Antonio J. wrote:

… looking like the Kemp's unit. But that's provided the input electricity is still under 5% of distortion. They also state that that performance is under linear load, so it might be possible that using chokes or trannies loading it would change performance for the worse.

It is absolutely irrelevant how regenerators work again resistive load – it never will see resistive load.

Anyhow, I would like to make a few general comments about APS and APS-like regenerators. As I understand ASP unit derives from commercial wildly available class “On-line” regenerators. There are literally dozens brands and hundred model out there. The prices wary from many factors, with power rating being a major factor. Generally commercial UPS units of 1050W (as APS is rated) range from $450 to $1550, the bigger name and the more features make higher price. Interning is that the guts of ALL those unit are absolutely identical and most likely the all brands are being produces by 3-4 Chinese sweatshops and then juts re-branded by final “manufacturers”. The APS unit that I dealt with is in the very same boat – is a generic commercial UPS unit juts slightly optimized for audio applications.

What dose it means “optimized for audio applications”? Perhaps some parts changed, perhaps heavier EMI filtration, less noisy operation and deactivated alarms. It does not sound as a lot but in realty there is (or might be) much more. You might go over many different UPS units and you will confirm that they all “sound” different and not necessary correct and according to my own attempts not appropriate at all.  Now let for a second forget about ASP double or triple price and think about what should be though – about Sound. The entire idea to buy a regenerator from APS, PS Audio, Acuphase, Kemp and other is because thy have allegedly conducted the research and evaluations and by nature of own reputation they assure the correct Sonic performance of their products. The Lamm ML2.0 has pars and labor that has no more value then Cary, Conrad Johnson or Audio Research but if you experienced and understand the sonic distinctions between Cary SET and Lamm SET then the ridicules price difference between of Lamms and Carys become quite logical.

So, my point is that I do not care if one or other company trade their regenerators and that I might get the same or near the same cheaper somewhere else. There is many Class AB power regenerators that are being use in medical industry and they are way cheaper then PS Audio units. Still the whole point to deal with companies like PS Audio and APS is because they underwrite (or at least suppose to underwrite) the Sonic Results. Unfortunately, so far, PS Audio and APS do not assure Sonic Results at more serious level then credulous and naive demands of audio “weekend boater”…

Paul S wrote:

Dirty ground effects have remained a problem for me even with a special ground dedicated to my system, and I believe this is caused by varying ground potential and also inter-component "cross-talk" via the AC lines.  I have been able to change and even lessen audible-frequency noise, etc. by playing with ground; but I would like to hear from someone who has +/- tamed the cross-talk-type noise and shifting-ground pollution.

Paul, this subject has popped up multiple times but absolutely disagree with it. There is no problem with noise ground in audio as anyone who has any basic understanding of subject and a pair of ears does disconnect playback form main ground. I never have seen a playback that trying to fight with electricity and who still use the wall’s ground.

buzz wrote:

I haven't read this entire huge thread, so pardon my intrusion. I was wondering if you have tried to regenerate 120v by turning a motor by the shaft of another motor. We use that little trick in the commercial electric industry to generate 3 phase power when only single phase is available. The wave-form that I've seen generated really depends upon the quality of the converted motor used as a generator. But without looking critically at it, it seemed to be a perfect sine. (Good enough for industrial 3 phase, which isn't saying much)

Yes, BuZz, other and I talked about the motor-generators, in fact this direction is something that I am mildly pursuing now. Living in center city it is not as simple as you understand as those units are noisy. Still, there is a fairly small rotational frequency converts that I might try to adopt for my needs.

The biggest problem with rotational mechanical regeneration devises is that they will all sound different and it is not easy to explore which one will be “good for sound”. You can’t talk with sales reps about sonic quality of the motor-generators and you will never figure out from their specifications what is important. Furthermore it is not a satiation that you can go to a store and have 20 motor-generators and you can pick one that sounds right. This is no sonic trial for those things….

I hope sometime a person who do audio and who work with those motor-generators would do a some own research and come up with observations or recommendations, perhaps starting own company selling home-adopted audio-rated motor-generators. Here is a British 220V phase converter that drives 3-phase generator with switching capacitors.

Romy the Cat wrote:

... So, my point is that I do not care if one or other company trade their regenerators and that I might get the same or near the same cheaper somewhere else. There is many Class AB power regenerators that are being use in medical industry and they are way cheaper then PS Audio units. Still the whole point to deal with companies like PS Audio and APS is because they underwrite (or at least suppose to underwrite) the Sonic Results. Unfortunately, so far, PS Audio and APS do not assure Sonic Results at more serious level then credulous and naive demands of audio “weekend boater”… Rgs, Romy the caT

Paul S wrote:

Romy, of course I have a dedicated "ground" line, but I have never used nothing but that ground for a system's "neutral" leg, as well.

Romy the Cat wrote:

I just watched a film about the construction of the Dubai’s famous Burj Al Arab Hotel. The program told that the engineers come across the problems with high harmonic distortions of electricity that powered up the Hotel (220 suites with 14kVa (!!!) consumption in each suite, all on dimmers). They use an interesting method to fix it. They read the harmonic distortions in real time and then they inject the same contra-phase distortions into the power lines, effectively killing all distortions from power lines and restoring the sinewave's shape. It works like the active noise cancelation systems Bose uses in their headphones. That might be a very interesting direction to look...

http://www.shadaly.com/continuous_feed-forward_ac_voltage_regulator_6653824.html

There is an commercial devise that operates on above principle:

http://www.exactpower.com/products/ep15a/index.html

http://www.exactpower.com/products/ep15a/reservepower.html

http://www.exactpower.com/products/ep15a/feedforward.html

http://www.exactpower.com/products/ep15a/specifications.html

This principle should NOT provide any decupling from the grid at all but it theoretically should kill the harmonics in real time. I have no idea what sonic consequence the principle has. Did anyone ever try it for Sound?

Studer makes a wide range of off grid solutions. One example is used for sensitive recording, a Studer AJ400 pure sine wave inverter connected to a car (or better quality) battery putting out 400 watts. The AJ1000 can be ordered with an optional built-in solar charger for connection to a solar collection array. They come in either 230Vac/50Hz or 120Vac/60Hz.

http://www.studer-inno.com/SITESTUDER/page/ANGLAIS/DescriptionE/AJBrochureE.PDF

The XP, Compact and HP Compact lines are automatic sine wave inverter and charging all-in-one. Apparently they can also be connected up to solar, wind, etc. collection array.

http://www.studer-inno.com/SITESTUDER/page/ANGLAIS/DescriptionE/HPCompactBrochureE.PDF

Brings up visions of peddling a power generating exercise bike feeding the inverter while listening. Kind of like this guy...

I think the price of the AJ400 is around $400.

The Carl Sagan’s suggestion that he would rather "know than believe” is good tool for sales personnel, priests and pitchers and the politicians of nowadays. Since perception is really it is imposable to “know” with any degree of certainty without subscribing to the coordinate system where “knowledge” is projected upon.  The “subscribing” to a coordinate system of knowledge however is the believe itself that Carl Sagan rather do not use…

Anyhow, Glaesemann, thanks for the link. There are very many companies that produce DC-AC inverters, over the course of the last few months I spoke at least with a dozen of them. They all are “bottled from the same barrel” – have a since generator, D-amp and the personnel that are absolutely clueless about sonic characteristics of the electricity the inverters output. Also, all of them made extremely cheap and comply with absolutely minimum specification demands.

I still feel that Class D amps in power line are very perspective direction but I am not wiling at this point to engage in any new company that produces the similar to APS inverters. The APS it looks like as indifferent to sonic consequences of their units – no one at APS listen them or even have idea what to listen and no one in there have any inspiration how their modification and alternations impact the sonic performance of the their units. I keep working with APS, trying them to fix whatever they and I already have buy they so far much more inert then I would like them to be. I am not sure that they are fertile ground but I have no reasons to believe the others would be different. Meanwhile I would like to make APS to make the one that I already have to behave up to the APS own standard – I think it will be a good step (at least would enable me to use the thing)

Regarding the guy on the bike – I have a better solution. That is truly a Perpetuum Mobile solution for generating infinite amount of problem-free electricity:

A month or so ago I came to an occasion to fish a large isolation transformer. It is not that I believe in isolation transformers as all my former experiments with them delivered quite gruesome sonic result. However, since the APS people are still not wing to do anything sonically reputable and keep me in the there a back burner off their interests I decided to knock in any alternative door is available to me. Ok, ok, let me to put it in a different way: it was available and it was cheap – the frugality is my main life-guideing principle. Also, my desperation with electricity leads me to celebrate my stupid optimism over my sense of really and experience so I went for the transformer.

Anyhow, it is a large 3000W toroidal isolation transformer made by Amveco

http://www.amveco.com

for the needs of medical industry and used in laser machine. It was sitting for a while in my basement and I never tried it but today, since the new Super Milq is singing, I decided to give to this transformer a chance.  To make the long story short: it was not juts horrible but it was beyond any imaginable negative expectations. Immediate huge collapse in dynamic, complete loosing of any texture form lover midrange and below, stripping harmonics from upper region: the sharp, boomy and compressed sound – what could be more fun?

Paul S wrote:

Please talk me out of trying the "new" PS Audio "Ultimate", which features "improved" "regeneration" AND "isolation".

 It might be not a bad idea, since the PS Audio sell honesty: 30 days trail period and money back if it does not work out. With all my bitching about the PS Audio regenerators I never had this new revision. However, I did very careful monitor what Paul and PS Audio users says about the performance of the new PS Audio regenerator and I did not hear what I wo0uld like to hear. I would like them to identify and to name what was WRONG with sound in the OLD PowerPlants but not one did it. all of them sing the serenades to the new Premier model, calming the it took the advantage of the PowerPlants even further but none of them said honestly what was wrong with the PowerPlants’ sound. I can see two possibilities in 2 cases:

1)    PS Audio and the entire community of their users are ignorance and deaf Morons who are able to be satisfied with very little.

2)    My personal demands for “quality of sound” way exceed what PS Audio is able to serve and therefore the PS Audio juts has no idea what I am taking about whan I accurse their products in sonic problems.

Either of the cases is true it is not too encouraging, to me personally, to try the new PS Audio Ultimate Premier. I still would like to do it sometimes but I do not want to lift the heavy box and drag it back to the post office… I am getting lazier dally… Still, I do not know: lazier or more experienced…

It is true and the PP does have the blacker background and wider soundstage. However, the people who promote PS Audio PowerPlants never explained, or perhaps learned themselves, how much value in that truth.

The blacker background is not the virtue itself as the “blacker background” is just a background for unfolding the musical events. If the PowerPlant makes the background blacker but ruin the depicting of the event at that background then who the hell needs the “blacker background”? All that hysteria about blacker background is a pure surrogate of audio propaganda that would like to sell to Morons quantive representation of sound reproduction .

The same is with the idiotic “wider soundstage”. Why the audio fools stress only width of soundstage, ignoring any other attributes? Because the width is profitable to sell via the means of media and mass propaganda…

I did not say how my saga with APS Pure Power regenerator finish but it never finished. Since the end of the last year the regenerators is sitting in my closet and I have sent the unit’s main board to APS people for the “revision” as I do not feel it was useable. I still feel that the direction that APS are trying to go hugely perspective and I wish they found how to do the Class D regenerators to be stable, and producing right sound.

It looks as the APS has revision of their board that might fix the problems that they had. I do not have a lot of hope but who knows they might did it accidently. The dilemma that I see is that the APS engineers do not work on the specific sonic problems that I pointed them out but they works against one list of improvements. It is valid list and they might do good job with this improvements but they are completely clueless about the sound of the units and the main purpose of this unit. The Chinese guys who as I understand are responsible for ingenerating aspects of the unit do not even acknowledge that problem with the unit. It is very frustrated as the only contact I have with APS is via the Canadian Director but he does not look like have enough pull (or desire) to address the problems with sound as long the unit is being sold well. So, that hope I have so far that the Chinese folks doing their planed modification might accidently to fix the problems that cause of the APS generator to have sonic aggravations.