JANDL100 wrote:

For me, the success of a Beethoven performance comes down to interpretation, not orchestral sound.

Not for me. I look for the “whole package” and not only in Beethoven. I do not relay collect “music” but rather “events” and in my view an “events” is a very fine melt of…. and interpretation, and recordings, and the “circumstances of the play”, and zillion attributes that create “Total Sound”.

In my search for Beethoven’s Sound I went over many stages and today I perceive Beethoven’s Sound as I describe above. The revelation of “how Beethoven shell sound” come to me when I was traveling in Germany a few years back and I was trying to sniff off the dust of Bavarian castles and haze of Pinaceae forests the “tone” of Beethoven’s music. I got that feeling then and from that moment I look for fulfillment of that feeling each time what I hear Beethoven.

I was searching for year a musical regeneration of that sensation and a few years ago I found it. I do not say that it is the best Beethoven performance (big subject!!!) but it is as close to my vision of Beethoven’s TONE as I even have heard form recorded performances or live attendance.

A wonderful Hungarian conductor Carl Melles performed in 90s a cycle of all Beethoven symphonies leading Brunswick State Orchestra. It was not the New Jersey Brunswick band but the “Staatsorchester Braunschweig” – probably the oldest orchestra in the world, founded in mid 16 century.  That orchestra played Beethoven during Beethoven's time…  Anyhow, I do not know what the reason is but the Sound that Braunschweig has in own sound that "ultimate Beethoven’s Sound" that I was looking in Beethoven. I got a CD of Brunswick's Beethoven1-3 symphonies (RAM 59511-2) and then bought all the rest Beethoven CDs Braunschweig ever recorded.

Be VERY careful with Carl Melles interpretations – it is painfully slow. It I so slow that you wish to die… but Braunschweig play it so slow because they are a very unique orchestra that … actually can do it. To play Beethoven so slow you need tremendous amount of “filling tone” of certain nobility… hear yourself what Braunschweig does and you will understand what I mean. If you willing to try but will not able to found Braunschweig recordings (practically imposable in US) then I might upload a demonstration file in here.

Try to listen Anthon Nanuet’s orchestra after the Carl Melles’ orchestra. With all wonderful play of Slovenian orchestra their “tone” sounds more like “toy Beethoven”… or as a Haydn band plays Beethoven…

On the second note – the Braunschweig recording on RAM label are all “live” and you need to hear the discipline of THOSE audiences – it is nothing short of phenomenal.

Romy the Cat wrote:

A wonderful Hungarian conductor Carl Melles performed in 90s a cycle of all Beethoven symphonies leading Brunswick State Orchestra. It was not the New Jersey Brunswick band but the “Staatsorchester Braunschweig” – probably the oldest orchestra in the world, founded in mid 16 century.  That orchestra played Beethoven during Beethoven's time…  Anyhow, I do not know what the reason is but the Sound that Braunschweig has in own sound that "ultimate Beethoven’s Sound" that I was looking in Beethoven. I got a CD of Brunswick's Beethoven1-3 symphonies (RAM 59511-2) and then bought all the rest Beethoven CDs Braunschweig ever recorded.

OK, boys, I doubt that it is possible for anybody to found Melles/Braunschweig recordings but I would like you guys hear what I was taking about, as the Melles/Braunschweig orchestra has the balance and style of play is my vision of how Beethoven shell be played.  Among whoever Beethoven I heard the only Melles orchestra can care that stingingly tasteful tempi, to hold those delicious poses, to play elegantly-soft and have absolutely mandatory for Beethoven lower-range “might” and confidence. What is most important is that Melles/Braunschweig does absolutely nothing impressive, showy or glitzy. They do not attack listener with overly articulated phrases as US orchestras do.  In Braunschweig each instrument and each section plays in fantastic harmony with recognition of own might and they do not do to show it off.  Pay attention how hugely respectful Braunschweig play, how much it let the “music to go”.  The Braunschweig play does not incarcerate music into presentational restrictions and juts let it very organically flow. It is like a ball that juts occasionally pushed/directed and the rest time just let to roll at own inertia. Also, pay attention the tonal balance of the orchestra, the relationship between the balance of the orchestra and the performing space’s natural acoustic and how Carl Melles used it all together with his tempi. It is what I call – the ultimate critical mass necessary to create the Beethoven’s chain reaction. The Melles/Braunschweig re like that old bull that has not needs to rush – they know where they go, how they go and what they will be doing when they arrive….

I have a tendency after I wasted another $100 listening my local BSO at Symphony Hall to return home, to warm up my playback and to play some recordings; the recordings that reinforce me that orchestral sound is not a sequence of sonic fasts performed by playing style of Broadway musicales…

I was thinking which fragment to show for you guys. Since this conversation derived from the Nanut’s Eroica then here is the opening of the Eroica’s their movement. It is 16/44 file and you can play if anywhere. Save the file on your machine first – do not play it off my sever. It is around 34 Meg

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Audio_Files/B3_Melles.wav

JANDL100 wrote:

Re: the Mahler "Nanut set" - I think you might find that symphonies 2, 3, 7, 8 & 9 are not by Nanut after all.   But please let me know if I am wrong about that!

JANDL100 wrote:

Wow - Romy, that's quite a find. Nanut in Mahler 7  8 9 10 ?! - I MUST get them!  I have the other Nanut Mahler recordings already. Sadly, I can't find the set in the UK.  It's useful to know it exists though. And Romy, have you listened to Nanut's Bruckner 8 yet? ....   ;-)

I have nowadays a lot of new music, coming from different sores, a lot of more then I can to “processes”; I have perhaps 50 CDs that I “need” to listen. I do not juts listen them one after another but I need to develop a certain state of internal readiness to listen one or peace of music, I am slowly doing there… I did not listen your Bruckner 8 yet as I have been not “tuned” for this work for the last few days. It will be there…

Yes, I did listen the Mahler 5 by Wyn Morris. It was good but it further reinforced my why I ultimately do not like Mahler. BTW, did you hear Hermann Scherchen leading ORTF Orchestra performing the M5? If you do not then you might get it, well worth it…

BTW, I got Nanut and Ljubljana Tchaikovsky. It was not just horrible but atrocious. I actually through away the CD from a window of my car…

clarkjohnsen wrote:

… but the Third Concerto with Lars Vogt was decidedly different and very tasty! The pianist, instead of just doing runs and spinning notes in repeated passages, injected linguistics into them, making every note in an otherwise seemingly pedestrian sequence say something….

JANDL100 wrote:

Yes, please - I would very much like copies of Nanut conducting Mahler 7 8 9 & 10 - that would be wonderful!   (I will put together some more, interesting CDRs for you too!).

JANDL100 wrote:

I am not sure I would go so far as to throw Nanut's Tchaikovsky out of the window (!)

JANDL100 wrote:

Yes, please - I would very much like copies of Nanut conducting Mahler 7 8 9 & 10 - that would be wonderful!   (I will put together some more, interesting CDRs for you too!).

Romy the Cat wrote:

JANDL100 wrote: Yes, please - I would very much like copies of Nanut conducting Mahler 7 8 9 & 10 - that would be wonderful!   (I will put together some more, interesting CDRs for you too!). Jerry, I forgot to ask. I have sent to you quit a while back a pile of CD, including the Nanut’s late Mahler symphony. Did you have a chance to get/listen them? The caT

JANDL100 wrote:

Romy the Cat wrote:  JANDL100 wrote: Yes, please - I would very much like copies of Nanut conducting Mahler 7 8 9 & 10 - that would be wonderful!   (I will put together some more, interesting CDRs for you too!). Jerry, I forgot to ask. I have sent to you quit a while back a pile of CD, including the Nanut’s late Mahler symphony. Did you have a chance to get/listen them? The caT Hi Romy - No, they have not arrived yet.   International post can be slow at the moment - I sent some CDs to Australia - they took 6 weeks to arrive!

JANDL100 wrote:

The Barbirolli / VPO Brahms 4 is waaaay too slow for me though - I just cannot get into the music when it's played that way.   I do like some "slow" classics though - I love the way Celibidace slows a lot of music down - I heard a Celi concert of the Brahms Requiem live in London's Royal Festival Hall about 25 years ago that took about 85 minutes !! - absolutely mind-blowing, just unbelievably wonderful - sorry, but Barbi is not in that class, imo.

I disagree, this Brahms 4 does insultingly slow but it has own very own merit, When we hear it for a first time it feels like a slow move but eventually you might grow on it. it is not about an absolute tempt but how the rest of the play is mapped to the given selected tempo. Barbirolli/VPO does here absolutely phenomenal job and I pretty mu consider it as my “the best Brahms 4”. Well, perhaps not the best but the most interesting.  As it allow to look much deeper and much longer into nuances. It is like when we about to have sex with unattractive woman: we would like her take her cloth off and jump into the bad for actions. In a contrary, what the woman very attractive we would like to prolog the process of undressing and foreplay as long as possible as it gives to us an esthetic pleasure to observe what is going on. The same with Barbirolli playing this Brahms 4 during the festival… Though I do admit that I am big sucker for Barbirolli generally and he is my one of the most beloved conductors.

JANDL100 wrote:

The Nanut Mahler I have had a brief listen to so far - hmmm ... the sound is a bit unpleasant, kind of harsh and forward, far from ideal in Mahler -  I'm going to have to play with some equalisation here, I think.

Yep, I do not like the rest of the Nanut Mahler at all. That Mahler 6 I think was a big accident….

JANDL100 wrote:

By the way - have you had a chance to listen yet to the Shostakovich Piano Quintet played by the Trio di Torino that I sent.  Must admit that I think it is very special!

Yes, it was good; I was looking the original CD to buy but was not able to found it. I always buy the original CDs if I like the CDRs

OK! - I will listen to the Barbi/Brahms 4 some more!

Romy the Cat wrote:

JANDL100 wrote: By the way - have you had a chance to listen yet to the Shostakovich Piano Quintet played by the Trio di Torino that I sent.  Must admit that I think it is very special! Yes, it was good; I was looking the original CD to buy but was not able to found it. I always buy the original CDs if I like the CDRs The caT

 You can find the DSCH CD here on eBay .... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CD-Shostakovich-Trio-di-Torino-Piano-Trio-no-1-2_W0QQitemZ200196281297QQihZ010QQcategoryZ43581QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

---

Jerry

Romy the Cat wrote:

Yep, I do not like the rest of the Nanut Mahler at all. That Mahler 6 I think was a big accident…. The caT

Jerry,

Why you are so afraid of the notion of accidentally good performance – it always happens and I do not see in it any sign of negativism. Since your introduction, listening many of the Ljubliana recordings, I would  say  that  I rather dislike then like the Ljubliana orchestra. Still, at it is apparent in Mahler 6, they have their moments. You feel that Bruckner 8 and Beethoven 7 were also good, OK, they were for instance - anything else? :-) I do not think that it would be a lot more. I am sure  that someone who likes and specializes in Ljubliana and Nanut would knew that specific moments in the conductor and the orchestra live when they demonstrated better results. I am not intimately familiar with Slovak musical scene, so I get the things as they are.

I do not judge Nanut as “more World Class” of less “World Class”. Boston Philharmonic is a crappy semi-armature orchestra but the last Monday’s broadcast they demonstrated the last movement of  Bruckner 5  that would turn any orchestra in the world to be jealous … Those accidental successes do happen, nothing wrong with it but they would not make me to buy more BPO recordings.

I am very compulsive of musicians consumption and after listening quite a few of Nanut interpretation I would say that he is not a conductor whose work I would buy juts because it was conducted by Nanut. I might say that if I have an interest in a musical peace and somebody like Barbirolli or Scherchen  conducted the peace then I would buy their performances juts because they was Barbirolli or Scherchen  (just to name a few) . As good as Nanut is, I did not develop a  feeling that really need the Nanut’s take on specific music. I can buy “another recording”  of a work juts because it was made by Rafael Kubelik, or Koussevitzky, or Myung Whun Chung, or Mravinsky, or Crauss. I do not know if the Nanut’s interpretation migh be something that I would be specifically searching.

Perhaps we mean different things by the word 'accident'.  For me, an accidently great piece of art would be if I painted things at random on a canvas and it 'accidentally' turned out to be identical to a masterpiece by Rembrandt.  Pure chance.   I could try again a billion times, and it would not happen again.

For me, Nanut has shown that he is a World Class conductor because he has repeated this 'accident' quite a few times - Bruckner 8, Mahler 6, Beethoven 7, Beethoven 3 and several more of the Beethoven symphonies.

That is not an 'accident' by my way of thinking.

JANDL100 wrote:

I'm glad the discs have arrived OK.  The Nanut Eroica is good - the Bruckner 8 is GREAT.  You must listen to it soon!