Romy the Cat wrote:

http://www.holgerbarske.com/etf09/album/cg/slides/DSC_0892.html I truly have no idea what this guy is doing. If it is a “new” way to measure the VTF then good luck with that. The Cat

If I recall correctly the Schroder arm has dual magnets for setting the VTF and it cannot be measured correctly with

a usual scale due to some opposite force when the needle sits on the record. This is the idea maybe Im not explaining it perfectly though.

/P

perrew wrote:

If I recall correctly the Schroder arm has dual magnets for setting the VTF and it cannot be measured correctly with a usual scale due to some opposite force when the needle sits on the record. This is the idea maybe Im not explaining it perfectly though.

perrew wrote:

Romy, agree it sounds and looks strange. But the arm works with two magnets, one sitting under the arm/string and the other below it on the base, these two should be parrallel when the VTF is measured and this occurs when the arm is leveled. So if you were to use a normal scale it would have to be level with the record, i.e, the scale must sit beside the record with its plate at exactly the same height as the record itself. Still I dont see why this should be so hard to accomplish, but its the explanation for the fish scale the guy uses in your picture.

bernie_f wrote:

The fundamental "problem" of this arm is, that changing one of the three main parameters (VTA, VTF, damping) changes the two others in small increments too. Can make you crazy if you are a "tweaker" not a "listener"

Romy the Cat wrote:

perrew wrote: Romy, agree it sounds and looks strange. But the arm works with two magnets, one sitting under the arm/string and the other below it on the base, these two should be parrallel when the VTF is measured and this occurs when the arm is leveled. So if you were to use a normal scale it would have to be level with the record, i.e, the scale must sit beside the record with its plate at exactly the same height as the record itself. Still I dont see why this should be so hard to accomplish, but its the explanation for the fish scale the guy uses in your picture. There are other arms the use magnet suspension and it has nothing to do with the way of VTF measurement. With ANY arm, regardless of the design, the right and the only relative VTF measurement is in the height of the record itself. Most of the conventional scales do it. What this guy does is using presumably a spring scale that is very WRONG measuring way to use for cartridges, regardless of the design of tonearms. The spring scale does very roughly measures. The can do VERY precise measure but at precision as you can’t stabilize your hand. also, if you spring is calibrated up to .1g then you can make 3-4 measurements and then your spring is gone out of calibration. So, whatever Frank Schroder does in the picture is a pure show for euro -morons and has nothing to do with what a tonearm need.

bernie_f wrote:

Hi Romy. I completely agree with you regarding the VTA <-> VTF relation on every arm out there (the lever rule also seems to work with tonearms ;-)). Also i agree that if you want the correct absolute measurement of VTF you have to do it on the record level. But we should not forget, that any cartridge has a range of VTF that can be applied without damaging the suspension of the needle. So what i do after mounting a Pickup is to set VTF to the middle of the correct/recomended range and then find the sweet spot by listening to the result and changing in small increments. Then i measure again and take this VTF as my personal reference point for that pickup in case of removing and remounting it (listening to the settings is always the best way for setup). Regarding the relation of applied damping <-> VTF on the Schröders: the damping is applied by changing the distance between the magnet on the base and the magnet on the arm that is hanging from a thin string. The small distance between the two (ca. 0.3mm on average damping) defines the amount of damping that is the result of Foucault currents between the magnets (like the electric brakes on busses or trucks). A change of +/-0.1mm is clearly audible. Bass definiton and the resolution of decays are the things to listen to when adjusting the right ammount (like on conventional arms too). So when you decrease or increase the damping you rise or lower VTA too, but in very, very small margins. Changing the VTA some degrees up or down does almost nothing to damping, since the gap between upper and lower magnet stays the same (because the magnets are in the form of two spoons with a small gap between them). Antiskating by applying some twist to the string holding the armwand. This is done with the screw on the top of the base. On this Photo you can see the construction in detail: http://www.schroeder-tonarme.de/images/TaDPSsemibackview.JPG This arms do work really well. But have to be readjusted from time to time. When the avereage room temperature changes or the average air humidity changes (summer<->winter). This is the result of the string changing some parameters. This will be avoided in the future with new string-fabrics i hope... Thanks Romy for giving us the opportunity to discuss this topics on your fine site... ciao bernie from vienna

I did not invest a lot of time looking into Schröder’s arm. The Schröders make some noise but I know that value of this noise. I was told that Schröder’s arms are promoted by this douchebag from Oswald's Mill and only this single fact is indicative that this arm needs to be broken on half and burned in incinerator. I am not kidding. I do not know what in Frank Schroder’s head but he is in association with Oswald’s Mill – and this is worse than practicing a cannibalism. If Schroder’s arm is distributed by Jonathan Weiss then Schroder’s arm have no sound, users have no common sense in understanding of sound, evaluating design concepts or recognizing the results. What it has a lot however is semi-secretive handshakes, mutual assurances in marketing cronyism, deception and lie, fear of exposure and huge amount of efforts to shape up a fake marketing façade beside empty self-essence. Anything that was touched by Oswald Mill’s dirt has a stamp of Devil, similar to any audio equipment “reviewed” by Michael Fremer.  So, it is no surprise to me that Schröders arms have a number of “questionable features”.

Paul S wrote:

Frank himself will often cut in at this point to head off most of the speculative nonsense.  Not to co- opt him here, but I find it interesting that most of the Schroder arms (sorry, no umlaut...) are particularly subject to VTF changes with minimal changes in VTA/height [adjustment].  OTOH, if one simply must have a VTF system that considers warped records, then Frank will - for substantial extra cash - conture the magnets to give enough "range" of +/- accurate  VTF to allow for some warping.

Absolutely disagree. Why one must have a VTF system that considers warped records? There are no systems in existence that would maintain proper stale VTF when VTA is changed. There are some solutions that apply parabolic VTF force and they can to a degree compensate the VTF while VTA is dynamically changed. However, the efforts to construct a mechanism of none-linear VTF application in most cases defeat the benefiters of VTF stabilization while VTA is change. Do not forget that we construct a whole new FTV mechanism ONLY to play of shitty warped records that shall not be played to begin with. Do you think it worth it? I feel categorically negative about it.

Paul S wrote:

As for "the reference path to ground", most arms have several "paths to ground".  So they must be better than good...

It is incorrect. I do not talk about path to ground in electrical terms.

Paul S wrote:

The main thing for a tonearm to do is to help the cartridge to do its job... and nothing else.  I can think of a couple of arms from each of several designs that might work with a  given cartridge on the right TT.  The rest will have sonic signatures that speak over any and every cartridge used with them.

I think that I would step to anti-Schroder path and would propose that the main thing for a tonearm is to furnish best and STABLE operating condition for a cartridge. A moderation and flexibility of operational parameters during performing of servile is not good thing to have. Take for instance the old Micro turntables. They have own default sound and it is absolutely imposable to change it.  You can place in atop of your bedroom pillows and cover the TT with 3 inch of pigeon shit – the TT still will, play records and demonstrate stunning integrity in sound. I know Micro TT very well but I have no idea what change I can do to make them to sound different – there is just no way to do it- intentionally or accidently.  Then take for instance the Walker Turntables. They are sophisticatedly made but here is what the idiocy of Walker’s hi-fi thinking manifest itself in full throttle. The Walker Turntables have 30374 billion adjustments and each adjustment changes the why how the TT sounds. This is incredibly idiotic notion and an indication not engineering but the amateurism in its worse manifestation.  If what Bernie report is true (and it shall be true if the arm is too much suspended) then what Schröder arms does I finds very annoying (from usability perspective) and very faulty from deign perspective. The only justification for it might be if the arm have own advanced sound in such of operation, but I can’t judge it. Well, considering that is distributed by Oswald’s asshole I actually can judge. I think Mr. Schröder shall have another distribution avenue on south: the Alabama office of Ku Klux Klan would be an excellent chose for Schröder destitution, and then you can ask my back audio folks what they think about the Schröder sound.

Paul S wrote:

I don't travel in these circles now, but I suspect that the top end version of this arm, with a heavy wood wand, the "contured magnet", and the "damping option", will work "fine" with a the "right" cartridge.

It is very hard  to predicted how the arm sound. I have no interest to think about Schröder arm but since this conversation is lasting I will abstract into a dedicated thread

Stitch wrote:

What is the main difference in High End today and 10 years ago? Today it is possible to launch average products into the market via Internet Hype from DIY groups.

Yep, you are spot on. All that you need to sell a dead rat on a stick as some kind of “culinary gourmet revolution” is few vocal cronies on web with “good spelling” and an army of ignorant customers who are craving for a new brawn-track delivered Messiah.

As I said, I have no personal opinion about Schroder arms. I never dealt with it. What you guys report about it do sound ridicules to me but I am know do not believe to “other” people. Furthermore, there are some few elements in audio performance of which I might predict with remarkable accuracy. Tonearms are very much not those elements. Tonearms are very tricky and it hard to say anything. So, do not form any opinion about Schroder tonearm besides my fear of lightly suspended arms. I however looks like VERY accurately predicted that Mr. Schroder association with Jonathan Weiss is very much not accidental. If Mr. Schroder absolutely freely chose that filthy person to present his tonearms in US then it is in my view a significant sign that Mr. Schroder is willing to be associate  with the Weiss-level of audio-expertise and Weiss-level of human ethics. What Schroder did does associate with that shit is self-disqualifying and surprise, surprise. His tonearms reportedly from you guys …. sound accordingly. Invigorating!

It is intresting to me that despite the insane pricing of the Schroder arms, this is yet another case where it seems necessary spend as much as possible to get the best realization of the "key features" that might actually make the arm do what it is "designed to do".  Regarding the final price, who could imagine why Frank does not want to deal directly with High-End Audiophiles, and Lord knows what the middleman's mark-up is.  I doubt Frank is getting rich off this, but if he's doing OK, then good for him.

Romy, you are correct in citing the string as the "ground path", and in the case of the more expensive versions it is a single string/single path.  As for the "rigidity" of this connection, there are knife-bearing arms that are ridgid enough.  In Schroder's case, as one ups the ante the adjustable magnets get more and more powerful, and the  most expensive version gets contoured magnets that keep flux reasonably constant in the gap even when the arm is tracking a less-than-perfectly-flat record.  These magnets line up below the string to provide a +/- damped "connection" that "continues the string through the arm wand", providing the horizontal pivot.  The string actually, physically, terminates well below the arm wand at +/- the plane of the stylus tip to keep the pivot-to-stylus distance constant during tracking, as opposed to variable, as in cases where the vertical pivot is at the plane of the center of the arm wand. Frank claims that magnetic "eddy-currents" generated by the (adjustable, remember) magnets also provide overall arm damping.

Back to the ground path, twisting this same string provides increasing-toward-the-spindle torsion as anti-skating force, similar to how it is done in correctly-installed WT arms (very loaded, as factory-mounted arms on WT ensembles I've seen are incorrect...).  And something that gets no discussion that I've seen or heard is that silicone damping for the string is available (for still more money...).

Perhaps this arm is not good for the 901 or other very stiff cartridges.  I don't know. But I would not be at all surprised if the best version of this arm could be set up to work quite well with the "right" cartridge, if set up by a high-demands, rigorous tweak.

One big problem with evaluating stuff like this is that most of the super-expensive "cult' gear gets bought by well-heeled Morons, which  dims hopes of relevant feedback.  In this case, however, arms are pretty much like cartridges, where you have to just bite the bullet and buy them and then eff with them for weeks or even months to figure out what they can do.  And who has 6k to throw at this thing on a flyer?  Probably not the people most likely to get the most out of the arm.

I would not be surprised if a certain percentage of these arms were purchased as modern art.


Paul S

Paul S wrote:

It is intresting to me that despite the insane pricing of the Schroder arms, this is yet another case where it seems necessary spend as much as possible to get the best realization of the "key features" that might actually make the arm do what it is "designed to do".  Regarding the final price, who could imagine why Frank does not want to deal directly with High-End Audiophiles, and Lord knows what the middleman's mark-up is.  I doubt Frank is getting rich off this, but if he's doing OK, then good for him.

I do not know how “insane” Schroder arms are priced. I have heard that it is $1200 and I have heard $4200, I do not know or care how much exactly. I have no concerns about the mark-up. The cost of the tonearms nowadays is absolutely insane. I have seen arms for 9K and for $12K. The ridicules of those prices is not that they are too-high in absolute numbers but that the prices are absolutely disassociated from benefits and results.

A tonearm that arguably non-surpassable in term of Sound – the SME 3012 – use to cost $1000 years back and… it is ironically costs $1000 today. If one buys an arm that costs 2-3-5-10 times as much then would it add any user benefit to what SME 3012 has already able to do sonically? I am not sure it will. A new arms might offer “new “or updated technology and new topology but they do not really offer more advanced Sound then the 3012 does. Why the people in such case are motivated to pay for the tonearms 3, 4 or 10 times as much as the 3012 cost is beyond my understanding.

berlinta wrote:

People call me after listening to a system with a vinyl front end that included one of my arms. They liked what they heard, that's it. But I don't shy away from direct comparisons to other top contenders.

Frank, how in your view the listening to a system that a person like a person can recognize that it was explicitly tonearm that made the “liking” possible?

I disagree that VTF/VTA balance is critical on warped records. It is possible to handle it in your case by using curved magnet but do not forget that it has also disadvantage on flat records. Let pretend that you play a record with high dynamic range and the vertical acceleration was not consumed by cantilever/coil and got delegated to arm. A normal arm would react but in case of VTF/VTA-lock situation the arm will enter the zone of curved magnet and will try to maintain VTA despite that VTA was not changed. In this case the contra- VTA effort will be just a reaction to vertical acceleration inertia. Also, do not forget that curve magnet to accommodate the VTF/VTA-lock is VERY complicate and need to be done VERY precisely. Even if you have skills and knowledge how to do it then do not forget that the profile of the curve will depend…from the compliance of the given cartridge. So, you change a needle to softer or harder and all your precision of VTF/VTA-locking is out of proper balance, if it ever was in balance. So, I do not see any reason why the VTF/VTA-locking shall be ever enforced.

The most important, Frank, can you comment about alleged comment that your arm do not maintain operation parameters and it sound greatly vary contingent upon environmental conditions? I think if it’s so then it is a major design fault. I understand that some of your users, the Weiss-level retards, do not particularly understand or care that result they are getting. However, I can assure you that there are some LP playing folks out there who are serious about what they do and what they listen.

Frank, I do not see a reason to argue arms. I am not on a market for arm and I am comfortable with the sound I am getting from two of my six arms. I have no motivations or needs to look for other arms. Thankfully I am not in business to sell audio to other and I have no need to convince anybody in anything. I guess it would be a job of the people who use your arm to follow your thought the at DiyAudio.com forum. As I understand you did not read my site and do not know my attitude towards the retards that clustered in there. It is ok.

Are you implying some kind of exclusivity in analog playing? Well, as long as it make you happy then it is fine. This feeling of being special is a good thing, I am glad you enjoy it. What however is peculiar is your association with Jonathan Weiss of Oswald Mills. A person with a microscopic fraction of respect to audio-subjects and elemental human dignity would run that dirt with track. You are in a contrary have a very tight bind with him. Oh, I forget, you are an industry manufacture who sell base upon a cult that has a name “Very few people know…”.  Ironically in this muddy water of cheap exclusiveness (and horrible ignorance) the poison mushrooms of Jonathan Weiss’ consciousness are growing.  I know that you are an industry manufacturer and you are accustomed to kiss other’s dirty asses for publicity and for traffic of your products – that is the rules of engagement. However, there are some limits where your personally draw a line. An association with Oswald Mills is a definition of absolute filth. Be addressed that right after your visit of the Mills, visiting of all your “friends” and associates in there and kissing all of them in asses your friends in private conversations dumped extremely negative and off-putting criticism about each other. This is how all those idiots operate and you are making yourself one of them. Unfortunately I know too precise the true value of that pathetic “brotherhood” and I have no interest to any stink that derive from there. So, your implication of “exclusivity” is not without irony….

Frank, I do not generally participate in the “technical discussions” about the tonearm design I would live it to DIYAudio0type of people. I see no point and no particular interest on the subject. There are multiple reasons why. Not the last of those multiple reasons is that fact that all of those who love to talk big theories about tonearms (turntables, cartridges, tubes, amplifiers, cables etc, etc, etc, etc) are absolutely clueless about sonic results they get out of their creations. There is an army of people who make let say tonearms or turntables today but for some “mysteries” reasons they all do not perform well. You might even agree with me.  I know, I know, you would say that all of your “competitors” are ignorant but you are the special one. Well, I hope you understand that I can bring to a table a number of people who would say the same about themselves, who have no fewer patents then you have, have no less education in the field then you and are able elegantly express verbiage about tonearm design. What does it mean? It means absolutely nothing. All technical discussions are worth no more than any other discussions and serve nothing else that the interests of the people who would like to talk.

You are wrong about me expressing assumptions and opinion rather than facts. They are fact of my experience and if I do not feel need to show off my facts to you then it is only because I have no need to prove anything to you or to whomever out there. From the same perspective any single position you have expressed might be viewed as assumptions and opinion, so what?  So, let separate duties – you will be making tonearms and think how internet discussions help to make tonearms to sound better. I will be using tonearms and think about nature Sound, preferably without bind to tonearms lingo.

Saying, all of it I hope that you noted that I did not pass any specific observations about your tonearms – I have no interest or need. I did hear number of negative feedback from various people about your tonearms. I have to admit that I discard them as much as I discard the stupidly-exuberant comments about your tonearms. In fact drooling conclusion about your products is very much NOT my interest and the main reason is your boyfriend from Oswalds Mill. I do not care how your relationship got developed and who take advantage of who. It is my firm conviction that if you are associated with Oswald’s Mill then you are a bottom of the barrel and  it is my very fundamental judgment.  I do not have hostility toward you I just very sincerity wish any single cretin who deal with Jonathan Weiss to right tomorrow and preferably from a very painful illness. I hope this make my position very clear and would avoid any confusion in your interest to “technical discuss” tonearms.

I hope you to lose your virginity about the subject you are too confident.

Writing anything on this site is akin to playing Russian roulette, which is a real shame as I find Romy's website generally very informative and a fascinating read, although my limited exposure to horn loudspeakers suggests that they might not be for me. This overall good experience is however spoilt by the infantile and sometimes downright abusive attitude that Romy adopts whenever dealers, distributors or manufacturers or anyone involved in making a living out of servicing our interest/hobby/passion/obsession (call it what you will), are mentioned.

True the extent to which our judgement may be clouded when we talk about the stuff that we sell ourselves is always going to be an issue, and that is where an online community where end-users can talk about their gear is invaluable, as long as one approaches everything with the appropriate dose of scepticism.

That should not give anyone the right to pour scorn on an individual just because he is a manufacturer, or heaven forbids, associated with Oswalds Mill Audio. Like Romy, I don't care much about their products, although I do own a slate plinth for a Garrard 401. What I do care about is that Romy's loathing and repulsion for Mr. Weiss, whether justified or not, makes him paint everyone with the same brush. You descend too easily to vulgarity Romy, and too often.

The fact that this is your site is both a curse and a blessing. I find more intelligence and worthwhile knowledge here (see the discussion on The Pacific Microsonic Dac) than pretty much anywhere else, but I despair when rationality takes a backseat when you deliberately set up someone for an unjustified torrent of abuse when the guy in question takes 'pen to paper' AND addresses a whole list of issues that your thread raised.

I owe no loyalty to Frank Shroder, or his tonearms, which if my opinion was asked, I would call overpriced and far too complex in setting up to be of much good to me. Like Romy, I own a couple of SME 3012, which I love, but not to the extent of being blind to the other tonearms, and there are a few, which are superior.

1. I never said that VTF/VTA balance is critical on warped records. I said that if you're record is perfectly flat, you're unlikely to hear the difference between a neutral and a stable balance arm.
On the other hand, if one follows Pierre Lurne's logic of the ideal inertia ellipsoid being a circle, your point is overthrown.

2. The magnets on the SQ bearings are also larger and have a higher energy "content"(N52). A big advantage of this arrangemant is that you can alter VTA to accomodate heavier pressings or records that were cut at different rake angles without having to readjust VTF. And the stability around the longitudinal axis is increased.

3. No, the proper curvature does not depend upon the cart compliance, but on the diameter and strength of the magnets, the dimensions of the soft iron yoke around it, the attachment point of the thread(vs. the COG of the armwand/counterweight assembly) and, last but not least, the mass distribution inside the cart. I usually go for a minimal remaining restoring force(0,05gr VTF change for 5mm VTA change).

4. Many high quality vinyl replay audio components are like cars. You need to feel comfortable with them. Any arm is only as good as the setup(person) allows, it's up to the individual to decide with which arm he achieves the best(constantly satisfying) results.

Romy, the salient points, in my opinion, that were made in Frank's last post, are the ones I have extracted above. As the person who started this character assassination of an individual that you don't know personally, and whose tonearm I believe you have never tried in your own system, I believe you did yourself AND your valuable website a disservice in attacking someone who answered the issues raised succinctly and honestly. I hope Frank forgives your petulant remarks and maybe contributes further to this discussion. It would be nice, if with the apparently limitless means at your disposal, you made a point to try a few other promising tonearms and see how they compare with your very venerable and very delightful SME 3012Rs. You might, or might not, be pleasantly surprised.

Regards