GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site

12-31-2006

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	26
Post ID:	3412
Reply to:	3409

Burned-in 6AK5 finds the music (just the music)!

Well, I thought I'd heard some nice hi-fi at times in the past, but this is something else, altogether! As the new 6AK5s burn in the amps have become truly uncanny music makers. The "highs" are now such that it has become unimportant where I sit in relation to the speakers, and I have just listened to some of what I always thought were poor recordings of some performances I love rendered not only "listenable" but downright, bloody musical. Somehow, in sync with the "missing" HF, these amps seem to pay attention only to the music, and they are otherwise silent. I don't know how to put it any better than that. This is simply not like hi-fi as we have known it before now. Yes, it is much "better".

I will follow Romy's lead and stop short of a blanket recommendation, because any tool can be misused; but at the same time, I never really imagined reproduced music could come literally so close in every respect to live, without the accompanying noises, etc. that have up to now invariably tagged along as part of the price for a "ruthlessly revealing" system. In this case, just take out the "ruthless" part and add a significant chunk of new-type information to what you have heard to date in terms of "revealing". It's music, but not at all in the same sense as all the PRAT-oriented mid-fi stuff that always gets that citation from reviewers. I mean MUSIC!

If new 6N6Ps add anything substantial to what I'm getting now, I'll have to be tethered to keep my feet on the ground!

Happy New Year,
Paul S

12-31-2006

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	27
Post ID:	3413
Reply to:	3412

It’s not necessary all on surface.

Paul S wrote:
Well, I thought I'd heard some nice hi-fi at times in the past, but this is something else, altogether! As the new 6AK5s burn in the amps have become truly uncanny music makers. The "highs" are now such that it has become unimportant where I sit in relation to the speakers, and I have just listened to some of what I always thought were poor recordings of some performances I love rendered not only "listenable" but downright, bloody musical. Somehow, in sync with the "missing" HF, these amps seem to pay attention only to the music, and they are otherwise silent. I don't know how to put it any better than that. This is simply not like hi-fi as we have known it before now. Yes, it is much "better".

I will follow Romy's lead and stop short of a blanket recommendation, because any tool can be misused; but at the same time, I never really imagined reproduced music could come literally so close in every respect to live, without the accompanying noises, etc. that have up to now invariably tagged along as part of the price for a "ruthlessly revealing" system. In this case, just take out the "ruthless" part and add a significant chunk of new-type information to what you have heard to date in terms of "revealing". It's music, but not at all in the same sense as all the PRAT-oriented mid-fi stuff that always gets that citation from reviewers. I mean MUSIC!

If new 6N6Ps add anything substantial to what I'm getting now, I'll have to be tethered to keep my feet on the ground!

Happy New Year,
Paul S

Paul, it is might not be what you think. This holiday week many companies are slowing down and I have heard from others that electricity have got better the last few days. My playback for instance during this week does very well but the previous two weeks it was unbearably cruel and harsh. So, it is very much possible that the positive results that you observe are not the 6AK5’s contribution but rather those your ML2 re-tubing coexisted with the period of good electricity. In any case - enjoy the ride….

Have a good Year….
Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-31-2006

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	28
Post ID:	3414
Reply to:	3410

Vertical/diagonal change vs. horizontal change

Paul S wrote:
The 6N6Ps I bought are nothing "special" as far as I know, but they are all tested and to spec, according to the seller, so I will also replace my current 6N6Ps when the new (NOS) batch arrives, and I will note any changes in sound then, too.

I would not trust any seller who clamed that they tested them. What they tested: transcendence, cathode emission, at which current? Come on, no one test those tubes and partially as “expensive” as $2 worth tubes. There are two options. First: your 6N6P that you got in the ML2 was good to begin with. Considering that I know the person from whom you bought your ML2 I might assure you that the amp did not work in his home at all. Second possibility is that you juts did not “catch” the change. You see, when people re-tube amps they look for the changes in Sound that I characterize as vertical or diagonal change. It is true for ML2’s input stage but with the driver stage it works differently. Changing the driver tube in this amp affects something that I call “horizontal change”. The horizontal change has less to do with “sounds” and has more to do with accentuation of rhythm and dynamic emphasis in “fundamentals range” (presumably if a playback can hands it)… As the side-evidence of the worn of the 6N6P you might look for the dark amalgam in sides where the electing bombarded the glass. That would be a good indication how much tube worked. The dark sided are not necessary indication of the bad tubes, you need tube tester (and the skills to use it) to say anything more or less defiantly. Still, with 14 cents per tube that I paid I changed it each six month when a gray coloration of the side juts tube to brown. Ironically, even then I did hear the “horizontal change” in the sound when I employed the new 6N6P..

The caT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-31-2006

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	29
Post ID:	3415
Reply to:	3414

Once a whore...

You are correct, I neither know nor expect, really, that the person from whom I bought the 6N6Ps tested them in a way that will make any difference to me, and I certainly did not buy them with any particular sense that this was the case. I am just hoping for at least some of the 10 I just bought to be useable. If a reasonable percentage of them work, I'll get more and stash them. I am not saying the 6N6Ps I'm using now need replacing, of course, because I have as yet no frame of reference, what to expect or aim for with that tube in this amp; but the amps are sounding mighty good just now. I'm really just in the process of getting to know the amps, after all. Basically, so far, so very damn good! If these benefits stick, these might even make me lazy!

As for the power grid (and/versus the "new tube benefits"), I hope the benefits stay and become a new mind-boggling norm, wherever they came from; but I am also entirely prepared to simply enjoy the performance for what, and when, it is. I have often said that I would go with strings running between soup cans if it "worked", and nothing has changed in this regard; no brand loyalty and no meaurable expectations. If I'm not exactly a whore, I'm at least very easy; just give me performance. Plus, I have had no success to date with power conditioners on amps (and basically mixed results with other components). I was recently looking at the type that isolates ground noises, like the Cinepro, etc., but I have not yet tried one of those. And right now I am running the crappiest possible power cords to the ML2s; the cord to my printer is bigger and better! I should go to the parts bin and whip some up; I think I need some braided copper sleeve...

Best regards,
Paul S

01-04-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	30
Post ID:	3435
Reply to:	3414

Truer words...

"I would not trust any seller who clamed that they tested them." -- R.B.

How annoying that your words were prophetic, Romy. The 6N6P tubes just arrived from St. Petersberg in a plastic mailing bag rather than a box, and one tube was totally smashed in the bag. The other tubes look NOS, all right, to the extent that there is still loose manufacturing crud all over all the tube pins. So the next question is, just how did he "test" them (since he says outright that he tests them all carefully) without some of the crud rubbing off when he put them in the tester socket?

I have not really looked at the 6N6Ps that came with the amps, but the tubes that just arrived do look pretty "cheap" in terms of quality of internals and pins, although the glass looks good (but thin). Of course, all the 6C33Cs I've seen also have those horrendous, rough steel pins, and they seem to do all right.

You have said that there are no "good" 6N6Ps; but are some physically constructed better than others?

Right now the only other seller of this tube on ebay is the Ukranian. i know of no other sources except BOI (if they are for real), and they want 17/tube!

I'll get back to tell about any changes to the sound these new tubes make, apropos.

Then I'll be adding decent, DIY power cords.

Best regrds,
Paul S

01-05-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	32
Post ID:	3437
Reply to:	3435

6C19P, tube paranoia and grounding

Paul S wrote:
You have said that there are no "good" 6N6Ps; but are some physically constructed better than others?

Nope it was not what I said. I said the all 6N6P are equal, at least among those that I have seen and there are no reasons to pursue different production versions. (Some Russian tube from 60 generally better then form 70-80) There is a deviation on tube tester there between the new different tubes but it is hardly auditable.

Paul, also, I my suggest that you a little bit too “violently” took the ML2 and your recent obsession with re-tubing of this amp is not good thing, at least it’s how I see it. You got a new amps and it looks like you like it. It is fine but what makes you to be fascinated to change tubes in it? Are any specific problems with sound while you use your current tubes that from you point of view makes the ML2 to sound bad? I do not think it is how you feel. So, if you have normally operating ML2 then spend a month of two juts living with it and getting accustom to it sound and then VERY SLOWLY buy some spare of the tubes. This approach will save you a lot of money, lot of nervousness and will prevent you from immature decisions.

jessie.dazzle wrote:
I have an L2 that uses this tube (at an alarming rate!), so I try to keep a stock of them..

Yep, as the person who was the very first who alarmed public about the L2’s 6C19P-sysndrome I very much concur with what you said. Lamm keep shameful silent about the issues, in fact I did not even know if he knew about it 5 years back and eventually the numerous companies made him to make an announcement that the tube should be changed once a year. Yep, right – one a year my tail!!! I remember at the best times I was clearly able to distinct the 6C19P that worked for a week (!!!) in Lamm L2 preamp. I really do not know if it is the problem with 6C19P of with the way how Vladimir uses it. Theoretically it should be very simple – juts a common regulator but I did not look further into L2. In my headphone amp the 6C19P sits at near 170V, 20ma with -33V at bias… It works fine with huge microphones (1 out of 10 is suitable) and it looks like it still work there “faster” then It would be expected. Still, I do not use that headphone amp too much to make more definitive conclusion…

jessie.dazzle wrote:

Regarding power cables : In my case, grounding made a difference. Since you are making your own cables, you may want to consider "lifting the ground" and taking advantage of the chassis grounding lug Lamm provides, connecting your ML2s (and ideally the rest of your equipment) directly to a dedicated ground (using one of those long copper-coated grounding rods just outside the house).

Jessie, it has nothing to do with Lamms. The use of grounding that come from the “wall” should be absolutely prohibited for means of high end audio. The entire audio installation MUST be listed form the wall’s ground. It is very basic and very essential requirement.

Rgs,
The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

01-05-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	33
Post ID:	3440
Reply to:	3437

No, not about the tubes

Actually, Romy, it is simply that the tubes that came with the amp were not "good" in the sense that they were not doing their jobs. Period. You may remember the pulses through the speakers and how new input tubes cured the problem?  So, no surprise then that the new input tubes also improved the performance/sound. So far all the tube "rolling" has been about nothing more than a systematic attempt to be sure that the amps are operating to spec; that's all. But of course I figure I may as well get 'good quality' tubes while I'm at it, if there is such a thing. Why not do something right the first time, if you can? And who should I ask to find out about these things?

You expressed surprise that new 6AK5s made such a profound difference. Well, please don't think that I think it is the brand or cryogenically treated pins that made the difference. At this point I do not believe that the brand of 6AK5 influenced the sound.  But it certainly appears at this point that properly-functioning 6AK5s had a hand in subsequent performance improvements, which were not at all subtle, and in fact brought my amps closer to what others have described, that I up to now could only intuit. Am I pleased with the results? You betcha!

Like I said, the 6N6Ps presently in the amps are the last tubes that came with the amps, and I have absolutely no reason to suppose that they are woring to spec. I will try the new ones I got and listen to the results. And since I know they will need regular replacement I am stocking up, so I don't have to deal with it later.

And don't worry. I do not think I am listening to "tricked-out" ML2s. Rather, I figure I am hearing the amp running ever closer to spec. Pardon me if I am agog. No, these amps are not "perfect". But they are so much better in every way than anything else I have heard in 40+ years that it just makes me wonder how they even happened.

In writing my ML2 impressions I am: 1) Trying to take advantage of your extensive experience with these amps. 2) Re-capping my experience in simple, rote terms. 3)  Sharing my personal impressions/reactions as I go along.

With respect to the ground issue: Romy, as you know, in most residential/commercial installations the "neutral" wire of the pair powering the gear runs back "unbroken" to the same main ground bus/rod as the "ground" wire. Code (and common sense) absolutely demands a whole-system ground at/near the main electrical service.  A first-class installation will use separate neutral and ground busses at any secondary panels and just join neutral and ground wires at the main panel ground bus. When we use a dedicated ground for the "ground" wire from our hi-fi systems most of us are really using 2 routes to ground: the original neutral-to-main-panel ground and any "dedicated" rod for the system ground. I also do the dedicated ground trick, by the way.

Best regards,
Paul S

01-05-2007

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jessie.dazzle

Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #:	34
Post ID:	3441
Reply to:	3437

Grounds for Paranoia

I'm probably just paranoid, but...

You are operating in a zone where the "Theory of Natural Selection" has been rendered extinct by the "American Legal System"...

I fully agree with your take on lifting the ground, but for the above-mentioned reason, SUGGESTING its benefits is about as far as I wanted to go.

Even though manufacturers like Lamm make it really easy to isolate the ground, I am always surprised to see expensive systems, complete with expensive mains cables, and in some cases even so called "dedicated circuits", sharing the electrical ground with the microwave oven !!!

The heavy-duty disclaimers audio manufacturers include in the operators manuals probably de-suade quite a few from ever considering an isolated ground.

Having said this much, there are of course "approved" ways of isolating the ground.

I can already imagine a nice polite Romy the Cat disclaimer...

jd*

How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.

01-05-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	36
Post ID:	3443
Reply to:	3441

The ML2’s input power filters and everything else…

Jessie,

Actually the tendency of manufactures to isolate ground becomes almost common among any more or less serious manufactures nowadays. The main’s ground is so polluted in US hat it is scare… or even dungarees. I remember a few years ago when I was setting up AC polarity for my playback I was measuring some VERY ugly sings on the ground side….

I have my cooper poll drive in backyard but also, and do not try it home; I had a few years ago a period when I was driving the entire single ended system completely flooded. At that time I was e4xremeting with active basing of the cable and I remember I got some very crazy setting. I had for instance a couple weeks the system running 110V in one wire and 220V in other wire… of course completely lifted…. and it was 11 components. It was interesting time…

Anyhow, since it is Lamm ML2 thread I’m jumping off the subject of grounds. The only thing that I would add on the subject of the thread would be that on all 4 of ML2s that I owned removed the input filters filters. Vladimir used in ML2 power entry modules that combined fuse, power receptacles and common mode rejection filters. What I did was broken off the filters from the power pins and lifted the ground cable form the unit to the power entry module. It was possible to order to $6 the identical power entry module but I decided do not bother. I personally feel that even the discreet, build with the best possible parts, with the best possible techniques, make to the very specific and very exact current common-mode and EMI filters do eat dynamic, among the other thighs. However, in the ML2 used $11-worth cheap filter that I thought should be removed. Frankly speaking the effect of removing was much less notable then in some other components (I toss it always everywhere) but it was auditable. Though I admit I do not spent a lot of efforts to confirm it but instead I juts bite the filter off and forgot about them….

Rgs,
The caT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

01-06-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	37
Post ID:	3446
Reply to:	3443

Another plug for the ML2

Well, I hope that Romy is the only one who still thinks I'm tube rolling, because this post is even farther afield (although it is almost a spin off from the previous posts about AC/grounding).

I finally got around to adding not-terrible power cords. I had been using some little peices of crap I had in a box with some cast-off computer stuff, but now I have nice fat solid 12 gauge copper, and yes, Virginia, there is an audible "difference", and the difference is an "improvement", and the improvement is in the "ease" of the performance. The amps are now, paradoxically, at once both more free and more in control, if that makes any sense. Music does not feel at all squeezed or pushed but it is yet more dynamic, more sudden and spontaneous, and there is still less background HF whatever-it-is that ties the music back to the speakers. This was not a "big change", because the amps were already tending like this, but it was significant enough to suggest that the AC cord does "matter" with the ML2. One really cool audiophile tidbit was to hear for the first time with my system the proper sound of the air from a trumpet, consistently rendered when the miking warranted it. (Sorry, Romy, it is true, but I said it just to tease you...)

Although I have had audible reasons to believe that the amps have not up to now been running true to spec, I am ready to accept that they are presently operating to spec. However: I still plan to try new 6N6Ps. Again, this is because I want to be as certain as possible that I know how the amps sound with the properly-functioning tubes they were designed around. I will begin evaluating my system in ernest once I am sure the amps are up to speed.

By the way, all the things I was excited about earlier are still in effect without the "Holiday Power Grid", so I hope this means that I am flipping over this amp while it is working "normally".

Best regards,
Paul S

01-08-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	39
Post ID:	3456
Reply to:	3450

Failed experiment a success (What ho, peasants?): another gusher

Too bad I had to continue today with the original 6N6Ps! LIke I care right now!

I imagine there are people who read these posts and wonder if the ML2s are "worth it", as I did for a couple of years. If by "worth it", you mean do they truly kick ass, then yes, they are worth it. But I will also hedge like a mother and say "it depends", because it does depend on whether the rest of your system can make good use of the ML2's capabilities, and it also depends on your tastes, expectations, and hi-fi acumen.

Getting the tubes closer to spec has worked just the sort of improvement I wanted along with lots of other benefits I never saw coming when I first used the amps. But I would also hazard an educated guess that these amps, although used when I got them, yet needed some "break-in" time, simply running with loads, to stabilize and begin to give their best. Although this has required but a modicum of patience, it has taken some time and attention to details to get the amps where they are now.

Where they are now is by far closer to live music in a very literal sense than I ever even imagined hi-fi could be, because up to now my expectations were limited by my (rather extensive) experience, which up to now did not include these amps. Circular, but true. Although you have heard about "holographic imaging" rendered by other amps before, I have heard them and they simply do not do it the the way the ML2s do it, and they do not do it as well as the ML2s. These amps just hinted at this for a while, but it is now part of the regular program: the uncanny, unshakable aural impression that the music is coming from the singer(s) or instrument(s) rather than from the speakers or the "sound field". This might seem like a fine point, but it isn't, and it has to do with the way the sound travels (especially the incredible "non-existent" highs) and in turn is percieved by a listener. The way the ML2s put it, the musicians and vocalists are making the music and the "sound field" rather than vice-versa. Which wouldn't mean a thing to me if everything else wasn't so well done, too; but it is.

I want everyone to know that I kept my old amps because I was not going to keep the money tied up in just another pair of amps, no matter how "good" they were in terms of my former understanding. But I want to encourage you fence sitters that if you care about music and you are prepared to go the distance to get it, then the ML2s should be on a very short list (of, perhaps, 1).

I would wait to post this kind of drivel, but I am too excited to stay quiet. I'll try to be more coherent (and less of a little kid) as the amps settle in and I get my TT up and running again.

Best regards,
Paul S

01-13-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	40
Post ID:	3488
Reply to:	2941

Skinny pins and cheap-o sockets

Have you tried these with skinny-pinned versions of your tubes? I just bought a bunch of 6N6Ps that have pins so freaking skinny that the sockets on the ML2s won't connect with them. These 6N6Ps have the "up arrow" printed on them, so next time I will avoid that version of the tube, if I can.

I was thinking: Maybe crappy Russian tubes need crappy Russian sockets; but then I remember you making fun of the Russian "two-point" "built-in short" sockets.

Years ago I used needle nosed pliers to try to tighten some socket pin clamps. I was pretty careful, but I wound up breaking the first one I tried. I was amazed that they would use such crappy metal for connecting to tube pins, and I started looking around in the amp. Then it got funny as I realized that for all the time I spent making things OCC copper, "six nines" silver, "direct gold sputtered", etc., I was just connecting the exotica to the corroded steel IEC socket and double-plated "Tiffany" sockets , ad nauseum, on the amp, not to mention whatever terrible, pitted metal the Russians use for tube pins.

Anyone know if there is a good reason (other than, "it's cheaper") why such apparently-crappy metal is used for tube socket clamps? If you tell me it's actually good stuff I'll be happy to believe you so I can quit thinking about it. At least I'll forget about it once I find sockets that will hold the skinny-pinned tubes, too (or maybe I'll go on a tear and root out all the cheap parts from my gear...).

Got a link to those sockets (I'm afraid you may have blown the "Best In The World" connection for all of us...)?

Best regards,
Paul S

01-13-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	41
Post ID:	3489
Reply to:	3488

The tubes pins: the Lamm's dirty secrets are out.

Actually I was wondering what the hell you were talking about what you were bitching that the ML2 socket can not handle 6N6P first. Ether you changed over 10.000 tubes in there or something else was wrong because the ML2 sockets are fine (except the 6C33C) and you should not have any problems. A possibility that you got some too skinny pins might explain it. I do not know, perhaps your party are more skinny then necessary. When I used ML2 I got a box with 100 of them for $40 (1966 made) and the pins were fine, no smaller the usually. You can always slightly bend the pins in order to make them to more firm.

Perhaps the skinnier 6N6P do exist, I do not know. If I were you I would call Lamm and ask, he obviously when over many of them. BTW, he might propose to buy 6N6P from him because he takes the skinny one tine and galvanizes metal on the pins unit the pins become larger. The price of 49.99 per tube is because during this galvanization he uses invented by him unique technology to let only females elations to stick to the pins and keep male electron wad of the tube. The reasons why it is important is because when you pay $80 for 6C33C then you have output tube has only males electrons on the pins and it created a natural flow across capacitor captor. Lamm own a paten that teachers the any capacitor hates when electrons with the same sex intermingle and according to Lamm his “sexism in amplification” helps to eliminate the capacitor’s homophobia….

BTW, you will not be able to use Absorb-GEL adapters because in ML2 the sockets are board mounted and the tube are going there the holes in chassis (I like it a lot). The Absorb-GEL adapters would need to have a surface with the sole on it so they are not the solution in your case.

The caT

PS. I moved the post in this thread as I feel that it more related to ML2 then to the Shock-absorbing tube sockets.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

02-11-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	42
Post ID:	3716
Reply to:	3456

Burn in, warm up, finding harmonic center

No telling anymore how good these amps can get. Today the re-configured phono stage finally "burned in" and I used the ML2s for almost 5 hours. Although I have read that they keep improving as you use them, I was not really ready for the steady, obvious improvement in musical "values" that the sound exhibited. I have to say that I am getting more and more curious about Melquiades, since the well-and-truly-burned-in-and-warmed-up ML2s are so completely free of non-musical information that it is literally difficult for me to imagine anything else being much better, at least any other "FR" amp, especially given my less-than-optimal quasi-FR speakers. Not to pick it apart, but bass is orders of magnitude better than any other amp I've heard, including big SS, with rich, deep fundamentals that do not gratuitously riccochet up the spectrum to get "fast", etc., but hang in down there like they should, with the center of power right at the source. All notes are so well shaped and harmonically centered that the effect is uncanny. As this area of music is perhaps most important to me as a listener, I am very gratified, indeed and I am astounded to hear this so well rendered in playback. Timing seems abetted by the fact that there is precious little going on besides the music, and the "focus" of the event is effortlessly clear. It is interesting how this also helps to express the theme of the music.

This has been/is a quite a learning experience for me in both hi-fi and musical terms, well worth the price of admission.

I've got some longer, more efficient "naked" ribbon tweeters on the way from Germany, and I am curious to hear how much better the ML2's already-terrific high end can get, once the HF level is better matched to the upper MF.

Best regards,
Paul S

02-25-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	43
Post ID:	3817
Reply to:	3716

Listening in without losing out

I have posted about some of my recent experience with longer "naked" HF ribbons in Romy's "Water Drop" thread. Here are some observations that relate these drivers back to the ML2s, along with some other recent ML2 trivia.

My speakers are listed back up this thread, FYI. They are ~ 96 dB, 3-way (not counting DX4's mechanical "whizzer"), passively crossed over, pretty "flat"from 40 Hz to (with Audaphon ribbon) way on up there. Impedance is not "bad" compared to many/most "audiophile" speakers, but there are a couple of spikes, up and down, that do present problems to most SETs, and the 15" BR drivers are not exactly a cakewalf for the amps, either. Although the speaker's designer intended that they would be "SET friendly", it was not possible to get anywhere near optimum performance from these speakers using 2A3 monoblocks, despite those amps having A2 drive, meaning lots more juice than any garden-variety 2A3. It was my search for amps to drive these very promising (within their limits) speakers that led me to the ML2s.

With the substitution/addition of the Audaphon ribbons (replacing Arum Cantus G2Sis) I have wound up driving the speakers from the ML2s' 16 Ohm taps. This has resulted in the best top-to-bottom integration of this range of frequencies that I have heard in lengthy playback sessions. Also much improved are musical bass and both "internal" and "external" dynamics, meaning that the volume and density of material available has increased very significantly, and listening levels have increased without fear, from the amps or on my part, since there are none of the usual signs of "impending collapse" at the volumes I listen, typically under 100 dB peaks (with exceptions, depending on the material.

I finally solved my phono hum problem, so I have gotten to use LPs as a reference source, and I am much more familiar with how this "should" sound.

As great an addition as the longer/more efficient/stronger ribbons have proven to be, the ML2's contribution is quite significant in this, and despite early promise I have none the less been surprised at the way the ML2s have "embraced" and helped realize the ribbons' increase of system potential. As I mentionmed in the ribbon thread, it is no easy thing to get a HF ribbon to perform properly in a system. That the ML2s manage this well while driving the rest of the system simply astounds me.

Back to bass, adding the ribbons shot bass performance up significantlly with respect to both quality and quantity, using the 16 Ohm tap with my speakers. Bass "pitch" is about perfect. My speaker's inherent LF limitations are laid bare, but bass to 30 Hz is true and musical, albeit attenuated below 40 Hz, obviously. I might have to call this the "antithesis" of "fast bass", because the ML2s simply will not let go of bass fundamentals in order to give an "impression" of bass, so there is, as there should be, as in live, less energy up the band than other amps deliver in lieu of bass. When the ML2s make "propulsive" bass, it is true LF-centered bass fundamentals that pack some serious LF energy. Also, the ML2s do not get "LF depleted" with my semi-difficult speakers, meaning other frequencies are neither "bass shaded" nor are they in any way dimished by bass continuo. This ability to "keep it up" at all frequencies on both micro and macro levels, along with spectacular harmonic and transient response at all times, makes the ML2s by far the most satisfying amps I have ever tried for larger orchestral scores. In fact, such scores have not really figured into my hi-fi musical plans for some time, until just recently. The ML2s have not only opened this door again but these larger scores are becoming staples. Wholly unexpected, and very satisfying, indeed. I really did not think these speakers could do this, at all.

MF is now much more "powerful" at given SPL and at the same time it remains lyrical and utterly nuanced. Instrumental voicing is as good as I have ever heard, as is the "integrity" of not only the instruments and voices but the performers and performances. The amps still have the uncanny nack of revealing any system weaknesses without letting those limitations ruin the music/experience. However, to be honest, the limitations are decidedly less limited than I ever expected or even hoped for just a few months ago.

I have a new phono stage on the way, mostly because I want to try a Bent TAP transformer volume control (also in transit), just to hear one for myself. Hard to think in those terms, now that I licked the phono hum problem; but I'll get back one way or the other once I think I have anything new to say.

I would certainly love to hear more from other ML2 users.

Best regards,
Paul S

03-11-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	44
Post ID:	3975
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The sound of dust settling

It took some work, but I finally got a new phono stage (K&K) and a Bent TAP (transformer-based volume control) installed, along with some new cartridge clips (ugh!), and I put the "new system" through its paces Saturday and Sunday. I am still trying to see/hear how far I can take the ML2s/how far they will take me, and I am getting more and more clear about what the ML2s themselves do in my system.

I have said that the ML2s keep to harmonic center, and this has not changed. The K&K (which I will post about separately, along with the Bent TAP, as well) is also pitch-centric, and the Bent is neutral, as far as I can tell. While I still would not call the ML2s exactly "neutral" they do in fact amplify clearly and cleanly what they are fed, including, apparently, everything below 40 Hz, and they do it with/through my not-so-efficient speakers (96dB) that feature big 15" woofers and passive networks. I am no longer concerned about volume or complexity, either. No "cringe" and no "collapse". at any volume I would listen to. I sat transfixed through "Sketches of Spain" with peaks over 100 dB and then just for kicks I played the Mobile Fidelity D-to-D "Ride of the Valkeries" even louder! Huge! Simply stunning! So it looks/sounds like the ML2 pretty much "makes the best of what it's fed", meaning it still has a [VERY] nice way of "organizing" things, at all frequencies, and any deficiencies I'd noticed in the past are solved or seem solve-able with attention to other components. Since my bass bins fall off so fast below 40 Hz I cannot really comment on the subterranean stuff other than to say I imagine the ML2's would do it full justice under the right circumstances. Bass > 35 Hz with the new front end is musically right, with plucked open bass string [vibrations] clearly audible as such, as they should be. Trombones just rip. CD is also better through the TAP. Although CD sounds very much like LPs, apropos, it doesn't sound as "good"; but my CD player is an afterthought.

Right now I have a very "musical" system, and I am really enjoying it. I have no doubt that the ML2's can do "audiophile", too, because I've tweaked things to make that happen, as well. But for now I'm sticking with [loud] music that is very close indeed to my ideal.

At this pointIi think it's fair to say that if you have ML2s with "reasonably efficient" speakers then you can safely just hew to whatever works best with the ML2s and toss the rest, because in that case "the rest" is not worth keeping.

Best regards,
Paul S

03-11-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	45
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Yes, even more....

Paul S wrote:
At this pointIi think it's fair to say that if you have ML2s with "reasonably efficient" speakers then you can safely just hew to whatever works best with the ML2s and toss the rest, because in that case "the rest" is not worth keeping.

Actually you might not recognize now true it is.... but from a slightly different prospective as well. It is also a fun to try ML2.0 (or M1.1) with different “reasonably efficient" speakers. Those two amplifiers in many instances uncover in well-know speakers some qualities that are not commonly known belong a given speaker. It hard to explain or to believe for the people who are not deeply familiar with ML2.0 and it is know only for a few people who actually know ML2.0 well and can affords to make own mind according to actual results instead of the extraneous external conditions.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-11-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
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Post #:	46
Post ID:	3978
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If now was the future

Don't worry, Romy, I can hear, and I've been at this for some time, so it is already abundantly clear that the ML2s would do/be that much better with true HE speakers (yes, the right horns). And when I say this you know that I know how troublesome multi-way "HE" (horn) speakers are to drive coherently, not on paper, but with an actual amplifier in an actual room. But it will be a while yet before I go back down that rutted road again, and there is still much to enjoy in the context of my present set-up, thanks mostly to the ML2s. Were it not for the ML2s I likely would have run aground with the DEBZs quite a while ago. For one thing, what other stock unit could drive a naked HF ribbon like this? Borrowing from your observation, above, you might even say that the DEBZs are the "different reasonably-efficient speakers" you refer to, since they are hardly a match made in Heaven for any SET, including the ML2s.

I hope people understand that I am not so much encouraging them to just go out and buy ML2s for their present speakers as I am encouraging them to buy ML2s and then do what works best with them(!). That's how much I think of these "not neutral" amps. Lest anyone think otherwise, my present speakers are actually pretty damned good, with the ML2s driving them; in fact I have not heard better, overall, although I can already imagine better, because of my aggregate hi-fi experience to date, which now includes the ML2s, if that makes any sense.

Best regards,
Paul S

03-12-2007

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jessie.dazzle

Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #:	47
Post ID:	3983
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Paying the price...

Well, I could not agree more.

I've had a pair of ML2s connected for the past several months. I say it like that because I have not yet seriously worked with them, as I am still building the horns that they will drive.

I connected the ML2s first just as an experiment to drive a pair of Upper Mid horns, which sounded beautifully delecate but very concentrated when playing all alone.

So good that I left the experiment in place, and now have the amps driving all of what currently exists of my horn project... some horns, and some drivers without horns, (5 per channel), with simple 1st order crossovers. So basically just a left and right pile, that play while I work on the remaining horns.

Even at this stage, I seem to be growing physically dependent on what all this stuff is starting to do with sound. I am not exaggerating when I say that I have not once reconnected my previous speakers (which are quite excellent as "normal speakers" go); even though it would be a simple matter, as they are still sitting right there.

I have also noticed a shift in the music that most often stops me in my tracks, usually while working (further hampering progress on the horns)... Romy calls it "content-loaded" music... well I'm not sure if what I've been into is exactly that, but I've certainly been adding more and more complex music (I am fortunate to live above a library with a huge and very well maintained collection of recorded music)... this is stuff I used to avoid... no longer the case. And simpler music sounds... simple.

Well we do evlove with our systems... and I suppose I am evolving along with the sound as I add horns (to the system I mean), and in fact, my biggest problem is shutting down and getting to bed at a reasonable hour... Never mind the purchase price, I continue paying for these amps every morning! I also hate leaving the house. Dangerous all this.

Other than that, my only issue for the moment is the following :

While not present to the point of ruining the experience, I would love to reduce the background hiss coming from the MF and HF horns/drivers.

I don't know how much of this is normal, (I don't have much experience with really high sensitivity drivers used with SET amps). I suspect it is in part related to the age of the tubes I've currently got in the amps and the L2 preamp (no point using fresh tubes given the very unfinished state of the system). In any case, the hiss seems to diminish as things get warm. I did not have this issue when using the same amps/preamp with my previous 89db/w @ 1m speakers, but neither did the sound have anywhere near this level of life.

Any thoughts or comments would be very much appreciated.

jd*

How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.

03-12-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
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Post #:	48
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The 110dB sensitivity is not a joke.

jessie.dazzle wrote:
While not present to the point of ruining the experience, I would love to reduce the background hiss coming from the MF and HF horns/drivers.

ML2 should be absolutely silent. Pretty much it you drive with ML2 a 110dB sensitive driver loaded into a horn then sticking you head into the horn you should not be able to say if amps is on or off. Sure, you have to lift ground on the ML2, that is pretty much default operation mode on any amp. So, if you have a MF or HF hiss with ML2 then it is most likely comes from your preamp. Short the ML2’s inputs and the hiss should be gone. Most of the preamps (including Lamm’s own SS preamps) are no equipped noise-wise to work with 110dB sensitive load.

jessie.dazzle wrote:
I have also noticed a shift in the music ….. I've certainly been adding more and more complex music …. this is stuff I used to avoid... no longer the case. And simpler music sounds... simple.

I think nothing further could be said about ML2.0, this sumizes it all.

The CaT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-12-2007

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jessie.dazzle

Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #:	49
Post ID:	3985
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Shorting plugs

Romy,

Thanks for the advice.

Just to be clear here :

When you say

"Short the ML2’s inputs and the hiss should be gone"

I assume it is not a mistake, and that you mean short the unused input on each POWER AMP (as opposed to the PREAMP).

(I am currently using the XLR connections because I don't have RCA cables in the correct length)

Is there any advantage (or danger) in shorting the unused INPUTS on the PREAMP?

For the moment I have metal sheilding caps on all unused inputs (pre and power amps), which don't seem to make a difference.

The ground is lifted on all equipment and and attached to a water pipe. There are 5 dedicated circuits, located in a dedicated breaker box fed directly from the line that comes in from the street (that was fun!).

jd *

How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.

03-12-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	50
Post ID:	3986
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Shorting Lamm ML2

jessie.dazzle wrote:
"Short the ML2’s inputs and the hiss should be gone"

I assume it is not a mistake, and that you mean short the unused input on each POWER AMP (as opposed to the PREAMP).

(I am currently using the XLR connections because I don't have RCA cables in the correct length)

Is there any advantage (or danger) in shorting the unused INPUTS on the PREAMP?

For the moment I have metal sheilding caps on all unused inputs (pre and power amps), which don't seem to make a difference.

Nope, it was not what I meant. Do following:

1) Disconnect ML2 from preamp.
2) Disconnect any RCA or XLR from ML2.
3) Stick RCA shorting plug into ML2’s input RCA jack (not the shielding caps but shorting)
4) If you do not have a shorting plug then stick RCA male-to-male into ML2’s RCA input and then short the other side of the RCA terminator with any metal object.

What you will go is shorting the grid of the input stage to ground that will kill all externals noise. In this mode the ML2 should be absolutely silent.

Warning: Do not short anything on the preamp’s output or input. A preamp should not be on the picture at all.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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