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10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 438
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 251
Post ID: 26944
Reply to: 26942
Be careful with passive radiators
The passive radiator is simply put a closed box Helmholtz resonator with low "q". What does that mean? It means that the passive radiator only resonates at its tuned frequency and its multiples - regardless of the frequency radiated by the driven woofer. 

Let us say that the passive is tuned to 30 Hz. Our recording of Also Sprach Zarathustra starts with a pipe organ low C. This is 32 Hz. The Tannoy driver moves at 32 Hz, the passive radiator can only move at its tuned frequency - 30 Hz. As it adds additional pressure, we believe that it is a "louder" 32 Hz. If we measure the actual frequencies, we find 32(Tannoy)/30(PR) and the sum (30+32) 62 and difference (30-32) 2 Hz coming out of the speaker. The actual amount of additional pressure depends on the Q of the resonance.

The reason that we believe differently is because most frequency response sweeps are made with the assumption that the pressure picked up by the microphone correlates to the given input frequency. It does not. Measure and weep.
I noticed this effect when tuning a piano once. A detuned string still got my tuning fork to resonate.


https://www.hunecke.de/en/knowledge/absorbers/helmholtz-resonators.html





Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 252
Post ID: 26945
Reply to: 26944
The Plain Truth, per Pythagoras
Thanks for the explication, Robin. This is exactly what I encounted when I messed with passive radiators, many years ago, and it is exactly why I abandoned them fairly quickly, after "making sure" I could not make problems "go away" by "adjusting  Fs" by fiddling with dope and goop on the cones, etc., ad nauseum. And, as long as we're on the subject, there are similar/related issues with most/all "multi-driver" speakers. Basically, what "manufacturers" show in the way of RTA charts are "averaged"/"smoothed" results. Sure, we only care about what we hear; but, in the end, the sum-and-difference effects are just that, and the passive radiator has to get its energy from the active driver. In cases where the active driver is "challenged" to begin with, a passive radiator might make it "sound better", but its effects will not be simply additive, nor are they likely to be anything we could call linear, without calculus.


Paul S



10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 253
Post ID: 26946
Reply to: 26944
More on PR
Thank you Rowuk for the explanations.

 rowuk wrote:
The Tannoy driver moves at 32 Hz, the passive radiator can only move at its tuned frequency - 30 Hz.

I understand what you are trying to say, but the Fs resonance has it's width. Not sure how representative the plot from here is (scroll down pls):
https://diy.midwestaudio.club/discussion/909/ported-vs-passive-radiator-designs-thoughts
but it shows a pretty wide PR resonance.

In any case, as far as I understand the rapid phase variation by a total of 360deg  makes any matches with additional channels a huge challenge. Adding a PR sub like I fantasized above seems to have a limited value due to the persistent notch (and the phase rotation) at the PR Fs. SS Fs is already low around 20+Hz, finding a PR that would go significantly lower is a no-go, unless mass loading the cone. OTOH, accepting the 20+Hz notch as the lowest freq, which is IMHO already a v good result for such a compact design, opens a way of  using a sub with the same ScanSpeak PR, say 2 parallel SS + 1 SS PR, as a reinforcement channel. It will have the +/- the same notch but will add output before it. Or am I talking bs?



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 254
Post ID: 26947
Reply to: 26946
Xmax and BL?
I understand someone got good sounding results from  - apparently -  using a certain passive radiator to effectively lower the Fs of a 10" Tannoy Red. Can it be that the Tannoy has a long enough throw that is still damped in line with the rest of it's output? If so, why does it's acceptable output drop with frequency? Can it be that the Scanspeaks will share that quality if their Fs is lowered the same way? I've done a lot of screwing around with lowering Fs, raising mms, and effing with surrounds and spyders, and those cures introduced their own problems for me. Of course, the only way you'll know for sure is to build it and give it a try. And then tell us what happens.

Best regards,
Paul S
10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 255
Post ID: 26948
Reply to: 26947
Not sure
Paul, I'm only learning here but if I understand correctly, a passive Scanspeak will not effectively lower the Fs of the active Scanspeak/s, as the notch is at the Fs of the passive radiator, irrespective of what the active radiator/s is/are.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 256
Post ID: 26949
Reply to: 26948
Action/Reaction
Yes, Jarek, I can see that, now that you mention it. Basically, then, it appears it would just eat low end, based on Q vs. other active speaker perameters. So, what would be the "theoretical benefit" of the added passive radiator be in the case you describe, particularly considering the idea of "tying in" below the Tannoy Red? Or are you willing to settle for just "more" down to 50 Hz, hoping that the active Scanspeak with (hopefully?) the weird bottom will blend with and augment the Dannoy's weird bottom? Romy has repeated many times that passing the Red higher (to gain acoustic power) ruined the magic as much as (or even more than) overdriving it. Feels like my childish struggle to create a 5 color map.

Paul S
10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 257
Post ID: 26950
Reply to: 26949
The 2nd option
Paul, the 2nd option - "more" down to Fs =20+Hz (not 50Hz as you state) with the hope of the weird bottoms blending and augmenting (= more headroom down to Fs). But this is just me thinking loud.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-28-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 258
Post ID: 26951
Reply to: 26950
Angels on Pinheads
Jarek, how many 10" Scanspeaks do you think it would take to get way down in your room? And remember that, according to Romy, the "best sounding" Dannoy, the heart of this speaker system, still only plays up to 90 db peaks (70 dB continuous with serious music), so it seems like there's no good reason the subs should have to play louder. Don't know if listening right up on these speakers would help, but I have had most of my speakers set up this way at one point or another, over the years. With this sort of set-up, visitors were surprised that they were not blasted out of their seats by some of my bigger speakers.

Paul S
10-29-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 438
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 259
Post ID: 26952
Reply to: 26946
Passive Radiator Part2
The Fs resonance does have its width BUT that means that the 30 Hz PR resonance out of my example is excited when the driver is not exactly at 30 Hz (not that a 30Hz PR can resonate at 32 0r 28Hz!). By definition a Helmholtz Resonator has one frequency based on mass and the air spring. If we want multiple frequencies, we need multiple PRs that each have their own frequencies (and due to "Q" their own trash when other frequencies are needed). In addition, the PR needs several cycles to "get up to speed". It is ALWAYS way behind the active driver.
The problem here is the single PR RESONANT FREQUENCY that will modulate everything else.
All of this technical stuff does not necessarily correlate to good or bad sound. Plenty of audiophiles are very tolerant of things that their friends have not yet criticized...


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-29-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 260
Post ID: 26953
Reply to: 26952
Cartridges and speakers
 rowuk wrote:
The Fs resonance does have its width BUT that means that the 30 Hz PR resonance out of my example is excited when the driver is not exactly at 30 Hz (not that a 30Hz PR can resonate at 32 0r 28Hz!). By definition a Helmholtz Resonator has one frequency based on mass and the air spring. If we want multiple frequencies, we need multiple PRs that each have their own frequencies (and due to "Q" their own trash when other frequencies are needed). In addition, the PR needs several cycles to "get up to speed". It is ALWAYS way behind the active driver.
The problem here is the single PR RESONANT FREQUENCY that will modulate everything else.

Basically all important resonating structures in audio look like hell from both frequency and time domain perspectives.

 rowuk wrote:
All of this technical stuff does not necessarily correlate to good or bad sound. Plenty of audiophiles are very tolerant of things that their friends have not yet criticized...

I have 2-3 audio friends and never listen withe them if that matters.

@Paul - I got what your are saying about the 90/70dB setting. I do miss however some headroom for big orchestras as I have mentioned.  I'd love to know how many active SS would be enough. My space is a strange shape (living room semi separated from a kitchen and connected to a small entrance space). I do not have much space for the subs, would be great if by some luck 1Active+1Passive per channel would do (I listen close distance at 2.4m)



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-29-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 261
Post ID: 26954
Reply to: 26953
Closing In
Likely, whatever you do with subs will include a big coil, and caps and resistors, too, if to make a steep filter to "match" the Dannoy LF "roll off". The sub(s) might be tailored in terms of correct SPL to blend with the Dannoy at the X/O point, and then you would have to boost the sub(s) below that. Sounds like a job for a plate amp, and maybe start with a board so you can dial in the sub(s) before commiting to exactly how you will drive them. One nice thing about digital subs is that you can "dial in phase" along with power curves. No idea how to "match phase" with the PR.

Paul S
10-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 262
Post ID: 26955
Reply to: 26954
Not so fast
Found this old experiment of Romy:
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=26298#26298
Dannoy + 2x active paralleled ScanSpeaks in a sealed box of unknown tuning freq, both speakers powered from the same amp, unfiltered (the blue curve). Not sure if he ever continued this experiment.  But looks like the numbers don't lie and two paralleled ScanSpeaks needed just to match the 92dB  sensitivity of the Red (not relying on the boundary effects though), so anything smaller is a no-go. Furthermore, as  I understand the passive operation, adding a passive Scanspeak to the sub will +/- reproduce the LF slope and the null of the Dannoy (the red curve) so the net reinforcement looks close to zero, unless I'm missing sth. Plus various rules of thumb say the passive area should be bigger than the active (not followed in the Dannoy though), so probably for two active ScanSpeaks, a bare minimum two passive will be needed, making the whole sub box quite a tower already. Hmm...



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 263
Post ID: 26956
Reply to: 26955
92 dB at 50 Hz from the Tannoy?
Of course, it's the top end of the woofers/subs that has to blend in with the bottom end of the Dannoys, and you can get gain at X/O frequency from the subs, if it sounds OK to do it. I guess that means coming up with an "average" of the sum and difference effects at X/O frequency shown on Romy's chart and using that to come up with values for the X/O, itself? And there will also be "phase issues" to contend with here, to avoid worse combing. Also, it's still not clear to me if you are saying that PRs in your subs would somehow make the active part of the ScanSpeak subs blend better with the Dannoys at the X/O frequency, which is the top end of the subs' output, when the PR relates to the SS's 20 Hz Fs? I don't get how this part works. Another case where you pay the price, build it, then try it out?

Best regards,
Paul S
10-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 264
Post ID: 26957
Reply to: 26955
It is all about Audio dark matter.
What is the most interesting is how all those completely lucid commentaries about Dannoy are off the mark in my view. Do not get me wrong, there is nothing expressed here is bad but all it describes how to get a “balanced” sound Dannoy configuration. I do not think that the balanced sound was something the “ruined” me last September. I am pretty sure that when I swiped the TRA then (and I did) I would have a horrible response. There is something else in the Dannoy/VFET configuration that was superbly attractive, and I am very sure that this attractiveness has no reflection within amplitude domain. I just wish I know what it was. Yes, trying to improve what I has last September I was trying to fix the amplitude domain. As I felt that I can do “better” and I lost everything. Please, take me seriously. I am not an idiot and have very good sense of what I do in audio and in my view Macondo/Milq did very fine before last September. What I experienced in September with Dannoy/ VFET was something that absolutely different from anything that I knew and the converted my 25-year experience with Macondo/DSET into something disposable. I am not kidding it was so different that it was laudable. One way or other and wherever it was I am very confident that it was the just proper drivers operation but something vey different.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 265
Post ID: 26958
Reply to: 26956
Basic considerations
Good question, what is the actual reasonable output of Dannoy at 50Hz, no idea.  To make it clearer, let me summarize my actual thoughts (possibly wrong):
Variant I (PR sub):
1. I accept 20Hz as the lowest freq and do not try to go lower 2. I try to reinforce the 20-100Hz region of Dannoy with a sub, working parallel in this region with the Dannoy
3. To blend the low ends of the sub and the Dannoy I consider:
a) a sub with the same passive radiator as the Dannoy; the complication is the size-using 2 scanspeaks means using 2 more as PR = large enclousure
b) low passing the sub only at some 100Hz and trying Dannoy unfiltered
Variant II (Sealed sub):
1. I try to go lower in freq a la quoted Romy's idea, complementing Dannoy at ULF as well
2. I consider a sealed box with 2 scanspeaks, close to the boundary (ceiling/floor),Dannoy again unfiltered, sealed boxed low passed at some 100Hz








Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 266
Post ID: 26959
Reply to: 26958
The Dannoy at 20 Hz?!?
Jarek, can we just stop talking about the Dannoy "output" at 20 Hz, just because that's Fs? Not saying the Tannoy doesn't benefit sonically from its Dannoy configuration; but, if to add LF, as you say you want to, then you need subs, since the Tannoy is tapped out at LF, as everyone who has used it agrees, and more power alone will not get more LF from that speaker. The Tannoy is the only active speaker in the Dannoy, right? Whatever, the beneficial "PR influence" is peculiar to the Dannoy configuration alone, as far as we know. Sealed Scanspeak subs without the PR "should" do it, since you are trying to limit the footprint and/or bulk of the sub(s), and sealed enclosures will be your smallest choice. And don't forget that subs sound good where they sound good, but using 2 or 3 subs (vs. 1) might well change where they sound best (generally when/where they cause the least harm). Subs in the "wrong" positions can create frustrating peaks and/or suck-outs. In fact, it can be tough to eliminate ill effects of subs. Build 'em, test 'em, laugh or cry. Once you are otherwise happy with your Dannoys, of course.

Although I get the dark matter analogy, it's not helpful at this point, since N-set appears to be set on charging ahead, regardless, and none of us can effectively include the "darkmatter quotient" into our "calculatons". Before dark matter there was phlogiston. We worked around it (albeit without having learned to to love one another).


Paul S
10-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 267
Post ID: 26960
Reply to: 26959
Coming back to the start
Yes, of course, I was using 20Hz as some reference only. It's Fs of the ScanSpeak. Tannoy is the only active speaker so all power comes (or not) from it. From your experience with Reds, where does its reasonable output end?

Like you say, probably the only way is to try (I don't think Romy played a lot with this combo of Dannoy +2xSS sealed and moved to Remendies). 43-45Hz box is the max size I can do for 2x ScanSpeak. Hung from the ceiling for the additional gain, low passed at some 80-100-120Hz or so, the Dannoy unfiltered. I could CNC two more cutouts for PR's later if I feel I want to try them (by the alchemist rule of mixing alike with alike Wink.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 268
Post ID: 26961
Reply to: 26960
Box Limits vs. Multiple Drivers
Well, Tannoy tuned all their 10" monitors to play reasonably well down to about 50 Hz. Their monitors I heard were all variations of ported, with some of their "newer" monitors (70's?) using the ports to create more apparent bass, and those monitors required (Surprise!) more amp power. I should mention, the newer drivers are different from the older ones (naturally). Are you planning to drive the SS lower than the frequency gained by the box? I don't remember the older drivers having long Xmax and/or high BL, or high mms, so multiple drivers and likely more power, not to mention biased X/O, to get lower than the small box "allows". I suppose the SS you are looking at would not work in a tapped horn sort of thing?

The foregoing supposes you are leaving the Dannoys as-is, to "keep them at their best".

Never give up on the idea of something for nothing!


Best regards,
Paul S
10-31-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 269
Post ID: 26962
Reply to: 26961
Biamping
 Paul S wrote:
Are you planning to drive the SS lower than the frequency gained by the box? I don't remember the older drivers having long Xmax and/or high BL, or high mms, so multiple drivers and likely more power, not to mention biased X/O, to get lower than the small box "allows". I suppose the SS you are looking at would not work in a tapped horn sort of thing?

Yes, of course. I'm basically parasiting on what Romy and Anthony did with the Macondo ULF, hoping it would work with Dannoys  : SS sealed box, drive the box with its own powerful amp (biamping) and let the box go as low as it can go (Anthony reported doing even 18Hz with 8xSS). Low passed somewhwre around 100Hz. The SS data shows +/- 6mm linear:
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/pdf/ScanSpeakWoofer.pdf
The Dannoys left untouched not to spoil anything.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-31-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 270
Post ID: 26963
Reply to: 26962
Wooly Bully
Fair Xmax, and that (plus multiple drivers) is pretty much necessary for a 10" driver to go low. The best thing about this LF idea, IMO, is that it increases your chances of blending sonically at X/O. No idea how the cones hold up with the power (including current, by the way...) that will be required to move that much mass that far, that fast. Not to mention, again, the very peculiar behavior of the Dannoy at its bottom. You can calculate Vas and maybe line the boxes with thick felt and stuff them with fluffy wool. As you will eventually see (if/when I post on my own project), I lke to first "parge" the insides of my speaker boxes with about 5mm of acrylic modified thin set mortar. And I was thinking Romy abandoned his SS towers (ok, I am old, so somethimes it's hard to separate actual memories from "related thoughts"). You did not respond about the "tapped horn idea" (not that it deserves mention; just a thought about small footprint/high output).


Best regards,
Paul S
10-31-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 438
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 271
Post ID: 26964
Reply to: 26963
If we want history to repeat itself, we have to prepare - again
There has been one year of frustration about something that "shouldn't" work. I will maintain, if we want another go, then we have to hook up Melquiades/Macondo and get our ears back to where they were. Then we repeat the Dunnoy experiment. Maybe the excitement was the "one time" delta that of course is the delta to the Melquiades/Macondo - not the Dunnoy to Dunnoy.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-31-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 272
Post ID: 26965
Reply to: 26963
Tapped horn
I didn't comment because I don't have much to say. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt it will have a smaller volume than a sealed box.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-31-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 273
Post ID: 26966
Reply to: 26965
The Irony of Scanspeak Subs
Another thing to consider here is a specific reason or reasons to use the "PR Type" Scanspeaks as subs, since Romy says outright that the Dannoy's PR cones have "no ouput", but the (rather amemic) LF from the Dannoy'ed Tannoy is all there is from the Dannoys.
OK, screw Tapped horn, maybe opposed drivers.


Best regards,
Paul S
11-01-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 438
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 274
Post ID: 26968
Reply to: 26966
Amplitude domain unlikely
I think that the discussion of extending response (especially LF) is the WRONG direction. We know that the Macondo/Melquiades setup had more extension and integration than is even possible with Dunnoys. I am not sure why this is even getting so many posts.

If there is anything that the Dunnoy can possibly do better, it is TONE - most likely from the paper driver, not the horn or PR. A loudspeaker driver and a passive radiator must be closely matched to the LF resonance of the active unit if we want LF amplitude gains - something not the case here. If the passive is tuned too low (which is the case here), the box behaves more like an infinite baffle - no LF increase but relief of box pressure.

Other than having enough power,  I doubt that the Yamaha amplifier is really integral to "getting the best" out of the Dunnoys.

At the end of the day however, I believe the solution is early luck OR A REPEAT OF THE YEARS OF INVESTMENT LIKE WITH MELQUIADES/MACONDO. I do not think that this bride is low maintenance - even with the early successes (that can not be repeated). I am not waiting for the joyful post that reveals a secret. The Tannoy is a "nice" driver in a limited band and will remain so.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
11-01-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 275
Post ID: 26970
Reply to: 26968
Just Hypothesizing
The query is, if to keep this acceptble but LF challenged speaker (Dannoy) as-is, then how to add LF without wrecking what's good about this speaker. Probably worth another listen to Romy's most recent YouTube post on the matter, as he actually, literally, sardonically laughs off the notion and winds up dissing the Dannoy more than praising it. However, again, Nset has proven again and again that he won't be stopped short by "common sense". After all, as a wise and well-educated friend once said to me, "Engineering has nothing to do with common sense."

To my ears, Tannoy's best efforts have been their larger, old-fashoned speakers that used large, Helmholz type vented boxes, almost (but not quite) OB. I personally think the old Tannoys might work OB, but certainly not down to 50 Hz, unless a large enough cavity was available on the back side (remember, my idea of OB is that both sides of the driver are unloaded). Just an aside, the late JG Holt, who heard a lot more speakers than most, wound up using vented Tannoy Pro mid-field monitors to the end of his days, post Stereophile.

Nerd Trove Tannoy info link:

https://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy52.htm



Best regards,
Paul S
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