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06-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 1151
Post ID: 19455
Reply to: 19451
My PP2000 does NOT like a balanced input
fiogf49gjkf0d
 PurePower wrote:
We routinely operate our 230 volt models with two phase +/- 120 volt input.
That's interesting. I use a couple of 5KVA balanced transformers. I tried to feed my 240V PP2000 with one of them, but the output was non-symmetrical. It seemed to me that only the +120 volt phase was being regenerated.Mani.
06-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009

Post #: 1152
Post ID: 19456
Reply to: 19455
UK balanced power
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Mani
The UK  240 volt utility system  does not parallel the North American 120 volt system - and is also quite different from the North American 240 volt scheme used for household stoves and dryers that uses split phase 120 volt legs to present a 240 volt supply. In our plant, we have both a 208 volt supply generated by 2 120 volt phases of a three phase supply to power our nominal 230 volt international units as well as a step up transfomer setup converting our 120 volt supply to 220, 230, or 240 as desired. So it is a matter of apples, oranges and tangerines.
To answer Georges question, we did not buy a balanced power product in order to lab test his situation. We can't see the utility of using both products. If using a balanced transformer to cancel noise resolved his local utility power issues then we are pleased for him. If he wants to find out if PurePower regeneration offers an even better result by providing unrestricted current and accurate guaranteed voltage, he should take the opportunity to try our product. He can plug it in to the wall outlet and listen. If he wishes to experiment he can plug it into the balanced power output, by all means. Should that provide double the pleasure he could make 2 companies happy at the same time.




06-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1153
Post ID: 19457
Reply to: 19442
The Pure Power 3000+, the day one.
fiogf49gjkf0d

After 4 days of suiting in boxes in my listening room today is my day off and I decided to dedicate it to play with the new Pure Power 3000+.

PP3000+.JPG

I desired to use just records and connected all amps, preamps and phonostage to old unit, disconnecting everything else. I relisted the first movement of the Tch 6, Mravinsky 1961, I know that recording very well, and even it is not the best “audio quality” it has in there all the I need to hear and even more.

Switching 5 cables to PP3000+ was no brainer.  The unit shows 50% load.  All power cables are lifted ground (in old and new units). Bothe of the PP3000 and PP3000+ are plugged into the same dedicated power line, phase A.

No, contrary to the comment I nears I have no noise from speakers of any kind, in fact it was no difference at all from noise perspective. Just for fun I measured the AC nose on the filaments of my DHT of the Milq mid channel. The folks who played with direct heated triodes know that this place is the most sensitive. I have 0.7mV with old unit and I had the very same with new. I maxed out the phonostage at its full 84dB gain. No noise of any kind, the same as with old unit. So far so good, the folks who reported that PP3000+ had “noise via loudspeakers” need to find out how to address own ground loops.

The initial sonic result is auditable instantly at the very first bar – a large portion of HF extension is not there anymore. The the glitz and confusion at HF is removed. With older unit the lower bass is slightly softer and defused, the sense of rhythm is slightly less pronounced, the first violins slightly earlier chock my own recording crescendos, the woodwinds re more lay back, more creamy, with no whistling intend. There is nothing else to say – it is as simple as that.

It is not about the proverbial HF noise however, it is more about the new definition of beat that the new unit has. The new unit injects some very definitive sense of rhythm. I can’t compare it to anything else then to bring an audio association. If you try to compare the CEC TL0 transport again peaty much anything else out there then you know what I mean. The TL0 reads very hard with spectacular rhythmical articulation.  The same rhythmical articulation the new PP3000+ feels like showing only the PP take it further: it feels like it throws some kind laser-distinctive rhythmical differences.  This new super pace is not about rapidity of sound but rather singularly of sound that is not necessary pleasurable thing. I did switched back to the old unit a few times and to a degree I do see the merits of using the old unit legato-like rhythm.  I need to listen a bit more and to get use to this super articulation of the new PP+.  Does this super verbalization make sense musically?  I do not know year, this is attractive and might be even addictive but I need to think about it. For whatever it worth the new PP3000+ looks like a new unit with very different performing capacity.  The PurePower people told me that this is basically the old unit that took many of the old unit ideas further. That might be the case but for sure this is the example where the quantitative approach did give birth to a new definition of quality. Now I need to think how this new quality might be used in context of my playback. At this point I do feel that this new super articulation has in a way always mechanical nature and I am a bit cautious about it. I need to think more about the way to use this new opportunity.

I did not measure anything, did not test bypass, buttery operation or anything else. As the initial exposure I would say the result did exceed my expectations and was well worth it. It is certainly a very new sound from Pure Power and if they learn how to make their units stable and reliable then they could stand up very arrogantly and the product they have is very unique.  The best thing so far that Pure Power took his old wonderfully sounding unit and converted it to a new generation of Pure Power sound. Considering my firm believe that they have no idea what they do (neither anybody else BTW) I was very afraid that they would kill the accidently-wonderful sound of the old PP3000. They did not do furthermore then took it to very right direction. That is very pleasant to see.  It is possible that what Pure Power does has already nothing to do with electricity itself but rather it possible that they got a grip how to pre-condition power before PS in order to make it to sound more interesting.  One way or another but I feel it is very stimulating direction to go.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 351
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1154
Post ID: 19459
Reply to: 19457
Hmmmm
fiogf49gjkf0d
The post sounds like the 500 word synonym for "analytical". In my experience most changes from a satisfactory prior model means it gets more analytical rather than more like live music. Your description is very close to what I would have written about the Audience power filters. They do work fine in an AV system however. Hope this changes upon further break in.
06-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 1155
Post ID: 19460
Reply to: 19448
Pure Power 3000
fiogf49gjkf0d
I will reserve judgment until I receive the unit. I hope I actually get it. I think since Romy has got his, maybe there is hope. If I ever get the PP3000, I will certainly report that here and post a review of the sound of the unit as well.Adrian
06-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1156
Post ID: 19461
Reply to: 19459
Hm, interesting….
fiogf49gjkf0d
I would not use the word analytical but rather mechanical. Analytical, at least to me implies sorter degree of investigative anal retentiveness and I do not feel that what is going on with my current PP3000 sound. Whatever it is does not hurt my felling of musicality and does not take my attention away from performing intend. It is rather a bit too mechanical by texture and slightly over-antisepses the ingredients of sounds instead of depicting the sound as whole. Think about you making a pasta salad with 15 ingredients and you slightly undercook all of them. So, eating the salad you get that distinct feeling of individual elements that do mix into the whole ensemble of taste but they distinctly say to you what is what. It is not so bad in music but it would need in my view a bit more gestalt-like behavior. Saying it I think that to a degree it is an interesting environment to experiment with sound in THAT framework as I do see some benefits of it as well, I juts need to look into it more. I truly would like to be able to use the bypass mode as  it might refers to the sound of electricity we have today in power lines. We do have during the last 2 week a very good electricity and I need to be able to observe the performance of PP3000+ in context of the quality of electricity we have in the mains. the burning-in might be a beneficial thing of cause…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1157
Post ID: 19462
Reply to: 19461
Is the Bloom Still on the Rose?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Sometimes when the harmonic bloom is diminished, especially upper bass and lower MF, I would describe the sound much as I hear from you now.  I have 20 minutes at the most worth of patience for this, then I am out of my seat.


Paul S
06-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1158
Post ID: 19465
Reply to: 19461
Mechanical no more
fiogf49gjkf0d
This morning I sent the wifey to work and sat listening my music. As I played the first track it was absolutely self-evident to me that the mechanical isolation of sounds that I reported yesterday was no longer there. Even the unit was ruining all nigh I really do not buy the break in theory as it was too much. It is not that I neglect break in but the difference too much to be believable.

I desisted to two more the old unit and straight wall sound and then I realized that the Mechanical sound from the new PP3000+ has returned. So, eventually I recognizes that the mechanical sound from the new unit come from the fact that I have old unit sitting unload in regeneration mode right next to the new PP3000+. I have reported that I was not able to make more than one older PP3000 to work together in my system as they sound too bright. The new PP3000+ apparently has the same behavior only instead sounding too bright it sound mechanical when it near old regenerators. Interestingly that it feels that the old units do not sound bad if the new units are at proximity.  So, to get better sound I need to shot down the old regenerator completely and then I have no mechanical feeling from new regenerator. 

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1159
Post ID: 19466
Reply to: 19465
Hm, something is wrong.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hm….. I am not sure what is going on.  Decided to plug the whole playback to the wall and to hear how it would sound.  As I did it felt kind of lost. It sounded spectacular, in fact if sound as wonderful as the new PP3000+ regenerator.  Does the new PP3000+ is as transparent as doing all double conversion it has virtually no impact to the sound of electricity. Honestly I am doubt but with all my desire to recognize the difference in sound between the PP3000+ and wall sound I do not see too much difference. I think with new regenerator it has very slightly more dynamic accent but to such low degree that I am not sure that I am not hallucinating. Hm, do I need to wait when electricity in the wall turn worse then to see the PP3000+ contribution more distinctly (we have very good electricity last 2 weeks)?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 351
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1160
Post ID: 19468
Reply to: 19466
Full circle
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think we are back again to the issue of the dedicated AC lines and what external (outside of the home) garbage can enter through them. My own anecdotal impression is that there are two opposing trends from the power company. One is positive in that they are replacing old equipment. On the negative side increasing digital monitoring devices are throwing more nasty garbage into the powerline. (A good question is how far such noise can travel from the source.) I think Romy when he was measuring such things a year or two ago encountered bursts of extreme powerline noise. But then they would suddenly disappear. Since the dedicated line minimizes within home pollution it should be ok in the good days. I have seen comments at other sites where people moving to the dedicated line felt that solved their problem and they didn't need the AC regenerators. For myself, I would say my (old version) PP unit mostly evens out daytime and nightime audio system performance rather than making some more fundamental change. It's probably more essential in countries which have Very unreliable power grids.
06-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1161
Post ID: 19486
Reply to: 19468
Bypass mode
fiogf49gjkf0d
My own playback is not operational from PurePower for now but last night I visited a local audio guy who run him playback from two new PurePower+ units (right and left channels) and one old PurePower (LF section). It was very fine sound, probably the best sound I hear in his room. For sure I would not attribute the result explicitly to PurePower - he has A LOT in that room. Still, it was very interesting as his units have now a bypass switch that did work perfectly fine. I was surprised as during the Bypass operation the system did not sound as bad as I expected. We do have good electricity in New England nowadays, not as great as we had last week but still not bad.

You can say whatever you want but switching his playback back and forth to bypass it was very self-evident that I did not want to hear that playback in bypass mode.  BTW, the PurePower+ in bypass mode is not a true bypass – some sort of filtration still is in the power path. Still, the result was very demonstrable. I wish the Pure Power made this Bypass feature remote controllable and I wish they specify what is in left in “signal” in Bypass mode. I wonder also if they shut down the whole regeneration during the Bypass mode or they just rout the power across the regenerator. It would be nice if they do shut down the whole re-generation as it would make the whole unit to be “non-radioactive” when it in Bypass mode.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-14-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 1162
Post ID: 19489
Reply to: 19486
Blinded
fiogf49gjkf0d
What would be even nicer is a randomised switch together with a record of your preferences without knowledge of which mode the machine is in. That way you really know. But of course the company would be insane to do that as most people will probably not know the difference.
06-14-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1163
Post ID: 19490
Reply to: 19457
Pure Power 3000+, corrections and further observations.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Ok, it is a lot of information on my plate and I am trying to make sense of it. Below I will share my observations about the new Pure Power 3000+.

The first thing first.  In the post I made a few days back:

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=19457   

I expressed the VERY exuberant feeling about the new PP3000+. The feelings were justifiable as it was truly spectacular result but unfortunately it was an erroneous observation. How little I knew that the unit I got was stuck in bypass mode and in fact was not regenerating anything – it juts sent the wall electivity to outputs. Next day when I put a scope to the outputs it I realized that it has identical voltage profile before en after the regenerator and activating/deactivating manual bypass did not make the unit to click. So, the wonderful, truly phenomenal sound that I experienced that day was the sound of the “super electricity day” (I have them a few times a year) and the PP3000+ WAS NOT responsible for that Sound. I do feel like an idiot. An interesting observation that does count: the sound of the naked electricity directly from the wall during the “super electricity day” was way more interesting than the sound of old PP3000. I did not have the new unit operation at that day and I can’t say how it would behave during the “super electricity day”.   A few audio folks around me did note that these few days electivity was spectacular for Sound.

Ok, back to the PP3000+. I called to Pure Power and they were very surprised. They claimed that among many of PP+ units they sold they never had a problem with apparent stuck relay or anything like this. I do not know how many among the new PP+ units they had 3000W units. It is possible that the relay they use across the board in the new  PP+  units is too flimsy for   3000W model but it might be juts an accidental fluke.  Furthermore the very same unit that I have they did flip back and forth at a customer before me and it was perfectly operational. Well, possible, the shit happens. They requested to return the unit and they informed me that they will hold the shipping of new units unit they inspect the unit I have and figure out why the relay stuck in bypass. I find this is a commendable behavior, perhaps they are begun to take the quality control more serious. Manville they sent me another unit that I spent time to listening it last night.

Last night the electrify was not even close to perfect and it was very auditable when I plug the whole system in the wall. It was not good at all and it had all symptoms if ill electricity. The sound of the naked way was not something that I cared.  I was wondering how the sound of new PP3000+ would stand against the older model PP3000. Beside the general curiosity if the new unit worthy sonically I would be considering to get the PP3000+ for myself. The deal on the table is ugly: no upgrade, not trade in – buy if you like it. So, naturally I was very much interested to see what the new unit does against the older one.

First thing - the mechanics.  The old 3000 unit is huge and heavy, the new is two boxed and highly manageable. This is a big plus. The unit has in addition to normal 10 or so power outlets 2 twist locks. Only God in his infinite wisdom knows what why Pure Power desired to do it. Instead to add 4 more normal power outlets they made the stupid twist locks. They promised to send the twist locks power cords, I wonder if they want to enter the business of power cords making? I hope they not. I truly wish they did not do the twist locks but they for whatever reasons are very proud of their twist locks. I never seen people complain that power receptacle is disconnect itself from the wall but I have seen a lot of people who do not have enough power receptacles – I am one of them. It is not to mention that most people will lift the grounds on the PP’s output – how will you do it with the twist locks connectors? I think that the twist locks was a big shoot themselves in foot.

Next: the Operation. This was a bit strange. The new unit claimed to be much powerful then the old one but it does not feel this way and the auto-bypass kick in the new unit sooner than old one.  When the Melquiades PS are charged it take LOT of current to saturate the huge Milq’s input chokes.  As the choke begin to charge it has virtually shorted and the inrush currant is huge a first view periods.  Considering the amount of the input chokes in Milq the inrush current is very high but as soon the chokes are charged the amp draws very stable and constant current. The old 3000 unit NEVER switched to bypass while it was charging the Milq’s input chokes. The new unit does switching itself to bypass for a second as apparently the Milq’s startup current is too much for its peak current. This is very strange as the new unit shall be more powerful and shall have might higher tolerance for peak current. The old and new units both indicate 50% load as the whole system is up, so where I do not see any excessive power of the new units.

The measurements.  I did not do a lot – just put the scope to the new and old unit with identical load. I was VERY surprised. The new unit claims significantly lower distortions and the Pure Power folks assured me that the “fuzziness” atop of the wave will be much smoother. This is very much NOT what I saw. With all problems that the older unit had it had more or less textbook sinusoid (if they were properly operating) but it is not how the new unit look at the scope.  My estimation that the new unit has at least 5-6 MORE harmonic distortions as the wave does not look nice at all. I might post the pictures of old vs. new but trust me – there is nothing to look in there, the older unit has way better sinusoid. The sinusoid crossing-zero corruption when the PP drives input choke is identical to the old units. I hope PP would be able to address it in new model but they did not.

Ergonomics. This is not good from my perspective. The display button that flips the display mode is something the people would use once or twice during the whole life of the unit. The Bypass Mode button in contrary is something the any people would use a few time a day.  You are home, listening your playback and you run the regenerator. You stopped listening and you switch the unit in Bypass Mode – to save the electricity and do not waste the regenerator to keep hot your transports, DACs, computers and the rest SS audio gear - why you do not need good power if you are not listening.  As now you need to hold two PP3000+ buttons for 5 seconds to engage and disengage the Bypass Mode – VERY uncomfortable and the indication of Bypass Mode is hardly visible from more than 3 feet. It need to be a separate bright light indicating that for Bypass Mode is On, a separate stand alone button for Bypass Mode and IR or RF remote control for Bypass Mode. This Bypass Mode button is the ONY button that user will be interacting with. BTW, it sound like the switching the unit in Bypass Mode not only does bypass but also kill the regeneration. I do not know if that is correct, PP folks need to confirm that, but as the unit runs regeneration I can hear a minor HF noise coming from most likely the  pulse transformers. In bypass Mode this noise is gone, which means the DC/DC convertor is not running

Sound. It is no brainer: the new unit does sound notably better then old one. It is across the board: bass, dynamics, HF noise, in any audible characteristic. I have no idea why the new PP+ measures so ugly and sound still better. It was very interesting to switch the new unit to operate from wall to battery (with no bypass mode). The sound is virtually the same BUT when the unit runs from battery I feel that sound is slightly less loud. I have absolutely no explanation for it.

So, it is interesting all together and I will continue to play with it for a few more days. Despite the apparent good sound that the new unit demonstrates I have to admit a very unpleasant fact: the sound of “super electricity day” was significantly more stimulating then the sound of all regenerators combined.  Saying that I need also admit that during the “super electricity day” I did not have the new PP3000+ operational. It might be, juts might be that even the “super electricity day” the PP3000+ still might be shining doing own regeneration.  This experience however was lost for now…

To summarized everything. Pure Power after the famous Chinese accident have to come up with own version made in Canada. They did. If the PP+ would be identical to older Chinese-made units then Pure Power world have logical problems. Luckily for  Pure Power, intentionally or accidently, the new PP+ units are sonically more advance then the older Pure Power units. It shall give to new PP+ some momentum. I think the main attention for Pure Power shall be functionality, stability of operation and quality control. The do have a good product in my view and I hope then would not screw it up with running away QC.

I personally feel that if Pure Power get grip over stability of own predation then they would need to come up with next version of PP+ that would lock all aspects of measurable stability across a wide range of loads. The same version has to have a luxury options. The Pure Power nit has not been look and feel like a tank that was making in 1930s. It has to have remote option (in room and IP), it has to show the operational parameters more elegantly. This is 21 century and all of those bells and whistles cost nothing nowadays. The USB plug-in with wireless IP costs now $20 and pretty much nothing in wholesale. The main issue with such devises - the Sound- looks like Pure Power got control. Now is the time to indulge the Pure Power customers with friendly and respectable operational functionality. Also, if the Pure Power feel that they know why their unit sound so good (I believe that it is accident but they insists the they know) then I would like Pure Power to try making own SS amplifier for a 150-300W, employing their PP+ power technology. It will be more then compatible on market with any another SS amps the do not use Pure Power regenerators.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-14-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009

Post #: 1164
Post ID: 19491
Reply to: 19490
A few answers to Romy's requests
fiogf49gjkf0d
We are very happy that in spite of your  wishes for specific features, the new PurePower+ units are performing in your system the way we intended.

You may find the  appearance of the voltage sine wave a little less elegant, but is a small compromise for the improved specifications. The new units have a near unity power factor, a big improvement in voltage accuracy (+/-1% vs +/-3%), and much higher continuous power and peak output. 

I will take it as a given that you are not in love with Hubbell twist lock receptacles. Please remember that they are a "bonus" addition to the 10 Hubbell 5-15 receptacles - same as before - and do not occupy space that could be used for more duplex outlets. They make an excellent high contact receptacle for high power components, or to attach a shielded power bar for those who need additional receptacles.

Reliability, and with it a vastly improved customer service record, was a key objective in the new design.  Our experience to date supports that intention.

An even better information display and wireless control capability are features we had to sacrifice to expediency. They are in the works and will be a simple modular upgrade.





06-14-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 1165
Post ID: 19492
Reply to: 19490
All this certainly makes me glad I've waited. ;-) NT
fiogf49gjkf0d
.
06-14-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 351
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1166
Post ID: 19493
Reply to: 19492
Nothing lost but the waiting
fiogf49gjkf0d
Dear Mr Johnsen,

    Not that you had any choice. But you missed out on the extemporaneous mods.
06-14-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1167
Post ID: 19494
Reply to: 19493
Waining the pure power...
fiogf49gjkf0d
This subject of waiting is very interesting with PP and it is what I am contemplating now: to get the new PP3000+ or to wait until ther new units mature a bit.  I do like the sound of the new generators, this is given, but I do not see why the same sound shall not come with proper measurements and extended functionality. Of course there is a chance that in future  the PP units will do better measurements and will lose their wonderfull sound... As you see there are sabjects to consider...


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1168
Post ID: 19495
Reply to: 2931
A very good read about the "smart" meters.
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://stopsmartmeters.net/smartElectricityMeters.htm


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1169
Post ID: 19497
Reply to: 19494
The thoughts out loud.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I was keeping thinking about the new PP3000+ and if I want to get it now. This morning I had a very good listening session and a few time used the new and old units. Yes, I see a merit to get new unit. The PP3000+ has slightly better bass, significantly less pollutional HF energy and the music all together sounds less in face with it. There are a few other aspect of PP+ advantage. The Pure power give me time to Monday and they want me to buy the unit or to send it to back as they need to send it to some kind of review to west cost.  I do not need more time to conclude that I want the PP3000+ but I do not know if I want it now.  Despite the wonderful sound the PP3000+ measured dreadfully and I do not uy the Richard’s excuse that “appearance of the voltage sine wave a little less elegant, but is a small compromise for the improved specifications”. I do not know why the unit can’t output a “perfect voltage sine wave” into near resistive load, preserving all positive sonic characteristics that PP has obtained. It is not to mention that according to the specification the unit has 1% of THD but looking as the crooked sinusoid I can see in there at least 5%-8%. How with those THD of the power the unit sounds so good is a mystery to me! I am a bit afraid that in a few months they will fix the problem with sine wave and if I own the PP3000+ at that time I will be sorry that I did not wait.
 
Well, there is another side of the medal. In a few months when they fix the problem with sine wave they might loose the sound that PP3000+ has now and then I will be  very sorry that I did not risk with the current version of PP+. Who knows, it might be the current version of PP3000+’s sound  is unique and never will available again and by passing the opportunity I have on the table I am passing a only one of its kind chance to own a unique power regenerator.  I have seen this behavior with older Pure Power products when sometimes it took a few vintages of their products to get them to sound right.
 
As now I am 80% incline to get the new units even though each time I touch the Bypass buttons I curse like drunken seller – It is hugely inconvenient. Amy the Kitten proposed informed me that if I like that regenerator so much then she would like to buy it for me as a birthday present.  The sweet and holly naive wifey!  I read to her a long lecture that she shall not ever to buy for her husband the subjects of male audio indulgent and if she insists to do so then she might get for me a female gust star for our birthday Ménage à Trois.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 351
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1170
Post ID: 19498
Reply to: 19494
Set free to find a new coloration
fiogf49gjkf0d
Perhaps Romy has found a new kind of distortion that wonderfully cancels out some other distortion that has made its appearance under cover of the great electricity day. Of course when the great electricity day becomes the astonishing electricity day or the not quite great electricity day then who knows? Normally measurements are not the decisive factor for an audio component but I think for the AC power it might be.
06-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 1171
Post ID: 19499
Reply to: 19497
Mystery of PP3000
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
It is not to mention that according to the specification the unit has 1% of THD but looking as the crooked sinusoid I can see in there at least 5%-8%. How with those THD of the power the unit sounds so good is a mystery to me! I am a bit afraid that in a few months they will fix the problem with sine wave and if I own the PP3000+ at that time I will be sorry that I did not wait.


Romy, I feel like you are channeling Harvey Rosenberg and Michael Gindi. Just a joke. But keep in mind that the sine wave is not the sine qua non, no pun intended, for good sounds. Ideally, it should be correctly a perfect pure sine wave, of course, but there may be other characteristics of the electromagnetic regeneration that are very important that are not being measured here, which may contribute to the good sounds.

Lots of equipment, you already know, measure quite well, but do not approach the Sound properly.

However, if you do not purchase it, then please ask Richard to send it directly to my house, and I will happily evaluate it also.

Adrian

06-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 351
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1172
Post ID: 19500
Reply to: 19499
Chain of being
fiogf49gjkf0d
Adrian says ,
"However, if you do not purchase it, then please ask Richard to send it directly to my house, and I will happily evaluate it also."

I don't think that in the great chain of being, you are the next stop for PP. Just saying.
06-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1173
Post ID: 19501
Reply to: 19498
Who know what is it?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, the problem is that we do not know why electricity sounds good or bad. At the day when I had a perfect natural electricity day the sine wave was classically clipped. For all intended purpose it should sound like crap but it was not.  We also know that any PS would by venture of having iron core transformers does not pass any HF noise. Still, we do fight with noise in power lines.

Anyhow, I more and more think, and I have proposed that idea before, that better sound we get from for instance Pure Power regenerators has absolutely nothing to do with Pure Power “fixing” electrical fundamental voltage or current sign wave.  The PP might juts precondition power to make amps PS to sound better and it very much nothing to do with sound of original electricity. It might e PP juts caught the topology of D-amp output stage after witch electronics sounds better, in this case they do not need to do any regeneration and just need to run 1:1 AC/AC converters. It would be fun if PP would try to harmonic correction  with their output stage, in the way how the Exact Power was trying to do  but they would need to run way higher sampling rate and I do not think that PP has engineering resources to under tike the task, not that they need to. The idea of let say 500W small PP-like AC/AC converters without any chargers, butteries, rectification, DC converter sounds very attractive to me as well….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1174
Post ID: 19502
Reply to: 19501
No Battery, or Battery Only?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Of course, all the mfgs. claim their AC regenerators and correctors put out perfectly shaped, perfectly clean sine waves, and they also say that this is why their devices "work" (and never mind if they don't actually work...).  But people who use the PP have claimed for some time that the PP still does what it does when the 'scope says the PP output stinks.  Does this mean the battery is superfluous?  What about the other PP users who claim that the PP sounds better unplugged from the wall, running off its battery only?  And isn't it the battery that distinguishes the PP from otherwise-similar devices that don't actually "work"?  Since the PP battery is so heavy, maybe the ticket is to sell/buy it without a battery and then DIY that part of it.




Paul S

06-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 1175
Post ID: 19503
Reply to: 19497
Remove uncertainty of future black boxes-at a cost
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I was keeping thinking about the new PP3000+ and if I want to get it now. This morning I had a very good listening session and a few time used the new and old units. Yes, I see a merit to get new unit. The PP3000+ has slightly better bass, significantly less pollutional HF energy and the music all together sounds less in face with it. There are a few other aspect of PP+ advantage. The Pure power give me time to Monday and they want me to buy the unit or to send it to back as they need to send it to some kind of review to west cost.  I do not need more time to conclude that I want the PP3000+ but I do not know if I want it now.  Despite the wonderful sound the PP3000+ measured dreadfully and I do not uy the Richard’s excuse that “appearance of the voltage sine wave a little less elegant, but is a small compromise for the improved specifications”. I do not know why the unit can’t output a “perfect voltage sine wave” into near resistive load, preserving all positive sonic characteristics that PP has obtained. It is not to mention that according to the specification the unit has 1% of THD but looking as the crooked sinusoid I can see in there at least 5%-8%. How with those THD of the power the unit sounds so good is a mystery to me! I am a bit afraid that in a few months they will fix the problem with sine wave and if I own the PP3000+ at that time I will be sorry that I did not wait.
 
Well, there is another side of the medal. In a few months when they fix the problem with sine wave they might loose the sound that PP3000+ has now and then I will be  very sorry that I did not risk with the current version of PP+. Who knows, it might be the current version of PP3000+’s sound  is unique and never will available again and by passing the opportunity I have on the table I am passing a only one of its kind chance to own a unique power regenerator.  I have seen this behavior with older Pure Power products when sometimes it took a few vintages of their products to get them to sound right.
 
As now I am 80% incline to get the new units even though each time I touch the Bypass buttons I curse like drunken seller – It is hugely inconvenient. Amy the Kitten proposed informed me that if I like that regenerator so much then she would like to buy it for me as a birthday present...

The Cat

* If this box has a significant positive impact on your system, I think you should purchase it. The upside is that you get demonstrated better sound in your system and added enjoyment today. And it costs just a few thousand dollars (I mean free as it is a birthday present). This is not some elegant magazine text but the results in your System.
* It would be nice if it measured perfectly or well but given all the power unknowns does it matter? How has your experience been with well measured power solutions to date? This is not perfect and I don't expect a perfect solution ever. 
* If the next generation PP+++ is worse, you maybe out of luck. If it is better at least you hedged your bet and can still sell this unit for say 60% of your cost. That in Wall Street jargon is a decent hedge; lock in future known results/ remove uncertainty for a cost (say 40% of today's box) and keep upside opportunity. You also get to enjoy better music in the interim and some comfort knowing the opportunity was not missed. 

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