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02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
floobydust


currently roaming the US
Posts 62
Joined on 01-19-2009

Post #: 276
Post ID: 9817
Reply to: 9815
Line (grid) Power, waveform symmetry and THD
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Power from the company grid is usually pretty decent in most respects, or at least it used to be. In the last 25 years or so the average home has seen an increasing number of devices which have switching power supplies (computers, monitors, etc.) which are anything but a uniform load on the AC power. The amount of "dirt" that these devices can create (noise, distortion, RF, etc.) on the line can get pretty bad. Worse yet, many convenient end-user devices impose modulated RF on the power line for communications, which includes low-bandwidth networking, non-wired intercoms and more. The point being, that the average home and it's diverse devices probably contribute more distortion to the power line than anything coming in from the grid. Multiply this by all of the houses fed from the grid and various distortion components become significant.

 The PP2000 is nothing new in concept. 30 years ago we referred to such a device as a "True" UPS, as there was no switchover but an AC to DC supply which kept a bank of batteries topped up which in turn fed a DC to AC inverter which powered the equipment (generally large computer systems). One specification that is not listed in any of the (PP2000) documentation is the THD rating. Audio equipment still uses THD as a measurement to declare a known operating parameter. It would seem only logical that the amount of distortion of the sine-wave power driving the equipment would have some effect if it gets too high. How high it too high? I doubt anyone has done much research on this and I'm certain it would vary quite a bit between different pieces of equipment.

 There are other devices out there that provide line regulation and low THD as well. There are CVS transformers (Sola and others make these), fancy servo-controlled variac based units and of course high-quality sine-wave inverters which are common in remote battery and solar power systems available today. All of these devices are designed to supplement and/or replace grid systems and THD is a measured and published specification. Most of the larger systems are rated at less than 5% and some of the better (albeit smaller) units publish typical THD values of 1.5% to 2.0% as a maximum.

 Before I would invest in a PP2000, I would perform some measurements on the grid power to see how bad it really is. I would be inclined to put a more robust and usable power system in with commercial gear and run a few extra dedicated and shielded lines for the audio gear. In the event of a larger power losss (somehow common in South Florida) it would certainly be more useful and the accuracy of the sinewave power would be well known. I could also listen to music when the rest of the neighborhood is dark... and make an espresso as well.

 Regards, KM



... just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not after you ...
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 277
Post ID: 9818
Reply to: 9817
The not sufficient definition of 'good for sound electricity'.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Floobydust,

I very much disagree with you on it, not because I have an alternative view but because I have practical evidences that what you say is not sufficient definition of “good for sound electricity”. The lower THD is not adequate representation and there are many examples of very low, fractions of present distortions and consequentially a perfect since, built not satisfactory sonic results. Reversely I have expense the good electricity days with about 5% distortions and sinusoid looking like a railway after nuclear blast.  I do have a large collection of varicose devises that I was employing to fight electricity over the years and I need to report that it is not as simple and predicable as you say. The PP2000 is certainly nothing new in nether concept not in implementation. However, among what I experienced PP2000 is very much new in results. If you can name me another available power devise or tested  and rendered implementation principle that might help to eliminating those subjective negative effects of bad electricity but do not affects the core sound of played material then I would be only grateful for learning about it and would gladly try it.  I am sure we understand that it is very much not about PP2000, I would gladly do not have it if I know HOW to deal with bad electricity myself. The problem is that I do not know. That, BTW, why I created the following thread:

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=9623

Rgs, Romy the Cat

BTW: the waveform symmetry is the same as THD....


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
floobydust


currently roaming the US
Posts 62
Joined on 01-19-2009

Post #: 278
Post ID: 9820
Reply to: 9818
It's not the device.....
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

 Sorry if my post lead you to think I was dinging the PP2000... that wasn't the point, and I wasn't. I'm simply saying that while the PP2000 resolves problems with the purity of the AC power, it's one solution. It is effective in it's implementation but is packaged and used as an "appliance". There's nothing wrong with that. I was mainly pointing out that there are other available solutions for clean power as well. For myself, I would prefer something more universal and not another piece of gear sitting in the stack.

 Regards, KM



... just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not after you ...
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 279
Post ID: 9821
Reply to: 9820
What is relevant and what is irrelevant
fiogf49gjkf0d

Floobydust,

and this is exactly why I ask what “other available solutions for clean power” do the job but do not “hurt” sound. The reason why I ask is because if I know, let say 3-4 devises, of the different designs that do the “electricity cure” with no “hurt”  then it would be possible (I hope!!!) to abstract so kind of a  common denominator between them and to learn what actually cures the power supplies and what is irrelevant.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
floobydust


currently roaming the US
Posts 62
Joined on 01-19-2009

Post #: 280
Post ID: 9823
Reply to: 9821
The same path?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 I think we're on the same path... maybe from opposite directions. I agree that if one can identify multiple devices that provide clean power without impacting the sound quality then thru some level of analysis one could hope to determine what factor(s) effect the power the most or least.

 Without trying to make it a trivial task, the AC power has but a few simple parameters: 1- voltage, 2- frequency and 3- waveform. If you can correctly manage the 3 and eliminate anything that is not part of the 3 parameters, in theory you have perfect power.

 Of course, this is more difficult in practice. Regulating voltage is not rocket science, but to what degree of regulation is acceptable and furthermore, what effect does transient load changes have on the voltage output and waveform. As transients could be much shorter than a single waveform duration, how immune is the power source from waveform distortion due to transient conditions in the load? As the load can be highly inductive, how immune is the power source to this behavior? Needless to say, it can become quite a difficult challenge and mixing the types of loads you put on the power source also creates cumulative problems based on how they load the line.

 I do feel that other solutions would have to exist.... finding them becomes both difficult and expensive not to mention time consuming. On the flip side, I would tend to think that pure linear supplies (in end-user equipment) create less of a problem for loading a power source. Their impact (by design) is against the entire waveform unlike digital supplies which only affect a portion of the waveform. In mixed mode cases, you may find one device works better than another.

 I won't pretend to have the answers, but it is one area of audio that I've thought about quite a bit over the years... more now than ever as power companies are less consistent in controlling the basic parameters of the power delivered to your home.

 Regards, KM



... just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not after you ...
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 281
Post ID: 9826
Reply to: 9823
Good Electricity = an endless placid sea
fiogf49gjkf0d
 floobydust wrote:
one can identify multiple devices that provide clean power without impacting the sound quality then thru some level of analysis
Yes, the "analysis" is called listening. Smile

 floobydust wrote:
what effect do transient load changes have on the voltage output and waveform...
I believe the Avicenna experiment demonstrated that this approach is important but insufficient.

 floobydust wrote:
AC power has but a few simple parameters: 1- voltage, 2- frequency and 3- waveform.
This oversimplification entirely ignores the distribution of energy levels within the population of electrons, entanglements between electrons, and other quantum effects. I will say again that these effects may be more important than you think. In electrical devices, electrons pass through endless physical striations, laminations, loops, coils, etc. in all the multi-stranded, polycrystalline wires, inductors, capacitors, coils, wirewounds, etc. Microfluctuations due to nonhomogeneity in the distribution may for example lead to irregularities in the resultant electromagnetic fields which in turn lead to irregularity in electron flow.

Okay. Let me give you an analogy. Let's say to poach an egg, I say to put an egg in one liter of 90 degree water for 5 minutes. The parameters are volume, average temperature and time. Now, in Case #1, the water is brought to boiling and allowed to cool to 90 degrees uniformly. The egg is gently slid into the water with a slotted spoon and let to sit undisturbed for five minutes. Now in Case #2, the egg is gently slid into the pot, covered with 100 ml of crushed ice for one minute and then exposed to 900 ml of jets of superheated steam for four minutes. It can be done such that volume, average temperature and time are equivalent in both cases. However, the results for the egg will not be the same.

Making good electricity is like poaching an egg. I said this when the Avicenna experiment was done, and I repeat it now.

Adrian

02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
beachbum
New Orleans area
Posts 16
Joined on 02-19-2009

Post #: 282
Post ID: 9827
Reply to: 9826
Good power equals good sound
fiogf49gjkf0d
By far the addition of this device has made serious improvement to what my ears are hearing. I know there a lot of technical reasons for good or bad power values in the area of power line gear for our stereo systems. In my case i'm letting my ears decide whats better. Like i said above using my dedicated lines and previous line repair gear i was getting good sound from my system. The addition of the early edition 1050 made that good sound even better to my ears which are the only factor that matters to me. I'm in the elevator repair field and spend a good amount of time dealing with electricity and know its factors. Also i should say the person who lent me the 1050 is in the power line audio manufacture business himself. I respect his thoughts on this also. And hes still not getting his 1050 back until i get my 2000. I hope that the difference in the two is not going to be a factor in what i am hearing now in my system improving on whats playing now would be OK though.

BTW this is some fine discussion and i am enjoying the replies Thanks  all
Mike


I Think the Volume needs to be Turned Up
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
floobydust


currently roaming the US
Posts 62
Joined on 01-19-2009

Post #: 283
Post ID: 9828
Reply to: 9826
Incomplete sentences
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Adrian,

 All of the quotes you took above are incomplete and become out of context with your replies (that's cheeky). Still, I'll give you  terse reply.

 If listening is your only analysis tool, then I would place little faith in the outcome. Human error based on mood, physical and emotional condition (sleep, time of day, etc.) makes this far too subjective. I'll be the first to admit measurements aren't everything, and I'll also be the first to state that using nothing but your ears is no better.

 As for what effects to measure, it should be clear that this snippet is just that, a snippet. There are many additional points to consider, I listed but a handful as examples.

 I started saying the 3 parameters were an oversimplification and that would only be correct "in theory". I also went on to say that in practice it would not be so simple.

 Finally, I don't like poached eggs.... make them anyway you like, you can eat them.

 Regards, KM



... just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not after you ...
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 284
Post ID: 9830
Reply to: 9828
Flogiston
fiogf49gjkf0d
We are presently in a situation where we realize that the sound we get from our hi-fis is influenced by the electricity the systems are fed.  There has been a lot of hypothesizing and voodoo in coming up with "solutions" for the various quantifiable variables presently assocociated with source electricity.  So far, the Cat has only found one "product" he could adapt to get consistently acceptable sound from his hi-fi, assuming it is the "electricity" that has been "improved".  But, who cares, really, since we accept the results and go on from there.

I may as well say that I only care about how such products work in order to try pre-screen them.  Also, I don't really care if I achieve "success" via plug-and-play or via simple adaptations of a given product.  In other words, the "manufacturers" all seem to be totally insane, and not likely to get better any time soon.

Since I have had some runs with Good Electricity, I have TRIED to tailor my system around them while leaving some wiggle room I can use to adjust things for less-than-good power.  Still, I quite suspect that consistently good electricity - should I ever obtain it - will merely be passage to another, uncharted sea that will require the usual re-thinking of any number of aspects of my present, based-on-crappy-electricity, system.

I bid Good Luck (and Good Night) to anyone who is especially content with the good electricity, in and of itself, and I dismiss anything like object worship of any product.  It's a hunk of metal, boys, that's all; and if APS are not lucky clowns, then they may not be good people.  Caveat.

Paul S
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jp
Posts 39
Joined on 02-25-2006

Post #: 285
Post ID: 9833
Reply to: 9795
Buzz, Hum
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello everyone, Ive had this unit up and running for about a month now and I have the same problem as Adrian.  There is a noticeable everpresent buzz that wasn't present before but is there now.  Is directly in the listening field.  Some days/times its worse than others, but that may have more to do with the ambient noise levels as it is especially noticeable late evenings to early mornings.  Ive tried numerous suggestions from the APS people but to no avail.  Apparently, its an acknowledged issue with some units out there and they have a solution and will contact me shortly.
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 286
Post ID: 9834
Reply to: 9833
To name it is to learn about it
fiogf49gjkf0d

Jp,

I do not understand what you report and what Adrian repot. Is your “noticeable ever-present buzz” coming from loudspeakers (I mean is it acoustic noise) or is it a mechanical noise that coming from regenerator and it comes from your component plagued into the regenerator. In first case it ground loop, in second it is DC component. What does it mean “directly in the listening field? Doe it fluctuate with volume? Does it changed with lifting ground on regenerator load? Dose it change with change of sources? Did you measure the DC on the regenerator output? Did you try to run the regenerator’s load via isolation transformer? I mean it is strange to me that you report the buzz it as it something “minor”. If I have this problem I would toss anything the does it out of my house. I think you need to be more specific with what exactly you experience and then you will easily identify and perhaps resolve it.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 287
Post ID: 9836
Reply to: 9834
PP2000 buzz
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Is your “noticeable ever-present buzz” coming from loudspeakers (I mean is it acoustic noise) or is it a mechanical noise that coming from regenerator and it comes from your component plagued into the regenerator. In first case it ground loop, in second it is DC component. What does it mean “directly in the listening field? Doe it fluctuate with volume? Does it changed with lifting ground on regenerator load? Dose it change with change of sources?
I am quite sure it is a ground issue, as it is noise coming from the loudspeakers regardless of source or volume. Lifting the grounds on the amplifiers and unplugging the PP2000 from the wall so that it runs on battery power eliminates the problem.

The reason that I classify it as minor is that it is a very pure 60 Hz tone that occurs much like someone in the orchestra had set a little tone making machine in the far side of the brass section. It does not eliminate the benefits from using the PP2000 overall.

I will contact the company about this as well.

Adrian
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jp
Posts 39
Joined on 02-25-2006

Post #: 288
Post ID: 9837
Reply to: 9836
Experiments
fiogf49gjkf0d
I used a cheat plug to lift the ground but that did not help.  What helped was either unplugging the unit from the wall or turning off the breaker to run from battery.  The noise does not fluctuate with volume or source.  Ill take some DC readings tonite.
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 289
Post ID: 9838
Reply to: 9836
That is very normal!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 drdna wrote:
I am quite sure it is a ground issue, as it is noise coming from the loudspeakers regardless of source or volume. Lifting the grounds on the amplifiers… eliminates the problem.
If it so them there is no need to contact the company about it as it is not their problem. The ground loops are normal and lifting the grounds on the amplifiers is very normal, particularly with high sensitivity acoustic systems. Do not forget that PP2000 does nothing to ground wire – it is just shorted from input to output, so whatever problem you have with ground loops before PP2000 you might have the same after. Lifting the ground from the amplifiers of from whatever is necessary is very normal way to do, particularly in non-balanced systems. My Melquiades has the middle wire from the power cord not even connected to amp ground. Are you kindling me? If you run a single-ended design then your negative bass terminal supplies elections directly to cathodes of your tubes. So, are you willing to put the grid’s ground to the chassis of your amps? The grid’s ground is not only dirty – it is dangers and you can not only pick noise from it but you can get pregnant from it. So, if you USE the grid’s ground then you just incredibly lucky…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
floobydust


currently roaming the US
Posts 62
Joined on 01-19-2009

Post #: 290
Post ID: 9839
Reply to: 9838
Whose ground?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 By definition and code, a separate non-current carrying ground is required for all outlets. In every house I've lived in, the ground is a separate thick copper bar that goes deep into the ground (the earth outside the house) and that is the ground connection for the house electric system. How can this can be considered dirty, other than the dirt that the copper bar is earthed in? It is certainly not dangerous if wired correctly but can be if it is not.

 If the PP2000 is properly configured as an isolated power source (which I would suspect is the case), neither the neutral or hot lines from the power outlet are carried thru to it's output. By law, the non-current carrying ground line must be carried thru, otherwise the device could not carry a UL rating and end-users could be at risk. Ground loops in equipment can occur for many reasons, but lifting one or more grounds "may" cause an unsafe condition depending on how the equipment is wired internally.

  There is good news however, so far, I've not gotten pregnant... but I think it's more of a plumbing issue.

 Regards, KM



... just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not after you ...
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 291
Post ID: 9840
Reply to: 9839
This bad, bad, bad, bad public ground….
fiogf49gjkf0d

 floobydust wrote:
By definition and code, a separate non-current carrying ground is required for all outlets. In every house I've lived in, the ground is a separate thick copper bar that goes deep into the ground (the earth outside the house) and that is the ground connection for the house electric system. How can this can be considered dirty, other than the dirt that the copper bar is earthed in?

Floobydust,

You are kindling right? The problem with grid ground is that is shred with anyone on world. Well anyone in the world is not a big deal your neighbors is truly a big deal. The grid’s ground provides a return path for fault currents, so it your neighbor has a leaky circuit then you have it. All capacitive drifting of your neighbors you would share with them if they are closer to the grounding point then you – in a city what assurance you have? Any single impulse PS (including the PP2000) in any single computer of any other devise return a tremendous amount of dirt to ground – it is great if it have the path to Earth right there but in busy neighborhood it is not the case. Are you sure that your ground impedance is lover then the girl who below you uses an espresso machine and hair fan? Did you measure the impedance of ground in a regular public building? In the best case it will be sitting in the cold pipe and you can to 10 time lower impedance with your own properly driven into alkalined Erath rod. The point that I am trying to make is that common ground of public grid is public sewer the only defense for you to have lower ground impedance than anyone else. But it is not a defense but minimization of damage, the true defense is in my view is do not use pubic ground but use your own if you like me live in a center of city, like I do. When use my own ground then I always (!!!) had voltage between common public ground and my own ground (15 feet copper rod driver in pretreated backyard and 8Ga 30 feet cable from chassis of single-ended preamp which was is the only contact point with ground in my system).

The Cat

PS: Nowadays my grounding layout is different and I still have absolutely no problem with any ground loop. The 88dB gain phonostage at max out gain at my 109dB sensitively is absolutely silent.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 292
Post ID: 9842
Reply to: 9840
I am NOT suggesting this (c'est ne pas une pipe)
fiogf49gjkf0d
Truly desperate scofflaws might find themselves so annoyed by the hum that they lift the PP2000 AC ground connection at the PP2000 chassis and run that unit's ground only to a dedicated ground (with a lower impedance, of course), instead.  If you have hum but no dedicated ground line, then put in a dedicated ground line before you post again, please.

Again, don't try this at home, whatever you do!


Paul S
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 293
Post ID: 9843
Reply to: 9842
Actually I disagree with it.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Paul S wrote:
Truly desperate scofflaws might find themselves so annoyed by the hum that they lift the PP2000 AC ground connection at the PP2000 chassis and run that unit's ground only to a dedicated ground (with a lower impedance, of course), instead.  If you have hum but no dedicated ground line, then put in a dedicated ground line before you post again, please.

Again, don't try this at home, whatever you do!

The PP2000 has nothing to ground – it is juts shorted and the hum people apparently pick their own ground loops that too masked in noise without PP2000 (juts a hypnotizes). Running the system with own separated ground and PP2000 I find is less preferable, at least in my case as the idiosyncrasies of voltage between neutral and ground are VERY inflectional when the PP2000 is used. I personally plug everything into PP2000, using effectively the dirty common ground and then wherever it necessary in my playback I lift ground on individual components in order to break the loops.  I found that having a ground that referenced outside of the PP2000 was more devastating to sound then the use of common ground from the wall.

 Paul S wrote:
I bid Good Luck (and Good Night) to anyone who is especially content with the good electricity, in and of itself, and I dismiss anything like object worship of any product.  It's a hunk of metal, boys, that's all; and if APS are not lucky clowns, then they may not be good people.  Caveat.

Paul, I am not sure where you see “worshiping of any product”, I think you get the things wrongly. When did you last time bitch about the bad electricity?  I did in the end of December… I very much do not saddest you to try the PP2000, I would like you to try something else – maybe you found something better and I will learn. The point I am trying to make that you made a numbers of comments about PP2000 that I am not sure that they relate to any reality that I am experiencing with this regenerator. I am not in a business to worship power devises – I am in a “business” to identify and to address the specific problems that I face. I very much glad that PP2000 reduced the sharpness of my electricity problems. Worshiping? I think that it is your perception but not my expression.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 294
Post ID: 9844
Reply to: 9843
The PP2000 problem
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
the hum people apparently pick their own ground loops that too masked in noise without PP2000.
It is not exactly correct. There is 60 Hz hum eliminated by lifting the ground to the amplifiers. The neutral is connected to the ground prong and chassis in the amps, so I assume it is setting up a loop. However, there is a second problem of higher frequency hum which is eliminated only when the PP2000 is unplugged from the wall and runs from the battery. I think my thought would be if there is some way to treat the AC power input to the PP2000 to eliminate the second hum.
 Paul S wrote:
I bid Good Luck (and Good Night) to anyone who is especially content with the good electricity
No question that the PP2000 and its good electricity dramatically change the presentation of the sound. It is too early still to be able to begin to explore in what way the new "good electricity" system must be approached, although I hope I can be allowed to enjoy the stereo in the interim. The sounds continue to change from day to day. The HF is still not returned, but I have not given up hope yet.

Adrian
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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 295
Post ID: 9845
Reply to: 9843
Shaking the Bushes
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, these are just some shots over the bow of the Mothership of Fools and Opportunists, since they tend to travel together.  If you are an object worshiper, I have not seen it, so this was not aimed at you, nor at anyone to whom it does not apply.  Let anyone judge for himself if any of this is a fit in his case.

Obviously, I am not up to speed with your PP2000.  The grounding option I mentioned is a well-known, simple fix in many cases, as you know.  Clearly, pulsed noise is "getting past" the PP2000, and it has been said that APS plans to fix that, too.  Meanwhile, they can't ship the same old units fast enough, and no doubt they will continue to glean sound bites to promote the idea they are actually selling.  But I don't see you defending APS the company, either, which is only to be expected here.

You have to admit, it's not exactly like the your unit just dropped into your lap, turn key, courtesy of the swell folks at APS.  You fought hard - for a long time - for the damned thing.  In fact, if it turns out that you have the only good one, then that is only fair, after all, as far as I am concerned.  Really.

Who knows which way I will go.  But be sure that I will scream like a stuck pig if I buy a PP2000 and it does not work.  And you will know that most of the noise will be due to the fact that I saw it coming.

OTOH, I will grovel and coo like a dove if mine is plug-and-play

Best regards,
Paul S

02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 296
Post ID: 9846
Reply to: 9844
Debugging the ham.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 drdna wrote:
It is not exactly correct. There is 60 Hz hum eliminated by lifting the ground to the amplifiers. The neutral is connected to the ground prong and chassis in the amps, so I assume it is setting up a loop. However, there is a second problem of higher frequency hum which is eliminated only when the PP2000 is unplugged from the wall and runs from the battery. I think my thought would be if there is some way to treat the AC power input to the PP2000 to eliminate the second hum.

The “higher frequency hum” is most likely the 120Hz hum or the hum that is coming from full wave rectifiers of your amp. It is not the problem of the PS itself but the PS in context of particular grounding schema. When a PP2000 is unplugged from the wall and runs from the battery it is not that PP2000 is unplugged but the ground via PP2000 is unplugged.  You most likely have no noise because you have another path to ground and your system is perfectly grounded. When you introduce the PP2000 you introduce juts another path to ground. I still do not feel that it is PP2000 related. You can very easy to measure if your PP2000 shorts the ground – it shell be 0R from PP2000 ground input to output.  Then you would need to find what create the loop. There are two ways to do it. First way is shorting the loops with a shorting cable that you need to bridge different ground points. With some proactive it could be very handy. The simpler way is to plug juts one amp one speaker and one souse into the same power stir (or PP2000), get no noise operation and them add one element per time and to see when the hum show up.

 drdna wrote:
   The sounds continue to change from day to day.

Can you elaborate on it? What is being changed?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
floobydust


currently roaming the US
Posts 62
Joined on 01-19-2009

Post #: 297
Post ID: 9849
Reply to: 9840
Ground levels
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy,

 Yes.... in a city or congested neighborhood what is available as a ground can vary substantially. I keep referring to my own situation (sorry about that). Your points about a congested city and the power grid ground, etc. would be correct. I've not lived in a city or congested situation before with a focus on audio.

 I live about 10 miles west of the ocean in South Florida, all new construction/infrastructure and all wiring is underground (all communications is fiber). I do have a large copper bar sunk deeply into the ground right at the house. As Florida is known for "wet ground" it is a very low impedance dedicated ground and it is quiet. I've scoped the power coming into the house many times. In general it's reasonably clean and the voltage creeps up a bit at night as businesses shut down for the evening. Obviously I'm luckier than many in this respect. Still, you can get dirty power with all of the A/C units running (winter time has the best power). My neighborhood (and house) are also exceptionally quiet so any hint of hum and/or noise can be easily heard.

 One point however.... an isolated power regeneration source like the PP2000 should provide full isolation from the neutral and hot lines (the actual current carrying lines) from your grid power. If this is the case, you should be able to obtain a reasonable grounding scheme as neither side of the power is at the grid ground level. Depending on where you are will limit your ability to do this... but it seems you have managed this.

 Regards, KM



... just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not after you ...
02-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 298
Post ID: 9850
Reply to: 9846
PP2000 ground hum
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
When a PP2000 is unplugged from the wall and runs from the battery it is not that PP2000 is unplugged but the ground via PP2000 is unplugged. You most likely have no noise because you have another path to ground and your system is perfectly grounded.
Yes, I assume the problem was the ground path through neutral, either because of a high impedance or because of an interaction of the PP2000 with the isolation transformer.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
When you introduce the PP2000 you introduce juts another path to ground.
But if everything is plugged into the PP2000 and the PP2000 is unplugged, nothing is connected to the wall. It just loses the reference to the additional ground of the neutral AC path?

 Romy the Cat wrote:
The simpler way is to plug juts one amp one speaker and one souse into the same power stir (or PP2000), get no noise operation and them add one element per time and to see when the hum show up.
Well, I tried this first and the hum was always there unless the PP2000 was unplugged.

Adrian
02-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 299
Post ID: 9851
Reply to: 9850
It does not makes since
fiogf49gjkf0d

 drdna wrote:
Yes, I assume the problem was the ground path through neutral, either because of a high impedance or because of an interaction of the PP2000 with the isolation transformer.

Ah, you have also an isolation transformer sitting in the system? Where does it sit and what it does?

 drdna wrote:
  But if everything is plugged into the PP2000 and the PP2000 is unplugged, nothing is connected to the wall. It just loses the reference to the additional ground of the neutral AC path?

A presence of one single reference to ground is the same as having no references to ground from the hum perspective. You will have a noise if you have more than one references to ground. You can easy test it by lifting ground from PP2000 input. It would not be a good way to operate but as the hum-test it will do.

 drdna wrote:
Well, I tried this first and the hum was always there unless the PP2000 was unplugged.

Adrian, I still do not see how it might be PP2000 related and I have no idea why you lifting the PP2000 output still, as you report,  it has the hum. It just does not makes since to me.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 300
Post ID: 9852
Reply to: 9851
Neutral ground path in hum
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
You will have a noise if you have more than one references to ground. You can easy test it by lifting ground from PP2000 input. It would not be a good way to operate but as the hum-test it will do.
Yes, I tried this, lifting the 3rd prong ground from the PP2000 plug changes some hum, but it does not make the hum go away. I also lifted the ground from each device in the stereo, plugging them in one ata time. This also had no effect on the higher pitched hum.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I still do not see how it might be PP2000 related and I have no idea why you lifting the PP2000 output still, as you report, it has the hum. It just does not makes since to me.
No, when the PP2000 is totally unplugged from the wall (and hence the neutral path which is also grounded is removed), the hum disappears. Then the whole stereo is functioning like some giant battery operated device.

This is odd, since it seems to be the AC mains connection that is leading to hum. There is only one path to ground at that point, the neutral path through the AC plug. Is it possible that there is a ground loop problem within the PP2000 creating the hum, which is eliminated when there is no external reference to ground? Or what do you suggest?

Adrian
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