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   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» ... again on GOTO Unit drivers... (109 posts, 6 pages)
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  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  637965  07-29-2007
  »  New  Eventually - a reasonable midbass horn from GOTO..  Clever DIY going on where?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     97  1160499  11-19-2007
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  84554  11-03-2008
  »  New  The tapped horns: cons, pros and Sound..  Danley DTS-20....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     57  666494  04-23-2009
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2062241  07-26-2009
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  »  New  The 5-ways from Germany...  Another Kid?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     38  240584  12-06-2009
  »  New  Configuration from Italy: multisell++ and double model ..  In search of optimum.......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  94629  01-02-2010
  »  New  Multi-amping crossovering...  No input capacitor......  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  65088  09-24-2010
08-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 51
Post ID: 11527
Reply to: 8048
3 whys: SG370, SG370DX, SG37FRP…
fiogf49gjkf0d
Twogoodears,  MINGSU or whoever else why know, I have a question to ask

As I understand GOTO use mostly titanium diaphragms but they calm them by plastic surround. This FRP technology the used nowadays in all GOTO form from Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic. Since I have opportunity now to try on my own GOTO mid range driver I wonder what is the difference between SG370, SG370DX and SG37FRP drivers. Also, realistically, how high the 37-370 drivers might go up in fast opening horn? GOTO claims 10K, people claim 8K, I do not believe both of them and looking at the 37-370 drivers contraction I do not know why they shall stop at 8K. Is it is regulated by diaphragm then are any options to deal with this fast tolling diaphragm?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 52
Post ID: 11528
Reply to: 11527
Goto mid hi summary
fiogf49gjkf0d
SGSG-37FRP (designed for mid-high ranges in a smaller system). 56,000 yen
Driver frequency band: 400Hz - 10kHz,  " optimal crossover is 500Hz or more" 110dB, 18,500 gauss   

SG-370 (designed for the mid-high ranges of four ways). 148,000 yen
Driver frequency band: 400Hz - 18kHz, "optimal crossover is 500Hz - 5kHz," 116dB, 23,000 gauss

SG-370DX (for the mid-high ranges of four ways; titanium diaphragm). 258,000 yen
Driver frequency band: 400Hz - 20kHz, "optimal crossover is 500Hz - 5kHz," 116dB, 24,000 gauss   

SG-370BL (for the mid-high ranges of four ways; beryllium diaphragm version with above motor). 350,000 yen  

http://audio-database.com/GOTO%20UNIT/unit/index.html 
goto recommends using their tweeter (e.g. SG160), and bringing in @ "5kHz (or more, depending on...)."  
thus the lower crossover recommendations for the mid-high driver. 

that said, I have listened to SG-370, with the top run wide open, and a ribbon crossed @ 10kHz, 1st order, and heard no signs of distress. 

Robert

I know nothing

08-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 53
Post ID: 11530
Reply to: 11528
The Goto’s strangeness…
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hm,

SGSG-37FRP, Driver frequency band: 400Hz - 10kHz, 18,500 gauss   
SG-370, Driver frequency band: 400Hz - 18kHz, 23,000 gauss
SG-370DX, Driver frequency band: 400Hz - 20kHz, 24,000 gauss   

Inversing, they build up magnetic density and extend HF. It is a legitimate way to do the things, but there is a catch in it.  If they use the same cone same magnetic stricture and the difference is only in the amount of magnet that they piled up then what did they do with changing of Q of the cone? Rising magnetic force from 1.8T to 2.4T would severely over-damp the lower knee of the driver making the harmonics inappropriately rapidly deflating.  The way to deal with is it to use different (softer) suspension but I never heard GOTO users ever mention the existence of different diaphragms.  So, I wonder are SGSG-37FRP, SG-370 and SG-370DX use the same diaphragms?

Also, what do they mean: Driver frequency band: 400Hz - 20kHz but optimal crossover is 500Hz - 5kHz? Is it their desire to sell one mode driver from 5kHz and up or is it their admission that those driver do not sound well over 5kHz. Frankly I feel that what GOTO say is BS as looking at the phase pas on the SG-370 it shall go VERY much higher than 5kHz. To make a titanium cones to have 5kHz a phase plug might not even need to be there. Strange…

robert, when you listened to SG-370, with the top run wide open than did you try to disconnect the ribbon twee and to list just one GOTO driver atop. If you did then can you comment on it? Also, you said that the ribbon was crossed @10kHz, 1st order. This is a use of ribbon as essentially a MF driver. This raises many questions… It would be interesting to interview the person who made those decisions…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 54
Post ID: 11531
Reply to: 11530
Goto unknowns...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ok; there's a mis-print somewhere, or a manufacturing change... 
The web site linked listed SG-370 as 23,000 gauss, and SG-370DX as 24,000 gauss. 
The goto brochure lists SG-370 as 24,000 gauss. 
And was discussed yesterday w/ someone, one doesn't really know what magnetic strength is unless you measure it. 
(after measuring several other make drivers, and finding them to be a ways off from listed specs...)  

I did take the 370 apart inspect & measure the diaphram and surround, but have not seen the insides of a SG-370DX. 

Yes, the drivers sound good way above 5kHz.  
I liked them to 10kHz. 
I believe they want to sell their tweeters crossed at 5kHz.

I did not want to run the ribbon clear down as low as 5kHz. 
10kHz was as low as I ran it, also tried ~12kHz and ~14kHz. 
I liked the ribbon @ ~12kHz best, in that trial, but didn't spend a lot of time with the two together. 

Yes, actually I spent more time listening to the 370 alone, without anyother driver supplementing the topend, and without any (low-pass) cutting off the topend. 
I don't recall any high frequency distortion, like break-up.  I thought the surround went a long way to damping the nastyness often found in titanium diaphgrams, and that it did remain a very detailed, resolving driver.  e.g. listening to individual strings in the orchestra, or what I thought it did really well was the upper register of piano.  The percussive element of the hammer-fall, and the harmonics of the notes when listening at first, then music... 
08-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 55
Post ID: 11532
Reply to: 11531
Goto honeymoon night? Worth it?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks, serenechaos.
 
I have a 37FRP is looks like falling on my laps, OK, I made it falling on my laps. It is as I understand the slowest GOTO MF. What I am interested is to see if GOTO will be able to add any value beyond where I am with my Vitavox S2. It might be interesting to try the 37FRP, particularly in context of the flexibility with output tube I have now with my MF DH Milq channel.  I selected the37FRP as it has identical to my S2’s amount of flux and sensitivity.  I have to admit, and I have expressed this sentiment, that I am very much not at ease with GOTO specification and I found it contradictive and almost like it was written by absolutely ignorant people, so I presume it might be anything….

I do have very high convince and you look like are conforming it that GOTO will not have “titanium nastiness”, I never hear it with GOTO and looks like people never report on it – this is what the plastic surround is for. What however is very interesting is HOW MUCH the damping will be tolerated with increase of amp idling and what will be with tone of the driver?  From my limited experience GOTO did not strike me as very tone-able driver but rather as very “accurate” and “smartly-restrained” driver. But never had GOTO drivers on my own possession and never experimented with them personally, so it might be fun to try them now, what all elements of my playback are well defined.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-22-2007

Post #: 56
Post ID: 11536
Reply to: 11532
GOTO high mid range driver
fiogf49gjkf0d
The 37 is 20 year old model and it is not in production anymore.  The current production model for export market are 370(110dB), 370DX(113dB), 3880S(116dB).
The driver spec. is 400Hz to 18kHz but the recommended crossover range is 1kHz-5kHz with S600 horn or 1kHz - 6kHz with S800 horn.  Yes.  GOTO design and produce their driver to reproduce "accurate" sound.  Do not want to add any "driver" sound to the music. 

Ming Su
http://www.goto-unit.com
08-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 57
Post ID: 11537
Reply to: 11536
Goto vs. Goto?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 MINGSU wrote:
The 37 is 20 year old model and it is not in production anymore.  The current production model for export market are 370(110dB), 370DX(113dB), 3880S(116dB).
The driver spec. is 400Hz to 18kHz but the recommended crossover range is 1kHz-5kHz with S600 horn or 1kHz - 6kHz with S800 horn. 
  Ming, thanks.

Might I ask you: besides the fact that 37 are not longer in production anymore, are any other design attributes that you can name the make 37 different from 370? Well, I understand a few out of more magnet part – Altec did the same with 806 and 808 drivers (those that have no more than 5% price different if the 808 do not use symphonic cones). So, is anything besides of that? Are they use the same cones? Do you know any sonic differences, if any, between 37 and 370? GOTO said that 37FRP designed for mid-high ranges in a smaller system. However, the smaller system imps less driver and each of the driver meant to be used in wider range – so the 37FRP shall be more universal driver then the narrow-bandwidth meant to be use later drivers, am I right?

Also, my interest in 37FRP was pretty much because it is no current production. It is a driver from 70s, so it is not “ 20 year old” but thanks got 40 years old. You see, 40 years in a history of a Hi-Fi company is 2-3 generations. What Goto was found in 60 I believe I very much doubt that Mr. Goto was 20 year old man and I am very certain the he is not around anymore, at least he is not involve in production. I know very little about the Goto company but I know a LAT about AMNY other Hi-Fi companies and I know that practically all of them years ago made better products. In fact I am an author of a very elegant theory according to which any Hi-Fi company within 4 year is get converted into shit by the industry influence,  butt is another subject.

So, if to accept a premise that that all Hi-Fi companies soon of later produce shit then why do you feel Goto Company does not expose to this tendency. Frankly, my interests in 37FRP were exactly because it is 40 year old driver. So amt is your objections to the 40 year old Goto design of sound?

 MINGSU wrote:
Yes.  GOTO design and produce their driver to reproduce "accurate" sound.  Do not want to add any "driver" sound to the music. 
   Well, first of all, whatever Goto, or any other drivers do has absolutely nothing to do with music, let keep this phraseology out of my site and preserve it for Stereophile level, at least do not use it with me as it sound to ridicules. Second, the "accurate" sound itself is not an inspiration itself – there are many other things that shall be taken under consideration. The Cat



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-22-2007

Post #: 58
Post ID: 11539
Reply to: 11537
What is wrong with being accurate sound?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

GOTO do not release techinical information about their driver.  If you have specific question, email me and I will be glad to forward your question to GOTO.   It will take a while but most of time they will try their best to answer. 

That is great that you now have a pair of GOTO driver.  Since they are very old pair of driver, I will recommend you to send them to GOTO Japan to make sure the driver are up to the spec. so you can be sure of your evaluation of GOTO driver. 

A perfect transducer should accurate reproduce the input signal.  Whatever, one input to a speaker driver, it should reproduce the same ( or music, in my view, because I do not listen to signal thru. my system.  I listen to music. Sorry, I cannot find other word other than "music".)

The only way to compare the different GOTO driver model is to get them and listen to them in your own system but make sure all drivers are up to spec. and in perfect working condition.

Ming
08-24-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 59
Post ID: 11542
Reply to: 11539
Why care about the specifications as Goto understands it!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 MINGSU wrote:
Since they are very old pair of driver, I will recommend you to send them to GOTO Japan to make sure the driver are up to the spec. so you can be sure …. 

Ok, but then they need to send them to me then in order I inform them if their “specifications” have any rational and any relativity to actual Sound. A company that for years was not able to publish about own products information that would be making a common sense need to do better in order to win my credibility and trustworthiness.
 MINGSU wrote:
A perfect transducer should accurate reproduce the input signal.  Whatever, one input to a speaker driver, it should reproduce the same …
It is incorrect. The input signal? What is it?
 MINGSU wrote:
The only way to compare the different GOTO driver model is to get them and listen to them in your own system but make sure all drivers are up to spec. and in perfect working condition.
I agree, to get the sound of the drivers is possible to listen to them in your own system, with accordance with own demand. I am not sure why you stress the subject of specifications with drivers. If a coil is not burned and was not overheated then it is very difficult to make a driver not easily fixable. Drivers are very simple and with all my modesty I feel that I might know about compression drivers more then GOTO will be able to handle. But I ma known to be a humble pussy…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 60
Post ID: 11563
Reply to: 11542
Old Goto's drivers vs. newer, current production
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Roman!

So, an SG-37FRP finally dropped on yr. laps;-) - glad it happened: not because you're now part of an Olympus-like lobby, but because you'll be able to judge with yr. own ears, much, MUCH better than theorically speculating on this or that...

It's not the best (or most expensive) speaker in the world, but - I hope you'll agree - it's extremely transparent and sensitive, without loosing that sense of easy, airy character, quite rare.

Quoting from a previous post of mine:

"Returning to Goto: when I quoted the between 7 and 10 years age of my second-hand drivers, I meant to point out they're not the huge, super-expensive, tycoon-type drivers someone own, BUT, nonetheless, were still manufactured in small batches when Seja Goto himself was still in the workshop.

Me too I own Westrex' and RCA's drivers and speakers which are 50 or 60 years old, and didn't suffered any flux loss...

JBL or Altec or...: Romy - an example I wish to tell you is that when I did some testing and listening, what I remember clearly was the hiss coming from high and mid-high drivers... to my surprise, while the hiss from, say, a JBL 2420 with barrier/sliced short horn and lens was like "fffffffffssffffff", quite grainy -  the very same hiss, say from interstation FM or tape or phono without disc playing was a feeble, clear "sssssssssssssss" on high and "ssshhhhhhhhhh" on mid-high, quite different from the thicker, less mellow JBL's."
Also Altec's (288-C, in my experiece...) sounded dull when directly compared vs. SG-37FRP... I read somewhere that Japanese people has "different" ear shapes, and love high frequencies... so ALL cartridges and speakers from Japan "should" have a tilted up high frequencies character!!! Yep: isn't this a form of audio/musical racism;-)!?!?

I'll soon be in Japan for two weeks visiting some people I know there, who owns nice horns systems, ALE's, Audio Tekne (based on ALE's drivers with carbon-block/graphite enclosures) and Goto, as well... my experience, owning several handmade cartridges and a full set of Goto's drivers and horns proves the above to be simply untrue and offensive to the great love for audio and music of the average japanese MJ/stereo Sound reader.

I'm sure - and I'll sincerely report in the next weeks in my Blog - about my audio/musical experiences... which I expect to be VERY interesting.

Returning to Goto's... Roman: the single digits power handing of most of Goto's drivers isn't a snobbish, conservative data... I always read this feature as something which CLEARLY take the distances to the cinema/theater drivers, industrial designs, where the subtleties in music and details retrival is simply a secondary feature.

When inspecting a Goto or ALE driver's diaphragm vs. ALTEC/JBL's you INSTANTLY understand they are two different breeds.

Horns drivers from home listening are, must be differently built from industrial/P.A. drivers, period.

As I often say, everything sound, also the el cheapo transistor radio with its 3 cm diam. speaker... how this or that sounds is paramount and to accomplished only through direct experiencing and comparisons.

Good luck with yr. newly acquired green-bodied toy and keep us posted.   
 


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 61
Post ID: 11564
Reply to: 11563
... following from previous post...
fiogf49gjkf0d
... my only experience with newer, expensive Berillium diaphragm Goto drivers, has been a mix between "Wow, I'm listening to a +35K euros speakers system" and... "Gosh, music do not sound this way"... this of course was due to some crossovers tuning I wasn't able to do in my host house AND the T-amps feeding the speakers, quite lacking in harmonics and bass shy...

This to say... from the cheapest to the most expensive, the "house sound" is there, so, IMO, isn't necessarily true that "the most expensive is the best".

Sure Berillium and super-duper fluxes gave the feeling of a top-notch product, the best money can buy... nonetheless, my ears say it's also true a "cheap Goto system" is something to be heard, without overweighting words like "top, cost, flux, weight).
 
As a plus, my skin-feeling - i.e. having purchsed something which was The Real Thing, drivers and horns from the mid-seventies, where Sejia Goto himself was painstackingly building these products by hand in his workshop... well, cheap or expensive... these are, IMO and for my tastes, the drivers to own;-)

Ah! 


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 62
Post ID: 11567
Reply to: 11564
Goto, ALE, YL, Condo, Onken etc…
fiogf49gjkf0d

My definition of “Japanese sound” is different than yours and I do not feel that Japanese sound is characterized by “tilted up high frequencies character”.

http://www.RomyTheCat.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=1959

I think if you are accustom to “tilted up high frequencies character” from Japanese products the then it is an indication to me that you use driver with too high magnetic force in gap, that from my point of view the new  GOTO are most likely might be. It makes too fast harmonic roll out of notes to their pitches and makes the sound to have “tilted up high frequencies character”. This begs is VERY simple to model with electromagnet driver – I did it many times. Juts for sake of experiment you might want to complicate it a bit by loading the output stages of your amps twice harder. You might do it is “quick and dirty way” by shorting your GOTO drivers with 16R-8R resistor and it will give you an indication if the direction is right.

Anyhow, thanks for your toughs sharing about GOTO.  I will give a ride to the SG-37FRP when is become available to me and will see how it goes. Frankly my primary interests are not GOTO but the midbass ALE compression drivers; however SG-37FRP might be a good parley to look into what those “exotic” Japanese drivers are all about.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 63
Post ID: 11569
Reply to: 11567
Japan audio scene
fiogf49gjkf0d
If time (Endo-san and mine...) will allow, I should also visit Endo Labs of ALE fame... sure I'll have a listen to a 4 ways system in Tokyo area with bass driver and concrete horn.

Re. "tilted high frequencies"... no, Roman, it's not me experiencing such a drawback.

... but it's something, time to time, I read about japanese audio, as reported by detractors... if those people listened or not to a properly tuned multi-ways horn system is something to be proved and debated...

I personally NEVER heard unmusical/unbalanced gears, among "classic" transductors: YL-Yoshimura Labs, ALE, Goto, Kanno, Eltus, Coral... 

The building and project quality of the above is quite high... maybe a biased word-of-mouth played against Japanese quality audio for years, who knows... and it's always the listener tuning ability and sensibility to optimize the final result, don't you? 

Anyway: good luck with your SG-37FRP's experiments to come. At least they come with as a cheap entry ticket;-)  


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 64
Post ID: 11570
Reply to: 11569
A tastes bridge (WJAAS...)
fiogf49gjkf0d
 twogoodears wrote:

I personally NEVER heard unmusical/unbalanced gears, among "classic" transductors: YL-Yoshimura Labs, ALE, Goto, Kanno, Eltus, Coral... 


... aehm: I meant "transducers"... BUT wrote again to add that among the scarce literature available on Goto, they wrote they used, in late '60s/early '70s shakuachi and bees buzzing and crickets singing recordings to tune a given driver and horn and speaker system.

Then, I read the interesting Western vs. Eastern listening habits and tastes link you gave and Yoshi's posts... thanks for sharing.

I found myself very near to Japanese music/audio lovers... in fact when I share with (web) pen-pals about the birds singing which I hear on this or that recording, they - like myself - do not blame for poor attention to music, composer, etc., but as a cherished and sought-after "plus", adding realism and "being there" during the recording session...

Come to mind the joyful swallows singing during a Quartetto Italiano Webern's on Philips and many, many, many more are bright examples of this "cherry on the cake" I so much enjoy.

Japanese's (and mine) is not necessarily "craziness"...  


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 65
Post ID: 11571
Reply to: 11570
The “exotic” Japanese drivers.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, I reacted about your commentaries about the “tilted up high frequencies character”, nothing less. I personally do not feel that such a problem ever exist. I do read your blog sometimes and I do feel the Japanese influence. Anyhow, the SG-37FRP might be a good inexpensive entry ticket to see “what those straight people are raving about”. I am a bit not comfortable with pricing rational of those “exotic” Japanese drivers. It is not that they are too expensive but I am accustomed that expense has a reference to any type rational – would it be performance or cost.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 66
Post ID: 11592
Reply to: 11563
"The drivers from home listening", period or multiple dots?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 twogoodears wrote:
Horns drivers from home listening are, must be differently built from industrial/P.A. drivers, period. 

Yes and no. Yes, they might be, or even must be different, but can you elaborate on this idea in context of GOTO drivers for instance? What do you feel shall be different in driver, design-wise or design-wise that would make it more home- listening driver? Also, I do agree with the premise but I think the actual solution is more a marketing propaganda then the actual meaningful differences. 

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 67
Post ID: 11597
Reply to: 11592
Dot, dot, dot... maybe's more honest...
fiogf49gjkf0d
I agree the "period" closing needs more words, Roman.
The P.A. horns/drivers were mounted in stadiums, convention centers, maxonic halls, cinemas, theaters, everywhere was needed a broad music or speech dispersion, trouble free operation and high S.P.L.

All the "VINTAGE" movement was possibly born when people who run cinemas and theaters and stadiums audio systems overhauling, instead of dumping these huge, dusty drivers and ugly cork/bitumen tamed horns tried them at home.

Walt Bender of Audiomart and HiFi Town fame was among the first who listed the worthy vintage, ex-industrial gears having some audio appeal for the loft owner, cool Newyorker... still a penny-pincher affaire, no hypes, salon price tags, back in the hey days...

Japanese audio scene and the French, Jean Hiraga's leaded connection, where also important in establishing a collector guide... WE, Altec, JBL became mainstream U.S.A. vintage... only by chance RCA, Stephens', University and the like remained out of the list.

Same happened for UK's audio: Haden Boardman and Nick Beasley were among the promoters of Quad, Goodmans, Garrard and Leak... Vitavox' and Wharfedale (and more...) remained, luckly, quite underground and well kept secrets, with price-tags accordingly down-earth.

Japanese audio collectors were buying old Marantz and MacIntosh, as an Old World Treasures of the Past... giving to West the integrated amps we all knew back in the '70s.

Back to the (ex) P.A. drivers and horns... they were cheap, only drawback was being HUGE... a friend of mine was paid - yes: he didn't paid, but was paid as mover - for picking up from a Rome ol' cinema, a dusty but nicely preserved WE 15-A horn and WE 555 with Tungar P.S.U. and WE 43 amp... the above goodies are now worth Y 50.000.000+ or so in Akibahara district in Tokyo!

They're classic, well built, no-frills industrial design built for trouble-free operation for decades...

... but not high fidelity gears!

So: what's high fidelity? I'll be not able to explain in full, BUT my personal ideal of "high fidelity" is: detail, dimensionality, emotion,  transparency and trueness in music and sound reproduction in the average room through ANY gear will please your ears and eyes for technical and/or aesthetic features, BUT always having the music as a finality. Something very personal, anyway...

In my experience, the (ex-)industrial drivers, sounded "right" when compared with mid-fi small to mid-sized enclosures, like the top quality single speakers like Goodmans' Axiom 80 or Siemens' KL-405 and KL-307 or Vitavox DU-120 sounded much more open, detailed, lifelike, transparent and pleasant. They sure lacked low bass or bat-like highs, but sounded true to music.

To go a step ahead, enter the Goto, ALE, YL, Audio Tekne (ALE again...) - they still are capable of the subtleties, the airy, transparent, life-like beauty of the above (and others sought after wide-band speakers), WITH the dispersion in room, untiring like only acoustic music does and authority only horns can give.

It's absolutely possible to obtain great results with Altec, JBL, RCA and the like... but the level of naturalness and detail reacheable with those japanese, ultra-light diaphragm and fluxes is more in the realm of the magnifying lenses - like going at a concert without your eyeglasses.

You hear music, of course, but you're not listening to the concert in full, at 100 percent of your capabilities.

... thus the name I fondly gave to my system (like for your Macondo): music in Gotorama... sounds silly, but so true to reality.

The above only an attempt to elaborate on the matter... no "period", this time... the "dot, dot, dot" is still open, of course.    


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 68
Post ID: 11605
Reply to: 11597
Let to be rational about “home driver" vs. “pro drivers”.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I would discard the first part of your post. It is it truly irrelevant what Germans, French, Japanese or Brits were buying and what particular brand and in what time they consider as “fashionable”. It is know that Ebay or Akibahara popularity has absolutely not impact on me as I know/knew quite a number of Morons who slogan is the “Akibahara Sound Forever”. I do not like the mind of those people and they NEVER demonstrated any sound that I find interning for myself. Those people just do not present a challenge to my interests.

Your attempt to define high-fidelity as a next level of “naturalness and detail reachable” is not something that I would agree but we are not talking now what is high-fidelity is. The subject was a conceptual difference between pro-audio drivers (which most of them are) and drivers that were made for home use (presumably the Goto, ALE, YL, etc…). You said that drivers for home listening must be differently built from PA drivers. I might agree and I would like to expend on it. From what you said I presume that you feel that Japanese Goto, ALE, YL and ALE are different from let say Japanese TOA or Fostex, not to mention many western pro audio drivers. I proposed to define what the difference is.

You might feel that the difference is in sound with all of those: “subtleties, the airy, transparent, life-like beauty”. It might be so, but let to define why the home use drivers are so supposedly different.

The diaphragms in there are not ultra-light as you reports, in fact they are comparable to the pro drivers. The entire design of the drivers is not different then pro drivers. Japanese very seldom invent the things, they are very good for adoption and expending and it is exactly what Japanese home drivers did. The phase plugs, the magnetic structures, the suspensions of the cones, the wiring of the voice coils, and the configuration of polls of the gaps are no different with “home use” drivers then we can see with pro audio drivers. Even the amount of flux in the “home use drivers” and “pro audio drivers” is the same – there are some Goto that run 1.8T and there are pro audio driver that run 2.4T. The “dispersion in room” that you mentioned is also is very much not the area of “home drivers” advantage.

So, what I am trying to bring up is some king of rational that would give some base why the “home use driver” might be different then “pro use”. There are only two areas what I think might have SOME lucidness: the type of core and type of magnets. The type of magnates is controversial. The pro drivers in most of the cases do not give dams want magnets they use – as long then get marked amount of magnetic density in gap they are happy.  I presume that home-drivers are peakier and they might use the very specific magnets that they select by sonic considerations. I said it is controversial because nowadays the magnet production is very much globalised and everyone but the very much same magnets.  Put in this way: with the volumes that “home drivers” consume the have no chose but to use magnets from the same barrel as anybody else.

The core material for the magnetic structure might be the only area where I feel the “home drivers” might go crazy. They might use some permendurian type or whatever “exotic” it might be. The material of those things does affect sound.  BTW, it is not so expensive stuff. The “pro drivers” never used it generally and they just do not need it. If the JBL, Selenium, BMS or Pyle would decide to do cut their core with some king of cobalt and nickel steal then it would make their drivers to cost $25 more. In the case of the home-oriented Goto, ALE, YL and ALE it get transferred into very deferent price tags but the artificially inflated price for those things is a whole another subject.

So, I do not feel that there is a true “home use” and “pro use” compression drivers. There are certainly the difference, HUGE difference, between the “home objectives” and “pro objectives”. There are also a HUGE difference in the design decisions that people make when they built PA system and home systems. I think it is to much-much less degree would relate to “home drivers” and “PA drivers”. I think it would be more like the sound of “regulators tubes” vs. the tubes that were “designed for Sound”. Come on! Let be real about it. NO ONE ever design this thing in pro audio worlds for sound. the folks who design for home use might have luxury to care about Sound – the is good. However, then we need to define what they were trying to accomplish.  The good people from GOTO looks like “design for home”, that is good, but the very same people insist that time aliment of the drivers have no difference. Dose this disquiet the GOTO designers then from the people who have “higher objectives”. Any single GOTO system that I have seen online pile up the channels in absolute ransomed fashion – is it the way how the “home drivers” shell be used?  Any single ALE system that I have seen online used digital crossover and the owners report that there no problem with it. Do I need to consider that digital crossover is a mandatory attribute of the “home drivers” as well?

The point that am trying to make is that the subject of the “home use“ driver vs. the “pro use drivers” is a bit complicated and the thing are not so clear as you, Stefano, is trying to present it to yourself.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 69
Post ID: 11606
Reply to: 11605
Volume
fiogf49gjkf0d
One basic requirement of "Pro" speakers is that they play LOUD, preferably day after day (night after night), without blowing up.  Most pro gear is designed with volume (power handling) and durability as the first considerations, and the "sound man" is generally left to fend for himself in order to adapt the pro gear to a given use or venue.  While home hi-fi dweebs might futz with the gear itself, many professional soundmen use "outboard" equipment to create and/or shape the sound the way they want it, within the constraints that time and circumstance may afford.

A friend who tours the country with different headliners prides himself on his abilitity to cobble togetner a working operation under any real-world "impossible" conditions.  Needless to say, he has only a nominal interest in home hi-fi and the last time I heard "music" playing at his house it sounded awful.  Still, he is in high demand by touring bands because of his special expertise in meeting "pro" requirements with "pro" gear.

Basically, Sound per se never factored much in "pro" speakers.  I started out with "theater" A7 500s that had their hi-fi butts kicked by the original Advents, IMO, apart from dynamics, of course (except that even here I could offerr some ideas about "dynamics".

Best regards,
Paul S
08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-22-2007

Post #: 70
Post ID: 11607
Reply to: 11605
Time alignment and GOTO
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy!

Just to be cleared, GOTO has never claimed that time alignment is not important nor to suggest their customer that time alignment is not important.  In a home listening environment, it is very difficult to do time alignment with a 3 or 4 way horn system.  Yes.  if one has the room and space, one should consider it but if one does not have the room and space, one should not go crazy about the time alignment issue.  Most GOTO system that you have seen fall into the "not have enough room and space" home listening environment.  If one can do time alignment, by all means, should do it.  But, if that is not practical and limited by room and space, don't get too carry away and worry about time alignment, afterall, that is not the only factor to determine and define a good sound system.

Again, I suggest that you send your SG37 driver to GOTO to make sure the drivers are in good condition before your evaluation.  It is not free but well worth the cost.

Ming

08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 71
Post ID: 11608
Reply to: 11606
The lower power handling
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul,

Ok, I would agree with this. The power handling is the factor that I forgot to mention. The Japanese home drivers are rated for a few watts vs. the pro driver are rated for hundreds watts.  BTW, some of older pro drivers (like my Vitavox) were also rated for a few watts.

What however, we need to pay attention is not a power rating but how much advance the low power rating would give to the home use drivers. With just a few watts of power rating the drivers that meant for “home use” might use way voice coils tunes of much smaller gauge, use rectangular wire and to wind it tighten, make the lighter voice coils or even the voice coils coil made by this foil. This would minimize the inertia of the movable part of the driver and make the driver to be more reactive to lower signals. This is certainly an advantage.

What I would wordy in this approach is about the satiation what somebody by $20K for a pair of 5W drivers and decide to use it in his/her 1000sq feet room.  It is not out of the realm of imposable. So would it mean that 300B amp at full power will overheat or burn up the $20K driver? Pay attrition we know NOTHING about the stats of the driver like GOTO and how tolerant they are for power. I wish this subject had some exposure as well.

Anyhow, the lower power handling for the home drives and consequential of lower moving mass is the factor.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 72
Post ID: 11609
Reply to: 11607
One more time about GOTO and time-alignment.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Ming,

what you say is not exactly accurate. I have MANY desiccations about it with number Goto users in past and if I am not mistaken then even some kind GOTO official from past event argued this point with me. He insisted that Goto require 4th order crossover and no time alignment. I was explaining to him the he was an idiot but he did stand resolute.  According to him with Goto drivers that time alignment is not so critical and it was like this years after years the Goto position. Frankly it was one of the major position why always did not take them seriously.

What even more interesting is that you are the US distributor, a very much official person and you make the comment like this: “If one has the room and space, one should consider it but if one does not have the room and space, one should not go crazy about the time alignment issue.” It has absolutely nothing to do with room and space and unless people use bass horns the time alignment it never a problem. The problem is when people go into very deep observations about the particulars of a given compression driver sound but are blind to very major problems that come from time-misalignment.

To have a sense of sight is possible absolutely mandatory requirements for the people who want to be truck drivers. To have a sense of hearing is possible absolutely mandatory requirements for the people who want to play musicians. To be athletically fit is mandatory requirement for a play in sport at certain professional level. A person might not be any of it but them probably the person is not qualified to claim any advanced driving techniques, of record sport results. The very same is with drivers. The time-alignment is absolutely mandatory and not obligatory condition. If the condition is not enforced ten all bets are off. If a person does not get it then there is absolutely nothing to talk with him about the sound if his horns drivers and he is clueless.

Funny but I assure you that most of your Goto customers are in fact clueless and if you with them to more enjoy your Goto drivers then you must to start very aggressive and very firm demand for time alignment. Not time-aligned must not be heard – big fat and very confident period!

BTW, one of the reasons why I am not so strong with trying your SG37 is because to incorporating it in Macondo in the time-aligned fashion is a bit tricky and of cause would never agree to try if without the time-alignment.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-22-2007

Post #: 73
Post ID: 11611
Reply to: 11609
What is perfectly time aligned?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy!

Put on an engineer hat!

Time-aligned is an impossible task from my point of view.  How can one perfectly time align different drivers?  Align to what precision? mm, inch, cm or ft?  5%, 10%, 30% time align? Align to the tip of the cone or middle of the cone or the end of the cone?  Or to the beginnng of the throat entrance or the end of phase plug? 

In my view, if one can do it and arrange all drivers on a same vertical plane, it is better but if not, one should not worry too much about time align and should just enjoy.

Again!  Since I start working with GOTO 4 years ago, they have never recommended to use anyhting more than 2nd order - always 1st order with active crossover and 2nd order with passive crossover.

Ming

08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 74
Post ID: 11612
Reply to: 11611
Ok, doctor! :-)
fiogf49gjkf0d
 MINGSU wrote:
Time-aligned is an impossible task from my point of view.  How can one perfectly time align different drivers?  Align to what precision? mm, inch, cm or ft?  5%, 10%, 30% time align? Align to the tip of the cone or middle of the cone or the end of the cone?  Or to the beginnng of the throat entrance or the end of phase plug? 

Ming, I would not even debate it as it is so funny. The scare part in all of it that this level of understanding and dealing with the time-alignment problems is not your personal idea but most likely the vision that was given to you buy the manufacturer you represent. If it so, then I would VERY scare even to tough anything those guys do today. It would be as it you are a dentist and suggest me to pull my teeth in order to free up space for growing a third kindly…

 MINGSU wrote:
In my view, if one can do it and arrange all drivers on a same vertical plane, it is better but if not, one should not worry too much about time align and should just enjoy.

 
I have the same views. If one can’t measure the VTF then put a large break atop of your cartridge and just enjoy. :-)

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dominik
Poland
Posts 48
Joined on 09-14-2008

Post #: 75
Post ID: 11613
Reply to: 11612
Picture of proper Time-aligned
fiogf49gjkf0d
dynamics.jpg

MINGSU,

"Time-aligned is an impossible task from my point of view.  How can one perfectly time align different drivers?  Align to what precision? mm, inch, cm or ft?  5%, 10%, 30% time align? Align to the tip of the cone or middle of the cone or the end of the cone?  Or to the beginnng of the throat entrance or the end of phase plug?  "


You are really Goto dealer????



Dominik


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