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02-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 301
Post ID: 9853
Reply to: 9852
More options...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 drdna wrote:
No, when the PP2000 is totally unplugged from the wall (and hence the neutral path which is also grounded is removed), the hum disappears. Then the whole stereo is functioning like some giant battery operated device. This is odd, since it seems to be the AC mains connection that is leading to hum. There is only one path to ground at that point, the neutral path through the AC plug. Is it possible that there is a ground loop problem within the PP2000 creating the hum, which is eliminated when there is no external reference to ground? Or what do you suggest?
I still have no idea what the isolation transformer that you mention does in your system. What I would do next is to lift ground ay the 2000PP input – and then ground the PP2000 to your own ground. Make sure that no other devises on your playback use the main’s ground. When you do so let me know how much AC voltage you have between neutral and ground. BTW, do not open the 2000PP in search of grounds – the unit has other “grounds” internally that are under voltage.
 drdna wrote:
There is only one path to ground at that point, the neutral path through the AC plug.
 
But if you lift the PP2000 output then the path is not thereanymore!!!


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
beachbum
New Orleans area
Posts 16
Joined on 02-19-2009

Post #: 302
Post ID: 9854
Reply to: 9853
Buzz, Hum
fiogf49gjkf0d
On initial installation of my borrowed 1050 i used power cords i have as extras. Did so cause i was still using my BPT for everything but my amps. I had a hum and high pitch buzz from my speakers. Replacing the power cord feeding my amps was the cure. Need the power cord to feed a power strip for amp supply. My front end gear and rack are in the room behind my listening room. A hole in the wall is used to pass the cords. jp if you have not tried this it may be your answer.
Mike


I Think the Volume needs to be Turned Up
02-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 303
Post ID: 9856
Reply to: 9853
Experiment with the PP2000 ground
fiogf49gjkf0d
 beachbum wrote:
Did so cause i was still using my BPT for everything but my amps. I had a hum and high pitch buzz from my speakers. Replacing the power cord feeding my amps was the cure.
There was some mild 60 cycle hum which was eliminated when I lifted the grounds to the amps. They are plugged into the PP2000. Everything is plugged into the PP2000.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
 drdna wrote:
There is only one path to ground at that point, the neutral path through the AC plug.
But if you lift the PP2000 output then the path is not there anymore!
Exactly. Thus, it suggests a ground loop internal to the PP2000, doesn't it?

 Romy the Cat wrote:
 drdna wrote:
No, when the PP2000 is totally unplugged from the wall (and hence the neutral path which is also grounded is removed), the hum disappears.
I still have no idea what the isolation transformer that you mention does in your system.
I am just talking about the transformer for the mains power supply, not an additional device.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
What I would do next is to lift ground at the 2000PP input – and then ground the PP2000 to your own ground. Make sure that no other devises on your playback use the main’s ground. When you do so let me know how much AC voltage you have between neutral and ground.
I did this already; it did not eliminate the buzzing (I will call it buzzing to distinguish it from regular hum). Everything is plugged into the PP2000. There is about 500 mV between the neutral and ground.

Maybe I will need to have the house rewired. It's a pretty old house with only a few three-prong plugs that were put in during a remodel.

Adrian

02-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 304
Post ID: 9859
Reply to: 9856
Least First
fiogf49gjkf0d
Adrian, who knows for sure, given APS "QC" so far, but at this point it still sounds like something you could deal with by properly configuring your various component grounds, lifting and/or bleeding components (3rd wire only) via the dedicated rod.

Rewire the house?!?  But you never mentioned this before.  Do you at least have a dedicated 15 amp circuit for the hi-fi?  As I understand it, only the PP2000 should be plugged directly into this circuit, and all hi-fi componnets should be pkugged only into the PP2000, either directly or via a neutral power strip, such as the Juice Bar or Eichmann.

Any dedicated hi-fi AC line should run unbroken all the way back to the main service box.  If it goes to a sub-panel, be sure that the sub-panel has separate neutral and ground busses (not many do...)  and that neutral and ground wires are connected only to their respective  busses in the sub-panel box.

I have run into many situations where neutral and ground wires and busses were mixed and matched at sub panels, and this can result in some very dirty neutral/ground wires throughout the house.  This would be the first place to look if even thinking about "re-wiring the house".

Best regards,
Paul S
02-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 305
Post ID: 9862
Reply to: 9856
Seek and it will be given to you.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 drdna wrote:
Exactly. Thus, it suggests a ground loop internal to the PP2000, doesn't it?


In my view it is highly unlikely as a definition of loop itself implies two contacts to ground and PP2000 has only one.  I do not think that you will go anywhere with accusing the PP2000 in humming. If the PP2000 has zero point zero Ohm from input to out grounds, the 500 mV between the neutral and ground and output no DC then I think it is absolutely out of blame. Might be I am wrong but only by the fact that you have the hum it is self-evident to me that you have ANOTHER, additional to the PP2000, path to ground from your system. It has nothing to do with your need of house rewiring and it has nothing to do with quality of wires – it is just a second path that you need to found. You are multi-amping with the refrigerator subs runs own SS amps. If your refrigerator amps and your horn amps referenced to deterrent power grounds then here is a perfect loop for you as they are most likely have single-connectors and this signal grounds are connected via RCA jacks. It is very difficult to trace the ground look without being there but I do feel that it is your loop. If your PP2000 is completely broken then where do you see in it a SECOND path to ANOTHER ground? So, I think that it is externals problem.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 306
Post ID: 9866
Reply to: 9856
Buzz-kill revisited
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy wrote :

"...What I would do next is to lift ground at the 2000PP input – and then ground the PP2000 to your own ground. Make sure that no other devises on your playback use the main’s ground..."

drdna wrote :

"...I did this already; it did not eliminate the buzzing. Everything is plugged into the PP2000..."

Be sure to connect the chassis of only ONE audio component to the dedicated ground, allowing the other audio components to source ground via the interconnects. If you connect the chassis of each audio component to a dedicated ground, you will have several loops (sketch it out on paper to see what I mean).

The other way around this is to make interconnects that do not pass ground between components, and to source ground via the power cord and dedicated ground of the PP2000. This is safer, because components remain grounded in the event they are powered up when not connected (via an interconnect) to the rest of the system.

Before rewiring a house, you might consider making a quick dedicated test line as follows :

Buy a length of flexible (stranded) large-section 2 or 3 conductor insolated cable, long enough to reach from the main panel to the PP2000 (run it in and out windows if necessary; this is just a test) ; if such a cable is not easily available, buy a long, heavy-duty extension cord.

At the main panel, install a new 20 Amp breaker (or fuse holder in the case of an old house). Connect only the hot and neutral wires to this new breaker, leaving the ground wire disconnected. (If using an extension cord, cut off the male plug connector and strip wires as necessary).

Connect the hot and neutral wires at other end of the cable to the PP2000, still ignoring the ground wire. Ground the chassis of the PP2000 directly to a dedicated ground (water pipe, copper rod driven into the earth etc.).

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
02-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 307
Post ID: 9869
Reply to: 9866
How ground is done in my playback.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Be sure to connect the chassis of only ONE audio component to the dedicated ground, allowing the other audio components to source ground via the interconnects.

I am very convinced that in Adrian case he has more than one path from his components to ground, the whole definition of “LOOP” suggest that it is NOT only via the PP2000 the system has ground reference. The fact that Adrian lifts ground on power amps and it changes hum only proves the point: in his amps the middle ground wire of the power cords apparently is connected to the amp chasses, which is how all committal amps are done. 

I hate that connection pattern even though it is the most secured from a perspective of faults.  In ALL my equipments I discount the middle ground wire of the power cords from chasses of my equipment where the chasses are connected to the negative terminals of my single-ended RCA connectors. So, my entire playback runs with grounds connected via negative terminals of RCA connectors and all RCAs lead my 11 input Placette preamp. The Placette connection deck acts as main negative bass terminal and the power cable from Placette to power source (would it be a wall of PP2000 or whatever)  is THE ONLY one my reference to ground. I might run Placette power to the power source with all 3 pins or lift ground on the Placette and use the grounding post (on the back of the Placette) connect it to my own custom ground. So far I concluded that to use PP2000’s ground (effectively the wall ground) is preferable for me (better imaging) then to use my own private ground.

Anyhow, what I important in this whoa story is that I have the only one element of my playback connected to ground. If I lift the ground on my Placette then my playback has no reverence to ground of any kind and I did run very successfully my playback for a while with 150V on playback’s ground.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=6552

It is not what I advise to do but it is an indication that the while system of mine (19 components) is completely floating above any ground if it necessary. So, ground if from a main point is an assurance that it will not be any ground loops.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 308
Post ID: 9872
Reply to: 9862
Totally floating grounds
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

 drdna wrote:
Exactly. Thus, it suggests a ground loop internal to the PP2000, doesn't it?


In my view it is highly unlikely as a definition of loop itself implies two contacts to ground and PP2000 has only one.  I do not think that you will go anywhere with accusing the PP2000 in humming. If the PP2000 has zero point zero Ohm from input to out grounds, the 500 mV between the neutral and ground and output no DC then I think it is absolutely out of blame. Might be I am wrong but only by the fact that you have the hum it is self-evident to me that you have ANOTHER, additional to the PP2000, path to ground from your system. It has nothing to do with your need of house rewiring and it has nothing to do with quality of wires – it is just a second path that you need to found. You are multi-amping with the refrigerator subs runs own SS amps. If your refrigerator amps and your horn amps referenced to deterrent power grounds then here is a perfect loop for you as they are most likely have single-connectors and this signal grounds are connected via RCA jacks. It is very difficult to trace the ground look without being there but I do feel that it is your loop. If your PP2000 is completely broken then where do you see in it a SECOND path to ANOTHER ground? So, I think that it is externals problem.

The Cat
Yes, but:

1. The buzz was not present before the PP2000 was introduced.
2. When the PP2000 is unplugged, all components are linked to a "ground" via the PP2000, acting as a battery powered system.
3. When the PP2000 is plugged in, the neutral AC connection adds an additional ground reference.
4. ALL the amplifiers, all the components are plugged into the PP2000. Nothing is plugged into a separate outlet.
5. Even with all the grounds lifted on all the components, the buzz is still there. Only unplugging the PP2000 eliminates it.

Adrian
02-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 309
Post ID: 9874
Reply to: 9869
Reference to Ground
fiogf49gjkf0d
It is confusing, but the NEUTRAL is not only "referenced to ground", but in properly-designed components it is THE reference to ground.  Too bad most commercial hi-fi gear splits any and all grounding, at any point in any circuit, between the neutral and the 3rd, or "ground" wire.  The 3rd wire is supposed to be there only as a fail safe, to bleed off stray current that is "not supposed to be there".  Unfortunately, there are innumerable ways for current to find and use any extra path to ground, and new routes too often include signal paths or PS modulation.

If the PP2000 is a 120V device with a 3-prong plug, then it has 2 references to ground within its chassis, depending on how it is configured, and thus it MIGHT be possible for it to contribute to a ground loop or loops.  How it winds up using either or both ground connections will be determined not only by its internal configuration but also by the configurations of each and every piece hooked up to it, along with the ultimate configuration of the super-circuit this creates.

It is no wonder that hum threads are many and long at various hi-fi boards.  Sourcing and rooting out ground faults is a Royal PITA.  The general idea is to get ground reference low, at just one point.  Good Luck with that.  The reality is that many systems can effectively benefit from some careful bleeding via another very low impedance ground connection.

Paul S
02-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 310
Post ID: 9875
Reply to: 9872
I seriously doubt.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 drdna wrote:
3. When the PP2000 is plugged in, the neutral AC connection adds an additional ground reference.
Adrian, if you make such an assumption than it was why I advised you do not plug all your components into PP20000 but to plug all your components into a power strip and then to plug your power strip I not ONE out of PP20000. My rational was is that if the PP20000 introduce some kind of differences of ground potential between the outlet number 1 and outlet number 5 (that I SERIOUSLY doubt but if it is the case then it would constitute a faulty unit) then using just one outlet you will not have this problem. You absolutely shall not have any hum if you have one amp running from one PP20000’s outlet.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 311
Post ID: 9878
Reply to: 9875
PP2000 picking up noise from the grid?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Considering that PP2000 isn't plugged into a dedicated line and that line can be shared by other electric devices plugged into the grid, I wonder if the hum noise is getting into the PP2000 not from the ground wire, but the neutral wire for some defect in other device. Maybe leaving the system on playing music which allows hearing the hum, and making a ride all over the house unplugging electric devices and switching off lights discovers the cause.
02-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 312
Post ID: 9879
Reply to: 9875
Internal ground loop in PP2000?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
It is confusing, but the NEUTRAL is not only "referenced to ground", but in properly-designed components it is THE ground. If the PP2000 is a 120V device with a 3-prong plug, then it has 2 references to ground within its chassis, depending on how it is configured, and thus it MIGHT be possible for it to contribute to a ground loop or loops. How it winds up using either or both ground connections will be determined not only by its internal configuration but also by the configurations of each and every piece hooked up to it, along with the ultimate configuration of the super-circuit this creates
Exactly.

 Antonio J. wrote:
Considering that PP2000 isn't plugged into a dedicated line and that line can be shared by other electric devices plugged into the grid, I wonder if the hum noise is getting into the PP2000 not from the ground wire, but the neutral wire for some defect in other device. Maybe leaving the system on playing music which allows hearing the hum, and making a ride all over the house unplugging electric devices and switching off lights discovers the cause.
This would be disturbing, because this is exactly what the PP2000 is supposed to cure, isn’t it?

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I advised you do not plug all your components into PP20000 but to plug all your components into a power strip and then to plug your power strip I not ONE out of PP20000. My rational was is that if the PP20000 introduce some kind of differences of ground potential between the outlet number 1 and outlet number 5 (that I SERIOUSLY doubt but if it is the case then it would constitute a faulty unit) then using just one outlet you will not have this problem.
That is a thought; I will try that.

It is interesting to note that even though there is this buzz, I still consider the PP2000 to be a success. To me the buzz is like the clicks and pops on an old record. It can be annoying at some point, but it does not change what piece was recorded or what musicians were performing it. And overall, the improvement to the ability to deliver the Sound is improved.

Adrian

02-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 313
Post ID: 9880
Reply to: 9879
Maybe it cannot do magic
fiogf49gjkf0d
 drdna wrote:


 Antonio J. wrote:
Considering that PP2000 isn't plugged into a dedicated line and that line can be shared by other electric devices plugged into the grid, I wonder if the hum noise is getting into the PP2000 not from the ground wire, but the neutral wire for some defect in other device. Maybe leaving the system on playing music which allows hearing the hum, and making a ride all over the house unplugging electric devices and switching off lights discovers the cause.
This would be disturbing, because this is exactly what the PP2000 is supposed to cure, isn’t it?
....

It is interesting to note that even though there is this buzz, I still consider the PP2000 to be a success. To me the buzz is like the clicks and pops on an old record. It can be annoying at some point, but it does not change what piece was recorded or what musicians were performing it. And overall, the improvement to the ability to deliver the Sound is improved.

Adrian



It's not that easy getting rid of a hum induced in the grid by another device far away, if it's caused for a neutral-ground derivation. I guess the PP centers its efforts in cleaning the active line.
I once lived in a house, in which despite its completely refurbished power lines, breakers and all, it had a strange derivation of 30VAC between neutral and ground. Nothing I tried could cure it, nor seemed the responsible was a device in my house. Funnily enough some devices seemed to be really pissed for it (a CD-R recording machine got fried, and every replacement model they gave me suffered the same fate), others not even humed and others just showed different degrees of hum. I learned to live with it...
02-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 314
Post ID: 9881
Reply to: 9880
Dimming Hopes
fiogf49gjkf0d
"Success" equals better except for added hum?  How lucky is APS to have customers like this?!?

Any dimmer switches within a mile and a half of the system?  Any variable inductors connected anywhere in the house?  Root out anything like this, just for starters.  Since the system did not hum before, I remain hopeful that the "proper" ground configuration will eliminate the new-found hum.  I have always had to reconfigure my ground(s) after I move into a new house (ie., same equipment, different configuration).  It still sounds like something eoither wants bleeding or something like a cable sleeve should be lifted from a chassis that now makes it redundant.

Does PP2000 manual say anything about lifting its ground?

Best regards,
Paul S
02-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 315
Post ID: 9882
Reply to: 9881
Good except the humming
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
"Success" equals better except for added hum?
Well, I am sure I can get rid of the hum, so then it will be all good. In fact, I know I can do that just be unplugging the PP2000. That is not an optimal solution of course.

 Paul S wrote:
Any dimmer switches within a mile and a half of the system? Any variable inductors connected anywhere in the house?
Oh, yes, lots of them. And there had been a major construction project going on right next door, with all sorts of equipment running all the time.

 Paul S wrote:
Since the system did not hum before, I remain hopeful that the "proper" ground configuration will eliminate the new-found hum.
Well, it sounds like ground loop hum, so I still think I just have to trace it out. I am not overly concerned.

 Paul S wrote:
It still sounds like something either wants bleeding or something like a cable sleeve should be lifted from a chassis that now makes it redundant.
I did have to replace a pair of interconnects that got pulled apart when I was moving the heavy PP2000 into position. That might be something to look at, since it is also a change in the system, albeit to an old pair of interconnects I had lying around.

 Paul S wrote:
Does PP2000 manual say anything about lifting its ground?
I believe it says not to do it.

Adrian
02-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
beachbum
New Orleans area
Posts 16
Joined on 02-19-2009

Post #: 316
Post ID: 9917
Reply to: 9882
Installed my PP 2000 today
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well got my very hefty piece APS PP 2000 today. This item is well packaged and weighs in at over 70 lps. You could pull something if your not careful positioning 2000 in your rack. Glad i have my Audiav Crystal rack for this behometh. My loaned 1050 had the additional battery pack. This unit has battery backup included within a single unit. I will consider getting a additional battery pack as going all battery is i another step up for good sound IMO.
Right out of the box the 2000 is powering my system and delivering sensational sound right off the bat. I'm sure that differences will occur until full breakin is had. I am not going to complain about what i am hearing now though the James Cottons band is laying it down the Blues. And i aint gotem dats for sure. Just a O happy day.



I Think the Volume needs to be Turned Up
03-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 317
Post ID: 10085
Reply to: 9235
Good news from APS
fiogf49gjkf0d

Spoke last night with PurePower people and have good news.

First, after the “agonizing research efforts” (satire) the APS have discovered that source of fuzziness that I reported above and claim that they have a very simple fix that would not require shipping the unit and can be easily performed on a file by an average Moron. That is good but it needs to be verified that it would not kill the Sound.

Second, it is possible that the serial port that that PurePower unit has on the back would be able to turn the unit on and off from PC. If so then I will writhe up a simple telnet window application (I will make is available for whoever interested) and I will be all set with my frustration of remote recording.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 318
Post ID: 10088
Reply to: 10085
Mk II, SE Now Shipping
fiogf49gjkf0d
...following a glowing preview by Mark Mickelson?

Well, it's good that APS have taken some time off filling orders to trouble shoot.  Since they obviously read this forum, did they also address the pulse breakthrough or hum issues raised here?

Adrian, may I assume that if your unit was finally sorted out, then you would have said as much by now?

Best regards,
Paul S
03-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
beachbum
New Orleans area
Posts 16
Joined on 02-19-2009

Post #: 319
Post ID: 10090
Reply to: 10088
Slight fuzzy sound
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello all i must have missed the subject line with pp2000 noise i have not noticed any hiss at all from all inputs except my phono amp. Whats the problem and fix?
Thanks
Mike


I Think the Volume needs to be Turned Up
03-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 320
Post ID: 10092
Reply to: 10088
PP2000 noise issue
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
Adrian, may I assume that if your unit was finally sorted out, then you would have said as much by now?
The issue is unresolved. The unit still emits a buzzing sound when it is plugged in. I have sent a few e-mails to APS over the past month, but I have never received any reply from them. It seems they don't care once they get your money.

Adrian
03-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jp
Posts 39
Joined on 02-25-2006

Post #: 321
Post ID: 10093
Reply to: 10092
APS Contact
fiogf49gjkf0d
Its much easier to get them on the phone.  Apparently, they are working on my issue, which is similar to yours.
03-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 322
Post ID: 10097
Reply to: 10093
The Purepower’s things
fiogf49gjkf0d

Well, dealing with Purepower I think it worth to understand the APS specific. They did not impress me as an engendering shop but rather they are the long-ceremony type of operation. It is not that you comment on some kind of problem on the field and then you have a guy with skills and tools on the APS side confirm the problem and provide a solution. OI did not see it in APS. From what I saw they are slow to recognize the problems and incredibly slow to react to problems. I did not see in them that “grab money and run” attitude at all.  It is understandable as they looks like do not have engendering recourses or manufacturing facilities on site and as I feel the plant the makes the Purepower generators in China does not feel that APS is the most valuable client of them. Most likely it is a very large electronic producing company in China with a lot of manufacturing inertia and APS production is just a little pimple among their production.

So, the APS interprets complains how they can, and soon or later they schedules to implement the solutions in the production runs that might e coming… next year or so. Yes, it is not very transparent operation. Add to it a relatively superficial QA from APS and you get the picture.

However, it shall not be noted that the ASP-type regenerators has some added support complexity. It is not PS Audio PowerPlant that is less sensitive to load and not Avicenna that is absolutely insensitive to load. The class D regenerator is all about the load and the reaction of the regenerator to the load. So, the APS people have much more variables to deal with in support then one might imagine.

Interesting to note that I know a few installations that use the last revision of PPP2000. Some people do report that they experience one of another type of problem. I personally have zero problems and none of the effects that Adrian, JP and other report. We do have the same vintage of regenerators, so there are possibilities:

1)      My and your PP200 are in fact NOT the same

2)      There is something in my and you systems that make PP2000 to operate differently in my and your case.

I do not know the answers and frankly since I have none of the problems I do not particularly care to learn how to get one. If you do have problems then I would suggest taking a bit more proactive position then just a send then a few emails. You need to call them, call them again and to demand a satisfaction. Since you do not ask for anything else then a proper operation of your units then I do not call it harassment but rather your desire to get what you shell be given. I did not detect that APS people were overly frustrated with my complains or concerns as they were always back up with facts and they always engaged in the conversation about the problems. The result is different thing – you might wait but at least you have a record that you did complained during your warranty and you have a promises that it will be addressed in a week, month or year – the due date will be blown but they will sloooooowlwy look into the problems. Do call them again and remind that the problems are still not resolved, after all you need to address the problem more then they need to do it.

What I think APS need at this point is some kind of official public position regarding to what they do and a public knowledge based facility what user would self-debug own problems. I think they need to put a collaborative site out with support forum and KB. It would address all concerns and would prevent people runs across the various sites and to pick rumors. I have no idea why APS did not take yet as official stand regarding the stability of own products.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 323
Post ID: 10099
Reply to: 10097
What? They're Not Assembeld at MIT by Post-Docs?!?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Yes, of course.  And since we are supposed to be educated and sophistocated people here, you might thnk we'd have recognized and prepared for all this ourselves, before forking over $3k for "results".

But the Fact is that many of us are so sick of the Bad Electricity Problem that we have gone soft on the idea of an easy fix, despite strong evidence to the contrary.  Furthermore, APS knows it, and they work the angle, just like all the other sheisters.

Although I have [barely] managed to restrain myself from sending them money so far, I have done some reconnoissance.  Just from talking to them and from the steady negative feedback, I know that APS are far more concerned with marketing, selling, producing and shipping units than they are with anything as abstract as actually solving the BEP on any tangible level, as far as any given end user might be concerned.  Ironically, you might have a better chance getting hum fixed than you would getting the thing to correct BEP, if that turns out to be a problem at any point.

As to how long it might take them to make good on problems in "the field", I am guessing they will start getting around to that if they think it's hurting (or threatening) the bottom line, IF they still have the capital reserves at that time to launch a rescue mission.  Again: this is where the Mk II, SE usually comes in...

Best case in terms of "intentions", the concern is always that they will "intend" to address problems for a while, then just give up when it finally becomes ovrwhelming.

And there is really no sense in citing "customer satisfaction" as proof of QC (QA, these days, I suppose), since the broad swath of their market will always be Morons, anyway.  They either have it in them to do it right, or they are incompetent fuck-ups; or they are pirates.

Paul S

03-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 324
Post ID: 10146
Reply to: 10099
PP2000 update
fiogf49gjkf0d
After many unanswered e-mails, I got word from APS today, who said they have had a few customers with similar issues and that it seems to be system dependent. However, they also said that they were working on a way to fix this that they might have in as soon as a few weeks and that they will not charge anything to any customers to make the necessary corrections. Well, okay, we will see.

Adrian
03-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 325
Post ID: 10148
Reply to: 10146
The fuzzy system-dependent explanation - I do not like it.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 drdna wrote:
After many unanswered e-mails, I got word from APS today, who said they have had a few customers with similar issues and that it seems to be system dependent. However, they also said that they were working on a way to fix this that they might have in as soon as a few weeks and that they will not charge anything to any customers to make the necessary corrections. Well, okay, we will see.
Actually I do not find it as satisfying answer and I am surprised you do not ask them more. The system-dependent explanation is NOT an explanation at all. If the regenerator does not run DC and has virtually null between ground and neutral then the regenerator is fine. The system-dependent explanation explains nothing unless very precise specifics of you system that was allegedly responsible for the problem was identified and named. If they say something like this for example: “the noise of 60Hz was is due to your system have an impulse power supply in one of your load” then the system-dependence makes sense. However, if they use the system-dependent justification but without naming the dependence from something very specific then this explanation is absolutely bogus. This explanation is as absurd as us the word “synergy” for components matching - it gives an illusion and justifies the problem but serves no useful idea for system building. Anyhow, I hope APS or you will name what specific attribute of your particular playback was responsible for the noise. I have no noise of any kind now but does it mean that if I add one more component with not favorable PS then my system-dependency will turn to negative? I need to know what the problem is and if the people who do not have the problem NOW need to pay attention and to implement the fix that might prevent the future prospective noises.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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