| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» How to USE “Resonating Oops” in loudspeakers (184 posts, 10 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 2 of 8 (184 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The elusive “absolute tone”...  Breeze......  Playback Listening  Forum     24  154748  07-28-2005
  »  New  The “Primary Frequencies”...  Melody range and the other octaves...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     5  49687  09-08-2005
  »  New  Don't position speakers but create Sound in room...  Listener position...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     1  28711  06-19-2006
  »  New  Great Cello Concertos..  János Starker passed away...  Musical Discussions  Forum     21  138562  07-04-2006
  »  New  SPUnisation of Macondo: how to catch own testicals...  Who? (shades of the old "musical" vs. "a...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     1  21479  02-01-2007
  »  New  Tannoy Red 1960s: some sober reality..  The Summer Monitors?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     10  108947  02-15-2007
  »  New  The inflatable speakers dumping and no only...  Labyrinth?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  48192  05-30-2007
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  No wonder...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     72  399672  07-29-2007
  »  New  Attention Sound Engineers (compression and loudness)..  Injection channel and Romy's rules...  Playback Listening  Forum     48  218498  09-09-2007
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  193771  10-28-2007
  »  New  Wilson Audio and the Moore's law..  Sneak peak of modesty...  Audio News Forum     19  53506  04-26-2009
  »  New  Other Ways of getting Special Tone from a loudspeaker...  Paul S....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  58011  11-27-2009
  »  New  How to play Bruckner Sound in Audio...  Being a pedagogical geniuses…...  Playback Listening  Forum     16  67372  06-15-2010
  »  New  An educational Eugenie’s installation...  Some more......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     15  55517  07-15-2010
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  12287  10-08-2010
03-06-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 3909
Reply to: 3865
The “Oops-resonator” is quite complex

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Have you considered replacing the cover on the tail of your Upper-Bass horn?

...With a large-diameter circular cover, made from a more resonant material (when I say large diameter, I mean quite a bit larger than the diameter of the rear chamber)?
Well, it is hard to explain but to use the “Oops” I the way how I would like is NOT suitable with back-chamber of a horn. BTW, for a proper “Oops-operation” the design should be relatively narrow bandwidth. The problem with using of the back-chamber’s lid is that it is very small. It is not the “resonant material” that I am after but the way how the “resonant material” is USED. This “usage” requires a LOT of volume (for instance 5 cub feet, depends form the “Oops-volume” that I need to produce). Obviously a 5 cub feet back chamber on the 100Hz horn will not be a back chamber anymore but rather an open air chamber and the excursion of the horn drive will not be able to pressure that large chamber. So, I do not see hot the back chamber might be used… unless it will be an…. active pressure magnifier. How different would it be from another defalcated channel loaded to the “Oops-resonator”? Anyhow, it becomes quite complex as I need to deal with unnecessary sound that the “Oops-resonator” creates in case a separate chamber would be used.…. Here is juts a conceptual idea how it "might" be done with the back chamber.

Oops-resonator.JPG

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-07-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 4370
Reply to: 3833
OK, it is official – I’m a genius!!!
Believe of not but after much of experiments I was able to find today a phenomenal “Oops” seething for my speakers. The configuration works very well and functionally it is very friendly and flexible. On the negative side it requires one more dedicated full-way Milq channel but I some idea ideas about it as well. I will not report for not the final outcome but today I god some VERY encouraging positive results, talking with my new “resonator channels” (yep, the sixth channel) the tone of Macondo way out there…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-09-2007 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 4373
Reply to: 4370
What the “genius” did: the Injection Channel

Well, I was thinking about that “Resonating Oops” for a while. I made quite a number of experiments. I some cases I was able to get interesting results but the “Resonating Oops” is very illusive. I do know that many readers of my site have wrong perception of that this “Resonating Oops” is. I understand it and perhaps the name “Resonating Oops” is not really accurate term. Yes, the “Resonating Oops” effect sounds like alien resonances, and yes - it colors sound. However, the major question “how” it colors and what happens with sound BESIDES THE COLORING.

Here is where we approach to the most complicated question in loudspeakers – are we planning to be right and happy and by means of what kind implementation? Some vintage drivers (not all but very few of then) in appropriate application do produce a glorious, phenomenally glorious, insultingly glorious tone; in fact it is not tone but rather aberrations of tone. Still, those tonal aberrations are so appealing to sonic connoisseurs that they live and die to implement those aberrations in their listening rooms. However, the problems with all that  vintage crap that the acoustic systems that have those superbly valuables aberrations (or something that I labeled as “Resonating Oops”) do not have accuracy, fidelity, range, low distortions and in 100% of all cases those “colorful acoustic systems” also poison sound, inflicting into sound their attractive aberration unintelligently, evenhandedly and unfairly. Let take for instance the Tannoy Reds in common original enclosure or Vitavox S2 with metals suspension + AK drivers.  They have all glory of superb tonal aberrations across the entire range, with very sweat and very human tone. However, deeply admiring this tone, I got sick form THAT sound very fast because those “Resonating Oops” EVER-PRESENT EVERYWHERE WITH IDENTICAL FORCE. Each single instrument by a student of Berkley School of Music sounds like Stradivarius and each single player play in the same “sticky” way. All orchestra have the same tone and all singers sound like Callas in the end of the 50s. It is astonishingly pleasant for the freak-shows but it is also very ANNOYING FOR SERIOUS MUSIC LISTENING.

So, after many experiments of trying to imitate this “Resonating Oops” and constant failures I asked myself why juts do not combine the fidelity, dynamic and presentation of Macondo with strategically injected “Resonating Oops”? I begin experimenting with the “Injection Channel”, using Red 10”, equalizing, positioning, aligning and tuning it by measurements and by ears. Eventually I’ve found a very interesting configuration where the Injection Channel is driven by a separate full range Milq and here the Injection Channel does work very-very wonderful.

I drive the Injection Channel at 8dB-10dB below Macondo, flat from 10K down to ~125Hz. The Injection Channel is in phase (acoustically) with Macondo and precisely time aligned (very auditable). Injection Channel does not REALLY affect the Macondo response (it affects within 1/4dB are very FEW frequencies). However, what it does with sound was EXACTLY what I was looking for years. It preserves all presentational Macondo’s benefits but at the same time it has a very-very insignificant touch of something that I call “the sound of faded flowers”. It very-very faintly adds to Macondo’s tone my beloved perfume of spooled see weed mixed with aroma of fine English tea. It looks like a decoration for Verdi opera lit by light with very mildly reduced color temperate, making it to “sound” like a summer light at 3.30PM, instead of the summer light 1PM or 6PM… It is extremely pleasant effect but there is even something more….

I have a simple attenuator at the Injection Channel’s input and I might vary tha output of the Injection Channel from minus 6dB (more it sounds too much “yellow” and screws up imaging to much) to minis whatever unauditable It is a powerful tool as well as VERY useful.

At the first day what I set everything up and calibrated the WHRB broadcasted the Du Pre orgy. It was such a fun to play with Injection Channel and setting the desirable effect depends of the recordings and the orchestras … I was great… Today I played a lot of Buckner – Celibidache, Hausegger… It was not a good idea to play the Buckner 7th on May 9 but what can I do – I love the music. Besides, I hardly feel that any composer more benefited from the Injection Channel then Buckner with his “accordion sound”. The Injection Channel demonstrated itself superbly effectible and it is here to stay.

Because my need of another full range Milq for the Injection Channel I made some alternation of my plans for 5 channels single-stage Melquiades. I decided to convert my current 3 channels Super Milq into 6 channels super Melq (+3 single-stages). I do have a clear idea how it might be done and it will be relatively simple to accomplish (Sp, I will not build the amps into the Macondo frame). I will post the information about the Super Melquiades modification is the appropriate thread.

Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 4374
Reply to: 4373
A “First Crack” enclosure?
I have to tell you that I would go little obnoxious with my ides of the “Injection Channel” and if I have a change then I would drop the resonant frequency of the box with the Reds. I do not what to commit myself with this project but if someone locally would build for mea very simple pair of new boxes. 4 times larger that what I use now then it would be interesting. I have quite clear picture what the Injection Channel enclosure should be. The requirement would look ridicules for any speaker builder but it is exactly what I would consider worth to try – I call it the “First Crack” enclosure. Do anyone know any cabinet builders in New England who would do a set of VERY simple, very light and very inexpensive boxes?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 30
Post ID: 4376
Reply to: 4373
Understanding the Genius
Very interesting...

So if I understand correctly, the "Injection Channel" consists of a pair of Tannoy Reds, used as direct radiators, in sealed enclosures, which are intentionally "live", meaning, optimized to resonate according to your desire.

Yes?

And now can you tell us how you manage to get so much done so quickly?

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
05-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 4377
Reply to: 4376
The Injection Channel - very simple.

Yes, the "Injection Channel" consists of a pair of Tannoy Reds, used as direct radiators, in sealed enclosures. I would not say that they overly specifically optimized. I did many optimizations equalizing them, filtering them but I never was able to get the proper Injection effect. Eventually I tried something very simple – to let it run as is but to attenuate them at 2- 2.5 times. This gave a very positive effect and then the main problem is left - the positing. Since the "Injection Channel" runs full range with the Reds tweeter outputs plenty at 10K there is no space to put it. With near 30Hz resonance frequency the box should be relatively large so the only way where I can put it in Macondo would be right or left from the tweeter. However, with this position imaging go severally distorted eave with Reds run at minus 9dB.

Last Sunday I put the box with read above the Macondo frame and it was positively different. The box with Reds now at the very same vertical line with all other Macondo drivers and the Red’s bass and Red’s MF shape a very tall (equal the height of the room) line array. To my big surprise, THE PROPERLY DIALED BY LOUDNESS the Injection Channel  has very-very little affect on imaging and practically do not shift presentation vertically. So, I low-passed the Reds at 8 K and it looks slightly better (not perfect), allowing to add 1dB to the Reds output.

I did not finish with the experiments yet but the general result is extremely positive and it accomplished by surprisingly little means… My ultimate objective would be to run the Injection Channel enjoying it’s all benefits but at the same time having absolutely no negative consequences to the rest of sonic presentation. I do not think it would be difficult….

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,144
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 32
Post ID: 4379
Reply to: 4377
Do benefits vary according to scale?
Very interesting.  I tried something similar years ago but was foiled by inumber of problems, including the fact that I was trying to drive it all with a single stereo SS amp.  I just could not get anything consistent, and in my case any and all shifts in position, mine or the added speakers', changed things so radically that I quickly became discouraged and abandoned the project.

Good to hear you have found a sweet spot for your "oops" speakers.  That has to be huge.

But my question regards musical scale.  Do you find equal benefits from the same oops levels (and/or placement) with all types of music at all listening levels?

Not to lump you in with them in any way, but you may have heard for yourself that the Cogent system either includes or allows a lot of resonance, which I thought better suited large scale works than smaller and/or lighter fare, and this was +/- the case with my own limited, unsuccessful experiments, as well.

Do you find it desireable to manipulate the "oops" in any way on a case-by-case basis?  If so, how do you do this?

Best regards,
Paul S
05-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 4380
Reply to: 4379
The flexible Injection Channel

 Paul S wrote:
Do you find equal benefits from the same oops levels (and/or placement) with all types of music at all listening levels?

I did not detect any fluctuation my “oops” desire with listening levels. The Injection Channel is driven from the same preamps and it’s level is identical for all volumes. I did detect that my desire of the “oops” higher with larger symphonic music and lower with vocal and chamber. Probably within 1.-1.5dB of the Injection Channel’s volume…

 Paul S wrote:
Not to lump you in with them in any way, but you may have heard for yourself that the Cogent system either includes or allows a lot of resonance, which I thought better suited large scale works than smaller and/or lighter fare, and this was +/- the case with my own limited, unsuccessful experiments, as well.

I did not see among what Cogent do anything resembling to intentional dealing with resonances

 Paul S wrote:
Do you find it desireable to manipulate the "oops" in any way on a case-by-case basis? 

Yes, I do. Deferent recordings react differently to the output of the Injection Channel and generally I wary it from minus 8dB to minus 12dB

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stringreen
New York, United States
Posts 16
Joined on 03-23-2007

Post #: 34
Post ID: 4381
Reply to: 3845
Secondary Resonances
Yes..Composers are very aware of secondary resonances...that's one reason why so many violin pieces (concertos, etc.) are in D.  The tonic is an open string, the dominant is an open string, the Vof V is an open string, and the subdominant is an open string - all vibrate sympathetically which makes the sound of the instrument much grander, much stonger, much more interesting.  The same piece transposed to D# or Db would sound dead in comparison.
05-12-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 4382
Reply to: 4373
Injection Channel – some tails for followers.

Interning that the strings and are the primary beneficiaries of the “Injection channel” effect. It would be hard to explain to people who never were not in my room what the effect is but I would try. (Yoshi you have to visit me again and what I tried to prove you with Janos Starker I can do again with Macondo)

OK, readers let tell stories. Pretend you used a well performing playback, loaded the JBL/Large-Altec MF drivers. Everything is great but you feel that when strings go soft and when the recording is too up closed then stings are loosing transients and bow sonically almost slip across the strings without creation of those zillion bubble within sound. Yes, with audacious play and a bold instrument recorded up-close (Anne Sophie Mutter’s for instance) a JBLed/Alteced playback could crate some kind of imitation of the “string” but as soon a volume goes down, or some ambiance in the recording delude the “strings immediacy” then it requires a lot of imagination to feel that what is being played have any remote reflection of stings Sound.

Well, you are suffering for a while, unloading the anode of your SETs and bitching that you lost harmonics when you did it and then, reading my site you decided to invest a little in my audio blabbering – you buy the Vitavox S2 driver instead of JBL/Altec or …. instead of anything else compression… Now you are in a totally different ball game as the properly used S2 has that “edge” that you so need but at the same time while doing the “edge” the driver has a perfect harmonic integrity and hold the “tone”. However, since you are an audio psycho and you need constantly increase the dose of audio heroine you soon begin to ask yourself: how can I get even more that nerves scratching “edge”.  You want more “sonic ecstasy” but you are not wiling to sacrifice anything among you already got. You want to take the “edge” even further but you do not what any sharpness or roughness.  You want “it” to be very smooth, very airy but at the same time you what under the hood of that airiness beating a hart of “airy anxiety”. You want “space” itself to be an expressive tool and you want not just recognize violas as something “between second violin and cello section” but rather you want to do what you do at concert - to LOOK at a given player and while you do it to be able in your listening concentration to feel sound of the given player within of the entire section. You learn from the 78s. You listen the 78s and learning in how it should be. (I do not know how you but I might listen THIS SOUND (and THAT play!!!!) from 78s for a whole day in a loop … Courtesy to Andy Rose)

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Audio_Files/Debussy_Jeux_Santa_Cecilia_Sabata.mp3

So, you would like to push slightly more, why not? It has nothing to do with music; it is pure audio, the “abstract audio” as I like to call it…

So, how can we get more of THAT “edge”? How can we get the “edge” without loosing “tone” and with breaking connectivness between to notes and converting Sound into a stream of the isolated Booleans? Sure the better drivers would be the answer. Please name them to me, I always am looking…

Well, here is where the injection channel might be as answer. You have a playback that care the basics of the presentation - tone, dynamics, articulation, phonetics and lexicon of musicality and then have a little poison brash with witch you retouch Sound in a way your musical and audio intelligence suggests you to. You do not EQ sound or misbalance it in anyway you juts strategically inject purely ACOUSTICALLY toxic and venomous touch from your Injection Channel into a proper sound of your listening room. I like this direction and so far I am encouraged with the result. Do not take me wrong: it is not problem-free and it requires demonstrating to yourself some taste and some self-discipline – well perhaps it is true with any drug, not only with Sound….

However, I can testify that a general experience with my Injection Channel - properly arranged, correctly dialed-in and with correctly chose type (crucially important) of venom, is more interesting then without Injection Channel. Isn’t it what the advanced audio and evolved music reproduction techniques should be all about?

Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-12-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,144
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 36
Post ID: 4384
Reply to: 4382
Oops enclosure vs. Fs, etc.
You have mentioned that you want a much larger enclosure for your oops unitSleep.  I was then wondering if you aim to merely broaden and/or lower resonant response or if you planned to in some way tailor resonance as it relates to Fs.  Then I thought about the "nearly sealed" enclosure that can be tuned by stuffing or otherwise variably blocking its +/- port, which is what Tommy Horning does with his $$$$$$ units.  Because you have described the injection as "toxic", like that little dash of arsenic that keeps one sharp,  perhaps a vari-port is an option in this unusual and isolated "toxic" case?

Best regards,
Paul S
05-12-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 37
Post ID: 4385
Reply to: 4384
Injection Channel response vs. Main Speaker...
 Paul S wrote:
You have mentioned that you want a much larger enclosure for your oops unitSleep.  I was then wondering if you aim to merely broaden and/or lower resonant response or if you planned to in some way tailor resonance as it relates to Fs.  Then I thought about the "nearly sealed" enclosure that can be tuned by stuffing or otherwise variably blocking its +/- port, which is what Tommy Horning does with his $$$$$$ units.  Because you have described the injection as "toxic", like that little dash of arsenic that keeps one sharp,  perhaps a vari-port is an option in this unusual and isolated "toxic" case?
Hm, I do not know yet but I would like to explore this opportunity. The Reds 10” have resonance somewhere around 27Hz and my drivers can handle slightly more power then the regular Reds. So, I am planning to put them in 6-7 cub feet box. The will not be too much unsuspended because I drive them very softly, so, it will be almost an infinite baffle solution. I do not know if I will be using that bass - I always will be able to kill it if I do not need it… BTW, below are  (1) the Macondo's response with the Injection Channel and (2) the response of my current “Injection Channel” itself.





"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-12-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,144
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 38
Post ID: 4386
Reply to: 4385
Why am I not surprised?
Well, it looks like you've somehow managed to just drop this "oops" box of yours in there and very neatly offset some main speaker small peaks and valleys, which is VERY interesting, if not the point...

But my guess is that you would have to go way over to the dark side to get anything significant from the Red below 100Hz, ie, the "B" word (boost), IF more "oops" LF is desirable.

My own experiments with BR port variations indicate that a LOT depends on the box itself, no surprise there.  If less-than-rock-stable, the skin itself tends to resonate, as everyone knows, but the surprise for me came when my "crappy box" resonances went up and down in pitch, complexity and volume just with port tuning.  I started with the typical rookie bid to get all LF I could, and just at or below the point of lost reason the cabinet sounds just took off, and they got very "interesting", even though this was not what I was after at the time.  I was using a 15" concentric, I don't remember which one right now, but I started off trying to A/B it with my VOTTs and wound up running everything at once, much to my wife's consternation.  Room modes were HUGE in my case, in fact that's mostly why I gave up. Oddly enough, however, the "injection" changed and/or smoothed out some primary LF modes, and it was "up the scale" that I ran into more serious problems.  I only had so much latitude with room treatment at the time.

Anyway, since this thread is already "toxic" I will stop beating around the bush and just toss it out there:  Equalizer...

I add as I run for cover:  Narrow Band Equalizer...

Best regards,
Paul S

 
05-12-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 4387
Reply to: 4386
Injection Chanel is not food, it is spice...

 Paul S wrote:
Well, it looks like you've somehow managed to just drop this "oops" box of yours in there and very neatly offset some main speaker small peaks and valleys, which is VERY interesting, if not the point... 

Not really, the response of Macondo itself and the Injected Macondo are virtually identical. Be advised that that way how I listen my playback the injection channel even 3dB less then at the graph above.

 Paul S wrote:
But my guess is that you would have to go way over to the dark side to get anything significant from the Red below 100Hz, ie, the "B" word (boost), IF more "oops" LF is desirable.

I do not know, and I do not think you know. However, I know how 1o” Reds sound in 1.5 cub feet and in 6 cub feet (I have both), so I know what I will get.

 Paul S wrote:
My own experiments with BR port variations indicate that a LOT depends on the box itself, no surprise there.  If less-than-rock-stable, the skin itself tends to resonate, as everyone knows, but the surprise for me came when my "crappy box" resonances went up and down in pitch, complexity and volume just with port tuning.  I started with the typical rookie bid to get all LF I could, and just at or below the point of lost reason the cabinet sounds just took off, and they got very "interesting", even though this was not what I was after at the time.  I was using a 15" concentric, I don't remember which one right now, but I started off trying to A/B it with my VOTTs and wound up running everything at once, much to my wife's consternation.  Room modes were HUGE in my case, in fact that's mostly why I gave up. Oddly enough, however, the "injection" changed and/or smoothed out some primary LF modes, and it was "up the scale" that I ran into more serious problems.  I only had so much latitude with room treatment at the time.

Pail, it all might be OK for a normal operation but it is absolutely not applicable for Injection Chanel. You think that the Injection Chanel should have some kind of balanced sound but it is mistake. The Injection Chanel is a lemon - it added some taste and flavor to the whole salad but it is not meant to be eaten itself.

 Paul S wrote:
Anyway, since this thread is already "toxic" I will stop beating around the bush and just toss it out there:  Equalizer... I add as I run for cover:  Narrow Band Equalizer...

Perhaps, but I do not see need to use it at this point. Also, not with the dual concentric the Injection Chanel is in phase across the whole range. How it will be after EQ… go figure. Anyhow, I do not know what which purpose I would use EQ…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-12-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,144
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 40
Post ID: 4388
Reply to: 4387
Not suggesting you (or anyone) use EQ to "balance" frequency response.
Romy, I do get that your objective in this case is not a "flat" response, and that is certainly not what I am talking about here, apart from offhand mention that you - oddly-enough - have a very balanced chart with the "oops" in.  Actually, I was just thinking of a possible way to get the "oops" sound you do want when you want it, and EQ came to mind.  In this case I would suppose you would still basically rely on the "native" resonance that has worked so well already, but just EQ/tailor/tweak (zest) it to taste.

I mentioned the LF smoothing effect only as an illustration of the sorts and range of changes I was getting with added "mis-matched" channels, not as a template.

Who knows how EQ would affect your sound, indeed?  You certainly don't see me using it (OK, maybe a little...)...

But, like you said, the sound you want in this case is not the same as you'd want from your main channels in the first place.

Just an idle thought.

Easy for me to say...

Best regards,
Paul
05-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 4448
Reply to: 4382
OK, I am getting somewhere.

I made the move toward to what I think might be done with Injection Channel for my Macondo. In the picture below is a new home for the 10-incher Red. The box is done interestingly. The front baffle is 1” MDF all the rest is 3/4n if a regular cheap plywood. The box is 33” high, the front baffle is 14” and the back is 8”. I did it sloped to reduce the reflections in the box and to make it look and feel like the … horn. It is not painted yet  and not intalled proporly yet but it does look above the Macondo as it was born there- very non-abusive. The box is very “live”. It has a very light rib at the middle. I plan to tune it more precisely with injectable extra bracing and dumping as I go along… and …if I find it necessary.

I do not how it sound yet and I feel that it will take some time to learn how to make it to sound correct (remembering that it is not the normal channel but the Injection Channel), however now I have some tools to play with…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-26-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 4458
Reply to: 4448
Injection Channel project is done.
Ok, the Injection Channel project is over. I dumped the boxes not heavily and very conventionally, painted them, installed the drivers and crossovers. Sure, before I put the injection channels into the Macondo frame I flipped them upside down and tried to listen the boxes with Reds full range on my floor. They sounded like typical Reds. I did not detect a lot of extra quality coming form the larger box - a little more bass but generally it is the very same sound. The sound of box, despite that it is relatively light is not auditable. As with any 10” Reds the power handling is low. As with most of the Tannoys the speaker fall apart if they play something more complex then a singer with 2 instilments. The sound is “Red” and strategically colored.

Still, as Injection Channel they should be very much OK… The idea to locate the driver at the bottom of the box was a good idea…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-26-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 43
Post ID: 4460
Reply to: 4458
The "Macondo Ultimate" MK-XXVII, Revision 432…
In my post to Keith I said: “if I designed the Macondo from scratch now, after knowing about the Injection Channels what I know now, then I might make some thing slightly differently”. Below is my deign idea how I would make the Macondo’s Frame imbedding the Injection Channels closer to MF channel. Although I am not planning to go for this implementation but I presume this destine as the the most interesting Macondo design.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-26-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 44
Post ID: 4461
Reply to: 4460
Injection Alignment
Romy,

I'm very pleased to learn that you've got your Injection Channel done.

I assume the above illustration is not indicative of the way you have the Tannoy Red aligned with regard to the other drivers, as it appears to be sitting out in front of them (?)

I'm very much looking forward to following your continued research on the single stage Melqs.

jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
05-27-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 4465
Reply to: 4461
It should be time aligned with religious prejudges.
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Romy,

I'm very pleased to learn that you've got your Injection Channel done.

I assume the above illustration is not indicative of the way you have the Tannoy Red aligned with regard to the other drivers, as it appears to be sitting out in front of them (?)

I'm very much looking forward to following your continued research on the single stage Melqs.

jd*

Sure it dose not sit in from of them. The Injection Channel is a white bandwidth full-range channel and it should be meticulously and painstakingly time aligned, without it all bets are off. It absolutely ruins all Sound if it is out of time alignment. In the photograph about the wooden box just placed above to measure up. When the Injection Channel was done then the channel was aligned with RTA. Still do not forget that in dual concentric Reds the compression driver sits well behind the woofer and the woofer delayed eclectically….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-27-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 4472
Reply to: 4460
The Injection Channel idea perfect, isn’t it?

Well, I would like do not mislead myself and others: the Injection Channel idea is NOT perfect and in a way a half-ass solution. It is effective. If the right “coloration driver” is found and properly implemented/mixed then the Injection idea might be superbly beneficial but… the Injection does inflict also some harm, amplitude of which might wary. In a way the Injection Channel is a semi-foolish attempt to fix the situation since we have no pool of seriously sounding drivers, particularly the horn drivers. The tone of the driver is everything in loudspeaker (is to look ONLY at the tonal dimension). It is like a needle in analog. People who do analog know that if a cartridge is dull in some aspect then no mater what you do you never make the Sound coming from this cartridge better. The same with horn drivers…. We all use crap drivers that were this made hundreds years back where definition of good sound was AM radio broadcasts or the today’s high power pro drivers that were made buy deaf and ignorant people…

Could the Injection Channel with a properly selected and mixed “colorizing driver” be a solution? Yes, it can but only at the level of self-entertainment end proving the concept. For the serious results however, the results targeted to the highest level of objectives, I do not think that it would be place for any Injection Channels but insisted the properly/seriously sounding but none-existing drivers (that have all tone already “Injected”) should be used.

Unfortunately no one cares about the seriously sounding drivers for horns. I understand why - there are no demands…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-27-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 47
Post ID: 4473
Reply to: 4461
The Injection Channel: post factum
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
I assume the above illustration is not indicative of the way you have the Tannoy Red aligned with regard to the other drivers...
Here is the actual picture of the Injection Channel, installed and time aligned.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-27-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,144
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 48
Post ID: 4476
Reply to: 4472
A very thoughtful exposition, Romy
Since I have struggled with my own +/- insurmountable problems with Lowthers, OB, BR, etc., ad nauseum, I can certainly relate generically to what you have just said about horn drivers in this injection thread.

Yet this may be the only time I have heard from a fully-invested horn advocate that there are or might be problems with respect to horn tonality.  Did I miss something, or other do other hornys just not hear the problems (a-e-i-o-u...)?

I would have to say you have also painted some pretty clear pictures of some problems one faces with OB and BR; but I freely admit these problems, and I have read your "injection" thread with selfish interest, specifically as it might relate to mitigating (vs correcting) certain problems I deal with.

In any case, no need to throw the baby out with the bath water.  I still think your injection channel is ingenious, at least as an idea, and there is a quasi-related, quasi-scientific treatis I am struggling to remember and that I will cite if/when I remember it (just as a point of interest, of course).

Meanwhile, maybe it's time to start laying out what we most want/expect from our drivers?  I always though hornys were all about jump, and screw the rest.

In my case, pitch, timbre, weight and scale have been my focus for the last few years, and oddly enough I wound up working with Lowther DX-4s vs horns I have tried, engendering a whole new set of compromises.  While I have had some success along the way, I think I am ready to discuss what is good and bad with some objectivity.

To what extent can we figure to be on the same page with respect to desired end results?  More than a little, I'll wager.

Are we close enough to anything to begin reverse engineering?

If it can't happen here, it probably won't happen...

Best regards,
Paul S


05-28-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 49
Post ID: 4477
Reply to: 4461
"it appears to be sitting out in front of them"...
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
I assume the above illustration is not indicative of the way you have the Tannoy Red aligned with regard to the other drivers, as it appears to be sitting out in front of them (?)




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-31-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 50
Post ID: 4521
Reply to: 4448
After all I was right all along, ... almost....

I always say do not stress them they do not like it and I always hate third bass. The 10” are particularly are fragile with a power handling of a few watts. It is applicable pretty much to any lover MF driver that pushed to work with the “open bottom”. It is applicable to any vintage driver, and in my given case I was talking about the Tannoy Red 10”. As you know with my new unnecessary gluttonously-large box for my Injection Channel I got too much bass and not the regular but the typical Tannoy-type bass. Today I desided to high-pass the channel. I put a pair of actively biased electrolytic caps that made roughly 50Hz 6dB filter and listened it. Then running the crossover point up and down, I ended up with somewhere 110Hz.

Wow, suddenly the Tannoy-type bass is evaporated and was replaced with VERY high quality upperbass, I mean the superb upper bass! Of course it is not the normally well-accepted full balanced sound and the complete channel itself do not sound pleasant but if to do the “targeted listening” and to pay attention only at what is important for the given channel then it was very much what is necessary and the Injection Channel in context of Macondo now does excellent (after realignment).  My move to larger box was no a smart move but I think if I did not do it then I would allays would like to try it.

Now I need to decide if to repackage the Reds into some kind of miniature 0.5 cub feet box for my Injection Channel or to keep it “as is”, using it high passed.

Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 2 of 8 (184 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The elusive “absolute tone”...  Breeze......  Playback Listening  Forum     24  154748  07-28-2005
  »  New  The “Primary Frequencies”...  Melody range and the other octaves...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     5  49687  09-08-2005
  »  New  Don't position speakers but create Sound in room...  Listener position...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     1  28711  06-19-2006
  »  New  Great Cello Concertos..  János Starker passed away...  Musical Discussions  Forum     21  138562  07-04-2006
  »  New  SPUnisation of Macondo: how to catch own testicals...  Who? (shades of the old "musical" vs. "a...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     1  21479  02-01-2007
  »  New  Tannoy Red 1960s: some sober reality..  The Summer Monitors?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     10  108947  02-15-2007
  »  New  The inflatable speakers dumping and no only...  Labyrinth?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  48192  05-30-2007
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  No wonder...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     72  399672  07-29-2007
  »  New  Attention Sound Engineers (compression and loudness)..  Injection channel and Romy's rules...  Playback Listening  Forum     48  218498  09-09-2007
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  193771  10-28-2007
  »  New  Wilson Audio and the Moore's law..  Sneak peak of modesty...  Audio News Forum     19  53506  04-26-2009
  »  New  Other Ways of getting Special Tone from a loudspeaker...  Paul S....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  58011  11-27-2009
  »  New  How to play Bruckner Sound in Audio...  Being a pedagogical geniuses…...  Playback Listening  Forum     16  67372  06-15-2010
  »  New  An educational Eugenie’s installation...  Some more......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     15  55517  07-15-2010
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  12287  10-08-2010
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts