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  »  New  Prices in High-End Audio...  About the car comparation....  Audio Discussions  Forum     27  93690  07-04-2005
  »  New  A new amplifier from Audio Note...  Re: H Kondo RIP...  Audio News Forum     4  43467  09-15-2005
01-03-2010 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
tokyo john
Narashino, Japan
Posts 32
Joined on 01-31-2006

Post #: 1
Post ID: 12613
Reply to: 12613
Audio Note new turntable and inflation
fiogf49gjkf0d
Audio Note has released a turntable called the Ginga which costs 60 thousand US dollars in Japan. (if you google Audio Note Ginga images you will find it very easily).
My first reaction was pure cynicism, as Audio Note does traditionally price its products aimed at Russian oligarchs, but given how prices of tonearms have gone up so much (prices of Dynavector, SME arms have doubled over the past 10 years), it is possible that it costs a lot of money to bring out a turntable like this today (ok, if not 60k, maybe 25k?).
Limited quantities, precision machining, and the small number of machining companies who will take on the job etc. all make it lot more expensive than 20 years ago to do the same thing. People who own Micros in good condition shoud rethink what price they should ask for when they sell!?

Digressing a bit, I have no idea if the Ginga is as good as a top class Micro, but in the latest Stereo Sound (Japanese hi-end audio magazine), one of the reviewers (and all Japanese audio reviewers are pretty familiar with Micros) said he approached the turntable with great skeptism but was actually impressed by the sound (given the price, he ought to!). Audio Note hardly advertises, so I think there is much less favoritism at play compared to say a product from Sony.
Other thing to note is that the founder of Audio Note, Kondo, has passed away and the company is now being run by people who used to work for him. I have heard how the current folks at Koetsu (son of the founder no less), has a more business-like approach to things and many Japanese swear by the "first generation Koetsus".

Coming back to the original theme, much manufacturing has moved out to China, so until the Chinese get serious about audio, and are able to do very high quality machining, prices of tomearms and turntables have no place to go but up. Since gold has already gone up so much in price, buying a couple of Gingas may be a good way to hedge against inflation :-)
01-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 12614
Reply to: 12613
The Turntables and their Prices
fiogf49gjkf0d

 tokyo john wrote:
Audio Note has released a turntable called the Ginga which costs 60 thousand US dollars in Japan. (if you google Audio Note Ginga images you will find it very easily).
My first reaction was pure cynicism, as Audio Note does traditionally price its products aimed at Russian oligarchs, but given how prices of tonearms have gone up so much (prices of Dynavector, SME arms have doubled over the past 10 years), it is possible that it costs a lot of money to bring out a turntable like this today (ok, if not 60k, maybe 25k?).
Limited quantities, precision machining, and the small number of machining companies who will take on the job etc. all make it lot more expensive than 20 years ago to do the same thing. People who own Micros in good condition shoud rethink what price they should ask for when they sell!?

Digressing a bit, I have no idea if the Ginga is as good as a top class Micro, but in the latest Stereo Sound (Japanese hi-end audio magazine), one of the reviewers (and all Japanese audio reviewers are pretty familiar with Micros) said he approached the turntable with great skeptism but was actually impressed by the sound (given the price, he ought to!). Audio Note hardly advertises, so I think there is much less favoritism at play compared to say a product from Sony.
Other thing to note is that the founder of Audio Note, Kondo, has passed away and the company is now being run by people who used to work for him. I have heard how the current folks at Koetsu (son of the founder no less), has a more business-like approach to things and many Japanese swear by the "first generation Koetsus".

Coming back to the original theme, much manufacturing has moved out to China, so until the Chinese get serious about audio, and are able to do very high quality machining, prices of tomearms and turntables have no place to go but up. Since gold has already gone up so much in price, buying a couple of Gingas may be a good way to hedge against inflation :-)

Interning that I had a very same discussion with a NY friend of mine a few days back. There was a Micro 5000/II in a very good condition in HiFiDo and it was sold for $7K-$8K. I made a few calls to a few friends of mine informing them about the fact that it was a 1/3 -1/4 of the price from where it shell be. When I mention about it to my NY friend he told me that he had brand new Micro 8000/II, very last production, sealed in the box, never opened. He is willing to sell it he asked ask what I think the price for it might be? That leaded us to the very same conversation that you, John, stated. Continuum Caliburn has price tag of $160K, Transrotor Argos- $250K, Clearaudio Statement - $142K, Basis Work of Art – $170,000, Goldmund Reference- $142K, Transrotor Artus- $200K, Audio Consulting Revolution -- $140K, Clearaudio Ultimate Reference - $100K. I can continue the list but I think everyone who read this site knows it. The prices them are not necessary outrages but outrages is that fact that none of those prices have any relation to sound the TT produce. The prices themselves became a product of industry. For instance if I have a chose to get a new Continuum or Transrotor vs. to get  Micro 8000 or MIT 927 then I would get Micro/MIT with any second though. Does it mean that top Micro/MIT shall cost $300K-$400K? A rational person would say so, but there is very little sanity in High-End.

The problem with High-End price makers is not that they can’t put the price tag on Sound but that they do not truly know what Sound is. I am very much not kidding. Industry does not sell Sound but talks about Sound, the promise of gratification that has absolutely nothing to do with Sound. In this environment price might be anything and become very much irrelevant. Ironically I learned something from my real-estate buy-side broker. He has a notion that each house has a value for me, not the price that is being asked for the house. I think it a very right attitude. Yesterday I was asking for a new cable:

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=12611 

I said that I would not pay for this more then $150. It is not because that I can’t not afford more but it is because that in context of my playback and the results that I get from my analog I do have a feel that the value of this cable shall not be more than $150.  If somebody makes cables that coast $10.000 then good for them and they need to learn how to make the very same cable to coast $150, not to mention that we all know that all expensive cables cost a few dollars to produce and all super-cable prices is just an industry pump up.

So, how much a very good TT shell cost in a playback of a person who would like to get good analog sound? That is very interesting question. As we enter into association of price for the features and price for useable result. Did you pay attention that it NEVER was done by industry? Wonder why?

About the new Condo Ginga TT – I do not know a lot about it. From their web site is said that it is oil-bearing and has sort SME tonearm, I do not know anything else. I personally would challenge the fact that $60K TT has an accommodation just for one tonearm. However, it is not $60K TT. From this $60K of the retail price 10%-15% is the “street” accommodation, 50%-60% is dealers mark up, 10%-15% is distributor mark up, 10%-20% is industry accommodations. What is left? $5K-$7K cash that Condo would get? Thai is pretty much how much a good  TT shall coast to begin with. Would you agree that sound of tonearm, sound of cartridge and sound of phonostage is as important as the sound of TT? If one pays $2K for cartridge then why he shell pay more for TT if the sound of cartridge is MORE important than the sound of TT?

As I said – a very little common sense and the whole illusionary BS that the industry built around itself despairs like a mirage… 

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tokyo john
Narashino, Japan
Posts 32
Joined on 01-31-2006

Post #: 3
Post ID: 12615
Reply to: 12614
An effort at justification
fiogf49gjkf0d

Wow, price inflation in TTs were a lot worse than I thought! (more than 400% in nominal prices in the example of Goldmund).

You are right, the prices in audio seem a riddle wrapped in a mystery within an enigma. As a manufacturer, it is almost a disgrace: Supposedly Roy Gandy of Rega said that it would cost more to make the original Linn Ittok tonearm (maybe 1000 dollars in 1980, than the Linn Ekos arm which probably cost more than 4000 just a few years ago?). In cars afterall, prices have been quite flat and content has gone up and up (cars are safer, can go faster etc). But then autos is a more competitive industry and can mean life and death in some situations.

As an investor, my job is to figure out prices, and I have to confess, part of my fascination with audio since I was in 8th grade, was apart from the sound, my fascination with the high prices. I loved to think about the kind of micro-tolerance machining and engineering that must have gone into an SME magnesium tonearm or Goldmund Reference TT (I was a lot less cynical as a child).

I tell you that investing in companies is so simple in comparison! You just have to make an educated guess about how much cash will be generated by the business over its lifetime based on its 20 year track record. Then its all about understanding human behaviour and mental discipline. But I digress.

I have also thought hard about prices for tailor made suits (6000 dollars, or 30 times more expensive than a budget suit), swiss watches which cost tens of thousands (also 30 times a timex), and European luxury cars (Tata Nano is 3k, increase the price 50% to comply with Euro safety standards, and 30 times more for an S class Mercedes). No doubt for all of these a big component of price is purely the lack of economies of scale and productivity, never mind better finish and better materials. The productivity side is basically the lack of division of labor (could be people or industrial organization), high labor costs (European or Japanese vs China or Vietnam) etc. Compared to these things, prices in audio are maybe not so out of whack; all of these low volume products need a very high price to entice entrepreneurs to provide them. Risk of failure is higher too. Then depending of the honesty of the product itself, the providers will be crooks or honest businessmen. This is maybe a generous view?

In terms of prices that people are willing to pay.....even though I was fascinated by magnesium tonearms and Micro Seiki bearings, I could never imagine paying more than 10k for a full audio system. But my exposure to suits, watches and cars have made me become more forgiving. I have also become wealthier and less price sensitive. More than that though, I have worked in many big and famous banks and also worked for myself, so I know what kind of people work in big companies and how only mediocre ideas make it up through the organization (stuff like CDOs and subprime mortgage backed securities). I can therefore say that a small team of motivated and talented individuals, who are happy to go with new ideas (which are more risky), can put out products and services that despite their high costs (much of which is due to the fact that they are a low volume business) will be more satisfying IF the buyer is not price sensitive. Unfortunately there are so many phonies, crooks and charlatans in audio (same as banks) which give even the honest entrepreneur/innovator a bad name.


01-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tokyo john
Narashino, Japan
Posts 32
Joined on 01-31-2006

Post #: 4
Post ID: 12616
Reply to: 12615
Postscript
fiogf49gjkf0d
The best investors are usually small, obscure and unknown, whereas all the famous investors and fund managers are same as the worst audio crooks.
Interestingly, there is no relationship between price and talent in this field - is almost random chance you found a good investor to manage your money. But at least over time, the performance of the investments are very clear to see and you know if you screwed up.

With a car, I think when you drive at high speeds, the better car is obvious even to a woman who has no interest in cars (less stressful to drive). Cannot explain all price difference, as personal taste and ego are quite big factors. And do you really need to drive that fast?

An expensive suit or shoes are more problematic; most value is in the head of the buyer, but if he feels confident or sexy as a result, and that allows him to do a presentation well or work up the courage to invite a girl to dance with him, is worth it?

A watch is 100% whether a design has appeal to the beholder (unless is purely to impress materialistic women). If it is an expensive watch, you hope the materials (precious metals, complexity and workmanship) will justify at least a fraction of the cost. Like having a piece of art on your wrist basically.

Lastly, audio sound. A bit of everything? Random luck is a factor as equipment combination and listening environment can make a big difference, and also personal biases. A good system should be stress-free at the least to listen to. If it makes you feel happy anyway and enjoy life as a result, is ok as long as you are not unknowingly torturing your cat with bad sound. If you like the design and concept, and quality of construction can partly expalin the cost, is good enough? As I said, compared to this, investing is a piece of cake :-)
01-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 12617
Reply to: 12616
The necessary and unnecessary features.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think when we are taking about the today TT we do not mean inventions – there are no inventions that I see in mega-priced turntables. All that I see are small manufactures, very inefficient production, very little market for sale and distribution and huge marketing opened and hidden marketing expense.  99% of what is built in mega-priced turntables is not necessary for sound or even expensive to make – it was just made to make it appear expensive and give to sale-people some taking points. It like a manufacturer who made 4 chassis preamp - do you think there is a need for it? Of course, not but he would be able to change more for it because it has more boxes. BTW, one of the reasons why I love Micro is because it has absolutely nothing that is not supposed to be in TT. I spoke with a person who saw a TT made in Leningrad with 90kG steal platter that was floating in a bath of mercury. The TT included a room-size air filtration machine that sucked out the mercury weapon. I am sure it was very expensive topology but was it necessary to serve Sound?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tokyo john
Narashino, Japan
Posts 32
Joined on 01-31-2006

Post #: 6
Post ID: 12618
Reply to: 12617
Tragedy and comedy
fiogf49gjkf0d
That mercury-bath turntable is pretty crazy! I guess people always find a way to screw up any endevour that started out with a simple and promising idea. Take Buddhism; the original ideas were very reasonable and practical - be hygenic, be nice, try not to do foolish things etc. That became very elaborate shrines and all kinds of mystical rituals, then a whole industry is built on top of it. (funny, but maybe Nietszche was opposite; his were very sophisticated and powerful ideas that got dumbed down until no one takes him seriously without realizing after Plato we have nothing but Nietszche). Good audio can help us enjoy the music better, to discover things we missed when we were just listening to internet radio; is alll very worthwhile but if you do not have your own sonic compass the sharks will rob you blind.  
01-07-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 7
Post ID: 12632
Reply to: 12618
Money makes the world go round
fiogf49gjkf0d
When we have these discussions we should be aware on which side who is:
On one side we have the manufacturer, who has to live from his product. That is very important for our thinking and our conclusions. At the same side we have our "Journalists", they need the money, too (or they like the contact to the manufactures because they have special prices when they want something, for themselves or to sell it later for a better price.) And there are very few, who don't need the money but want to write because they "like music so much", but they have absolutely no idea from anything, too. When they would have any idea from it, they would hate that "job". Listening to nonsense 8h a day can ruin the internal balance...
On the other side we have the customer, more or less experienced, more or less wealthy, more or less interested, but always important (and right!!) in his opinion. Whatever this opinion will be :-)
Their main problem is (but they don't know it) they know nothing, too. They repeat what others tell them.
What they "know" is very simple:
They read a review and save a few sentences from the unit in their brain. And they repeat it again and again, when they have conversations with their buddies or they dream about "tis & tat". And after a while they believe in it, it is transformed into "Truth", "Knowledge" or "Facts"...
High End is not a complete BfZ (Brain free Zone), but it is not far from it.

When I had contact to some Importers lots of years ago (they are all out of business or dead) I had to change my mind. They told me, they have dealers who pressed them to offer more expensive products, who told them, they have rich clients who want to spend 8000+ $ for a 1,0m cable.... Those Importers phoned the manufacturers and told them what they "need".

Most of the serious manufacturers (from my view) laughed about that and said it is quite nonsense but: Money makes the world go round.
Most time was not invested in Physics or serious research, most time was invested to find someone who can offer more elegant and expensive plugs, or cable shielding, top painting etc.

Same with turntables. Most customers have absolutely no idea from bearing quality, azimuth, the design of a tonearm etc. The analog revival is not based on the superiority to Digital, it is based that nearly everyone who is able to hit a nail into the wall, made the decision to build a Turntable.And: Most importantThe Mark up or profit is max.

Some time ago I thought, the wealthy Audiophiles - who can afford the "Dream units"- are experienced, because they can afford to have an own opinion, they had everything and on the way "up" they made some experiences.

That is my personal master mistake.
For the most it is like going into a Toy Store, they don't want to think (they refuse for whatever reason). It is like showing my Horse, my Boat, my Car, my wife and my girl friend...
Only 2 factors are important:

- it has to be - very - expensive (otherwise they don't get the respect they want)
and
- it has to be Component of the Year, Review Winner or similar

And THAT's it 

End of that Story. I never (I repeat: NEVER) heard so much BS when talking with these guys, I NEVER got so much Headache when I listened to their Systems, that's why I stopped having conversation with them. I want to get paid for that.
(Otherwise I stay at home laying in my chair on a sunny day with a cool Drink right and my wife left)

Money and Quality

In that time I was sometimes with those Importers in their rooms at Exhibition shows and was able to hear the conversations:
In all those years I NEVER, I repeat NEVER, heard from a Dealer how good this or that unit is sounding (and it was good stuff, Wavac, BASIS etc.), it was ALWAYS this way:
- How many points I have on this product?
- What price you offer when I pay in 30 Days, 1 week, prepay?
- Extra Points????
ONLY that.

Maybe there are some Turntables out there which show some serious brain and maybe they are better than others, but after 15 years of High End I have to say, Romy hit the nail so unbelievable good with his Micro thinking, it is hard to believe. 

And:
It was true, it is true and it will be more true in future.

Being an Audiophile is interesting :-)


Kind Regards
Stitch
01-07-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tokyo john
Narashino, Japan
Posts 32
Joined on 01-31-2006

Post #: 8
Post ID: 12636
Reply to: 12632
Might not be true in the future, Stitch
fiogf49gjkf0d
Because no young person I know is interested in hi-end audio, so the industry may well be dead when baby boomers lose their hearing!?:-)

In the meantime, if one is not gullible (moronic, Romy would say), it is quite interesting how audio products do produce different "sound", and I wish I had Romys tenacity and persistence. It must be kinda of fun to have owned and used all kinds of products, and even though most of them might have been crap, to have been able to acsertain that with ones own ears!

This site is a big help to that end, i.e., ending audio moron-ism. I hope this thread made a small contribution; what was interesting about the Audio Note Ginga is that its design looks very much like a traditional Micro (simple), unlike other fancy designs featuring tons of acrylic, chrome, kevlar, 100 patents whatever. So the Ginga potentially provided a crude "apples to apples" comparison. Many people must have looked at the Ginga and thought, gee, my Micro is pretty nice asset?

01-07-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 12637
Reply to: 12636
Corrections and comments
fiogf49gjkf0d

John, a few corrections for start

First of all the gullible and moronic are not interchangeable words and I never use one instead of other. Second Audio Note Ginga does not look like traditional Micro. It has oil suspension and God knows what else. I do not know what Ginga has and what principles it uses. One of the greatest despoilment is that audio media cretins mane public to think about design concepts when they approach turntable but not about the sonic characteristics. Did you ever hears/read any TT designer who was taking/thinking about TT in terms of Sound? I never heard it. They will talk about vibrations, momentums, space technologies, laser trimming and % of distortions but I still did not see TT people who think it terms of Sound. I personally witnessed a demonstration when a team of VERY expensive TT (the most expensive and the most glorified in today market) presented this TT. After a few bars I asked to stop demo as the hugely sophisticated TT clearly ran at slower speed. The designer team was very surprised that I was saying such foolishness. I was very surprised that they did not recognize it. Then they spent a hale night to fix the damn TT…

Many of today High-end products are just a worthless show off what might be sold instead of furnishing of what sound needs. I am not in position to criticize TTs. It is very difficult to do and I would never undertake to review Turntables. Sometime it takes years to get proper sound from a TT or a cartridge and I can only to be sorry about the industry idiots who have a few TT, arms and needles during each month. Anyone who understand anything in analog would know how much superficial and phony the feedback of such idiots might be. The problem however is that the sound of TT does not sell the TT. The sale will come from an asshole US distributor of Kondo would sit on phone and will call to his buttered up clientele. It is possible that that the new Ginga is an OK TT, the problem is that no one will know it because it will be sold to ignorant people and by via dirty methods.  The very same Kondo US distributor when he picked up a distribution of Lowther driver with a back loaded horn 10 years ago was lobbing Audio Asylum Owner to delete from AA archives any negative posts about single speaker drivers (and they did it!!!) The very same whore-distributor will tomorrow "decide" if the Ginga TT sounds good.  I hope Ginga is heavy TT and I hope that distributor-asshole will break his back lifting it up…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-07-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
misnacat
Ontario Canada
Posts 12
Joined on 09-10-2009

Post #: 10
Post ID: 12640
Reply to: 12636
What is old is new again.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Micro Seiki copies and the power of marketing. Stitch ,PT Barnum knew human nature well ,his legacy is ever so alive and kicking today. 

John reading some of your comments above I thought I add. There is nothing wrong with being a pessimist , many good Americans were once optimists, meet anyone of their finacial advisors.
01-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 11
Post ID: 12642
Reply to: 12640
Living in darkness
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well the marketing power can change dirt into gold, we all know that. I have no problems with manufacturers who offer "such" units. We, the customers (especially here in this Forum) are fixed on the quality of sound. 

Some years ago there was a meeting of some Importers in my area (long ago, and most are out of business), some of them really tried to push the curtain (maybe one reason they didn't survive as Importer), anyway, it was very interesting.

4 from the most expensive ones made a Demo, each of them had their turntable, their Arm of Choice, Cable/Cartridge of choice and Phonostage of choice to make the analog combo as good as possible.

The following chain was identical, all into the same Preamp, Cables, Amp and speakers.
When I remember right, it was Simon Yorke (the most expensive) with Allaerts, Audio Note complete (VERY expensive), Basis Debut with Graham and a Takeda cartridge and I think the last one was Garrard 501 with SME... I forgot the Phonostages but all very serious units (at that time)... playing same record of course.

Anyway, the result was very different, that means, some of them showed a MUCH better performance than others. 

The real interesting experience for me was the reaction from the listeners, totally mixed, those who couldn't afford even the cartridge were the most aggressive ones in their opinion, followed from those who are fixed on "reviews" (What was "in focus" at that time).

I met only a few (probably 5 from 50) who shared my opinion. In the discussion all 5 were record collectors and more or less not interested in Hardware, only in sonic Performance.

The "mass" will always go a different route than the individual. We can't change it.

When some are used to live in darkness and they see a light, they don't trust it.

But it is good to share opinions here.


Kind Regards
Stitch
01-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
misnacat
Ontario Canada
Posts 12
Joined on 09-10-2009

Post #: 12
Post ID: 12645
Reply to: 12642
Annual polar bear hunt & $60,000 turntable
fiogf49gjkf0d
Stitch here in Canada there is drastic change taking place, there are many secrets and unknown facts about Canada, don't ask an American about Canada....Example, No longer is the annual polar bear hunt in Toronto taking place, I miss that,  also putting convicted murders on ice flows has been abolished. Years ago that was Canada's most watched event on TV.
Talk about survival reality shows. The convicts were no match for even a very young polar bear, the colour and drag patterns left on the ice looked the same after a baby seal hunt

Back to the topic......A new turntable manufacture here in Canada of all places is offering direct coupled idler drive turntable with an 80 pound composite platter from $45,000 to $60,000 USD. TTWeights.com

Also they offer turntables for the masses, idler drives from $2,500.00. Good for them and I wish them luck.
01-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
perrew
Posts 30
Joined on 10-06-2009

Post #: 13
Post ID: 12647
Reply to: 12645
DIY TT
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is the most extreme ive seen so far.

http://www.oobject.com/most-extreme-turntables/baasner-turntable/339/
01-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 12648
Reply to: 12647
When I see the crap like this thing…
fiogf49gjkf0d

TT_for_idiots.jpg

....I always visualize that the only person why was able to design something like this was a guy who just returned from a dentist office where he had his tooth pulled but the dentist used blowtorch and was accessing mouth from ass’s sphincter.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Ultimate Turntable..  Versa dynamics...  Analog Playback Forum     184  743529  05-31-2004
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  388867  01-30-2006
  »  New  Dynamic viscose stabilization of turntable’s platter...  Will not work...  Analog Playback Forum     14  69816  11-26-2008
  »  New  Michael Fremer Continuums…..  Pre-manufactured box speaker...  Audio News Forum     54  414779  01-21-2006
  »  New  Prices in High-End Audio...  About the car comparation....  Audio Discussions  Forum     27  93690  07-04-2005
  »  New  A new amplifier from Audio Note...  Re: H Kondo RIP...  Audio News Forum     4  43467  09-15-2005
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