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11-04-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 51
Post ID: 12144
Reply to: 8385
Amplifier for SL600s
fiogf49gjkf0d
For anyone who's interested, I run my SL600s with a Rotel RHB-10 power amp, very successfully, I think. I tried them with a number of SS amps, and none of them did the job quite like the Rotel.

(I did buy a tube/valve amp for my main system though - a Berning Siegfried 300B... from Merlin!)

Mani.
11-05-2009 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 52
Post ID: 12146
Reply to: 12144
Do not use your tube amps with SL600!
fiogf49gjkf0d

Do not even try your tube amps with SL600!

The SL600 is very low sensitivity and if you drive it with more or less powerful SET amp then you will ruin SL600. I have destroyed 6 (six) of SL600. A 5 minutes  of driving SL600 with 8W-10W SET as reasonably high volume and you will never get proper HF from SL600.

What happens is that low power SET will unavoidably clip driving this type of load. Even if some people can’t hear the negative auditable consequence of clipping but the act of clipping itself creates a huge amount of HF harmonics (over auditable range). Some tweeter and crossover can hold it but the SL600 can’t. No, you will not burn you tweeter but you will overheat it once and then the speaker will always gave a very idiosyncratically -bad HF.

What you drive SL600 then stay above 80-100W into 8R. If you drive SL600 with an amp over 2W and sub 50W then NEVER make SL600 to play loud.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 53
Post ID: 12152
Reply to: 12146
No tubes SL600s
fiogf49gjkf0d
No, I wouldn't dream of driving my SL600s with the Berning. My understanding is that with their low sensitivity and lowish impedance, the SL600s need current. The Rotel is capable of delivering 150A into 0.1R (for short 10 microsec bursts), and seems to drive them very well. (I picked up an absolute mint condition RHB-10 for around $1200.)

I will be using the Berning to drive a pair of Zu Druids >150Hz or so, which I'm hoping to set up in the next few weeks. But I can't help thinking that I'll go for DSET and 3-way horns >150Hz eventually... Having moved into a new house, I now feel I have the room for this.

Mani.
11-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 54
Post ID: 12154
Reply to: 12152
The Zu Druids monitors.
fiogf49gjkf0d
It is interning that Zu Druids was mentioned in context of this thread. I have a local guy what lives a few blocks away have Zu Druids and I happened heard them quite a few times. They have reported 101dB sensitivity and more or less high impedance but I would not feel that they are too much SET friendly. I fill that SET level of power makes Zu Druids a bit sluggish and they need rather 50-60 Watt.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 55
Post ID: 12213
Reply to: 12154
Zu Druid and SET
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, I totally agree. In my old place, I had the Druids working in FR with the Berning Siegfried 300B, and they sounded exactly as you say.

But I'm hoping that the Berning will cope better driving the Druids with a high-pass filter set to around 150Hz (using my Pass XVR1 x-overs). I'll be able to try this in the next few weeks.

As I alluded to before, I'm at risk of becoming a DSET convert - it's all very well having a nice low-powered amp, but what the hell do you use with it? Are there any decent high-sensitivity FR speakers out there? Or is this simply physically impossible?

Mani.
11-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 56
Post ID: 12221
Reply to: 12213
The misleading about the Zu Druids’ SET friendliness.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 manisandher wrote:
As I alluded to before, I'm at risk of becoming a DSET convert - it's all very well having a nice low-powered amp, but what the hell do you use with it? Are there any decent high-sensitivity FR speakers out there? Or is this simply physically impossible?

I do not know. My local guy told me initially that Zu Druids are 110dB sensitive and high impedance. Hearing it I lent to him my full-range Melquiades to try. He has a few other PP and SET amps, so I thought with 110dB sensitivity and high impedance my no-feedback Milq will be running the show. He kind of liked Milq initially but what he reported was not what I expected and it in my view it was confusing.  Another day I visited him; we did some changes in Zu Druids (more need to be done) and tried a few different amps. It was clear the Milq was not the best candidate as it was dynamically straggling to drive Zu Druids. He has some kind of 30-40W tube PP that did much better job. That made me to do only and to learn that Zu Druids are 101dB. In really it might be even less as those hi-fi companies lie for am few dB and it become a common practice. Furthermore in LF the Zu Druids have perhaps 90dB efficiency as then use port and what the port begin to become affective the no-feedback SET would die.

I still, can’t figure out Zu Druids. I would heavily highpass it to use with SET or drive it with 50W SET, preferably with feedback. Something the level of Lamm ML1 might be a good candidate for them to try. If you look out there then you will see anybody promote Zu Druids as some kind of wonder that might be perfectly used with flea-power amp. This is why people attracted to them I guess. However, I do feel that it is a bit stupidity to promote Zu Druids as a SET friendly loudspeaker. It might be a good speaker for the money but not for use with SET. In 2006-07 the industry whores created a lot of hype about Zu Druids. I do not know if it was worthy or not but I know that fact that they were pushed as “$3000 solution that can be driven by SET full-range“ was very inaccurate.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 57
Post ID: 12223
Reply to: 12221
High-passing the Druids
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I still, can’t figure out Zu Druids. I would heavily highpass it to use with SET...
Do you think 150Hz is too low with a 7W SET?

In all honesty, I think I was heavily influenced by the Zu Druid 'hype' myself. I had bought the Berning (without really thinking too much, really - it seemed like a good idea at the time!) and was then stumped as to what to use with it. I didn't have space for horns (although I do now), and the Druids seemed, from what I had read, to fit the bill.

But now that I've got the Berning and the Druids, I feel obliged to at least try making them work together...

Mani
11-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 58
Post ID: 12224
Reply to: 12223
In your case it is hard to predict anything.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 manisandher wrote:
Do you think 150Hz is too low with a 7W SET?

In all honesty, I think I was heavily influenced by the Zu Druid 'hype' myself. I had bought the Berning (without really thinking too much, really - it seemed like a good idea at the time!) and was then stumped as to what to use with it. I didn't have space for horns (although I do now), and the Druids seemed, from what I had read, to fit the bill.

But now that I've got the Berning and the Druids, I feel obliged to at least try making them work together...

I do know, Mani, it is hard to say. My crossover strategy is not to cross where is it necessary from logical point of view but where it necessary from sonic point of view. In practical terms it means that you need to look at the quality of you complimentary upperbass section and to listen what acoustic system and amplification cases the octaves of your interest better. Also, you have that freaky Berning  Siegfried. I mean “freaky” because it is not a regular amp that is more or less predictable to a degree but Mr. Berning‘s own OTL switching creation. It is god or bad – it is know only for the people who use it – and it is much unknown to me how it behaves driving the Zu Druid’s port. I have local guy with Berning  amp but he has a conventional  non- freaky Berning. In your case it is hard to predict anything.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montepilot


Boston, MA.
Posts 42
Joined on 12-13-2007

Post #: 59
Post ID: 12225
Reply to: 12223
Druid's & Frankenstein
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have the Zu Druid's which Romy has referred to. I purchased the speaker's based on the presumption that their high sensitivity and impedance would be perfect to run SET amps.  After having read the great success Arthur Salvatore had running the Frankenstein 8W SET amps with Israel Blume's full range speakers I thought it would be an excellent match.  Initially the combination worked out well.  When playing music that was not dynamically challenging the combination was quite satisfying.  However when I played large scale symphonic music the underpinnings of the orchestra was missing and I felt the amps were struggling to perform.

I was curious how more power would affect the performance.  An opportunity became available for me to purchase David Bernings EA-230 stereo amplifier at a modest price.  It is rated as a 30W triode amp. A friend who is very familiar with David Bernings amps provided a box of NOS tubes to roll in place of the stock Yugoslavian tubes.  The new tubes provided a quite audible improvement in all parameters.

The extra power from the Berning made a noticeable difference in performance.  What was surprising was that this push/pull amp was not very far behind the SET in transparency actually they were very close.  This was extremely puzzling to me.  I expected that the extra power would allow large scale orchestral music from clipping or distorting but I did not expect that a amplifier made and designed in the early 1980's would perform this well in comparison to the 8W SET.  This seems to run against the "established" way of thinking.

Currently I have both amps set up in my system which allows easy switching between the two.  I have not been able to settle on one amp over the other.  On certain music I like the Frankenstein amps on other music I like the Berning.  Switching between the two amps provides me quite satisfying musical enjoyment that I have not experienced in a long time.  However I would like to have an amplifier that provides the best characteristics of both amps to completely eliminate switching between the two.

My opinion is that the Zu Druids can be quite satisfying speakers if they are given the proper amplification.  I agree with Romy that the specifications and hubbub that the speakers are SET friendly is stretching things a bit.  I will be interested in pursuing the suggestion to "heavily highpass" the speakers.  If this makes them more compatible with my current amps it would be a win win situation.

Rgs,

montepilot


"It's like an act of murder; you play with the intent to commit something"--Duke Ellington
11-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 60
Post ID: 12226
Reply to: 12224
Sealing the Druid's port
fiogf49gjkf0d

OK, I see.

Actually, I was planning on using the Druids with their ports sealed. Bad idea?

FWIW, I have a pair of Wilson Benesch Chimera speakers (the UK-based manufacturer, not to be confused with the 'famous' US one) that I'm hoping to use for upper and lower bass duties, i.e. disgarding the HF driver (and the built-in passive x-overs). I've just got a feeling that the ABR-loaded upper chamber might work very well from 70-150Hz or so. I intend to block the downward firing ports of the lower chamber, and push these drivers 'hard' <70Hz.

The Chimeras have average sensitivity, so I'll use the amplifiers that I currently have knocking around - a Pass Aleph 4 for upperbass and a couple of Hypex class D amps for the lowerbass.

Hopefully, I'll manage to get something half-coherent coming out of this hodgepodge. If not, DSETs and horns will be on the agenda sooner rather than later.

Mani.

11-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 61
Post ID: 12227
Reply to: 12225
Another Berning with the Druids? Small world!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Montepilot,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'll certainly let you know how I get on high-passing the Druids... with and without sealing the port.

Mani.
11-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
unicon


Posts 74
Joined on 10-14-2009

Post #: 62
Post ID: 12229
Reply to: 8121
Monitors again
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 Romy the Cat wrote:
...To substitute SL600 original tweeter with anything else, would it be Revelators, Diamond or made from Faberge Eggs is like to make a movie with Humphrey Bogart and ask busboy form a nearby Chinese restaurant to re-record the Bogart’s dialogs. The SL600 tweeter with pure copper dome and phenolic suspension was probably the most perfect tweeter even was made (sonically), with only disadvantage in sensitively department.
romyio.
most monitors serve dry decay. and they cant do anything right below 100hz they blow it they just cut it .
u may like it short time. but im worried if your ears can enjoy them.

im little late but i suggest you hearing a pair of wharfedale diamond 8.3 (its 2 way floorstanding and ported)
ok when u finish laughting, give it a try ... . i tested the pair(fq response, room response, decay, waterfall).  it sounds great and not exhibiting alot with room character.
u can count on them . label 1 as monitor and use it .
just wanted to be help.
11-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-16-2007

Post #: 63
Post ID: 12230
Reply to: 12226
Zu
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy can you tell us what you thought of the Zu loudspeakers, I spent an afternoon in their company recently, they were being used with a 25 watt PP Luxman, I believe.

Keith.

11-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 64
Post ID: 12231
Reply to: 12230
I do not care about monitors anymore, I sick with the MiniMe.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks, unicon, I know nothing about the Wharfedale and I do not really looking for monitors anymore. In fact my monitor quest ended up to be catastrophe and if I know then what I know now I would not do it and would just buy off a pair of vintage active Mackie's monitors and it would be it.

Keith, if you spent an afternoon with Zu loudspeakers then why you ask me what I think about them? You know, man, you with your interests keep trying to convert this site into Audiogon. I do not like it. The

Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-16-2007

Post #: 65
Post ID: 12232
Reply to: 12231
Becase
fiogf49gjkf0d

You have an opinion on most things ( whether you have heard them on not ) I thought you would jump at the chance to pronounce on the Druids, seemingly not.

11-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 66
Post ID: 12233
Reply to: 12232
Keith, let it be the last conversation.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Keith, you are increasingly boring with you absolutely unhealthy interests in audio. What going to be next – you will be adding the Zu loudspeakers to your product line and promote them that "the Cat did not shit on them"? If you still do not understand that you are not able to form a worthy challenge/interest with you questions then this site is something that you need very much stop to read and preferably do not post. Please, your juvenile interests very much annoy me and I wonder why I need to open a branch of AA at my site. Please, demonstrate some respect and do not let yourself to talk.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 67
Post ID: 12234
Reply to: 12226
Each Driver According to Its Ability
fiogf49gjkf0d
Mani, I have long run an 8" Lowther DX4 down to 150 hz, over 2nd order high-pass.  My impression after plenty of listening is that I wish I could cross it at ~ 400 Hz.  The "problem"is not simply how "low" the 8" driver will go but it is also a question of the relative "balance" of harmonic development.  IMO, the <8" driver just doesn't "develop harmonics" evenly (appropriately) at a 150 Hz "center" point.  Rather, it develops more upward-tending harmonics than downward-tending harmonics at this "reference" "primary" frequency point.  I hope that makes sense to you.

Best regards,
Paul S
11-11-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 68
Post ID: 12240
Reply to: 12234
Balance of 'harmonic development'
fiogf49gjkf0d

Hi Paul,

Could you help me understand what you mean?

Are you saying that even without a high-pass filter, a <8" driver has an imbalance of 'harmonic development' above and below 150Hz... and that this is not the case above and below 400Hz?

If we go for a <8" driver high-passed at 150Hz, could we not compensate for this phenomenon by having a >8" driver low-passed at 150Hz?

In any event, the Druid has a 10" 'full-range' driver that I'm hoping will be quite 'happy' down to 150Hz. Strangely, my upperbass driver will be a 7" driver (the one in the WB-Chimera's upper chamber)! Perhaps not the best solution for 70-150Hz duties... but I'm just working with what I have. Although no doubt challenged, the 'harmonic development' will presumably at least be even between 70-150Hz.

Mani.

11-11-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 69
Post ID: 12241
Reply to: 12240
Driver's Worth by Weight
fiogf49gjkf0d
Mani, I am not saying that any driver (let alone any collection of drivers...) will ever be entirely "correct" in terms of acoustical instrumental timbre, no matter the frequency range it attempts to address.  I am saying that the sonic "weight balance" of an 8" driver is "more correct" at "musical" 400 Hz than it is at "musical" 150 Hz.  IMO, in terms of harmonic balance and timbre, it would be better to high-pass the 8" driver at closer to 400 Hz and run a bigger driver from, say, 100 Hz to 400 Hz.  I will eventually try something like this myself, if you wait long enough.

I like the 10" driver a lot better than the 8" driver at 150 Hz.  In fact, I have long said that - other factors being equal - the 10" driver does a better rendition of timbre than the 8" when used in the usual "FR" applications.

Do I understand you are asking 70 Hz from a 7" driver?  Who knows for sure, but I would never suppose this would be worth a fig, and very hard to believe that its harmonic development would compare to the "more comfortable" 10" driver.

Some contrapuntal thoughts on this, including LF, are in the "speakers for use with a powerful SET" thread.

Best regards,
Paul S
11-11-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 70
Post ID: 12242
Reply to: 12241
7" driver in ABR-loaded chamber for 70-150KHz duties
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, this may well end up being a total disaster. If so, I'll just use the Druids FR with the Aleph4... until I can find a satisfactory solution.

Meanwhile, I'll have a read through the 'speakers for use with a powerful SET' thread.

Mani.
11-13-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
KLegind
Posts 34
Joined on 04-03-2008

Post #: 71
Post ID: 12255
Reply to: 12221
Zu Druid
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 manisandher wrote:
As I alluded to before, I'm at risk of becoming a DSET convert - it's all very well having a nice low-powered amp, but what the hell do you use with it? Are there any decent high-sensitivity FR speakers out there? Or is this simply physically impossible?

I do not know. My local guy told me initially that Zu Druids are 110dB sensitive and high impedance. Hearing it I lent to him my full-range Melquiades to try. He has a few other PP and SET amps, so I thought with 110dB sensitivity and high impedance my no-feedback Milq will be running the show. He kind of liked Milq initially but what he reported was not what I expected and it in my view it was confusing.  Another day I visited him; we did some changes in Zu Druids (more need to be done) and tried a few different amps. It was clear the Milq was not the best candidate as it was dynamically straggling to drive Zu Druids. He has some kind of 30-40W tube PP that did much better job. That made me to do only and to learn that Zu Druids are 101dB. In really it might be even less as those hi-fi companies lie for am few dB and it become a common practice. Furthermore in LF the Zu Druids have perhaps 90dB efficiency as then use port and what the port begin to become affective the no-feedback SET would die.

I still, can’t figure out Zu Druids. I would heavily highpass it to use with SET or drive it with 50W SET, preferably with feedback. Something the level of Lamm ML1 might be a good candidate for them to try. If you look out there then you will see anybody promote Zu Druids as some kind of wonder that might be perfectly used with flea-power amp. This is why people attracted to them I guess. However, I do feel that it is a bit stupidity to promote Zu Druids as a SET friendly loudspeaker. It might be a good speaker for the money but not for use with SET. In 2006-07 the industry whores created a lot of hype about Zu Druids. I do not know if it was worthy or not but I know that fact that they were pushed as “$3000 solution that can be driven by SET full-range“ was very inaccurate.

The Cat


Initially I thought the Zu might be an interesting speaker in the context of tube amplification, however I tried the fullrange driver approach and I have misgivings about it...

Anyhow, the industry rag Hifi World (with whom I have a hate/love relationship) did a review of the Zu a few years ago. The content of said review I think is irrelevant, however there were measurements of the speaker done by Noel Keywood and they showed a much lower sensitivity than advertised. I believe it to be in the low nineties. The frequency response also looked suspect. I see if I can find the review when I get home from work.

best

PS. I do not express any opinion on Zu sound as I am unfamiliar with it. In a certain context it might be good.
11-13-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 72
Post ID: 12256
Reply to: 12255
Another tweeter and another midrange
fiogf49gjkf0d

 KLegind wrote:
Initially I thought the Zu might be an interesting speaker in the context of tube amplification, however I tried the fullrange driver approach and I have misgivings about it...

Anyhow, the industry rag Hifi World (with whom I have a hate/love relationship) did a review of the Zu a few years ago. The content of said review I think is irrelevant, however there were measurements of the speaker done by Noel Keywood and they showed a much lower sensitivity than advertised. I believe it to be in the low nineties. The frequency response also looked suspect. I see if I can find the review when I get home from work.

best

PS. I do not express any opinion on Zu sound as I am unfamiliar with it. In a certain context it might be good.

Yep, lying about a few dB sensitivity it looks like become a standard practice nowadays.  About the Zu measurements. They have a first order filter in tweeter and it killed some here in the middle of MF, I do not remember where exactly. I did measure what then show in term of response and it was very clear that the tweeter was kicking one octave further then it has to be. There was very characteristic gap between one driver have already rolled of and another did not kick in yet. I played with polarity but it was not the case. If the Zu were my then I would drip the crossover pains at least for half octave but no one know if that horny Zu tweeter will like it. Well, I would use probably another tweeter… of another MF driver that would go an octane of two higher. The low nineties sensitivity is what I would expect from Zu Druid, based upon how they sound, probably 93-94dB. With this sensitivity they need as much “live” from tweeter as they can get, so I understand why they were afraid to drop the tweeter crossover. Probably they need to use another tweeter…. or another midrange…..

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-13-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 73
Post ID: 12257
Reply to: 12256
Jumping ship
fiogf49gjkf0d
It seems like I should just abandon the idea of using the Druids... and trying to get some sort of coherent integration with my WB-Chimeras (acting as the lower- and upper-bass units)... and running the whole hodgepodge with totally different amplifiers (makes and topologies).

I absolutely hate selling hifi components - the only reason for selling something would be because I don't like it... and I find it really difficult to then pass it on to someone else... I kind of feel disingenuous doing this. But perhaps I should just bite the bullet.

At some point I'd like to start a thread asking for ideas on how to go about setting up a DSET / multi-horn system. Are there any threads here that I should read before doing that?

Mani.
11-13-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 74
Post ID: 12264
Reply to: 12257
The "Whole System" Approach
fiogf49gjkf0d
Mani, I am not talking about the Zu when I say that there is little chance of just buying and plugging in any given ready-made component into any given system and getting Music, ever. If anyone asks me, I always say, think of speakers-amps-room as one "factor" in an integrated system, and try to build from there.  Basically, if you can't [over]load your room correctly, then you are pretty much stuck in the chute no matter what you do from there, on.  

The idea of "mix-n-match" "hi-fi products" is one of the "smartest" (and worst) things the "audio press" has ever worked up and sold to the "audio consumer".  Presently, this idea not only underpins all current audio magazines, but the success of this idea is literally the hinge upon which any current "audio publication" swings.  Of course, they could never have done it without plenty of help from the Morons®, who are both their life blood and their beasts of burden.

Likewise, do not ass-u-me that just moving to the EXTREMELY DIFFICULT horn/DSET mode will result in quicker gratification.  As crazy as it sounds, no matter which way you go, you have to somehow "hear it before you build it". IMO, there is literally No Way to simply "assemble a system" that makes Music using some lucky combination of "bought goods".  Part of you simply must be invested, and that is the part that you wind up building on; your "Foundation", if you will.

Don't worry about selling stuff you "don't like".  To another Moron® it might be the Legendary Stuff of Dreams.  Be honest about what it is; simply hold your current opinion.


Best regards,
Paul S
11-14-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 75
Post ID: 12269
Reply to: 12264
Zu's interesting, but not with flea amps
fiogf49gjkf0d
Mani at al.
I have a paid of zu druids. Running them with 15W amp (d-class) and it is not enough for high level, although it does better than you expect. The soundstage sensitivity measurement was 97dB, but their test did not load the driver correctly. They suspended it in the air, and the bottom (which has a vent) should have a flat surface next to it about 1/4 inch. I suspect that that would increase the sensitivity somewhat, although I don't know if it would bring it all the way up to the asserted 101dB.
They are not horn substitutes, but they do some interesting audio things. Directly coupling a driver to an amplifier is interesting both sonically and, I think, musically. The speakers are very directional in my overly large, high ceiling room, so I position them with a fair amount of toe-in. Thus, I get very little time smear, which clarifyies the attack, but it also does not feel like the room is being fully loaded as it might be with different speakers. Local constraints mean I cannot experiment too much more with position. On axis it sounds special, off axis it is nice, but not special.
One nice feature is that they do not do barrel-roll treble, although I fear that the new version, with lower sensitivity and a ribbon tweeter is a step in that direction.
The tone in the midrange is surprisingly good. This part of tone was revelatory to me.
All in all, I cannot understand why a speaker with such ragged frequency response does not sound worse. I have no idea how to understand how above average dynamics, and below average ragged frequency response, sums to what I hear.
Thinking of new amps. Have no idea how to judge sensitivity. Short term leases, as discussed elsewhere on the site, would go far to increase education level.
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