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11-27-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 76
Post ID: 5969
Reply to: 5963
The APS PurePower: the basic misunderstanding

 Romy the Cat wrote:
... I will showily dump in this thread some observations of mine about APS PurePower regenerator...
If you, I, they, we, whoever… consider APS PurePower as just a power treating or regenerating devise then I feel that the whole “kinky” point of this devise might be missed. The problems with electricity are cruel and to address them is very noble task, still PurePower unit it looks like trying to deal with electricity it in a slightly different way than it might be expected. I will be telling about it in my following posts.

We get horrible sound with bad electricity and we are accustomed to blame wrong sinusoid shape, too high harmonics and presence of HF noise in power lines. Then we presume that if we get rid of those 3 factors then we fixed our problems. We do fix sinusoid’s shape, drive harmonics to the sub 0.5% and have no HF noise in power line detectable with most sensitive analyzer… Still, we not necessary have right Sound as a result of our power curing efforts. With that cures electricity we most certainly have better sound from many perspectives but not the sound as it “might be” or “shell be”. In some cases the power treatment/regenerating efforts are not useful and in some cased the treatment/regenerating create more harm than help and none of them is self-sufficiently good and has own NEGATIVE affect to Sound

Take many powers conditioners, power treatment units, active, passive, in-line, parallel, isolation, decoupling…. they all try to make the power better. They all work out from one perceive or another but they have own harmful influence to sound. Some of them have no registerable objective problems – PS Audio Power Plant for instance – outputs a idyllic sinusoid, has ultra low distortion and no noise of any kind. The PP unit does provide literally perfect electricity to playback but… still the result sound of playback driver by PP has numerous problems, and I have heard very many of them. OK, I hear sound compression because the main’s sinusoid is clipped and we all know that it is not good. Should I be happier if PS Audio Power Plant outputs perfect sinusoid and while it does it I still hear sound compression? There is nothing objectively better then the voltage that PP outputs, I measured it many times, I am sure you did it as well. Still, from bottoms to top of the auditable spectra and within each and single level of the Six-Leveled of Listening Benefits ™ the PP devise make my playback to sound wrong. Compression, bass rubberizing, tonal discoloration, brutality of upper region, muddy aura around  notes, lack of micro-contrasts, deformation of TTH characteristics, lethargic dynamics, depersonalization of upper mid, that and many other things has became a basic attribute of me – the urban audio listener. I very much do not disgrace PP, I just bring it as an example of a devise that objectively outputs absolutely perfect characteristics but sonically is absolutely worthless. The Power Plants and other AB regenerators, the isolation transformers, the parallel treatments, the power conditioners, the filters, the resonant stabilizers, the Sola transformers and few other that I have tried do not really resolve the problems but they juts shift one set of problem into other set of problems. Some of those devised do work fine one day but other days when the problems in mains have changed they make playback to sound not acceptable again.

Now is the ridicules part of the ploy – the APS PurePower. This regenerator of course does as much as any other regenerator does – grabs AC, convert it to DC, oscillates new AC and then amplifies that this new AC. However, the surprise is that APS PurePower does not do each of l regenerator’s duties very well.  The AC that it produces is kind of “strange”, the waveform is fragile, the stability is low the harmonics might higher then they might be.  This regenerator is VERY fastidious with load and  has not necessary predictable impact to a given audio component.  So, what is the point? The point is to ask myself if I am looking for better electricity in order to get Right Sound or I am looking for Right Sound without warring what characteristics the electricity would I have. This is not so simple question and until I had a chance to play with APS PurePower I was not able to look at this question from other, very obverse perspective.

What!!! To use a power generator not as juts power redemption unit but as actively sound shaping component? You bet!!!

In my view the APS PurePower is not a good power regenerator – it does a lot of wrong things objectively and I will be talking about them. The PurePower is rather an active element of playback system that actively impose specific sonic signature to playback’s presentation. In context of proper applications of this regenerator and the PurePower’s contributions is exceptionally radical and I would even say innovative.  We are accustom that better power treatment devises take care better or worst about the electricity imperfection and then let audio components to care their duty. It is not how I see the APS unit works: the elimination of common power problems is I would say is just 30% of what I appreciate in APS devise. The PurePower does a few other things and those things are probably the most interesting in Sound that came from PurePower powered audio. I have seen some power treatment devises trying to do those “extra” things: Bybee filters, the multiwaving with PP and few other devises. None of those advances from my point of view were look in right direction. Come on then juts sound poorly and were able to satisfied only audio-teenagers with reference points of Jurassic Park habitants. I will be taking about those PurePower “extra things” in more details as well.

So, a claver reader would ask “Romy, why do you feel that PurePower not just produces better electricity? Why do you feel that PurePower is actively imposing specific sonic behavior to electronics and why you consider that APS unit as some kind Engineer Garin's Hyperboloid that has ability of condense and catalyze specific aspects of playback’s sound?”

Good question. I have no definitive answer but some of “things” that I hear in PurePower sonic influence I never heard form audio that runs from good electricity (happened a few times per year). Those “things” are not something exclusive but they rather are expected and predictable “things” still, those “things” are overplayed atop of “good electricity sound” – very intriguing and in a way invocative result.

Considering some other important factors about which I will be talking later I feel that the APS PurePower devise is an active, sound shaping, invasive element of playback and this generator should be treated this way. Does PurePower address problems with bad electricity? Well, probably it does, at least I am not bothered with them anymore. Still, to look at the PurePower regenerators ONLY as electricity curing devise is, I feel, to have too primitive and too nearsighted view.

Will be continue….
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-28-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 77
Post ID: 5972
Reply to: 5969
The APS PurePower: two aspects of Sound.

As I said in my post above the PurePower has well-defined double-action in its contribution to Sound of playback

The first action is process of power regeneration and getting rid of negative influences of bad electricity. Let from now and on to call it as the “PurePower First Action”

The second action is a process of active injection of sonic particulars into down-line components. Let from now and on to call it as “PurePower Second Action”

That dual activity should be always understood as two separate elements of PurePower’s contribution.

In my following posts I will talk in details about PurePower performance in the First Action and the Second Action, provide some practical guidance how and for what purpose the APS unit might be used (It is surprisingly complex), provide general observations and some further recommendations where I would like the PurePower, or the similar units of competitors, to be.

To be continue,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-28-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 78
Post ID: 5975
Reply to: 5972
The PurePower devise - the First Action

I wrote in “My Playback” section:

"Power-wise, I have 3 dedicated 20A 8ga lines, separate for my amplification, analog and digital chains. I do not use any power devices: filters, conditioners, regenerators, or isolation transformers – none of them work appropriately (have had them all). When Power is good then it good, when it not good then the only solution is to be disconnected from the Grid and to have 10kW diesel-generator up and running, which I unfortunately can’t use in my urban life…. Recently I discovered a world of new contemporary regenerators with class D amplification. I am researching this direction now..."

The “First Action” I proposed to call the APS’s regenerator taking care about all mysteries of bad electricity. The PurePower does here extremely wonderful job. The new voltage gets regenerated and it looks like APS unit has least own sonic influence while it does so. (The Second Action is neglected for now)

If the APS unit is properly used (very important cloth and I’ll talk about it later) then it is the only known to me power devise that has no negative influence to bass (practically all of them do screw my bass), does not affect dynamics (here is where class A/B regenerators suck big time), do not reformat harmonics (god luck with that), do not impact frequency response of powered devises (practically all of them do). The First Action – the Sound of regenerated electricity - is next to perfect with this devise. I say “next to perfect” because the PurePower’s Second Action is very deeply amalgamated with First Action and in some cases, despise of the fact that there is NO MORE BAD ELECTRICITY PROBLEMS but the total resulting Sound might not be where I would like it to be.

I, you, we should not be overly exuberant with sonic perfection of PurePower unit in First Action – that transparent perfection still has own toll – I will talk about it further in my article:  “APS PurePower Survival Guide”. Still, I feel that pretty much only because the PurePower unit PERFECTLY preserves TTH characteristic of powered audio components the APS’s regenerator should be treated as very valuable candidate for admiration and functional imitation. If not the presence of the Second Action then by using the APS’s regenerator the problems with bad sounding electricity might be closed for good.

Rgs, Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-28-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 79
Post ID: 5976
Reply to: 5969
How does Pure Power work?

 Romy the Cat wrote:
If you consider APS PurePower as just a power treating or regenerating devise then I feel that the whole “kinky” point of this devise might be missed.  We get horrible sound with bad electricity and we are accustomed to blame wrong sinusoid shape, too high harmonics and presence of HF noise in power lines. Then we presume that if we get rid of those 3 factors then we fixed our problems. [The PS Audio Power Plant is] an example of a devise that objectively outputs absolutely perfect characteristics but sonically is absolutely worthless. The APS PurePower is not a good power regenerator [but it is beneficial to the Sound.]


It would be instructive to know if:

1) Does the PurePower reduce the effects of "Bad Electricity Days"?

2) What are the subjective benefits to the Sound and sounds that the PurePower makes?

Adrian

11-28-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 80
Post ID: 5977
Reply to: 5975
6 dB worth of something
Romy, this whole report is just too interesting to wait for installments!  I love it that you have found a way to "work with" the "effects" of the APS.  But now I wonder about and I hope you will clearly address:

Whether you use all components on one line via one APS (ie, TT, phono stage, pre-amp and amps).  IF you do this, might it not be a factor in the APS "effects"?  If you don't do it, why not?

Please share more about the very cool fact you mentioned offhand, that with the APS you dropped the injection channel level by another 6 dB!

As it happens, my AC was spectacular for about 1 1/2 hours last Sunday and I learned a lot about what my system CAN do, IF ONLY...  When the sound gets that good I get confused about what to play before it goes away!

Best regards,
Paul S
11-29-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 81
Post ID: 5978
Reply to: 5976
I do not do those “before” and “after” things.
Sorry, folks, I do not do those “before” and “after” things. I have my reasons to put my thoughts in the format I feel works out better for THE thing and if you fell that what I say might worth your attention then you need put up with the ”observation stricture”. Trust me: that structure is not my epistolary preference but something that have own rational. I do not try to make you to have your opinion about the APS unit; I more care to help myself and about my own ability to understand how the APS unit “sounds”. The APS regenerator is quite complex in use, and it is not necessary has a simpleminded ability to demonstrate “before” and “after”. Well, perhaps it has the ability but this level of demonstration dores not satisfies my own interest. Have patience to wail until I finish and some motives and relationally of my “arrangement” will clear for you.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 82
Post ID: 5980
Reply to: 5975
The PurePower devise - the Second Action

 Romy the Cat wrote:
The second action is a process of active injection of sonic particulars into down-line components…..
That dual activity should be always understood as two separate elements of PurePower’s contribution. 

This regenerator’s Second Action inserts into Sound something that I might not call as anything else then “Super Texture”. We undusted what Texture of audio presentation means but APS devise takes that Texture WAY above anything else that I have seen, creating an environment of truly of Extremely Catalyzed Texture. I would not grand any worth to the “Super Texture” – it might be a friend or a foe – I will talk later about it in my Survival Guide. There is thing that are remarkable in the PurePowe’s Super Texture – it’s transparency to harmonics.

What the Super Texture is and where it comes from? I have no definitive idea. The PurePower regenerator is in a way a “radioactive” switching machinery that throw around HF impulses, spreading them via different methods (radio, magnetic, electrostatic, grounds, etc….).  I presume that some of the residual “radioactivity” might leak into playback, affecting it as a very “special dither”. The residual ripples of the PurePower’s sampling raters (20Khz) are relatively high, and well visible on a scope. I presume that because a huge parasitic capacitance of APS unit (the whopping 28V between ground and neutral) that residue of the switching wrinkles leaks to ground and then goes to the cathodes… I have to mention that I made many experiments trying to detect that “wrinkles penetration” and was not able to, at least for now. Perhaps the residual wrinkles are not the reasons of the APS Super Texture, perhaps something else is.

Whatever the reasons of Super Texture are it should be understood that the Super Texture is homogeneous hybrid with PurePower’s First Action (power regeneration) and they are VERY mush alloyed together. Use of APS generator is an ability to manage the intensity of the Super Texture. It is not so straight forward and I will tell about it my brief forthcoming Survival Guide

Do not be under impression that this Super Texture is strictly positive moment in APS. The Super Texture might be us a horrible enemy, in fact in most cases it is, something that converts the Sound f playback into Absolute Sound advocated “frequency pushing”.   The Super Texture is like “Unsharp Mask” in Photoshop – with moderate and restful application it might be very useful and beneficial too but as soon it gets slightly more than necessary it converts a photograph into visual garbage (an example is most of the phonographs at my site)

It is important to note that the “Super Texture Garbage” or the effect of “Overly Applied Dither” that you might get from PurePower regenerator in most of the cases will be VERY welcomed by audio pubic. I heard drooling comments from audio morons about PurePower but I never have seen/heard anyone’s caution tales about the devastating effect the over-application of PurePower’s Super Texture might have to sound. I hope my Survival Guide will be taken under consideration by people who use APS unit or perhaps some others who have different view but better sound would voice their recommendations to me.

Finally, the PurePower regenerator does not address problems of playback with electricity – you will see later on why. However, the APS unit opens a whole new perspective of looking at the things – pre-structuring power in a certain format in order to get certain effects. Have you seen Power Level Injection Channels? Here we go – the APS devise does exactly that. The APS PurePower regenerator did not become my “all problems are off” solution but it becomes a quite valuable tool to shape better sound. I would like to be able to moderate the amplitude of the First Action and Second Action but APS does not offer it. APS, as most of other manufactures care only about functional moments of their units in context of terminally deaf and sonically Moronic audio pubic - it is hardly possible to demand from them any sonic specifics. In the end, after my Survival Guide, I will pass some my recommendations where I would like to see the APS and APS-like devises to go from where they are now.

To be continue next week,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 83
Post ID: 6000
Reply to: 5980
The APS PurePower regenerator – a dead end for now.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Finally, the PurePower regenerator does not address problems of playback with electricity ..
The last few days I had a chance to look deeper into the nature of PurePower’s Sound, particularly in an ability to moderate the regenerator’s Second Action - the Super Texture. The more I look into it the more and more I was turning disappointed. I got disappointed by what my current APS unit (the unit #5 that I feel is quite different then the unit #1, though I am not convinced) and in major ways with the underlying design flow of APS regenerators. It is SHAME that with all PurePower’s tonal and harmonic neutrality and transparency in it’s First Action I found that APS is hardly usable because the forth Second Action…. :-( I do have written a quite large PurePower Survival Guide that covers connections, AC polarity, sensitivity to specific load, grounds, transparency, noise mitigation and a few other moments but I decided do not post it. I do not feel it would be right considering that in the end of my experiments and concluded that “as is” the APS PurePower regenerator can’t be used in my playback or for a more or less serious sound generally.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 84
Post ID: 6006
Reply to: 6000
Pisser...
AC was good all weekend, but I still pine for a solution for the rest of the time.

Wouldn't it be nice if the "engineers" designed and built these things based on audible performance criteria rather than design briefs based on theory and "measurements" taken by machines (and interpreted by Morons)?

Best,
Paul S
12-03-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 85
Post ID: 6013
Reply to: 6006
Waiting for a miracle to come.
Yes, it is pisser but it looks so far that APS is failing at much more prosaic and much more “earthy” level. I do not know if they would go for a “better” PurePower regenerator as it looks like they sell fine whatever they  are selling. I ma sure will talk to them... Anyhow the problems that I have discovered in APS have nothing to do with audible performance vs. measurements – all APS problems are still within the realms of rudimental electricity. Still, the direction and results that APS has demonstrated I found very perspective and I presume that if the PurePower idea is DONE PROPERLY then it might be VERY interesting.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-03-2007 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
peter foster
Australia
Posts 40
Joined on 02-16-2006

Post #: 86
Post ID: 6021
Reply to: 6013
DC Offsets in mains power supply & using toroids for power transformers

Dear Romy, regarding your efforts to solve variations in mains power supply, there has been an interesting thread on RAT related to the use of toroids as power transformers that morphed into a discussion about the level of DC offset in mains power supply and possible solutions.  I thought you might be interested in the gist of the discussion because it contained much useful information, as follows.  Regards, Peter Foster.

---

Mains are polluted everywhere. Typical DC offsets are 0.8 to more than 3V (!) in Europe. I guess that North America is as bad - or worse.

---

So, aside from hair dryers on 'half power' what causes it?

** Asymmetrical loads on the supply - dummy. Don't much care what they are. Just depends what is going on around where you live.

---

DC offset is a big problem nowadays, with more and more switching power supplies w/o proper power correction in every home (it's even worse in offices). As toroids work very close to core saturation, even a small amount of DC offset wreaks havoc.

---

Mains DC offset exists in all countries - only a matter of luck of your local AC supply has no DC offset. The effect is dramatic on a toroidal power transformer.

Example: 300 VA, 240 volt 50Hz AC toroid (unloaded).

#1 Offset free supply:
I mag = 15mA rms / 25mA peaks.

#2 Supply with 1.2 volts DC offset:
I mag = 715 mA rms / 3.9 A peaks.

In case 2, the transformer is heavily saturating on one half of each AC cycle PLUS is drawing 171 VA - while OFF LOAD !!!!!!!! BTW 1.2 volt DC offset created by using a Black and Decker 1600watt ( handyman) hot air gun, set to half power.

---

Phil's heat gun set to half power could be a problem, as it likely uses a rectifier diode to conduct on say positive peaks of the powerline only.

** Correct.

And if your house wiring has enough Thevenin equivalent impedance (American powerline 15A outlets are around 1/4 ohm)

** That figure is around 0.5 to 1 ohm in Australian ( 240V ) homes.

Running the hi-fi on its own dedicated branch circuit from its own circuit breaker in the breaker panel greatly reduces that offset from that heat gun. There the powerline impedance is more like 1/40 ohm, for a 150 amp service. Or maybe 1/20 ohm if your power company cheaped out on wire size...

** Some folk have around 0.5 volts DC offset most of the time.

---

Dunno if there is any way to complain about it to the energy suppliers.

** There isn't because it isn't part of the tariff to have no DC offset. At least in the US, the tariff-the statutory rate you pay the utility they agree to in exchange for the monopoly on power-says what you are and are not entitled to.

---

Mains dc offset isn't a stable thing, and the dc offset is really just slow moving LF content. You'd see what LF shite there is in your mains supply by having a very steep cut LPF with a pole at say 20Hz to remove easily visible 50Hz and harmonics. An LCLCLCLC type filter will do it.

The mains is a noise source due to thousands of users all around you switching things off and on, and with so much continual switching, the result is a mains voltage that rises and falls with its varying shared load. There is a resultant content in all this noise which can be filtered out, and if you had a filter resonant at 0.1Hz, you would see a varying signal at this LF. It is so slow a signal wave that it acts like varying DC, but dc that varies is NOT dc anymore, eh.

The average load at your house is determined by the generator and wiring from generators to you, and all the transformed down high Z of the network. But at any given time, there are so many folks drawing power that there is the equivalent of a giant low value resistor shunting the mains supply. If the average input current is 4A to your house, the load of your house = 240V / 4 = 60 ohms. 4A might seem a lot, but 2 ppl in a house average around 1000 watts 24/7/365.

1,000 houses sharing the same mains wiring gives a load of 0.06 ohms, I = 4,000 amps. Noise generated across town won't appear near you because the wire resistance across town is considerable, and switching transients get smoothed out by inductive nature of the wires. With the shared R load being so low, the amount of L needed to attenuate HF isn't much. However, because the mains are effectively a huge informal antenna array, there is a largish RF content present.

If a negative swing lasting an hour before its swings the other way, don't ask the utility company for a refund. Every silly question has already been heard across the counters of power companies... Just wait until we all switch to electric cars and nuclear power stations. We will be seeing much more work for electrons to do.

---

This company in the Nederlands has a box incorporating the ( well known ) solution to the DC offset problem.

http://www.kempelektroniks.com/PowerDCXTerminator.aspx

Make sure to click on the CRO screen to see a neat simulated demo.

---

The above link raises the question, how is DC offset reduction achieved in the 1.2 kg item offered?

** By simply AC coupling the PT primary to the AC supply. The weight must be all in the (lead) alloy box.

---

Do they just have a pair of large value series capacitors in series with mains active and neutral?

** I would say back to back caps shunted by a string of diodes. That's the usual way to block DC.

---

But does not an ordinary isolation transformer remove the dc at the sec?

** Of course it does. But if you run a toroid isolation transformer close to saturation, you've just moved the problem.

---

The above link raises the question, how is DC offset reduction achieved in the 1.2Kg item offered? Do they just have a pair of large value series capacitors in series with mains active and neutral?

If there is a varying level of dc, it really means you have an added LF wave between active and neutral. The neutral is at ground potential as it is tied to earth at the house earth connection. Hence the jittery level of the mains wave shown on the CRO.

But does not an ordinary isolation transformer remove the dc at the sec? And in any case, the very low F "dc offset" is small and should not have a serious effect on the maximum Bmax of the PT.

But mains voltage does change in amplitude from minute to minute, and raw Vdc after rectifier diodes changes continually, so depending on mains 50Hz voltage variations, and music caused dc load variations on the PSU from largely class B amps, the transformer and rectifiers are seeing a varying load at all times.

Transformers should be designed to take a 10% extra input voltage indefinately. I forget the exact words of the Australian Codes, but imported stuff is supposed to comply.

Many trannies would hum quite badly and perhaps thermal out if they were forced to accept 264Vrms instead of the usual 240Vrms we are supposed to have.

Chinese made trannies designed for 220Vrms don't fare well, as do US mades with 230V connection but rated for 60Hz.
And here we have 250Vrms measured most days. It isn't a nice sine wave like the one shown in the CRO pic at the above URL. What we have here is a triangular wave with flat crests which have a total length of about 1/4 of the whole wave cycle lengh. It means the equivalent of maybe 10% odd order harmonic distortion.

And BTW, I loath toroidal trannies because most are so poorly made. Good ones are well varnished internally, potted, and don't hum because sufficiently high TPV are used to keep Bmax less than 1 Tesla, and thus be able to pass tests for over-voltage without saturation effects making them noisy or hot.

These good toroids are of course larger and heavier than what we see in the crummy budget audio gear which is 95% of what is foisted onto the public. Makers don't like paying the costs when once you get above a certain quality criteria, welded E&I cored PTs are the better thing for cost and performance.

---

The majority of commercially designed transformers are designed to run with Bmax at whatever figure gives the wanted rise in T, and with about 3A per square mm for current rating in the wire. Toroidals are run at maybe 1.3Tesla, and right on the onset of saturation.

Current spikes can be seen in the wave form with no load. So if B is increased 10% with a 10% mains voltage rise, the spikes are larger. However, the core material can be such that it still won't get hot.

With load, the current wave is dominated by the load current, and the spikes due to saturation effects are not so obvious.

Presence of DC, say 1V would to me seem like a heck of a lot of DC and very unusual for mains supplies, but if present, the dc current through a low resistance P winding could cause Fe magnetization and more serious saturation current spikes. But any other E&I transformer could also suffer similarly, depending how close to saturation is it running. But because so many mains users have transformers connected to the mains at any given time, and because the resistance between active and neutral is so low, the presence of Vdc generated by stray devices connected tends to be very low.

The simple way to make sure any tranny stays cool, does not hum mechanically, and can sustain some DC and not hum badly with a rectifier on the sec feeding large C with Si diodes is to design the tranny with B < 0.9Tesla, which means most makers would have to increase copper turns about 30%. Bean counters alweays say farkin no to this, and to get them out of their silly mindset, should have a decent sized E&I shoved where the sun don't shine. If the turns are increased, there has to be more room for them, and the wire must be thicker to maintain copper resistance and the copper losses. OR the Afe core size must be increased 30% which reduces B 30% for the same turns per volt.

There majority of toroids available are wound as a cheap lightweight alternatives to old fashioned E&I trannies, but I am very reluctant to use any of them because they all have Bmax far too high, and although they rarely get hot, they can be noisy when rectifier output is needed.

If they are designed with B < 0.9 Tesla, the weight/size and cheapness advantages dissappear because such a toroid is a special order.

The right way for a toroid to be wound is with finely woven cloth insulation material placed over the core to prevent sharp edges biting the wires, and then all layers have no overlapping turns, and have a layer of insulation tape wound on between consequent layers of wires. Once completed, the transformer is soaked overnight in varnish, and drained of excess then baked to cure the varnish to make good solid bond between core and layers of wire. The woven material allows the wet varnish to soak into the tranny; plain polyester film does not.

Proper construction as described is never ever done with budget toroids bought by furquit hobbyists trying always to avoid costs.

I'd always use toroids if I could find a source of cheap decently constructed types, but none are to be found whose cost is less than good E&I.

The design spec of say 0.85 Tesla will allow a mains tranny made for 220V 60Hz to be used with 255V and 50Hz, where the B would then be 1.11 Tesla. If designed initially for 1.3T, an adverse condition could give 1.8T, and serious saturation problems.

Audio gear should never have Bmax in power trannies higher than 0.85 Tesla. Bean counters never agree though. Hence all the shit we see that I will NEVER buy.

Chinese electrical items often seem to be rated for 220V only, and suffer badly with the 255V we see hear sometimes.. Chinese soldering irons get way too hot here and last only a month if you are lucky and need a box with resistors inside to drop the voltage at the iron. Then they last more than 18 months.

Some chinese amps don't like the 255V applied to the power trannies, because the B+ rises too high, but most have cheap E&I cored trannies which appear to take the missmatch of mains V OK.

---

Toroids don't have an air gap, even the most carefully stacked E-I laminations have a residual air gap, are you telling me that doesn't change their characteristics?

Indeed the toroid spiral strip core does have a different characteristic to fine and well stacked E&I lams. Not only is there a microscopic air gap in E&I lams, or C-cores, but there is a change in grain direction of the Is and Es where they butt together.

C-cores don't have such a grain direction change. But they do have a cut and join. The effect of the butt join with E&I and cut and polished join in C-cores reduces the maximum µ available. With the GOSS toroid core, perhaps max µ = 40,000, and if the same material is used in E&I lams perhaps max µ = 17,000, and with C-cores could give perhaps above the 17,000.

NOSS material is non oriented grain steel with Si content but is never usually used for toroids, although it could be, not used for C-cores, but is used in cheap E&I cores and has a max µ when stacked close of around 3,500. NOSS if used for a toroid might lift the max µ to 5,000. All these steels are "special", and some more special than others, but they behave differently depending on the app. The frequency of saturation is only very slightly higher with GOSS than NOSS, but GOSS saturates more sharply than the NOSS. GOSS cores have much lower magnetizing currents than NOSS, and hence the GOSS runs cooler.

GOSS with high µ is now routinely used in E&I mains transformers where the cores are not interleaved at all but all Es are just butted to all Is, and the two bundles are machine welded. This saves an enormous amount of Joe's time spent stacking in the Es and Is to interleave them fully. People don't like doing the job Joe does; its very boring to spend all day stacking laminations. Some cores get machine stacked. but welded is cheaper. The resulting µ of the welded cores is well below what could be achieved with maximal stacking, but its adequate to get losses to be low enough.

Even ARC use mains trannies with welded cores.

---

As promised yesterday, here are some more measurements as per your suggestions...and some others as well:

The Plitron toroid that I am using for the testing is an 80va unit wound for 20-0-20 volts at 2.0 A rms, and having a single 115 V rms rated primary.

I characterized it first with no DC offset, just to see how close to the limit it is designed in terms of saturation. The meter used for exciting current measurement is a Fluke 87 type III ("true" RMS...it measures only the true RMS of the AC component of the waveform. To obtain the true RMS, you need to obtain the DC component separately, square it, add it to the square of the AC component that the Fluke 87 measures, and then take the square root of the sum.) The exciting current waveform is observed using an HP465A AC only current probe. The peak value of the exciting current is designated Ip.

Voltage adjusted with 1.5 kVA variac:

Vin (60Hz) Imag Ip
volts rms mA rms mA peak

105 8.1 10
110 9.2 12
115 10.6 18
120 13.2 24
125 17.8 50
130 31.5 100

The exciting current waveforms start off at 105 volts in as what look like slow rise time square waves. This is due to the large amount of 3rd harmonic in the Imag. You don't normally see this behaviour in EI transformers as the flux density cannot be run this far into the knee of the BH loop without experiencing unreasonably high core loss. But with all the flux in the toroid being in the "easy" direction of core magnetization, you can really honk the flux right up there without excessive core loss, and that's exactly what Plitorn did with this design.

By the time you reach 115 V the Imag waveform shows some "tailing up" just prior to its falling edge, indicating a closer approach to saturation. Note the relationship between Ip and Imag. At 105 Vin, Ip is only 1.23 Imag. By the time 115 V is reached, Ip is now 1.70 Imag. At 130V in, Ip is 3.17 Imag.

Although opinions (and measurement standards) in the industry may vary as to the exact onset of saturation, there is no doubt by any definition, that I have ever seen published, that we are soon to be in trouble if our input voltage exceeds 130 V. This toroid by the way was sold for use in North America where nominal AC line is typically 120V. It is not unusual to encounter 130V in some areas during light load periods.

Now for the offsets:

Offsets are measured using a low pass filter consisting of a 100H inductor and 20uF polypropylene cap. The voltages are measured with a Beckman DVM.

There is no variac used during these tests as its series impedance in addition to that of the AC line tends to greatly increase the DC offset. We do not want to exaggerate the problem.

1) Measure offset using 40 W, 120 V incandescent bulb with series 1N5406, measure Imag.

Connect the 40 W bulb and diode on same branch circuit. Voffset = 47mV dc
Ioffset = 47mV/3.6 ohms = 13.06mA dc
Imagac (13mAdc offset) = 28.5 mA rms , Ip (offset)=100mA peak

Total Imag = sqrt(Imagac^2 + Ioffset^2)= 31.4mA rms

And remember that from our previous measurements on the toroid:

For 120 V rms in, Imag (no offset) = 13.2 mA rms, Ip (no offset) = 24mA peakSo for the single 40 W bulb, the peak current increases by a factor of 4 and the RMS current by a factor of 2.4.


2) Now let's make this look like a cap input filter load, still with a half wave rectifier and try to keep the load POWER the same as in the simple half wave rectifier and 40W bulb example.

This will require our 1N5406, a filter cap of 1500uF (to keep ripple across the load insignificant) and a load resistor of ~1445 ohms. After building this up, here are the results:

Voffset = 30mVdc, Ioffset = 30mV/3.6ohms = 8.33mA
Imagac (8.33mA offset) = 20mA rms, Ip (offset) = 100mA peak
Total Imag = sqrt(Imagac^2+Ioffset^2) = 21.7 mA rms

At first this does not look like as bad a case as the 40 W bulb and diode, which also looks like a 20W load but with a much longer diode conduction angle. The peak current however in the toroid primary is just as bad, so the threat of saturation is just as serious...particularly if the AC line voltage were to increase to 125 or 130 V under this condition.

If I had a better current probe, like one of the modern Tektronix units, I could better examine all of the peak currents and give some better answers. Using a shunt resistor to measure currents here is not an option as an isolation transformer in the AC line has sufficient impedance to really exaggerate the DC offset, and floating the 'scope is not an option for the sake of safety.

3) Now what about if the DC offset source is on another branch circuit on the same leg of the 120-0-120 V supply?

Using the original 40W bulb setup on another branch circuit, the effects on the toroid were reduced substantially.

Voffset at transformer = 12mV dc, Ioffset = 3.33mA
Imagac(3.33mA offset) = 14.3mA, Ip (offset) = 42mA
Total Imag = 14.7mA

Examine the results in the first table and compare.

4) Hair Driers etc.

I have two hair driers here. One is a less than 2 years old and causes no DC offset on either of its two speeds. The other is a Braun drier that it still in excellent shape that I have had from my university days in the early 70s. It still works well but produces 500mV of offset on the AC line when used on its low speed. Judging by how long mine has lasted, I'll bet there are still quite a few of these out there, owned no doubt by parsimonious old farts like myself.

I also have however, quite a recent model of heat gun, a Balck and Decker Heat and Strip Model 9756. This thing, on its low speed produces 1.2 V dc of offset, causing the Imag of our toroid to exceed 1 amp rms! Even when used on another branch circuit, the Imag in our toroid hits 140mA rms with peaks of 600mA. So asymmetrical loads on the AC line can be a real problem if a toroidal transformers is used on the same branch circuit. Stating that such loads don't exist, or should never exist, is just wishful thinking.

---

12-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 87
Post ID: 6035
Reply to: 6021
The DC offset and Kemp Electronics Regenerator

Yes, Peter, thanks, good reading.

I research the DC offset and toroids subject as well. I think it is not as bad as it is portrayed. First of all it is not complicated to make toroids with gap, sure slightly more expensive. Also if do not save money and wind toroids with a large space current then DC offset will not necessary through the cores in saturation with moderate DC offset. In the super Milq I decided to stay with IE transformer for plated and toroids for filaments. The Milq filament transformer is kind of much larger then it needs to be but also Milq uses indirect heated tubes. I wonder if the IDHT heater do have a transformer with a few millisecond pre-saturated core… then so what?

BTW,  the company the you point out in your test has an interesting products:

http://www.kempelektroniks.com/PowerStation75.aspx

Did anyone use it?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
peter foster
Australia
Posts 40
Joined on 02-16-2006

Post #: 88
Post ID: 6036
Reply to: 6035
Powerware 5115 UPS boxes
Dear Romy,

I do not know who uses the PowerStation75 so I cannot say whether it is helpful.  I use the Powerware 5115 UPS boxes for managing the mains power supply [details on www.nps.com.au under Products and Line Interactive UPS (Corporate)].  This model does not require a fan so it is silent.  Each UPS box uses its own dedicated branch circuit for its mains power supply.  We are supposed to be supplied with mains power supply of a nominal 240v 50Hz but there is a lot of fluctuation.  Also we live in a semi-rural area so not many hair dryers operating nearby and we do not have nuclear power stations on the grid.  I have six of these UPS boxes for my sound system components with each box supplying 3 outputs (18 outputs in total).  The 2 metre power cables were all supplied by UPS as well and they are industrial quality but inexpensive.  I also have an amplifier that has custom hand wound E&I transformers which are over-engineered for the amplifier.  Sometimes, even with the use of the UPS boxes the mains power supply is so poor that the fixed bias points on each of the eight KT90EH output tubes can measure around .49V dc instead of an optimum .70V dc.  Even then, I do not detect change in the sound of the system up to 105db at one metre.  I do not know if the sound would change above that level because it would be unhealthy level.  I am satisfied with this setup.

Regards, Peter Foster.
12-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 89
Post ID: 6037
Reply to: 6036
The Line Interactive UPS
Peter, the Line Interactive UPS devises do not isolate decuple playback form mains in real time. They might have filters, suppressor, suckers, even resonance filters but they do not generate a new sinusoid. Perhaps I misunderstood you: are you powering your playback from many of your UPS units running them from butteries?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
peter foster
Australia
Posts 40
Joined on 02-16-2006

Post #: 90
Post ID: 6039
Reply to: 6037
Voltage waveform & amplifier power supply
Dear Romy,

The UPS units are being used in their normal way, as line interactive.  The voltage waveform supplied by the Powerware 5115 is a sine wave.  This is described briefly in the manual and was important information for me pre-purchase.  At the time of my investigations, I consulted a number of people with expertise in the field of mains power supply regulation and amplifier and transformer design and came to the conclusion that the minimum requirement was for a perfect sine wave output, no fan and for a unit that was proven with large scale commercial server systems.  After receiving one unit and testing it the results were acceptable and the cost reasonable so I then purchased more.  There is also a manufacturers warranty supplied for equipment connected to the UPS units.  But that is only part of the story.  The other parts include use of a dedicated branch line for each unit and perhaps even more importantly the design of the amplifier power supply itself which can do much to supply consistent performance with inconsistent mains power supply.  The schematic for the amplifier power supply is described at http://www.turneraudio.com.au/8585-amp-october-2006.html if you are interested.

Regards, Peter Foster.
12-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 91
Post ID: 6041
Reply to: 6039
Line-interactive unit and current gyroscopes

 peter foster wrote:
The UPS units are being used in their normal way, as line interactive.  The voltage waveform supplied by the Powerware 5115 is a sine wave.  This is described briefly in the manual and was important information for me pre-purchase.  At the time of my investigations, I consulted a number of people with expertise in the field of mains power supply regulation and amplifier and transformer design and came to the conclusion that the minimum requirement was for a perfect sine wave output, no fan and for a unit that was proven with large scale commercial server systems.  After receiving one unit and testing it the results were acceptable and the cost reasonable so I then purchased more.  There is also a manufacturers warranty supplied for equipment connected to the UPS units. 

Peter, I am sorry to inform you but it is not exactly what it is, and I am surprised how people in the fields did not explained it to you. The line-interactive unit buy definition have no own waveform what power is present.  You might Google the definition of line-interactive UPS unit of you might look at my file: (figure #2)

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/PDF/UPS.pdf

As you might see the line-interactive what the power is there work in complete bypass mode and the own DC to AC inverter is not activated. If you put a scope before and after the line-interactive UPS unit then you will see absolutely identical waveform before and after. The UPS unit will filter some HF noise but it is about it. Without the input power the line-interactive begin to regenerate a new own waveform. The quality of that waveform and that electivity for audio is a separate subject. I did test 3 commercial line-interactive UPS units, including two large and expansive – none of them I found were useful, at least as is.

 peter foster wrote:
But that is only part of the story.  The other parts include use of a dedicated branch line for each unit and perhaps even more importantly the design of the amplifier power supply itself which can do much to supply consistent performance with inconsistent mains power supply.  The schematic for the amplifier power supply is described at http://www.turneraudio.com.au/8585-amp-october-2006.html if you are interested.

Yes, I did detect with my own experience that the more chokes in supplies, partially the input chokes the less sensitive amp for electricity problems. Voltage anomalies are just a part of the story. In class A amp the current consumption is constant but current flow atop of voltage waveform, that most of the time is truncated. So, we can stabilize currant without caring about voltage. How? The input chokes that store current and that demonstrate current inertia even if voltage sinks, also chokes are effective low-pass filter against the line noise (thought they do not work at UHF, you would need different chokes for that). As far as I concern, more chokes and higher current make amps less care about power problem. I have written that Super Milq is way less sensitive to power problems then my front end.

Rgs, Romy the cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
peter foster
Australia
Posts 40
Joined on 02-16-2006

Post #: 92
Post ID: 6043
Reply to: 6041
Line interactive UPS & sinewave output
Dear Romy,

Thanks for the information that the sinewave form is only generated when the battery power takes over.  The pdf is a good article.  I did more research today and located a schematic which backs up what you have said despite the company's product description:

"A line interactive UPS contains a regulator that boosts the mains power supply when it falls. It can regulate power to an acceptable level, without the use of a battery, during a brownout or surge in supply voltage. Similar to an offline UPS, there is a short period (ie transfer time) when a line interactive UPS will switch to battery mode during a blackout. Most line interactive UPS units have additional features including sinewave output, enhanced software and connectivity options. They provide a high level of protection, at an affordable price, for corporate applications."

It appears that I should have been more careful in interpreting the meaning of "additional features including sinewave output".  Let the buyer beware, so it is said.

In any event, I am getting useful protection and some regulation and, it seems, the rest relies on my amplifier's power supply design.

Regards, Peter Foster.
12-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 93
Post ID: 6047
Reply to: 6043
The amplifier's power supply
Peter, I wish I had more confidence in the amp's power supply as significant proof against the full range of AC power nasties.  In fact, I have long had the sense that there is such a thing as "over-regulation" where hi-fi power supplies are concerned, at least in terms of sonics, with a sort of homogenized and/or textureless sound one typical penalty.

It does seem like amps are generally less susceptible than front end components, given a similar level of regulation, or "pre-regulation".  I wish I could figure out how to do a decent battery powered phono stage to go with my battery powered DAC and passive pre-amp.

Best regards,
Paul S
12-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 94
Post ID: 6055
Reply to: 6013
The electricity... what to do next?

Well, my ride over the APS PurePower wave did not finish yet. As this point I am convinced that my PurePower unit #5 is also defective. I have a conversation with PurePower people and they will look into it. I still fill that my unit #1 and my current the unit #5 are basically the regenerators that operates and sound differently. Let see what the APS investigation would show.

Also, I passed to the APS people an idea how to eliminate the biggest from my point of view shortcoming of this regenerator. If they go for it, and AI hope they should then it might be a very interesting APS revision and it would give to the APS a momentum to introduce a “new” product. I doubt they might go for it driven by sonic consideration but they might like it as marketing tools to make the Morons who use currently PurePower regenerators to buy “new” PurePower units. If the release of the new PurePower, let call it “PurePower Premier” :-) would be bitter with good white paper and good literature then it might be something that make APS people to consider it as a next move. I do invest into this opportunity keeping my useable and from my point of view faulty operating PurePower regenerator in my storage.

Meanwhile I am still secured, and I have no tools to deal with my crappy downtown Boston electricity.  What would be next to try. The Rotary Frequency Converters? Some of them claim 65dB Nose that is not a lot….  Ron Kemp from Kemp Elektroniks prposed to get his 120V unit for 1295 Euro. It is a lot of money for 75W. I wonder if the price including an opportunity to try how it sound as I have no reference point about the sonic objectives of Mr. Kemp’s company.

I still, very much like an idea of good Class-D amplifier. If I found one powerful 1000W into 8R class D amps I might try to drive it from my generator and will see how it will sound.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 95
Post ID: 6056
Reply to: 6055
Unbelievable
I really can't understand how a company selling a power regeneration device priced well over 2000 or maybe 3000 USD could send you 5 units and being al them "defective". Did I miss anything here?

The idea of the Kemp for the Bidat, CEC and maybe phonocorrectors seems interesting. I could try it myself, but my judgements probably wouldn't be any worth for you.

Regards.
12-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 96
Post ID: 6058
Reply to: 6056
APS, judgment and judgments.

 Antonio J. wrote:
I really can't understand how a company selling a power regeneration device priced well over 2000 or maybe 3000 USD could send you 5 units and being al them "defective". Did I miss anything here?

Nope, you do not miss anything. However, there is some “twist” in the unbelievable fact of the fifth not properly functioning/sounding unit. Let me to explain. I had 5 APS units:

1)     Fully operational. I retuned is in 2-3 days as it did not works/sound well against input-choke PS and at that time neither I nor APS knew that their design can’t to be used against input-choke PS
2)     Turned out to be defective – droved front end but burned out as soon power up was connected. The Super Milq draws 7.2A during its initial start up and has 8A slow-blow fuse in the unit and 20A fast-blow in dedicated line. According to specification the APS unit should be able to handle up to 30A in bypass mode. It is true that the unit #1 was handling the Super Milq’s start up for 20-30 times with no complains.
3)     Prototype unit. Was returned as it sounded like shit, even worse. I usually do not comment publicly on prototypes or experimental units that manufactures send to me but in this case it is different because ASP clams that there is no difference between the prototype and production run. The production units however sounded absolutely different then the prototype. Very strange.
4)     Fully operational and OK sounding unit. Got burned up in 2 days because unknown reasons.
5)     Fully operational unit that I use now. I still am sorry the I got the file unit go as it was, I feel the best sounding among all.

So, from one perspective I did not have a good luck with APS devise but as soon I had problems APS people replaced the defective unit. Does better service compensate a questionably-reliable product? Well, here is where important to understand that I do not give a shit nether about the reputation of PurePower regenerator nor about prestige of APS as accompany. I just do NOT try to make my opinion about a “product” but rather to care about my specific problem with Sound and the ability of this or other tool to address those problems. Yes, I do not like that the APS people too damn lazy or ignorant to deigns in their device a proper protection, properly QA this products and make sure that the released unit meet basic specification requirements. However, among all power devises that I have the only one APS regenerator did deliver (for 2 days!!!) the demanded tonal and harmonic transparency. I am not exactly look forward to buy the ASP stock but rather to use this regenerator to power my front end. I do see a lot of potential in the direction that ASP went and it is possible that if APS people will follow Sonic Objectives then they might end up with a good product. The bugs in their unit? Well, I hope they will trace them… preferably before my warranty expires. My primary concern is now is that my current unit does not perform, sound and might  not be used as the unit #1 was. The APS folks are looking into it. Would I like to have a properly sounding problem-free solution? Sure I would, do you know any?

 Antonio J. wrote:
The idea of the Kemp for the Bidat, CEC and maybe phonocorrectors seems interesting. I could try it myself, but my judgements probably wouldn't be any worth for you.
I looks at the statistics page of my site and it looks like there were zillions Netherlandiams visiting the site. I wonder why they don’t say how the Kemp regenerator sounds. The judgment part? Well, this is an easy part. You have your power devise and plug it in the power lines during the times when electricity sounds very good. You should not have any sonic, perceptible, imaginary, placebo, conscious or subconscious differences between the sound of your playback with and without the power device. It is not sufficient judgment itself but it is already a good start, the start that no one know to me power units can handle. For premature judgment a power device should be treated as a preamp: 

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2589

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-06-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 97
Post ID: 6061
Reply to: 6058
That's why my judgments won't be very useful
 Romy the Cat wrote:

I looks at the statistics page of my site and it looks like there were zillions Netherlandiams visiting the site. I wonder why they don’t say how the Kemp regenerator sounds. The judgment part? Well, this is an easy part. You have your power devise and plug it in the power lines during the times when electricity sounds very good. You should not have any sonic, perceptible, imaginary, placebo, conscious or subconscious differences between the sound of your playback with and without the power device. It is not sufficient judgment itself but it is already a good start, the start that no one know to me power units can handle. For premature judgment a power device should be treated as a preamp: 

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2589

Rgs, Romy the Cat


The electrical supply in my building (I live in an 11th story of a 13th stories building) is very bad, as is in the whole area, which in spite of being residential, has 2 big hospitals around that probably have huge consumption. I have a dedicated line from breaker to the outlet, but I can't have it made from the building's input. In spite of this, I suffer huge voltage swings ranging from 210 to 224V. This caused problems with some gear, not only "sound" ones, but also some devices having big DC offset at its output. I fixed this using a quite big industrial grade voltage stabilization unit, which uses two transformers and a voltage stabilization circuit. It can deliver 1000VA continous and can be delivering up to 4000VA for several minutes before shutting off. This changed the situation and now I have way more stable voltage from 228 to 232V at any moment I measure. The whole system runs through this device. This is just a voltage stabilizator, but not a full new sinewave regenerator, and for sure it doesn't decouple the system from the electrical grid as the APS or the Kemp would do. Soundwise I found this device very transparent, I mean that I wasn't able to determine if it changed a bit the sound performance of the system on good electricity days.
Since I have this unit in the system I haven't looked back. I experience "good electricity" days and bad ones, for sure this is not voltage related but who knows what else. Anyway, the point is that if I used the Kemp, I'd run it after the stabilizator, which could be masking or maybe enhancing the Kemp's features. On the other hand, this stabilizator of mine seems to be sensitive to the type of load, and an acquaintance of mine who's using it experiences problems having a steady voltage when using an autotransformer and a Variac plugged into it. Hence I don't know if the Kemp's unit would affect the performance of the stabilizator, thus affecting the overall result.

Of course I could remove the stabilizator from the system and just trying the Kemp as you suggest on a "good day", but then I fear I'd get back to the swinging voltages and DC offset on the units which weren't receiving their feed through the Kemp. Even on "good days" the voltage is swinging :-(

Regards
12-06-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 98
Post ID: 6063
Reply to: 6061
Constant voltage transformers and supplementary stabilizers

 Antonio J. wrote:
The electrical supply in my building (I live in an 11th story of a 13th stories building) is very bad, as is in the whole area, which in spite of being residential, has 2 big hospitals around that probably have huge consumption. I have a dedicated line from breaker to the outlet, but I can't have it made from the building's input. In spite of this, I suffer huge voltage swings ranging from 210 to 224V.

Which is not really a big deal. The slow voltage fluctuation is NOT something that screw up sound. Sure, if your circuits do not use stabilization (most of SS lo voltage front-end do) then it would offset bias of you tubes moving then in different operation point. I do not recognize is as a big problem.

 Antonio J. wrote:
This caused problems with some gear, not only "sound" ones, but also some devices having big DC offset at its output.

Also, not a big problem as well. If you use EI transformer and the transformer with oversized current then they do absorb DC offset.

 Antonio J wrote:
I fixed this using a quite big industrial grade voltage stabilization unit, which uses two transformers and a voltage stabilization circuit. It can deliver 1000VA continous and can be delivering up to 4000VA for several minutes before shutting off. This changed the situation and now I have way more stable voltage from 228 to 232V at any moment I measure. The whole system runs through this device. This is just a voltage stabilizator, but not a full new sinewave regenerator, and for sure it doesn't decouple the system from the electrical grid as the APS or the Kemp would do.

Hmmmm, it is controversial and all depends of what kind voltage stabilization circuit your voltage stabilization unit has. If it is SS voltage stabilization then it is one mater. If it is resonance stabilizer (most likely) then it is a total different story. The resonance stabilizers have transformer and cap in the secondary where inductance and capacitance create a 50Hz resonance that actually re-generate a new sine-wave. Those transformers (they call constant voltage transformers) not only generate voltage but they also hugely defeat all line noise and so on. I had 3 large industrial resonance re-generators, including 2 of Sola transformer. They surely do “work”, the quality of sound they produce is totally different story.

 Antonio J. wrote:
Soundwise I found this device very transparent, I mean that I wasn't able to determine if it changed a bit the sound performance of the system on good electricity days.

Congratulations, can you name the brand and model of this unit.

 Antonio J. wrote:
  On the other hand, this stabilizator of mine seems to be sensitive to the type of load,
It is what I have with Sola transformers. when you plug then in scope then you see the wave shape change VERY dramatically not only when you add another component but when my Cat walks around my room.

 Antonio J. wrote:
  Of course I could remove the stabilizator from the system and just trying the Kemp as you suggest on a "good day", but then I fear I'd get back to the swinging voltages and DC offset on the units which weren't receiving their feed through the Kemp. Even on "good days" the voltage is swinging

If you use a devise like Kemp, APS, PS Audio, Acuphase  or any other true regenerator and the regenerators do work proporly then you do not need to use any supplementary stabilizers.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-06-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 99
Post ID: 6069
Reply to: 6063
Mine is microprocessor controlled
You can find a brief description here: http://www.salicru.es/index.php?id=1678&L=2 My unit is a RE-1009 2T, which means has double transformer, but it's not the extra noise filtering model which they call NS. Looking at this I'm quite sure it doesn't regenerate a 50Hz sinewave.

When I bought it I was using a SS power amplifier which was DC coupled, so the DC offset due to the voltage swings on the preamp, caused the woofers to move back and forth like bewitched. Sometimes it even caused the power amp to get into protection mode. The stabilizer solved this issue perfectly. Now I'm using different gear, then the stabilizer is not really as necessary as it was then, but since I don't find any shortcomings that I can blame on it (remember I'm not a knowledgeable listener nor my system has the resolving capabilities others have), I keep using it. Still I can notice when electricity is in a good or a bad day.

I believe that a good regenerator that keeps voltage stable, decouples system from the grid and delivers a pure sinewave no matter what load you put in it, would be a very interesting thing to try. But all those devices are expensive and I really can't afford a trial and error merry-go-round to fix the power issues. As a toy the Kemp looks fun, those frequency and crest factor controls suggest that one could find a good working point to take the system's performance somewhere else. Deciding if that somewhere is any worth is completely another matter. Though I suspect it's not transparent to good electricity from the outlet if any different point than 50Hz (60Hz in US), 0% crest factor is used. The 75w top power is also a big shortcoming, if I spend more than 1500 euros in a power regenerator I'd like to be able to use it for the whole system. Another feature that I find questionable is the balanced power thing. Audio circuits have a common leg which shouldn't carry any active signal other than the one generated by the own device. Why using it to get half of the voltage you need?
The APS would be more interesting, but those reliability issues, the chance that sound results aren't the expected ones, and being the manufacturer in the USA and myself in Europe, makes it an uncertain choice. Moreover a unit for European market is different from a unit for the US, who knows how it would behave here.

I tried a PS Audio and I didn't like the results. Kind of trendy fashionable hifi sound that many acquaintancies I have over here do like. Haven't tried any other regenerator, then my experience is very limited.

Regards.
12-06-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 100
Post ID: 6071
Reply to: 6069
Series: RE2/PLC2 and SLC Link

 Antonio J. wrote:
You can find a brief description here: http://www.salicru.es/index.php?id=1678&L=2 My unit is a RE-1009 2T, which means has double transformer, but it's not the extra noise filtering model which they call NS. Looking at this I'm quite sure it doesn't regenerate a 50Hz sinewave.

When I bought it I was using a SS power amplifier which was DC coupled, so the DC offset due to the voltage swings on the preamp, caused the woofers to move back and forth like bewitched. Sometimes it even caused the power amp to get into protection mode. The stabilizer solved this issue perfectly. Now I'm using different gear, then the stabilizer is not really as necessary as it was then, but since I don't find any shortcomings that I can blame on it (remember I'm not a knowledgeable listener nor my system has the resolving capabilities others have), I keep using it. Still I can notice when electricity is in a good or a bad day.

I believe that a good regenerator that keeps voltage stable, decouples system from the grid and delivers a pure sinewave no matter what load you put in it, would be a very interesting thing to try. But all those devices are expensive and I really can't afford a trial and error merry-go-round to fix the power issues. As a toy the Kemp looks fun, those frequency and crest factor controls suggest that one could find a good working point to take the system's performance somewhere else. Deciding if that somewhere is any worth is completely another matter. Thoughu I suspect it's not transparent to good electricity from the outlet if any different point than 50Hz (60Hz in US), 0% crest factor is used. The 75w top power is also a big shortcoming, if I spend more than 1500 euros in a power regenerator I'd like to be able to use it for the whole system. Another feature that I find questionable is the balanced power thing. Audio circuits have a common leg which shouldn't carry any active signal other than the one generated by the own device. Why using it to get half of the voltage you need?
The APS would be more interesting, but those reliability issues, the chance that sound results aren't the expected ones, and being the manufacturer in the USA and myself in Europe, makes it an uncertain choice. Moreover a unit for European market is different from a unit for the US, who knows how it would behave here.

I tried a PS Audio and I didn't like the results. Kind of trendy fashionable hifi sound that many acquaintancies I have over here do like. Haven't tried any other regenerator, then my experience is very limited.

Regards.

It might be an interning derection; I never tried that type of devises. Still one thing annoys me. They claim of: “Zero harmonic distortion”. That is VERY bogus comment. I just had a conversation with Dima a few days ago and he expanded to me that there is some kind of basic rule (Fourier Theorem if I am not mistaken) according to which the process of removing of harmonic distortion and reconstruction of sinewave shape are absolutely the same things and therefore it is imposable to have a lot of distortion and perfect sinewave (and vise versa). So, if they assert “Zero harmonic distortions” then their Stabilizers units output a perfect sinewave and do not need any regeneration. Is it thru? If you do not have distortion analyzer then you can look at the sinuses before and after and it will give you a perfect picture about the function of the unit.
BTW, the same company does the double conversion regenerators, similar to APS PurePower:

http://www.salicru.es/fileadmin/apps/descarga/fichas/SAI/Ficha-SLC-LINK_5000_%2801%29.pdf

They claim that “Sinewave shape is suitable quality for the loads”. I wonder it is it what the unit dos or juts a marketing claim they brainlessly made.

Still, behind everything there is always a consideration about the quality of sound that those units produce. The folks from SALICRU would not even understand what you are asking them if you approach this unit from sonic point of view. The APS folks do understand what they might be asked … they just need to learn to be able to answer the questions and the demands… :-)

BTW, there are very many similar to APS power regenerators on the market that are not optimized for audio. It is highly possible that the problem that APS experiencing now are very typical for all “no transformers, class D” regenerators. The APC double conversion regenerator that I have fucks up sound even more then APS.

As far as I know APS is the only companies that are trying to accommodate “no transformers, class D” regenerators for audio applications. I am sure would like to see 50 companies doing the same, competing with results. Do you see them? I do not. I was trying to encourage Paul from PS Audio to pay attention to this direction but he is busy stuffing audio houses with this new “class AB” Power Plant.  I think then, in a year or two he will introduce the “Revolutionary, exclusively by PS Audio” class-D Power Plant… BTW, it does not mean that it will sound better then APS unit….

Rgs, The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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