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03-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 3967
Reply to: 3964
Cessaros cost is like “reality” in Las Vegas.

 RonyWeissman wrote:
Well romy will probably disagree or maybe find it off topic but I am sorry there is huge margins built in somewhere if someone is trying to sell me wood cabinets with TAD drivers for 140k $.   One of you guys can add it up for me and tell me if I'm wrong.  thanks

Actually it would be interesting subject to mention the Gamma prices; I think it still within the context of Cessaros thread. I have no problems that “coors” gently brings to the given thread sales, almost marketing agenda. My problems are not with the people who promote what they like but with the people who can not handle the consequences of criticism. In case of Cessaros Gamma, with knowing the more details I do not see lot of rational for criticism, at least from my side.  Very generally I do not support an idea of the “last LF chants” as a horn because it is not open-bottom solution:

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=3665

Sine it is $150K acoustic system then it should be form my point of view a more or less ultimate statement and 30Hz of most likely EQed bass (even presumably properly done) it is not where I would like to stop for $150K. it would be similar to Lamm ML3: not matter how it might be OK sounding amp but topologically it is not a final solution for SET amplifier and therefore it might cost $126K but it does not worth and an ultimate SET solution.

RonyWeissman is right the Gammas are 3 horns, 4 drivers and it is it. Sure Cessaros oblige anyone who do for Gammas to buy a two sets of the LF horns that are probably more expanse to ship, install and to make then the rest Cessaros horns.  It is possible that the Cessaros LF section worth it I do not know – more data or audition is necessary. If they are stock TADs than we all know this prices and the entire Gammas (with LF) cost around -$10K or pretty much the very same as cost of my Macondo – they basically the very same systems. The Cessaros since it a prediction should twice less expansive to make. How Cessaros went from 10K+LF for 150K? Well, I think it is the way how it works in dan hi-fi. We are not bitching that sneakers that we pay $70 cost 34 cents to make we kind of use to it….

Well, I less concern about the absolute praise of Gammas – I let worry about it to the folks who are considering to but them - but I would rather to look at the Gammas form a different perspective: what options a person who is wiling to spend $100K for acoustic systems has today?  I can name quite a few over $100K speakers that are incredible crap.  There are some over $100K speakers that are not craps but have quite a lot of problems that I feel suck an expensive acoustic systems should not have.  From my point of view if Gammas are properly done than even with TADs Gammas should blow many over $100K speakers out of water and I think this fact would be a good excurse for the Cessaros folks to price their top model at $150K.

It thinks it should be well understood that when we are talking about $150K level then there is not direct rational that relates the price to anything and the price refers only to an abstract number with which the sales people can still get away with. So, warmly accepting the Cessaros I mostly appreciate what they were truing to do form a perspective of horns progress but I completely indifferent and sightless to the prices they are wiling to extort from this customers. Perhaps if I pay my living expenses with  audio sales I would feel different but since I do not I see little difference if Cessaros would cost $15K or $150K…

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-16-2007

Post #: 27
Post ID: 3968
Reply to: 3967
Cessaro Bass
Sorry my post did sound like marketing speil, don't know much about the Cessaro bass horns, I believe they are a back loaded, 8 bass units with the Gamma four with the Beta, I will try and educate myself further and report back when I have heard the Gammas next month , regards Keith .
03-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
NBC
California
Posts 22
Joined on 08-10-2006

Post #: 28
Post ID: 3969
Reply to: 3968
Some guesses about modular construction of Cessaro line:
(Note: I've neither seen nor heard these speakers)

Cessaro ALPHA:

TAD TD-4001 2" driver on tractrix horn with 56cm bell (approximately 250Hz). TAD claims response from 600-20KHz. Given that the midbass is essentially a direct radiator (therefore no equalized upper knee via fronthorn loading) with backloaded horn augmented LF, and that the lowest recommended xover for TD-4001 is 600Hz, the MF is probably crossed between 600-1000Hz.
* http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/45/200/1083/TD-4001/index.html

TAD ET-703 .5" supertweeter, claimed response from 5-45KHz, not sure where HP rolls in
* http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/45/200/1083/ET-703/index.html

TAD TL-1601x series woofer in backloaded horn, with stated LF to 35Hz when used as 1 unit/channel
* http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/45/200/1083/TL-1601b/index.html

In the past, Bruce Edgar told me alnico TAD TL-1601x woofer sound quite sound nice in ~6cft sealed box, and can make nice living room friendly 2-way crossed around 1-1.2KHz. He and others have said TAD TL-1601x efficiency is actually lower than published ~97.5db/w (around 93-94db/w). Bruce, however, felt TAD TL-1601x are not the best woofers for midbass horns. (Because, for example, due to lower effeciency bandwidth product). (The only woofer TAD makes really suited for front horn loading is TM-1201).

I once heard 2-way Bruce made with TAD TD-2001 on 650Hz tractrix and (I believe) JBL 2220 in backloaded cabinet modeled (but improved over) the JBL C34 (http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/plans/C34.htm). Crossover was 1200Hz (*12db* LP / 6db HP). Effect of backloaded horns is mainly to increase efficiency of rear wave output from < 50Hz (although the penalty is lower bass is out of phase with rest of woofers' MF output). It sounded suprisingly good (to me, and several people, given my reference points 4 years ago).

I haven't personally attempted it, but if you look at the specs, TAD TL-1601x is less than ideal as (frontloaded) horn woofer, as compared to, e.g., EVM15L, JBL D130, JBL 2220 and Altec 515G. Since I havent heard it, I cant make any assessment how TAD TL-1601x sounds in backloaded horns. Since TAD TL-1601x in Cessaro Alpha is essentially still a direct radiator (albeit LF reinforced via rearloaded horn), upper range extension of the woofer should be same as if it were used in sealed or vented box.

Cessaro BETA

Appears to be exactly the same as Alpha (including height and style of cabinet, MF horn, TAD TD-4001, TAD ET-703 and TAD TL-1601x), accept for approximately 100Hz (90cm bell) tractrix horn mounted to front of what appears to be the SAME back-loaded horn used in Alpha. (The midbass section *may* be a frontloaded horn with sealed back, but given modular construction of Cessaro product line, I'm betting its BOTH front and rear loaded.) From an eyeball measurement, the throat appears to be about 6" diameter. As stated above, the TAD TL-1601x is not the best woofer choice for front loaded horns. But who knows, I have never heard one and it may sound good despite the phasing of the rear wave bass output.

Cessaro GAMMA

Taller main array cabinet than Alpha and Beta, and adds TAD TD-2001 (http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/45/200/1083/TD-2001/index.html) on approximately 400Hz tractrix (30cm bell) horn. In addition, the midbass tractrix fronthorn is 100cm, a bit larger than Beta.

I'm currently evaluating TD-2001 on 650Hz poplar wood tractrix and have not yet listened to TAD TD-4001. Bruce Edgar (and others) feel whereas TD-2001 has good depth presentation comparable to alnico JBL 244x, TD-4001 is more in your face, and not as extended and smooth up top as TD-2001.

I believe BACKLOADED BASS/MIDBASS horns used throughout Cessaro product line are EXACT SAME units throughout Alpha, Beta and Gamma...

* Alpha: 1 backloaded midbass horn per channel

* Beta: 1 backloaded horn with 90cm bell tractrix fronthorn + 4 backloaded midbass horns

* Gamma: 1 backloaded horn with 100cm bell tractrix fronthorn + 8 backloaded midbass horns

(Finally, there is one small metal horn + driver shown here (http://www.cessaro-horn-acoustics.com/viewer.html) which I cannot figure out where it integrates into any of the systems. However, I have not taken time to translate whole site into english.)

Neil
03-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
NBC
California
Posts 22
Joined on 08-10-2006

Post #: 29
Post ID: 3971
Reply to: 3969
TAD drivers you have evaluated
Hi Romy,

Since you have certain opinions on TAD/Beryllium sound, Im curious:


1) Which TAD drivers you evaluated (2001, 2002, 4001, 4002, 4003) ?

2) With what Fc horns?

3) With what horn materials?

4) With what Xovers?


Thanks!
Neil
03-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 3972
Reply to: 3971
TADs, Cessaros and... it was not me...
 NBC wrote:
Hi Romy,

Since you have certain opinions on TAD/Beryllium sound, Im curious:


1) Which TAD drivers you evaluated (2001, 2002, 4001, 4002, 4003) ?

2) With what Fc horns?

3) With what horn materials?

4) With what Xovers?
Neil,
 
They were 2001 and 4001, sometimes during 2000-2001. I used them in AG Trio’s MF horns and crossed them at around 1000Hz. Also, on a different note if I may…. We all in out own and I did not think that it makes sense for you or anybody else to express opinions on somebody’s behave. If you are wiling to present in your posts Bruce’s opinions then you should (trust me, you should - I know what I am taking about) preface your comment with something like this: “It is not what I think - it was what Bruce Elgar found for himself beneficial to share with me”. I hoe you understand where I was coming from.

Rgs, Romy the Cat

PS: Nice write up in the Cessaro guesses, BTW.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
NBC
California
Posts 22
Joined on 08-10-2006

Post #: 31
Post ID: 3974
Reply to: 3972
True
“'...preface your comment with something like this: 'It is not what I think - it was what Bruce Edgar found for himself beneficial to share with me'. I hope you understand where I was coming from."


Yes, I understand what you are communicating to me.

Neil
05-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-16-2007

Post #: 32
Post ID: 4353
Reply to: 3257
Interesting Horn loudspeakers

Just a quick note ,I went over to Germany and listened to a pair of Cessaro Alpha's at the home of TW Acoustic's Thomas Woschnick, I thought them absolutely superb, far more 'real' than any other speaker I have heard, ( impossible to hear everything of course ) . I  made the decision to buy a pair almost instantly , going over to collect the speakers after the Munich 'Hi-End' show, I am also going to listen to a set of Cessaro Gamma's, at the designers home, if there is any interest I will post my thoughts on the Alpha's and Gamma's and any other interesting horns I hear at Munich.

05-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 4354
Reply to: 4353
It might be an experience….

 coops wrote:
Just a quick note ,I went over to Germany and listened to a pair of Cessaro Alpha's at the home of TW Acoustic's Thomas Woschnick, I thought them absolutely superb, far more 'real' than any other speaker I have heard, ( impossible to hear everything of course ) . I&nbsp; made the decision to buy a pair almost instantly, going over to collect the speakers after the Munich 'Hi-End' show, I am also going to listen to a set of Cessaro Gamma's, at the designers home, if there is any interest I will post my thoughts on the Alpha's and Gamma's and any other interesting horns I hear at Munich.
Coops,

absolutely, it would be very interesting your feelings about the Gammas. What you will be listening then at the designer home please pass my compliments for my nomination of his Gammas design as a commercials “the most promising ‘best’ loudspeaker”. If would be interesting to sit with him to talk about drivers used in Gammas-like designs, amplification, driver-amplifier interfaces, filtration and etc… The next time what I visit Germany I will try to be invited in his listening room. I wish you to have a good electricity what you will be there – it might be the experience….

Rgs, the Cat

PS: I moved you post in this thread, I hope you do not mind.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-25-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-16-2007

Post #: 34
Post ID: 4454
Reply to: 4354
most promising new speaker
Romy just a quick post, after the Munich show I had the oppurtunity to spend a few hours listening to Ralph Krebs home system, the Cessaro Gamma's, super sound, the antithesis of almost everything I heard at the MOC, regards Keith.
05-25-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 4455
Reply to: 4454
Some curiosity ....

 coops wrote:
Romy just a quick post, after the Munich show I had the oppurtunity to spend a few hours listening to Ralph Krebs home system, the Cessaro Gamma's, super sound, the antithesis of almost everything I heard at the MOC, regards Keith.
Very good.

There are a few areas where I would express curiosity....

1) How he drive the thing. Horns vs. bass channels. Do they consider to supply own electronics along with the Gamma installations
2) Did he try any “open bottom” LF section to compliment his horn-loaded bass
3) Can his TAD driver or the modifications that he presumably use care serious tone and do not be the typically TAD-techy.
4) From which maximum close distance the horns still hold good vertical instigation.
5) What upper bass driver is used and how it loaded.
6) What kind means they provide for an average customer to synchronize the angle of the upper home with the aliment-maintaining exertion of the upper horn.
7) Are any Gamma installations in US?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-26-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-16-2007

Post #: 36
Post ID: 4457
Reply to: 4455
most promising new speaker
Romy Hi, Raplh uses a 300b push pull, but the power supplies are massive,  parts alone 15K Euros, each channel has a separate supply, the pre-amp again two massive power supplies , he prefers to use eight of the horn loaded bass bins, although I know he admires a friends system, where the bass is stacked and the horn forms part of the wall . He uses TAD drivers, as to tone, a piano sounds like a piano, a trumpet like a trumpet, there is no artifice . Ralph listened to and measured every driver available and he told me that he does enjoy some of the character of the GOTO for example, but when measured their specification is often far from the stated, also each driver varies from the next , Ralph sits about 6 metres away, his room is big enough to sit further away, not sure about the upper bass, compression coupled,conventional driver I believe, I can ask , when a customer buys the Gamma or any Cessaro speaker, Raplh sets up the system personally, Gamma's can take three or four days to install,measurement and by ear, each horn can be adjusted for rake and angle.  I am not sure there is a US distributor as yet, I would value your opinion if you do get the opportunity to listen to the Gamma ,yours sincerely,Keith.
05-26-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 37
Post ID: 4459
Reply to: 4457
The Cessaro Gamma's tone.

Very nice, Keith, thanks. The most interesting would be to access the “Absolute Tone” capacity of the Gamma. Frankly I feel that with TADs it should not be very too advanced as they are at BMS/TOA domain, only with a little TAD syntactic twist. Even the 2440/375 have more interesting “Absolute Tone”…. I am not well familiar with GOTO (I heard only two installations with then but never owned them) but what I cat feel from my accidental and generally empirical evidences suggest that GOTO have to be very sterile in term of “Absolute Tone” with TAD being on the simulated side of the GOTO’ sterile.

With horns everything is very easy: do not make stupid mistakes and everything will work fine. I do not see any obvious mistakes in Gamma and it is probably the only horn speakers about which I might say it. That brings us back to let the acoustic system to sound as good as the drivers are. Sure the Gamma is a series mass-market model but still I have not mass-market interests…

Unfortunately it is imposable to judge tonal capacity of speakers without relative terms. I generally religiously against comparing of audio ands I feel that only the Morons do it but I know that the nobility of tone is a very different category… and there is no other ways to learn it besides to be exposed to better “Absolute Tone”. The experience of the folks that deal with some of vintage drivers is a good illustration…

Your Raplh should know what I am taking about but I do not know if he knows that it is possible to modulate acoustically the more enhanced “Absolute Tone”. Pitch to him my experience with Injection Channel. Perhaps he or someone else would find better solution for the concept or friendlier implementation… Frankly, if I designed the Macondo from scratch now, after knowing about the Injection Channels what I know now, then I might make some thing slightly differently.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-27-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-16-2007

Post #: 38
Post ID: 4464
Reply to: 4459
Cessaro's and the absolute tone
Romy Hi, I have heard TAD drivers in several systems, and they  have all quite different, depending obviously on configuration and implementation , everyone is different and have different 'ears' .If a pair of Gamma's finds their way to the US I will let you know or if you find yourself in Frankfurt! Take care of yourself, regards Keith.
07-09-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 4718
Reply to: 3257
Cessaro begins to spread…. will US come next?

It looks like Cessaro horns begin to spread this distribution. According to the messages on their blog the Hong Kong shop got Cessaro Alpha. Well, I care less about the Alphas, they are similar to the Avantgarde’s Uno/Duo should be very problematic. However, it is a good sign thet the Cessaro feels that they are ready to go public, outside of their “fatherlend”. I hope another 2-3 years and some kind of distributor at US East Cost will have the full set of Cessaro Gammas in their show room. It might be worth a trip… Or being me: perhaps I need to live in illusions and to avoid a disappointment of facing of reality…  :-)

Anyhow, here are the blog posts from Hong Kong

http://www.audioexotics.hk/forum.php?cat=4&show=0&id=1837&fshow=0

http://www.audioexotics.hk/forum.php?cat=4&show=0&id=1782&fshow=0

http://www.audioexotics.hk/forum.php?cat=4&show=0&id=1791&fshow=0

I wonder, 8 years ago Jim Smith created some momentum with Avantgardes, making some good horn’s noise and (I hope) good money on it. With all Avantgarde’s problems the Trios were a good attempt to inject some “hornynenss” into the mind of US audio public. (Despite that I heard only 2 more or less interestingly performing Trios installations). Since then, Jim Smith retired from Avantgardes and the company went to the deserving dark shadow… The other existing commercial horns projects available in US unfortunately are ether targeted for audio bottom-eaters, or just very crappy horns, or have no access to the high-demanding customers.

So, I it will be interesting to see if a $150K Cessaro Gammas will hit US’s Hi-Fi market. Sure, to do so, the Cessaro need to build up a large traffic of the cheap models Alpha and Betas. Then they will have the Gamma’s installation(s) available in US to “keep the Morons anxious”. I think it is a time for Cessaro to employ the advanced audio-marketing: “the Hairy Pearson”, “the Sunshine Framer” or any other audio-writing whores and to make them to blab a little about horns jeneraly, and the Cessaro’s Gammas ability to deliver to each suburban-boring audio-trash a personal touch of Patricia Barber…..

Hence, I hope the new folks emerge out there who would undertake the labor that Jim Smith did with Avantgardes. I hope with Cessaro it will be easier for that new person, as the Cessaro people (looks like) have more sensible regarding to what they deal with… BTW, it would be interesting to hear Jim Smith about the Cessaro Gammas perspectives in US….

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-09-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jim Smith
Atlanta, GA
Posts 11
Joined on 10-31-2006

Post #: 40
Post ID: 4719
Reply to: 4718
This one bears watching
I've been following this line (mostly the big one) with great interest since it was first mentioned.

It's definitely the most interesting high-efficiency horn line available, as far as I can see. 

I've been asked to look at distributing/marketing a few speaker lines to date by various manufacturers, but honestly speaking, nothing seemed really serious.

On the other hand, this is the first one that could be a contender...




Jim Smith
07-09-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 4720
Reply to: 4719
“Play it again, Sam”

 Jim Smith wrote:
I've been following this line (mostly the big one) with great interest since it was first mentioned.

It's definitely the most interesting high-efficiency horn line available, as far as I can see. 

I've been asked to look at distributing/marketing a few speaker lines to date by various manufacturers, but honestly speaking, nothing seemed really serious.

On the other hand, this is the first one that could be a contender...
I might presume that even if you found those speakers as “could be a contender” then you do feel that there is a market in US for the $150,000 horn-loaded loudspeakers.  It is very welcoming news by me.

Frankly speaking I would consider that the Cessaro Gammas would be much more interesting product if they where integrated with a especially made for them DSET, as if a person is willing to pay $150,000 for an acoustic system then there are no commercially available worthy sounding amplification to drive that acoustic system.  I mean, the 4 horn channels of Gammas should be driven via 4 channels of dedicated single ended amps which were specifically made for those speakers and feature line level crossovers inside the amplifiers. Then the user's responsibility would just be a selection of amplification for low-frequency sections, which would be mostly the subject of the given rooms. I personally think that if Cessaro where integrated with a properly sounding DSET (which would eliminate AMBIGUITY from typically crappy sounding single ended amplifiers) then the Gammas might be a very stable and very worthy “objectionable” commercial product.

Georgians, the Russian Georgians, say that it is impossible to step in the same river twice, however it think it's would be fascinating to see if you, Jim, would be able to pull it again. I think the Cessaro folks shell recognize you as a quite valuable asset to explore US market. If you ever bring the Gammas to CES then let me know, it's might be a good reason to humiliate myself in a plain for those ugly five hours…

BTW, you Jim made a huge mistake that you did not go when I called you for that late nigh session in 2002, when David Karmely turned the Vitavox CN191. It was accidentally phenomenal sound, the never happened since then, nether at CES nor with CN191.

Rgs, Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-09-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jim Smith
Atlanta, GA
Posts 11
Joined on 10-31-2006

Post #: 42
Post ID: 4721
Reply to: 4720
Mistake
As you may remember, it was about David at the time.

And you are correct, it was a mistake.

You said, "I think the Cessaro folks shell recognize you as a quite valuable asset to explore US market."

I'm curious as to what grounds you have for making such a statement. 

I've never had a single contact from them, tentative or otherwise.



Jim Smith
07-09-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 43
Post ID: 4722
Reply to: 4721
The hornier the merrier…

 Jim Smith wrote:
You said, "I think the Cessaro folks shell recognize you as a quite valuable asset to explore US market."

I'm curious as to what grounds you have for making such a statement. 

I've never had a single contact from them, tentative or otherwise.
Come on, Jim, are you forcing me to participate in public spreading compliments to you? I presume that Cessaro people in one way or other read this site and I do not mind to share what I think.

For any foreign manufacturer who might assess the pool of available marketing professionals as their candidates for prospective US distributor it would worth to learn the legacy of recent horns sale in United States. There are a great number of horns and “so-called horn” manufacturers in US but practically all of them are targeted for very different segment of prospective customers - the bottomeaters. Obviously the Cessaro Gammas, at least financially, are not willing to target the same customers as US's  "half-ass horns" manufacturers do. You know it, they know it and everyone knows it. There is no one in US today who manufacture REAL horns as well there are no one in US today who can sell REAL horns. The selling of the REAL horns is not a process of just selling them but rather a process of igniting a large marketing campaign, creation a sort of buying frenzy, which would force  the typical audio-Morons™ to revise their years-built generally negative prejudgment toward the horns topology. Jim, who is in contemporary US marketing are better positioned than you to do it? You did break some ice with Avantgarde, with great marketing and financial success, and you have all credibility in the world to continue your marketing horno-journey with more worthy products.  I do not know if Cessaro are more worthy products - I never heard them - but as I said in the beginning of this thread: according to what I know about horns  (and nowadays I am not a lightweight horn player),  the Gammas preliminary looks as the most promising commercial loudspeakers I have seen so far. If even to disregard the Cessaro’s bass channels then using their horns and applying some of my Injection Techniques I feel that Cessaro might perform very interesting. (Injection Techniques are available for licensing via donations toward the local shelters for the homeless Felines).

Saying all of it I pursue no other motivations than facilitating for people the opportunity to be exposed to more divert or perhaps better horns solutions. I would be glad if Cessaro will be able to “cook” something in US. At least then, I'll have a chance to listen the Gammas and will have opportunity to bitch about “other compromised horn design”.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-16-2007

Post #: 44
Post ID: 4723
Reply to: 4722
Cessaro best speaker in the world!
Jim Hi, my name is Keith Cooper, I own a pair of Alpha's  had them here in London for about a month now, they are superb ! I heard some Trio's which initially stirred my interest in horn loudspeakers, I know Ralph is looking for a US distributor, someone who will really get behind the product, why don't you drop him a line through the Cessaro website, or if you prefer you can give me a call anytime on 0044 208 815 5878, very best wishes,Keith.
http://www.cessaro-horn-acoustics.com/gamma.html
07-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 4724
Reply to: 4723
The Asian woman syndrome?

I remember I had an Asian girlfriend who was viciously trying to convince me that I was the best man in the world. She was 23 and I, listening her, was experiencing the incredible boredom...

Anyhow, Keith, although I am not a big fun of Alpha-type of speakers but I think there are some extra room for improvement in the Alphas that you might take under consideration.

Their web site claims Alpha is 98dB sensitive that is the sensitivity of that bass dipole horn. It means that the horns, the MF and the tweeters are padded ~10dB down… Well, you might tray to play with it. If I were you I would try to drive the Alpha’s MF and tweeters with own single stage tube amp of a couple watts. You might use my 6E5P tube or any similar tubes that have a few watts on plate, over 2-3V bias and has sound that persuades you.

With a single stage amp and a “low-turns fast-core” output transformer you should be able to make the Alpha to sound way more advanced then the do now. Do not forget also that when you do it you will have your LF amps freeing for pleasing the demands of your room, instead of pleasing the demands of the entire speaker. Consult with your Ralph, I’m sure he will assist you in that …. if you properly “sell” to him your objectives.

BTW, I have a question to ask: do the Cessaro use the stock TAD drivers, are they are modified in any ways, or perhaps the custom-made? (As the prices the they quote for this drivers are double and triple of the TAD retails prices)

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-16-2007

Post #: 46
Post ID: 4725
Reply to: 4724
No one ever told me that I was incredible!
Romy Hi, I would never presume to make such a claim, regarding active bass,I have heard quite a few systems now where the ( active )bass is very disjointed, Avantgardes for example, and the music just does not flow, but I will discuss your proposal with Ralph, very best wishes,Keith.
07-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 47
Post ID: 4727
Reply to: 4725
The disjointed Avantgarde’s bass and the cost.

 coops wrote:
I would never presume to make such a claim, regarding active bass,I have heard quite a few systems now where the ( active )bass is very disjointed, Avantgardes for example, and the music just does not flow, but I will discuss your proposal with Ralph
Keith,

I do not know what you mean by “active bass”. However, the disjointed bass that you noted in Avantgardes installations (I mean Trios) was not the intrinsic quality of the Avantgardes System but the moronity of the people who set up the given Avantgarde’s installations. (What I talks about Avantgardes I always imply Trios, not the sampler units that were not useable)

I would certainly not advocate the Avantgarde’s bass – it has a LOT of problems but the disjointed bass is purely the subject of a barbaric speaker setup. The Avantgardes were particularly lucky for incredible amount of the idiots owners – there are a LOT of Avantgarde installations out there and they sounded one nastier then another. I would not go into Avantgarde discussions in this thread but I would just will make a ridicules comment: one of the subjective reasons why Trios mostly never sound in the customer’s rooms as they could sound was the low price of those speakers.

The Trios were sold for $30K-$40K and many buyers paid even less. In the today stupid Hi-Fi world it is the price of the two-channel monitor (the Kharma craps and many others). So, my point is that for $40K no one will care how those speakers are used. Even if you pay twice or trice of it, then you are still out of knowledgeable support. Look for instance what Wilson does with Grand Slam and Alexandria. Theoretically each par of those speakers comes with in-house Wilson rep that set them up in customers listening rooms. However, even at Wilson’s price they can afford to send on the field juts a dealer, and I have seen some results of their “labor” – the over-pompous morons with ears, taste, training and capacity of the McDonalds employees…

So, here is where I see that Gammas’ price tag over $150K as a good sign. In fact I would like to see the price tag even more that should include power regeneration, amplification, acoustic system… that whole set, including an full-scale installation and “getting” a right sound. Did I say DPoLS? Surely the people who would try to get “it” should be fully pre-qualified, and I do not mean financially but rather in their audio development – they should be able to understand that Sound the might be build for them. Of course it is only in the case if the Cessaro could… In the end, the Avantgarde’s Trios were juts too unexpensive and too compromised design-wise to attack any serious sonic demands. Let see if the Cessaro will be able to push the barrier…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 48
Post ID: 4729
Reply to: 4722
Some prose about a $200K horns installation.

Well, here and there at my site I’m calling for rationalism in audio and suddenly I go enthusiastic regardless a perspectives of $200K Cessaro’s Gammas availability. Sounds hypocritical, doesn’t it? Well, not really.

I’m under no presumption that good Sound is available only at high expense.  However, we all know that there are people who voluntary willing to spend some dough, attacking the sound reproduction issues not with meaningful and targeted application of the audio solutions but rather throwing money in audio and “see what happen”. After all some of them are buying the Lamm ML3 for $126K, Kharma Exquisite for $160K, MBL amplifiers for $90K, the Wavac SH-833 for $350K or the Boulder‘s monoblocks for $126. I see no problems that those expensive products exist, even some of then sonically should cost no more then $1000. What I am, as a horn devotee, is very welcoming is the fact of existing of the very expensive, perhaps the ridiculously expensive, properly made commercial horn system, and the Cessaro’s Gammas might be juts that commercial system.

I less care how much it cost but rather it is very interesting to see what kind “package” and what kind result is possible to obtain within this approach. I went within my own audio evolution across multiple stages that brought me to Injected Macondo – the configuration remarkably similar to Gammas, in fact at the level of proper horn implementation there are no ambiguity and there are the only few ways (or the one way) to do the things “right”. So, it looks, at least very superficially, that Gammas is noble endeavor in the commercial attempt to show off “what horns could do”. This is why I am very welcoming them.

I wish they rent some warehouse in East Cost’s tri-state area and facilitate demonstration session, charging the admission fees and educating the Morons how horn might sound if then made properly. Sure, I hardly feel that Cessaro’s Gammas would be able to deliver some the satellites and overall performances of the “tailored systems” but as a cookie-cutter commercial product it should be an adventures journey…

Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-16-2007

Post #: 49
Post ID: 4730
Reply to: 4729
Cessaro the best commercial loudspeaker
Romy Hi, Ralph installs every pair of speakers ,I know that it can take a week or more to install and optimise the larger systems. There are plans for amplifcation , he is  working closely with Mr Park of Allnic Audio. Mr Park has some interesting designs, which are 'properly' executed , http://www.allnicaudio.com/E/e_pdt_pna.html 
I have one of his 1500 phono stages, it uses the LCR eq, valve regulated power supply it is very fine. I believe Ralph has very firm ideas on what constitutes a good sound, but is aware that every listener has his/her preferences. Yours sincerely,Keith.
07-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 50
Post ID: 4733
Reply to: 4730
Cessaro Gamma and DSETs?

Well, what is interesting in the subject: if the Cessaro guy will ever go for the DSET configuration in his commercial products? I am not certain but it is possible that in DSET configuration it might be possible to overcome the accused shortcomings of that TAD’s drivers, or any drivers at that matter.

What I am observing, is that while I drive a compression driver this at the dictated single-stage amplifier then the driver sound in a way different, not only “different” but better, and I do not mind to learn how to capitalize sonically upon those advances. I have no data or experience at this point how different topologies of single stages might interrupt with different driver types but I think it is a direction which deserved to be explored. It is highly possible that there is some combination of the tube, ways how tube was used, core of a transformer, winding techniques, loading, magnet of the driver, the cone’s materials and dumping methods that would be able to write up Sound in a new and objectionable way.

I went over that with two stages, limiting myself to 6C33C and I feel that I have found a very good result with my Milq. However, with Milq there were different objectives as I was thinking and experimenting in term of universal, full-range, not-dedicated amplifier. With a single stage and working against a very defined load and in a very narrow bandwidth it might be a hole new ballgame. I look forward to those experiments in near future in context of my installation, but I personally feel that it is the direction where are all serious installations based upon 110dB sensitivity should be targeting -  should be targeting if they would like to operate on the level of maximum “kink” available for a given topology. I think nothing, even hypothetically can beat single stage gain amplifier driving high sensitivity horn-loaded channel.

So, it would be interesting to see it is that Korean guy will come up with DSET amplification for Cessaro…

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Search.aspx?Phrase=DSET

Well, it is Cessaro’s thread, and I'm not suppose too spoil it with my DSET propaganda. However, there is the point that I would like to emphasize. When I was criticizing the Lamm ML3 I was not criticizing the amplifier itself but I was criticizing amplifier that cost $126,000 but at the same time does not deliver hypothetical maximum in quality available to receive from a given topology:

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=3492

Any full-range SET amplifier is bandwidth-compromised by default. It is simple to take a 300B and drive with a back-loaded single driver speaker, but for any person this audio imagination even slightly distinctive from at pterodactyl it would not be a solution. A full-range SET might not be a compromise just as an ordinary Hi-Fi amplifier but for the people who are willing to pay $126,000 (and presumably to get the consequential to their price-tag result) to drive their acoustics systems with at single (even a good SET) it would be a demonstration of blindness or foolishness. The very same might be applicable for Cessaro Gamma loudspeakers. If someone is willing to pay $200,000 and by means of this let presume to demand some “seriously pushy” Sound, then this person “should” drive individual Cessaro’s channels with individual dedicated single-ended amplifiers. For a personal that already spent $200,000 on loudspeakers to spend additional $4000 for a set of dedicated amplification it is not really as subject for consideration. Not to mention is that the Cessaro guy would have and he is disposal another expressive and very powerful tool how he can make Sound…


Here is how, I think, it should work in the case of the Cessaro 4-horns-chennals:

Rgs, the CaT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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