| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Playback Listening » Audio critique – open your mind! (45 posts, 3 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 1 of 2 (45 items) Select Pages:  1 2 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Critique audio performance before acquire new element...  Critique audio performance before acquire new element....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     0  28435  12-31-2004
  »  New  Klangfilm: actual knowledge is better then fetish imagi..  Klangfilm Kl51...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  155570  03-15-2007
  »  New  The most appalling audio types...  The most appalling audio types: personally over-vested...  Audio Discussions  Forum     10  83312  06-15-2007
  »  New  Bookshelf Horns..  How the menacingly-empty idiots design audio....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     3  30759  03-17-2010
06-17-2006 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 2546
Reply to: 2546
Audio critique – open your mind!

This is the subject that keeps bothering me over the years and I have no idea why I never have written about it within my site. The subject of this article will be a completely irrational, located at the boundary of idiocy, behavioral pattern of the absolutely dominating majority of audio people: their incapacity to deal with critiques of audio that they own or they care about.

Really, try to meet any manufacturer and engage with him/her (let talk about him from now and on) in a conversation about the specific performance weaknesses of their audio. Try to visit a dealer or a distributor and point out the sonic absurdness of some decisions that he took in organization of his demonstration or to question performance of specific configuration. Try to visit a listening room of a private audio person and point out to him the very specific and very tangible unconstructive moments of sound reproduction of his system… In all those and many other cases you will face with open hostilely and with a situation when people feel severely personably insulted and behave as you hurt them. What the bunch of Morons!

That always puzzled me and frankly speaking turned me off a lot in my desire to socialize with audio community. How more idiotic a person should be that he accepts purely audio critiques as evidence of ANYTHING ELSE BESIDES JUTS AUDIO CRITIQUES! How fool people should be that they avoid using somebody else’s interpretations of audio efforts for MUTUAL EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES? Isn’t it the reasons why we demonstrate our playbacks to each other: to learn?

I’m seen it all. I have seen manufactures who scrammed to me that I’m idiot because I was no impressed with the sound that they did. I have seen privet parties who proudly invited me to audition their playback and who literally tossed me out of their homes, as soon I did not express enthusiasm about the Sound that I heard. I do not remember that I EVER expressed dissatisfaction with Sound without referring to the very specific and very EXPLICIT FACTS of my auditable experiences. I’m also always very open to negotiate and to discusses those facts or to correlate our observations about the moments that we liked or disliked. The reason for my willingness is because I use any my trips to listen somebody else’s systems, as well as visits of any person in my listening room for nothing else beside SELF EDUCATIONS.  However, the average audio people are not equipped to do use audio critiques for education. They use audio for ego boosting of what whatever else reasons… but only not for advancing of ourselves in audio understanding. That makes them very very boring…

Year after year I receive those idiotic phone calls form friends of mine: “Romy, I was in “X-city” and went to listening room of “Mr. Y”. The system performed very badly, with the following problems: A, B, C, D, E, F… Of course I did not tell him about it and said that it sounded Great” I always question this behavior: why do a person if he has a rational judgment should not share this judgment with another person who in fact DO EXPECT someone’s opinion? You do not say that somebody kids look ugly you juts point out the very specific, objective, mutually notable facts of sound reprodaction. It is it!!! Why you, the audio people, have built for yourself this completely idiotic communication protocol according to which you participate in mutual flattering of own stupid egos?  You, the audio people, for whatever damn reasons, project your personal attachment to whatever doing on in your listening rooms, isn’t it stupid? It would be fine if you demonstrate personal attachments to Results but unfortunately you demonstrate those attachments to Methods and to the empty Marketing Inflictions.

It is not secret that in some cases a playback system builder, designer or the owner has more evolved comprehending of the REASONS of cons or pros of his installation/components and can interpret them more deeply. But this is exactly what it is: get a different perspective on the subject (if criticizing person is wiling and capable (happen hardly ever) to demonstrate HIS REASONS) and expose the subject to the diversity of exposures. When I have audio people in my home I ALWAYS ask them what it wrong with Sound in my listening room. I might agree or disagree with the opinions. I might or might not know what made my visitor to feel good or bad and what made them disagree with my assessments. However, I find it always, ALWAYS (!!!)educational to hear people if they express their NATIVE PERCEPTION to what they feel. (Instead just hearing how they quote for me in my room the paragraphs from an audio reviews that they have read. Although I try to do bring Audio Morons ™ in my listening room but sometimes I let them to break through).

What the point of this article? The point is to suggest you, the audio freaks, to loose the fear of yourself and start to accept Sound in your listening rooms like nothing else then JUTS SOUND IN YOUR LISTENING ROOMS. I have great interest to audio people who NOT JUST DO AUDIO but have an INTEREST OF DOING AUDIO. I have great respect to manufactures (regardless the results they produces) who now juts support their status quo but wiling to see themselves in the EVERLASTING CONTINUATION OF AUDIO EDUCATION, who stays behind what they do USING THEIR ACCOMPLISHMENTS AND THE RESULTS AS A REFERENCES POINTS INSTEAD OF THEIR EGOS.

I always say that Audio is not a purpose but juts a tool. Unfortunately many audio Morons ™ use audio as a tool FOR WRONG PURPOSE. I was very far from suggesting that audio is a tool for improving sense of self, or patting own ego. I juts wish more Audio people able to discover that OTHER MEANING OF AUDIO PURPOSE… Perhaps then, criticizing other’s Audio efforts we would be able to find nobler objectives and might allow themselves to become more attentive listeners of each other… Just little bit more honesty and little bit less fear…

Amen!
Romy the Cat




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-20-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
behhl
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Posts 5
Joined on 03-30-2006

Post #: 2
Post ID: 2559
Reply to: 2546
The Reality of Ego Hobby
In my observation, Audio Hobbyist are in the majority, like other hobbyist - they have a strong identity with their gadgets, Whether this gadget is large or small like camera, car, boat, trading cards or amplifiers and speakers. It is not a matter of Morons ™ only in Audio, but most every hobby has it. The criticism of their Gadgets are taken as criticism of their self, ability etc etc.  They are not about Education but about Display.

Most have difficulty to keep themselves apart from their things: it is a very Zen concept to be able to, no?

In this, it is perhaps able to ask whether
what term as Audio Morons ™ listen to Music or to Sound. It is an interesting idea which in my preliminary thinking can be said to be such; that appreciation of 'Music'  (in this context) per se does not need sound (ala Beethoven), whereas Sound has a special primeval property of itself affecting the body/mind.

Perhaps the answer why Audio Morons
™ cannot take criticism of Gadgets is like a Gordian Knot?

regards
bhl

06-21-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Gregm
Greece
Posts 91
Joined on 02-16-2005

Post #: 3
Post ID: 2562
Reply to: 2546
Diplomacy in order to avoid an emotional dead-end
In fact, a battle of ego which leads nowhere rather than an educational exchange of views which leads somewhaere.
Very often a comment engenders an emotional reaction -- rather than a (rational) discussion.
The latter (discussion) could result in a useful exchange of views and benefit the owner of the system under discussion.

There is a second reason -- one I often experience. Many people of the moronic persuasion asking for opinion do NOT expect a real opinion; their equally moronic attendance also jsut gives a comment like "no musicality" or "throw it away -- not worth the money". While in some cases it may "not be worth the money" -- the system is already purchased & there may be room for some improvement.

A constructive approach would be, "I notice a, b, c, ... that can be improved. I suggest you try x,y,z.

BTW, has anyone else noticed how many nicely presented systems sound anaemic, lacking energy and/or have their presentation mixed up (I mean, like the cymbals being in front of the orchestra, in front of the soprano, etc)?
Or is it just me?
06-22-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jweiss
Posts 5
Joined on 01-10-2006

Post #: 4
Post ID: 2569
Reply to: 2546
How mind opening works.
Hi Romy,

As you sent me a link to this thread, I imagine you would like a response.

It seems to me that creating a useful thread on this subject on this website would require you talking about sound systems you have heard and liked, as opposed to the long list of things you despise which comprise a good deal of the territory here. It is true that audio is a disaster area, and you are a chronicler of its destitution. Personally, I enjoy your Don Quixote antics. But it would stretch the imagination that in all your travels and experiences, you have not heard good sound anywhere but your own home system, which is often the received impression. Perhaps you can share with us some of the high points of systems you have heard and liked in your peregrinations, both in small rooms and in large ones? Maybe you can even be specific in describing what you liked? As a newcomer here, perhaps I just missed your happy reviews, and only have read the sad ones. I would appreciate being pointed in the right direction as to how to locate your positive comments about anything in audio, minus of course what you yourself have built, bought or otherwise claimed as your own.

Having an idea of what you indeed liked, in contrast to what you hate, might give a better picture of what you are up to, no?

Jonathan
06-23-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 2573
Reply to: 2569
Sancho Panza of Las Vegas

 jweiss wrote:
As you sent me a link to this thread, I imagine you would like a response.

It seems to me that creating a useful thread on this subject on this website would require you talking about sound systems you have heard and liked, as opposed to the long list of things you despise which comprise a good deal of the territory here. It is true that audio is a disaster area, and you are a chronicler of its destitution. Personally, I enjoy your Don Quixote antics. But it would stretch the imagination that in all your travels and experiences, you have not heard good sound anywhere but your own home system, which is often the received impression. Perhaps you can share with us some of the high points of systems you have heard and liked in your peregrinations, both in small rooms and in large ones? Maybe you can even be specific in describing what you liked? As a newcomer here, perhaps I just missed your happy reviews, and only have read the sad ones. I would appreciate being pointed in the right direction as to how to locate your positive comments about anything in audio, minus of course what you yourself have built, bought or otherwise claimed as your own.

Having an idea of what you indeed liked, in contrast to what you hate, might give a better picture of what you are up to, no?
Jonathan,

I do not think you “got” the subject of this thread. It is not about what I have heard and what I might like. It is not about the sound in my room (that I admire much less then you might believe), your room or anybody else's rooms. What my proposed by you description of reportedly good sound would add to the fact of audio people’s disability to talk honesty and without egos about audio and about the actual results that they accomplish or experience? Once again it is not about “happy reviews” and not about me. It is more about us and, we everybody should look at ourselves and learn how our fears and ego effect our better judgments.

The CaT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-24-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 2577
Reply to: 2573
Re: you need to lose some weight
I think I get what you are saying. There have been many occasions where I've bitten my tongue when presented with someone's precious and expensive cacophony of noise. I often take a small pleasure in telling them that it's either incredible or unbelievable and let them take from that the meaning they want to. I haven't been dishonest and they are happy. People do invest a part of themselves in the choices they make about their clothes, their homes, their cars & their audio sytems. They shouldn't maybe but often they feel it's what defines them as a person.

Perhaps I should have been more honest with my views. However, we only live for 70-80 years. Some of us find that time more bearable if we don't antagonise everyone we meet. We use a carefully evolved technique. It's called politeness. I wouldn't tell my mother if I thought she was a little overweight. I wouldn't say 'you're fat, go on a diet' I'd tell her how well she was looking.

Perhaps audio hasn't evolved as far as it could have if everyone had been ruthlessly honest to everyone else, and I think it's healthy if there are a few very direct people around. But if everyone was like that (and perhaps less tolerant than they could be) we might all have killed each other by now and there would be little left in the way of civilisation to give birth to music and art etc.
06-24-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 2578
Reply to: 2577
Different question – different answers.

Guy,

I absolutely disagree and I think there is a huge difference between lettings your wife to know that skin in her neck remind you sesame chicken and letting a play director know that his new production stinks. Of course we moderate our behavior in order do not hurt (for instance I do not make public comment about private visits) but what kind damage might be involved if one person present his efforts and another person pass his observations on the RESULT of those efforts. Pretend that collect stamps (bear with me I know nothing about stamps) related to US constitution and after someone looked through your collection tell you that you have missed entire period from 1920 and your stamps from 19 century are Brooklyn made fake. Does it mean that it put you is a suicidal mode or it means that you god educated and your stamp-collecting skills go evolved? If you written a book and somebody, after reading it, inform you about the self-contradicting facts in this book, or about hideous language or about kitschy plot or about shallow developed characters then does it mean anything else beside that fact that a person invested his time into results of your labor and share with you’re his observations. What is the difference in audio? You spend day of you live in your listening rooms trying to make that cable elevator between your phonostage and cartridge to “sound better” and someone after listening your setup inform you that your cartridge loaded insultingly sharp or your loudspeakers have midrange driver that does not fire up. Does it mean that your ego hurt so hard hat you should put in your will a vendetta obliging you children to kill all me children? Doesn’t it mean that you should take advantage of learning something and do not waste your time in the unfruitful actions?

Do we toss the baby with water when we “take a small pleasure in telling them that it's either incredible or unbelievable and let them take from that the meaning they want to”. Does it deliver anything else besides diminishing expectations and create an opportunely for ignorant and devious idiots (means audio-dealers) to flourish their operations? In the end, dose it mean that after the visit you, despite that your phonocorrector that has no LF section of RIAA curve, should return back to playing with your cable elevator to “get more bass”? (Bear with me as well:  all audio examples are not fictional)

It is not about the “audio hasn't evolved as far as it could have if everyone had been ruthlessly honest to everyone else”. Audio has no own evolvement and evolvement of audio critique is a subject of individual consciousness. Are we looking forward to be “right” or “happy” in our marriage? Are we looking forward to be “right” or “happy” in our calculations of ballast for our yachts? I’m sure those two question would have very different answers.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-24-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 294
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 2579
Reply to: 2577
Re: you need to lose some weight
"There have been many occasions where I've bitten my tongue when presented with someone's precious and expensive cacophony of noise." Very funny!

I have made it a policy never, ever to critique anyone's system unless I have been presented with sufficient knowledge that I won't be hurting the guy's feelings. But he has to initiate that procedure.

The worst stuff I hear always involves digital edge. When such is present I find it difficult to continue, as nothing one can do equipment-wise will fix it -- unless one is carrying along new gear to insert. Nothing, except tweaking, anyway, and many 'philes are unable to accept that treating the disc may solve that edginess.

But when the source is clean, I can uncritically accept and enjoy the many variations in presentation that I encounter.

clark
06-24-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #: 9
Post ID: 2580
Reply to: 2578
Re: Different question – different answers.
 Romy the Cat wrote:

What is the difference in audio? You spend day of you live in your listening rooms trying to make that cable elevator between your phonostage and cartridge to “sound better” and someone after listening your setup inform you that your cartridge loaded insultingly sharp or your loudspeakers have midrange driver that does not fire up. Does it mean that your ego hurt so hard hat you should put in your will a vendetta obliging you children to kill all me children? Doesn’t it mean that you should take advantage of learning something and do not waste your time in the unfruitful actions?



In case of fake stamps or self-contradiction in a story, it is rather easy to point out how it is so by introducing an evidence.  In case of audio, usually there's only his system/result that is present.  When one points out what's wrong with the system/result, most likely the owner doesn't get what that criticism means until he actually listens to another system/result that doesn't have that particular problem.

Same thing with your website or your opinion.  If the reader has some experience and understanding of audio, he may realise it's not a bogus but a serious attempt to achieve a serious result, but unless he is already deep into a similar pass, it is almost impossible for him to realise what can be achieved without actually listening to your system/result. 

So unless you can actually show him a better result, your criticism is pretty much wasted.  I agree there are cases that their mind is so fixated on their own system/result, they won't accept any criticism even after being presented with a better system/result, but that's their own problem.

Yoshi
06-24-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 2581
Reply to: 2580
Re: friendly criticism.
I would, of course, be more forthright when discussing what I felt were the plus or minus points of a friends system. They would be familiar with the system I have, the sound I like etc. I would know that my comments would have no effect on our relationship. It's a different thing with strangers. They don't know what you like, what you consider to be correct or wrong and unless you can take them home and show them a different way of doing things there isn't much you can do (unless it is obvious that the speakers are wrongly positioned or the cartridge is misbehaving)
06-24-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 2584
Reply to: 2580
Different answers... by the asking different question

 yoshi wrote:

In case of fake stamps or self-contradiction in a story, it is rather easy to point out how it is so by introducing an evidence.  In case of audio, usually there's only his system/result that is present.  When one points out what's wrong with the system/result, most likely the owner doesn't get what that criticism means until he actually listens to another system/result that doesn't have that particular problem.

Same thing with your website or your opinion.  If the reader has some experience and understanding of audio, he may realise it's not a bogus but a serious attempt to achieve a serious result, but unless he is already deep into a similar pass, it is almost impossible for him to realise what can be achieved without actually listening to your system/result. 

So unless you can actually show him a better result, your criticism is pretty much wasted.  I agree there are cases that their mind is so fixated on their own system/result, they won't accept any criticism even after being presented with a better system/result, but that's their own problem.
Yoshi,

the criticism NEVER wasted as criticism is a tool for self-edification. Criticizing somebody’s playback, or trying to determine what was wrong with a playback or trying to provide any contractive advise upon somebody Sound is a HUGE source for self-education. I learned a LOT looking other playback and trying to realize what was wrong. Interesting that it is it is kind of irrelevant to me if I expressed my judgment to the system owner or not. I do prefer to express and then to collaborate together on the reasons of the problems and possible solution. Unfortunately it seldom happens as mostly the audio freaks after they heard the “expressed opinion” go fanatical and any constructivism go down to toilet. Ironically I cat testify that when the audio freaks did not behave like idiots but when we though together about sound then ALWAYS when I left the room the playback sounds better then before my visit. I would like do NOT bring this fact as my desire for self-admiration but rather as my evidence that the psychoticly-Moronick reaction of the Audio Morons to audio critique does herd them…

Also, I do not fell that “show him a better result” is only way to go. Unquestionably it is useful but Audio people have no place where they can learn about the boundaries of possible in sound reproduction. Dealer, show, demo rooms and the rest avenues do deliver very poor result, the local friend are frequently are not qualified and the internet people or reviewers are juts running their mouths with now ability to demonstrate any worthy results. So, I would not advocate the “seeing somewhere better result” but rather developing own objective evaluation methods, with referencing anybody’s achieved results.

Rgs,
Romy The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jweiss
Posts 5
Joined on 01-10-2006

Post #: 12
Post ID: 2588
Reply to: 2584
Ways of approaching....
Hi Romy,

Here is a hypothetical question. If someone sent you an email telling you, in quite a clear way, how you had made an enormous mistake in one of your audio projects, for example an exercise in modifying a speaker, detailing all the mistakes you had made in not correctly understanding the design of such a type of driver, how your misunderstanding led to wrong paths in modification, and so forth, I would imagine you would want to post that information in the relevant thread on that subject, so that everyone could learn from the process, and progress could be made? Is that the kind of thing you are talking about here?

Jonathan
06-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #: 13
Post ID: 2593
Reply to: 2588
Re: Ways of approaching....
 jweiss wrote:
Hi Romy,

Here is a hypothetical question. If someone sent you an email telling you, in quite a clear way, how you had made an enormous mistake in one of your audio projects, for example an exercise in modifying a speaker, detailing all the mistakes you had made in not correctly understanding the design of such a type of driver, how your misunderstanding led to wrong paths in modification, and so forth, I would imagine you would want to post that information in the relevant thread on that subject, so that everyone could learn from the process, and progress could be made? Is that the kind of thing you are talking about here?

Jonathan


In a way, I suppose yes, and if that hypothetical criticism is a valid one, I believe Romy will happilly share the discussion in here.  He's asking why audio people tend to take criticism so personally. 

I do hate cheap sarcasm, regardless of whatever the subject.  If that's the only thing you have, get lost.

Yoshi
06-26-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 2594
Reply to: 2593
Why do you think I use the “Presumption of Moroniy” in audio?

Yoshi,

I am not sure what you mean and I am not quite getting what Jonathan was wiling to express. To affirm my observation on the subject I would like to add my view that was shaped by my observations of numerous and numerous subjects in Audio.

It was unavoidable in my experience that any individual who took audio criticism personally were the people who did not take audio seriously. I NEVER have seen any person who had a natural interest in audio who was not wiling to collaborate on the criticism, look deeper into the reasoning or criticism or to express his outlook on the criticism’s subject.

Certainly I’m not saying that people obliged have in interest in audio but I am generally under impression that if people do thighs (as expansive and as time-consuming as audio) then they should have some sense of action instead of exercising own infatuation to moving audio components in space.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-28-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #: 15
Post ID: 2600
Reply to: 2546
Burn the church
This is how I took Jonathan's post.  He (Janathan) is mocking you (Romy) by presenting a hypothetical situation assuming your ego would be hurt in that situation and get pissed the same way some audio people react hysterically to your criticism of their system.  It is a cheap shot and I don't like it.  I'm ready to appologize if I'm mistaken though.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

I always say that Audio is not a purpose but juts a tool. Unfortunately many audio Morons ™ use audio as a tool FOR WRONG PURPOSE. I was very far from suggesting that audio is a tool for improving sense of self, or patting own ego. I juts wish more Audio people able to discover that OTHER MEANING OF AUDIO PURPOSE… Perhaps then, criticizing other’s Audio efforts we would be able to find nobler objectives and might allow themselves to become more attentive listeners of each other… Just little bit more honesty and little bit less fear…

Amen!
Romy the Cat



It seems to happen so easilly that the recorded music and its presentation becomes just a tool to evaluate a system.  Audio critics talk about particular recordings to show case the pros and cons of a system (a component) in review, audiophiles put on a disc only to evaluate or admire what his system can or cannot do.  When someone's in this mode, the system itself becomes the purpose.  It is like the church itself becomes the purpose instead of it being a tool to serve your faith.  So when the church is criticized, they take it as if their faith is critisized.

I wonder if what we (I) need is a different perspective and wordings to talk about audio, instead of the typical separate sonic parameters like high/mid/low, soundstage, imaging, etc., etc.  Something in higher order that can put those separate parameters in perspective (can be multiple perspectives) and that can penetrate and disarm the church, but that'll be a separate topic.

Yoshi
06-28-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 16
Post ID: 2601
Reply to: 2600
Show me the Sound!

 yoshi wrote:
This is how I took Jonathan's post.  He (Janathan) is mocking you (Romy) by presenting a hypothetical situation assuming your ego would be hurt in that situation and get pissed the same way some audio people react hysterically to your criticism of their system.

Why show I get pissed in that hypothetical situation? Quite opposite: I would feel very much gratified. It would be completely up to me if I accept a criticism worth attention but would I discard the opportunity to explore the subject deeper. It is very similar with Melquiades. It would be essay to make a pair of them for myself to listen it and to show to the people out there a big middle fingers proposing that that their SETs are most likely are crap. The fan part is not juts make the Melq but to make the Melq’s performance level available publicly and make it available for a prospective collaboration and prospective future improvement. I do monitor what is going on with Melq around the world and do examine the criticism that it get. But here is where the Melquiades critics are falling short (very much similar to the Jonathan’s hypothetical situation). Whatever I have seen people try to criticize the Melq was always groundless and based upon some prejudices that people managed to build upon their former failed projects. I mean the criticism was always based upon the subject of own ego but not the subject of the Melquiades design (I do not mention that Melquiades performance because none of the critics heard it). Now, what it has to do with the Jonathan’s hypothetical situation? Well, I feel that the Jonathan’s hypothetical situation is Jonathan’s hypothetically faulty as he more mock his relation to the subject then recognizes an importance of the subject.
  jweiss wrote:
If someone sent you an email telling you, in quite a clear way, how you had made an enormous mistake in one of your audio projects, for example an exercise in modifying a speaker, detailing all the mistakes you had made in not correctly understanding the design of such a type of driver, how your misunderstanding led to wrong paths in modification, and so forth…

Yoshi, pay attention that in proposing this hypothetical situation Jonathan makes assumption that exist any abstract ultimate implementation upon which the “enormous mistake” might be evaluated. However, in this hypothetical situation Jonathan associate the “ultimate implementation” with some sort of “unrelated awareness” that has no connectivity to the actual evaluateable results. I would accept the Jonathan example much more seriously if Jonathan said: “If someone sent you an email telling you, in quite a clear way describing the sonic imperfections I have in my room based upon the proposed enormous mistake I made with not correctly understanding the design of a type of driver, how your misunderstanding led to wrong paths in modification, and so forth…” Without taking under consideration sonic results there is not needs to talk about anything in audio at all. But would the sonic considerations be my primary motivation for doing those “misunderstandings that let me to wrong paths in modification”, would they be?
The point is that the very much as audio people are Moronic in accepting criticism of own playbacks they also foolish to expressing criticism. What Jonathan is proposing is unfortunately is very common. If you go to any product centric Internet community you will see an army of what I call “droolers’. Thos people bind themselves with a church or Altec, RCA, WE, Pre-war Telefunken, Vitavox, Klipsh, JBL, balanced circuits, MOSFET amplifiers, silver cable and so forth… and they alleviant to the actual sonic results as long their conceptual playbacks complies with their vision of not making “the enormous mistakes”. The bad part that the criterion of mistakes for those people is not Sound but the irrelevant “concept”, the concept that subordinated brain’s logic but not ears… Those people are boring like hell in audio and they are so far off that they mostly do not get when they are being mocked.
 yoshi wrote:
It seems to happen so easilly that the recorded music and its presentation becomes just a tool to evaluate a system.  Audio critics talk about particular recordings to show case the pros and cons of a system (a component) in review, audiophiles put on a disc only to evaluate or admire what his system can or cannot do.  When someone's in this mode, the system itself becomes the purpose.  It is like the church itself becomes the purpose instead of it being a tool to serve your faith.  So when the church is criticized, they take it as if their faith is critisized.

Yes, I like you association between audio and church, I use it myself quite frequently. But in the end here is a hint for you: unquestionably music is a tool to evaluate a system but from a certain perspective (or at certain level) music and audio are absolutely not related entities and audio is a purely self-contained and encapsulated field.

 yoshi wrote:
I wonder if what we (I) need is a different perspective and wordings to talk about audio, instead of the typical separate sonic parameters like high/mid/low, soundstage, imaging, etc., etc.  Something in higher order that can put those separate parameters in perspective (can be multiple perspectives) and that can penetrate and disarm the church, but that'll be a separate topic.

Well, I do not have a universal recipe. I personally use associations with people who could understand them. Unfortunately it is difficult with audio people. I mean how many bible-thumping freaks could understand hyperbolas, allegories, parables or metaphors. They take everything direct and primitive like a manual for VCR. I ma not even mention that most of the audio installations out there are not at the level where “interesting” associations might be applied and they are juts in domain of badly implemented high/mid/low, soundstage, imaging, etc., etc….

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-29-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 294
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 17
Post ID: 2604
Reply to: 2600
Re: Burn the church
Yoshi wrote: It is like the church itself becomes the purpose instead of it being a tool to serve your faith.  So when the church is criticized, they take it as if their faith is criticized.

That's a very good point.

One must at the same time realize, however, that often enough it is the faith that's being criticized.

Myself I see no difficulty in admitting the dual nature of our hobby; it's about sound and it's about music. The fellow who has a handful of discs he forever listens to, should be just as welcome here as the fellow who achieves whatever level he's happy with for his music.  We who practice both, though, are the real winners.

clark
06-30-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
livemusic
Posts 2
Joined on 11-26-2005

Post #: 18
Post ID: 2609
Reply to: 2601
Re: Show me the Sound!
Romy,
 You are absolutely right, saying "audiophile" which is not capable to hear any criticizm about his system, is very far from inderstanding what the music is. As an amator painter, a joined (long ago) to a group of amators like me, gathering every week around master (thruly professional), presenting our own opuses to the group and trying to understand what's wrong/good during free discussion. I still remember me presenting my painting first time: you are staying naked against the crowd, I tell you! Lot of people come and go, uncapable to tolerate another person attacking his very intimate and precious work. And only those which could bear and analyze painful critical feedbacks, made any progress. 
 But, there is a point I cannot fully agree with you, saying "music and audio are absolutely not related entities and audio is a purely self-contained and encapsulated field". Not for me. Yesterday I put a record of I.Moravec playing Beethoven on my TT. At this very minute my dauther decided to vacuum her carpet in adjacent room, so I started to hear "Pathetique" with a pronounced backgroud noise. In the middle of the first part I thought to myself:"What he is doing? It is Beethoven and not Dvorzak, it is an oil on canvas and not aquarell on paper! Too soft, delicate and melancholic..." Here my dauther finished with her carpet, and suddenly all subtle sonic nuances took their place in whole picture. I was absolutely convinced; beauty and inner logical structure of the performance were revealed. Perhaps, some advanced professional musiciants prefer to simply read scores, and not to play records. But plain music lovers like me consume music by means of somebody elses performance. And I have different perception hearing music from the first five rows of concert hall than standing far away in the corner behind the column.
Rgs,
06-30-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 19
Post ID: 2610
Reply to: 2609
Another side of the “glorified audio” harm

 livemusic wrote:
You are absolutely right, saying "audiophile" which is not capable to hear any criticizm about his system….

Well, there is another side of the medal in it. The fact that they are not capable to bear criticism is bad but not harmful. The harm comes from the fact that they use faulty positive criticism in the situation where it should not be use. Each time when those Morons positive a positive feedback about an entire system or about a performance of a components they use that positive self-cheerleading that has no relation to the actual state of Sound from that component. Everything that they do sounds “fabulous” and the problem her is that that dilutes worth of any analysis. I have seen again and again how the Morons herring different installation at showrooms, at show or in private home provided growling feedback with spectacular adjectives but in private conversation they admitted that it was absolutely crappy sound. In those situations I can recognize the double harm: firth there is not educational value in throe experiences and second the stupid glorification of poor results crates an unavoidable feedback to own consciousness that dilutes the senses.


 livemusic wrote:
But, there is a point I cannot fully agree with you, saying "music and audio are absolutely not related entities and audio is a purely self-contained and encapsulated field".

I know what you are saying and I knew that it would be folks who might object. Still, knowing and feeling the objection you made and that other might do I insist that music and audio at certain level stop to be not related. It might be longer conversation and it properly should be abstracted into another thread if it goes further.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-08-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 20
Post ID: 2646
Reply to: 2579
Perception of critique as an indicator of Moronity.
 clarkjohnsen wrote:
I have made it a policy never, ever to critique anyone's system unless I have been presented with sufficient knowledge that I won't be hurting the guy's feelings. But he has to initiate that procedure.
Well, I know what you are saying but I feel differently. The more I learn the audio freaks the more I’m realizing that it is very useful to criticize playback (if the playback called for it) right form the beginning without any hesitation or concerns and THEN to observe the system owner reaction. If the person expresses interest about REASONS and MOTIVATIONS of the criticism than the person deserves attention and his, even negative sonic results, should be taken considering. If the person put himself in the position of unwarranted hostility and begin to harass you with his ownership pride than the person should be declared as an idiot and any further conversation with him better be terminated.

Rgs,
Romy The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-25-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 4810
Reply to: 2546
It is how YOU screw yourself up.

 person wrote:
“… this is our new flagman speaker and if I let you to listen it then you shell not comment on it for one year.”

 person wrote:
“… you can listen it but you have not say about it to anyone.”

 person wrote:
“… but if you think the unit is unspeakable garbage I prefer you don't put that on your website.”

I hear these types of requests again and again. Surely I understand where people are coming from and surely I respect the rules of engagement, if I decided to proceed. I have many occasions when some dealers, distributors or manufacturers exposed me to something with at prohibition to express my public opinion about that “something”. Many “stature of limitations” on these agreements are up and I free to say whatever I wish but irony is that possible negative or positive judgment about a product, a company, a topology or about a specific installation attempt is not what interests me. In fact I find that it is extremely unpleasant and hugely ungratifying to express negative or critical comments about audio components or installations. And the reason for that is, not that I do not like to do it but extremely antagonistic  and near-idiotic perception of majority of audio public to any critical feedback. Pay attention I said critical feedback, not negative feedback!

It is astonishes and annoys me how audio-fools accept criticism. If you have a house with and leaky roof and someone told you is that a roof building techniques where not appropriate for the amount of precipitation in your region than most likely you will not hold personal grudge against the person but a rather begin to EDUCATE YOURSELF on the subject of a roof fixing. With Audio everything works differently. A person who stepped into a big puddle of water on your floor and the person who pointed you at a wet spot at your ceiling become not a trigger for you to assess (or reassess) the state of your perception but rather at a personal enemy who violently trespassed your little backyard. Talking about me. The irony is that I do not ever remember that I ever passed any negative judgment or just negative perception without trying to justify or rationalize the events (unless the collaborator is a cretin that makes me to become economical and do not waste my time). Those rationalizations attempts, acknowledgment of negative consequences to Sound, recognition of the patterns are actually it is the most interesting and gratifying thing for me in my negative remarks. I learn on the mistakes of others very much as I learn on my mistakes. I'm sure everybody else do the same, so I wonder why everybody else in Audio just afraid to acknowledge the sightlessness of their pursue and stop to treat mistakes as failures.

Why audio people are so driven by fear? If those people have just business motivations (and I would perfectly understand and respect it) then why do they care to expose their products to such people like me: It is known that I don't give a shit their about business interests or agendas. If they are interested to a pure sonic evaluation of their products than why do they afraid of any criticism? If they in insist me to keep my position public doesn't mean that they have at premonition or confidence that their products supposed to be underperforming sonically?

Well, I do not want to sound that I am overly dummy and that I do not understand the situation, surely anyone who reads it understands it as well. However, behind all that “understanding” I think laying a huge shotgun with which the audio people should themselves in own leg. I think the Real Audio self-education starts with elimination of fear, openness and ability to recognize and exchange assessments or compare notes honestly and unconditionally. Certainly honesty is not something which prevents from critique mistakes; still the Truth never exists in “conclusions” but rather in conditions and circumstances. That elimination, bleaching, and abolition of fine nuances of conditions and circumstances is something that I feel is terminally lost when audio people do not practice to criticize audio and do not practice to exchange their criticism publicly. I would wish more people will share my views as I know it would lead to better Sound in the peoples listening rooms and also it would lead to the less amount of Moronity among audio public.

Rgs, Romy the CaT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-26-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 22
Post ID: 4816
Reply to: 4810
"High-End"... An acquired taste

Hello Romy and friends,

With regard to constructive criticism:

At the risk of stating the obvious: Not many people (audio manufacturers included) have your level of references with regard to both sound and equipment (to say nothing of musical culture). Serious audio manufacturers would probably very much value the input of a pair of ears like yours (they’d be crazy not to), if they could just get it to occur before putting the product on sale. Such a scenario would of course wreak havoc with the cat’s routine…


With regard to the apparent ignorance and “high-end” gear:

I think it comes down to a question of passion.

As becoming an audio manufacturer often has its roots in a passion for, if not sound, then SOMETHING, I believe that in most cases the manufacturers do have the best intentions, and do try to build the best products their ability allows.

However, though it sounds ridiculous, I also believe that most manufacturers simply do not have the references necessary to judge their own work. This BTW is not restricted to audio:  I know a lot of “automotive engineers” that will not acknowledge the importance of a rigid chassis; this is because they have never experienced a proper rigid chassis… The result of their work is Twisto-Flex garbage!

The truth is that this sort of reference (be it an automotive chassis having reference level rigidity, or audio) is super difficult to access. One would however think that those having sufficient passion would seek out such references (why they would not, is something I don’t understand)…

At the same time, those having the passion of the average postal employee should be stripped of their badge as creators (That’s the mild version…The general lack of passion I find in others is a wall against which I regularly slam my head. Is passion not what differentiates a human from a cabbage?)

Your system and particularly the Macondos is an example of a level of reference that is very difficult to access… Believe me I know… My back is killing me from the work I’ve been doing, but the rewards are already so apparent. Though I may not be able to walk when all is done, the experience so far has been supremely educational… I’m no different than anyone else… Without having made this investment in time, sweat and cash, I simply would not have had access to this knowledge (this tool really).

The public of course suffers from the same lack of access to these references, and hence is ignorant of what is possible. People simply do not know enough to demand better, or how even to define “better”. They would if they could, but as you often say, the mass of equipment available to the public does not favor such enlightenment.

The audio world is no different, and is orbiting within the current, very narrow base of references… It doesn’t make sense… If they are not good, how then did they become our references??? History shows that the people can be massively led, and massively misled. I suppose the “why” is another subject. As inappropriate as they may be, we have these references and most if not all equipment is designed with them in mind. Music has of course somewhat evolved as a function of the capacity of the equipment (current pop music often lacks mid range but has a lot of narrow band bass and HF…Most PA/concert speakers no longer even bother to incorporate a dedicated mid range driver!).

It is unlikely that the situation be changed over night by a manufacturer offering one piece of really superb equipment. That one piece of superb equipment would likely be completely incompatible with anything else currently available.

I believe that people are still sensitive and respond to genuine quality (though some need to be smacked a bit harder before they catch on), and because of this there is some very long-term hope.

In the mean time, in the name of the advancement of mankind, those few with true reference level access (regardless of the domain) should share this access as often as is practicable … Which I suppose is exactly what this site does.

Jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
07-26-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 23
Post ID: 4817
Reply to: 4816
The chronicles about audio we practice…

Actually I would like to stay at on the subject of this thread - the benefits of critiques and the benefits of positive perception of critiques. I less care about corporations as they have no personal consciousness but I rather target my attention to a person who “does audio”, regardless what industry status s/he put on himself/herself.

The critical assessment the sound of playback installation is superbly important if proper assessment techniques are used. I remember a few years ago Vladimir Lamm suggested me literally to write down the notable perceptions that I experience with my playback in order to teach myself to clearly identify problems. I did and then I reviewed my log as time went by. Lamm was absolutely correct proposing it and I found that it was a very power method to teach own awareness about proper assessment methodology. I do not do logging and analyses of my listening practice anymore… but how different my entire website from my old listening log? Sure they are in a way the same. My early logging practices turned into my site that you read now, my inclinations for objective critical assessment turned into my firm audio conception:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=432

and some of my broader views turned into  a quite effective OBJECTIVE methodology for Audio Evaluations:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=50

(that I never took further then Seconded Level publicly). Frankly, looking at audio sites and taking with audio people I would like less to see their “wondering mind navigating from a component to a component” but rather would like to hear their critiques and their chronicle about audio that they practice…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-26-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 24
Post ID: 4819
Reply to: 4817
BTW, the earth is not flat.
"Actually I would like to stay at on the subject of this thread - the benefits of critiques and the benefits of positive perception of critiques"

To put my above meandering in more simple terms : I believe that your constructive criticism is indigestible to the great majority of those on the receiving end. I believe this indigenstion is due to a lack of adequate references.

"Why audio people are so driven by fear?"
What you tell them is, from their point of view, simply and quite honestly unbelievable; There is however a part of the recipient that suspects some of what you are telling them might actually be true, which induces confusion and hence fear. You are in effect telling an old-world cartographer that the earth is not flat!

Its a classic text book case of what once used to get people burned at the stake.

What you are telling them is so far out, that in some cases your words are likely interpreted as those of a person having clearly malicious intent. You have in effect become "a personal enemy who violently trespassed your (their) little backyard".

This is due to what?... Lack of adequate references on the part of the recipient... on the individual level... regardless of the fact that the individual may be an audio manufacturer, an audio reviewer, or an audio consumer. You might just as well be speaking Greek to them (that would scare them less).

"...so I wonder why everybody else in Audio just afraid to acknowledge the sightlessness of their pursue and stop to treat mistakes as failures."

Probably because within their frame of reference, they have not at all created a failure... They have perfectly responded to the code.

Once again, they do not possess adequate references to judge or (more to the point of your original post) TO FIELD A JUDGEMENT REFERENCING POINTS BEYOND THE ACKNOWLEDGED BOUNDS.

BTW, disclaimer... I myself am certainly very inexperienced and probably just as ignorant as anyone else. I try not to take myself seriously to the point that it obscures learning.

Also, the title of my above post "High-end... An acquired taste" could be misinterpreted : I meant to suggest that the current state of what defines excellence in audio is a sort of acquired or learned code... it is not natural, and nobody would have ever guessed that such characteristics ("That elimination, bleaching, and abolition of fine nuances of conditions and circumstances") would one day define "excellence" in sound reproduction.

Like it or not, we have been dealt this code... Undoing it will not come over night.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
07-27-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 25
Post ID: 4821
Reply to: 2546
Church itself as a purpose instead of it being a tool
Someone "Lowrider" from Portugal's MSN audio user group, referring to this thread said: "It is like the church itself becomes the purpose instead of it being a tool to serve your faith. So when the church is criticized, they take it as if their faith is criticized".

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 1 of 2 (45 items) Select Pages:  1 2 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Critique audio performance before acquire new element...  Critique audio performance before acquire new element....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     0  28435  12-31-2004
  »  New  Klangfilm: actual knowledge is better then fetish imagi..  Klangfilm Kl51...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  155570  03-15-2007
  »  New  The most appalling audio types...  The most appalling audio types: personally over-vested...  Audio Discussions  Forum     10  83312  06-15-2007
  »  New  Bookshelf Horns..  How the menacingly-empty idiots design audio....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     3  30759  03-17-2010
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts