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03-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007
Post #: 1
Post ID: 13162
Reply to: 13162
Engineering over Art
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello Romy, hello all the rest,I want to expand my collection towards romantic standard repertoire, preferrably large orchestra. I am not intending to become an expert, but I have a moronic habit: In order to fully enjoy a performance I need the illusion of sitting in a real concert hall, so labels like the Deutsche Grammophon are taboo for me. Can you tell me labels that have purist stereo recordings and no C-class artists, so I don't do anything completely wrong when ordering a CD or record? Can also be old recordings, I am quite noise-tolerant.Regards,Oliver
03-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 2
Post ID: 13163
Reply to: 13162
So far, you are talking about wrong reasons.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am not sure what you are asking, Oliver.

First of all I do not know what you mean by “illusion of sitting in a real concert hall”. If you are looking for a teleportation illusion then it is fine but it has absolutely nothing to do with musicality, romantic repertoire or class of artists. I would also do not get where Deutsche Gramophone do not feet your bill – they have a huge catalog with incredibly good and incredibly bad recordings.

All together, I do not think that ordering CDs or records using any other motivations then your interest in the given piece of music make any sense. If you would like to extend your exposure to “romantic standard repertoire, preferably large orchestra” then do not look which recording create the “concert hall illusion”. This illusion not a fiction but it is a side-effect, not the primary motivation. If you looking to start then develop a personal interest in a very narrow for beginning and very specific piece of music and then explore how your interest will be polished by different interpretations. In some time, what you know the piece deeply and develop a lot of acquired taste in it then you might play the game observing how different recording techniques or playback techniques would make any difference to the way how the piece is presented to you.

Eventually, if you were successful in your submerge into a single musical piece then you might amply the pattern to diversify your exposure to wider range of music. Still, you personal internal interest and your personal familiarity with musical intend (or many of the near-musical circumstances) shall drive your CD ordering habits, not anything else.  In my view your definition of “do anything completely wrong when ordering a CD” is incorrect at this point and you need to review your whole approach to the subject.

Rgs, Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007
Post #: 3
Post ID: 13164
Reply to: 13163
Deutsche Grammophon
fiogf49gjkf0d
First, I didn't write in one block, probably it has something to do with Google Chrome.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

I would also do not get where Deutsche Gramophone do not feet your bill – they have a huge catalog with incredibly good and incredibly bad recordings.

I know some of their later recordings and I once read an article how they work. And I once read that this Tonmeister thing was already common in the times of Herbert von Karajan.
Can one generally say the "antique" recordings are more purist?

Sorry for not responding to most of your post.
03-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 4
Post ID: 13165
Reply to: 13164
I do not know what to say.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think we have definition of purist recordings. Deutsche Gramophone is a huge company and the recorded zillions of events. At time they were better or worse, at time they recorded brilliantly and at time they recordings vandalized the performances. It is what it is, we have no other recordings of those events, regardless how bad they were recorded, mastered or pressed. That was my point in the post above – if to develop interest in the artistic essence of the performances then the non-perfect audio-recording techniques would bother you much less, if ever.  I know where you are trying to get but I do not feel that it is a fruitful direction.

Yes, older Deutsche Gramophone recorded a bit better but this comment not actionable in my view as many of better re-masters from 90s sound more interesting then the original recordings/pressings from 60s. Still, I would stress again – a good performance of a work makes all or of irrelevant.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007
Post #: 5
Post ID: 13166
Reply to: 13165
Mysterious cat
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, I don't understand you.
Probably few people on this planet have made more effort to get the most out of their technical equipment than you, so I have been wondering for a while why you don't ever talk about the technical aspects of recordings. And now you tell me they are irrelevant?
Very mysterious.
03-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 6
Post ID: 13168
Reply to: 13166
I see nothing mysterious.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 el`Ol wrote:
Romy, I don't understand you.
Probably few people on this planet have made more effort to get the most out of their technical equipment than you, so I have been wondering for a while why you don't ever talk about the technical aspects of recordings. And now you tell me they are irrelevant?
Very mysterious.

I certainly would not deny any technical aspects of recordings. I do discriminate the recordings techniques and recording results. However, since you created the thread in the musical forum of the site and since your intention is to “expand your collection” I do not feel that better recording techniques shall be a guidance for buying any CDs or LPs.

Rgs, The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 7
Post ID: 13169
Reply to: 13168
Grab Bag
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ollie, I know of no "label" that did/does everything right, either musically or technically.  The VERY OLD joke is: Great performance, lousy recording; great recording, lousy performance.  And the truth is that the rarest of rare events is a great recording of a great performance of a great work.  Most labels have some of these rare birds, but most labels also release mostly mediocre to less-than-mediocre fare, IMO.

If you go through the posts in this (Musical Discussions) forum, I think there are quite a few comments on "sound" and/or recording techniques along with the musical discussions.  OTOH, as I write this I realize that "Good Sound" might or might not go along with "good recording techniques", depending on your definition of "Good Sound".

You should certainly own and listen to the Music and Arts version of Furtwangler/BPO performance of Beethoven's 9th, 1943.  If that floats your boat, then you might even re-think your search.

Best regards,
Paul S
03-17-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007
Post #: 8
Post ID: 13172
Reply to: 13169
One CD - two recordings
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul, I agree, I don't have read enough in the music forum to do such a never-ever-statement. Did I expect an extra-thread about recording techniques?

Yesterday again I made such an experience.
I listened to this CD
http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/krzysztof_penderecki/matrix_17__emanationen__partita__cello_concerto__symphony__felicja_blumental__harpsichord__siegfried_palm__cello__polish_radio_symphony_orchestra__london_symphony_orchestra_krzysztof_penderecki_/
which, BTW, is also in the Zeit listing of the records for the new millenium.
http://www.zeit.de/1998/01/111_Platten_fuer_das_naechste_Jahrtausend
After the first three tracks (phantastic recordings with real spacial information done in Katovice) there are three miserable ones done in London. The "Symphony" is really not less interesting as the other pieces, but I stopped the CD because I was tired. It was late, but I am sure I would have continued if the recording quality had kept constant. There was also performing an other orchestra (London Symphonic Orchestra instead of the Polish Radio Symphony Orchestra), but I think it was the engineering, not the art.
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