neutral and ground and anything under 1.5V I considered acceptable however I did not look into the noise level and noise structure.

Today sound is fine and I did make some initial digs. I will compare them with the day what the sound will be VERY good or VERY bad. Take a look

This is the neutral and ground noise at the exit of PP2000.  All above is .5V per square.

Electricity_Nutral_Ground_PP2000_Exit.JPG

 This is the neutral and ground noise at the entrance of PP2000.

 Electricity_Nutral_Ground_PP2000_Enter.JPG

This is the neutral and ground noise at the wall, the entrance of PP2000 with PP2000’s main switch off.

Electricity_Nutral_Ground_Wall.JPG

This is the same as above only with .05V per square.

Electricity_Nutral_Ground_Wall_10X.JPG

Then I desided to hear how the noise sounds. I took my HP selective voltmeter and filter out all sun 10.000Hz. The nose was very distinctive 33dB and with very characteristic whistling.
 

Electricity_Nutral_Ground_Noise.JPG

Let to see what other day will bring. I am very curious to know what it will be. Is it possible that THIS nose makes all difference? It would be not a big deal to shunt this nose with a cap; I wonder how it will affect sound….

Rgs, Romy the Cat


    You know, this got me thinking. I wonder if barometric pressure has anything to do with it?  I have often noticed a great deal of physical noise from high voltage power lines when there is a significant shift in barometric pressure.
12-18-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,642
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 941
Post ID: 17539
Reply to: 17355
A second PurePower for PC?
fiogf49gjkf0d

If you follow this thread and my successes and tribulation with PurePower regenerators than you remember that I had problem with sound running two PP2000 for right and left channels.  So, I had everything, including my DAW plugged into on PP2000, recently into PP3000, and I felt that it was better configuration. Theoretically I would like to have computer with all its switching power supply to be ploughed into some kind of separate isolated secretly, apart with the rest of my analog, linear PS gear but the idea did not go too far.

Two day back, making some experiment with PP3000 and having it turn on and off I got sick from my dying DAW get constantly rebooted. So, I took my old PP2000, install it in basement and powered my computer from it, driven this PP2000 from another half of 240V line.  So, effectively I got PP2000 driven from one side of 240V and powering only computer and PP3000 driven from another half of 240V powering my entire system with analog PS. The PP3000 and PP2000 not are sitting very far from each other, in fact in different rooms. PP2000 runs 7% load and PP3000 with power amps on does around 45% load.

You know I like the result on analog side (PP3000) very much. The sound got a bit more “useful crunch”. I did not check the DAW sound and it is frankly complicated to do. Now, I am not sure that some “gain in sound” on my analog side was due to elimination of the noise feedback from DAW power supply or it was juts normal improvement of electricity this time of week/month/season. As time goes by I will be able to say it but for now it looks like it is a good configuration. I need to shut down the PP2000 and to see it is it is still has no affected the sound of PP3000. The point is that PP2000 and PP3000 are still connected via ground of the playback. I need to reconnect all devises (monitor, USB switch boxes and anything else that use PC) to make sure that it will be no path (on internal side) between that PP2000 and PP3000 across the playback grounds. The only path that I would like to remain is the connection from my DAW to A/D and D/A converters across Lynx card. My premises is that Lynx card runs AES/EBU Digital I/O digital interfaces that by default employ isolation transformers, so it will be no noise ground loop of any kind between PP2000 and PP3000. It is possible that within this, no grounds connected configuration 2 PurePower unit would be able to work in the same playback. The idea to separate switching and linear power supply into different regenerators does strike me as promising, or at least logical.

Let see how it will work eventually.
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-18-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,208
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 942
Post ID: 17543
Reply to: 17539
Something in Common
fiogf49gjkf0d
Something interesting to think about is that both "halves" of a 240V line share a neutral wire and a ground wire, whether or not the hot wires are "split". 


Best regards,
Paul S
12-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,642
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 943
Post ID: 17548
Reply to: 2931
A new dedicated power line
fiogf49gjkf0d

I will be making another experiment tomorrow and will try to install a new dedicated power line for audio. I say “another experiment” as the dedicated line that I installed as soon I move into the hour did not sound good, I have no idea why.

This time I will do slightly different. It is be 240V 6ga copper run but not into the walls, along with the rest of the house wires but directly to the dedicated power receptacles behind my playback, in the diagonal of the house, pretty much perpendicular to any power wires. It will not be too ugly and the run will be at the selling of the basement, well it will be ugly but it is basement, who care how it look like in there.

I did some research about circuit breaker and chose one model that I feel better. It is two-poll 40A breaker; I was not able to find this type for lower current. So, it will be 40A power line terminated with L5-30P power outlet, rated for 30A. The PurePower people accommodated me with twist-lock power cord for my PP3000. I do not know what gage wire it will be use but I presume it will be 30A rated as well. The audio circuit breaker will be the very first breaker in my first main power panel, right after the 200A main breaker. The 240V feed will run just behind the location where the PP3000 installed and then it will be split on two half of 120V. Let see how it all works and it gives any better sound then my utility power output (that I admit sounds the best in my house, I have no explanation why.)

The idea behind this dedicated line is to minimize the amount of noise that goes into PP3000. I use a lot of dimmers in my listening room. The SS dimmers, in the way how uses nowadays are one of the most horrible things for sound. If you have one single active dimmer in your house then you audio NEVER sound right. I have zillion tests and experiments about it over the years. The PurePower regenerators absolutely immune to dimmers, I mean I can use 10 dimmers in my listening room and the sound, if I power everything from PurePower is undistinguishable from sound with no dimmers at all. (I can very objectively measure the noise from dimmers outside of PP3000). Still, if the PurePower does not worsen sound when dimmers are active then it still might be beneficial to power PurePower with cleaner power lines. I have refrigerator in house, the heater pumper, the pool pump, the house lighting, and all kitchen appliances, at least 3 computers all time on (2 of them Compaq and HP Servers with dual power supplies), UPS station for the servers…. They are not a lot but they do produce some local noise that might (or might not be) worth to isolate or at least to minimize.

Again, I am not confident that this new version of dedicated power line will make any difference but the only way to say anything is to try. The proper way to do it would be to run a dedicated parallel run directly from service entry, across a new dedicated power meter and to own dedicated 100A entry panel serving ONLY ONE dedicated audio power line.  I might convert this line that I will be installing tomorrow into something like this but I need to educate myself about sonic consignees of power meters. Perhaps I will be the Phase 2 of the project and it will not be difficult to do if I chose to go there. Let see if the Phase 1 will be beneficial and if it was then I can take a notch further.

So, if I have no posts after tomorrow than I have electrocuted myself.

Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 944
Post ID: 17549
Reply to: 17548
That's a whole lotta work...
fiogf49gjkf0d
...I recommend you take notes as you proceed.

Also you might consider running specialty AC cable (not Romex), to wit this item from JPS Labs:

Power AC In-Wall Cable

The first high-end power cable for home or professional dedicated AC wiring. Dramatic improvement over any commercial cable offering excellent clarity and tonality. Made in USA

2 x10 AWG (5.26 mm2) + ground

UL® VW-1, CSA FT-1, 105 C

600volt/30 amp - $ per ft.

http://www.jpslabs.com/productlist.shtml

 I can get the stuff for you (or whoever) in any length. I had it installed in one home and the fellow was very happy -- but that wasn't very scientific.

c
12-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,642
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 945
Post ID: 17550
Reply to: 17549
I hate those people.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks, Clark, I will go with regular commercial Romex.

There is no such a thing as “specialty AC cable” and the thing that they write about their cable is crap in my estimation.

“Our custom high-end Power AC In-wall cable is a 10 AWG (5.27 mm2), specified for use in supplying high-quality, noise rejecting, non-current limiting AC power while enhancing audio or video quality beyond standard commercially available cable. Its Optimized Field Matrix (OFM) construction allows it to inherently reject noise, allowing the ultimate in subtle details, while it's shear size supplies the high power demands of the largest of amplifiers and systems. This cable was designed to allow any system to perform to its highest potential with total resolution. Specifications are easily met at 30 amps with heavy duty 600 V, UL® and CSA, 105 C rated, 2 x 10 AWG (5.27 mm2) current carrying conductors, plus ground (3 conductors total). Outer diameter is approx. 0.6 inches (1.5 cm) overall but flexible and easy to install. This unique AC cable noticeably improves performance and resolution in any quality installation, and once installed as a dedicated run to the main panel avoids the need for extensive conditioning within the room. Please specify and install JPS Labs Power AC In-Wall cable into your critical audio or video room, recording studio or editing room for the finest possible results without the worry of ground loop hum and noise affecting audio and video quality. Do it once, right! “

Are their cable “noise rejecting”, “non-current limiting”, “Optimized Field Matrix”, really? That all is crap! They claim that “cable was designed to allow any system to perform to its highest potential with total resolution”. What the empty verbiage! No one design cables. Even POD selling these cables for $12.000 a meter use standard commercial Belden wires that anyone can buy for under a dollar per meter. No one “design” cable for targeted sonic results and the people who make this claim are idiots or presuming that their customers are idiots. I do not make any negative claim specifically against JPS Labs Power cable but absolutely insist that NO ONE in position to make statement that they have a wire, not even component wire but electrical wire (!!!) and to insist that it will provide the “ultimate subtle details in sound”.

The fellow you described was very happy but would be identically happy is hit dedicated line was made not by audiophile-approve wire but by wire from Home depot? Mind you: there is no talk about price here but just about a regular common sense. If somebody insists that they have wire that with identical gage has less non-current limiting, do not provide the impedance data per foot, claim the “noise rejection” beyond a regular twisting and insist that his cable improve “performance and resolution” then I think it is enough to discard the claim as it too much remind me the typical BS of audio sales whores.

Anyhow, I wools like to stay with good commercial solution that in my estimation shall be superior to the promises of audiophile underwriters.
The Cat
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 946
Post ID: 17551
Reply to: 17550
Hmmm...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Anyhow, I wools like to stay with good commercial solution that in my estimation shall be superior to the promises of audiophile underwriters.

A "good commercial solution" to amplification would be, oh, say, Crown. So why bother pursuing "audiophile" tube stuff? Clearly you know (Lord knows how!) what's in the JPS wire so what's the use of listening?

Hence: Home Depot here we come!

c"
12-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,642
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 947
Post ID: 17553
Reply to: 17551
JPS Lab conversation.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I just had a conversation with the guy who runs this JPS Lab. I did anticipate much more idiotic presentation, similar to what they have at their web site. To my surprise the gay was rational. It is not that I agree with all that he was saying but it was not pure BS. So, what they offer is the regular 10/2 cupper wire but they are twisted already. Twisting of cause is good but it is just 10ga. They of cause claim that it is fine threading of very tightly packed stranded wires, according to them it is much better. Well, also according to them it has no resistance difference between commercial wire and the fine-stranded. Sure the JPS Lab told me that his wire are made from better copper but I frankly poo-poo that as nowadays all copper is made in the same plant in China.  The JPS Lab wants $24 per foot of that fine cable. They do not do anything larger then 10ga and they do not do 4 wire cables to run 240V. Well, it is expensive and the result is not particularly predictable. If I need 2 runs to furnish my 240V across 100 feet then it will be neat $4.800. For this money they need to demonstrate something more than just assurance that it will sound better than any commercial cable. The JPS Lab guy explained the benefit of his cable in the same way how the better aftermarket power cord would be beneficial to sound. Honestly, I did not dive to have this discussion with him as he is just the guy who sells power cords and I am the guy who use them and have too strong opinion about power cords in order to argue this subject with anyone.

Anyhow, according to the JPS Lab they did make the experiments with compare sound of commercial wire and their “expensive” wire. They might be right but I do not feel like to pay $5K to do it myself. So, I will go with heavy gage commercial wire and I do feel that larger gauge would provide much less resistance, much less voltage between ground and neutral, better options for cable clamping and bolting (that acts as cold soldering). So, go fat commercial wire. If sometimes the JPS Lab would like to bit for the opportunity then they can send me test weir and I my A/B their dedicated line ageist my fat commercial-wire made. If their line win sonically than I do not mind to pay for their wire. As now I have no evidence of the benefits of their wire.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,642
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 948
Post ID: 17554
Reply to: 17553
Some thoughts about dedicated lines.
fiogf49gjkf0d
This subject is interesting but unfortunately there are more options then time in life to experiment with all of them. The idea to use fatter cable is right atop of surface. It is not about current caring but the lower impedance of the cable. Remember in US the ground and neutral are connected ether at panel or at transformer on the poll, the lower resistance of the wire between load and the ground/neutral bridge the lower voltage between ground and neutral will be (let pretend that there is no linkage in load)

The twisting wire is fine to get rid the antenna even but to use the armed cable even better.  There are some metal flexible pipes, but the best would be to run steel pipe. For a cable of 4 ga for instance it will be big ass pipe.

It might be a good idea to cryogenically treat the dedicated ran.

If it was completely up to me then I would have extra 20-30 feet cable running in coil in some kind of bucket and I would like to fill the basket with different liquids, like I did with phono cables (aka POD cables). If you hear from my that the best sound I got when I run my power line through a bucket with 21 year old Johnnie Walker then be my guest to feel that I turned crazy.

The most interesting thing is that my dedicated line will be feeding not my playback but PP3000 unit. Will the PP3000 be the buffer that will render all experiments with dedicated lime irrelevant? Very possible but I it is hard to say as the freaking PurePower people still did not make the bypass switch.  I did ask the JPS Lab if use of regenerator before the load still would dement to use his better cable in dedicated line. The guy went to assuring me that the use of the regenerator is irrelevant and the bester cable and better power cords are still the most important things in playback. Well, I did not argue but for myself I noted that  the pure guy has no idea what he is saying and that PP3000 in my estimation deliver more prominent result then any cable he ever heard.
 
I do feel that different options in dedicated line still might be effective but I have absolutely no idea how to estimate this effectiveness. The most disturbing thing is that now my dirty utility line sounds better then my dedicated line. I very much afraid that it might be possible that the PurePower regenerators in fact need to be plagued in dirty and high impedance lines. There is login in it: the switching PS insert a lot of dirt back to power line and the dirt need to have come contra-load from grid, Think as it is a transmission line – if the power line is clean and low impedance then the noise from regenerator reflect back. However, if the line has a lot of own harmonic noise and high impedance then it randomize the reflection of noise and greatly attenuate the transmission line termination back-wave. This is inspiration that backed by nothing and who knows? I did in my old place sometime note that dirty utility line had better sound (after PP2000) then my dedicated line.
 
Well, I hope tomorrow evening I will have some answers….
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-21-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Canuck
Posts 8
Joined on 12-16-2011

Post #: 949
Post ID: 17556
Reply to: 17554
Dimmers and bad power
fiogf49gjkf0d
  From what I understand, if you have dimmer switches they will present a "noise" problem for anything on the same panel.  One thing that could help and possibly significantly would be to do a pony box off the panel and hopefully as far away as possible...
12-22-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,642
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 950
Post ID: 17557
Reply to: 17556
Dimmers are not subject to me anymore.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Canuck wrote:
  From what I understand, if you have dimmer switches they will present a "noise" problem for anything on the same panel.  One thing that could help and possibly significantly would be to do a pony box off the panel and hopefully as far away as possible...

Canuck,

I do not consider dimmers as anything wrong or bad for sound in my playback as whatever worsening of sound dimmers do this “whatever” very well taken care by PurePower units. Whatver PurePower dose or dose not does but it works 100% perfect to address problem with dimmers. I did many experiments with many dimmers I have (and I love to use them to create special lightening in my listening room) and I did not detect that sound of bad electricity typical for dimmers was passed arcos my PurePower devises. So, in case you do not use PurePower then you are right – dimmers do poison the halt of the phase that they used on. If you do use some kind of active devise like PurePower then dimmers (coursed the devise) are irrelevant to you. I do not insist that only PurePower does it. There are plenty of regenerators. Filters and other devise that might or might not help against dimmers. I comment only about what I know – PurePower does it and has no adverse effects while it does dimmers, at least I did not detects it yet.

Romy The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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