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  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  710849  07-29-2007
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03-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 47
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 326
Post ID: 28061
Reply to: 28056
Start with whatever you have on hand for RI
Dont build something exotic as it is absolutely not required to get started. Use whatever loudspeakers you have and can fit in your space or slap something together, it really does not matter initially.

Go pick up a shitty Yamaha suround sound amp and rip any terminals of the back of it that are not for rears and get going! For $50 you can be up and running. 

MY Dannoy 15s internal box volume is about 60 liters
03-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 47
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 327
Post ID: 28062
Reply to: 28060
I think it would be insightful
 Edgar= wrote:
.
So Romy, yeah a varibale resistor on those terminals is going to change things but i'd guess, all in the wrong ways.

If this statement was to be validated or disproved.
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,316
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 328
Post ID: 28063
Reply to: 28060
Wow, I need to start buying the lottery tickets
I never took my thinking deeper than just dropping my Sanspeak and to declare it as an accidental success. What you are saying completely makes sense. I always thought that the Sanspeak SD1 motor in the way you need it overhang design this  long VC but I never thought anything about that copper ring and what advantage  it might have any advantages as a passive radiator. I know nothing about passive radiators and this Sanspeak is the only passive radiator I ever used. I do not remember now what made me to load Ted with Sanspeak but I assure you that it was not a sophisticated thinking and anln ability to produce a result. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 47
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 329
Post ID: 28064
Reply to: 28063
Intuition and happy accident
and the discernment to hear the result.

Thinking about it more, there are 5 coupled dampening mechanisms in effect, 6 if you add the variable resistor.
1. mechanical - the surround and spider create a mechanical spring
2. acoustical - the air in the box creates dampening through compression and rectification and viscosity effects
3. copper shorting rings as discussed
4. mutual acoustic coupling - the resonant couplings between the SS and Tannoy
5. radiation dampening - energy lost from the system to sound
And voice coil electromagnetic dampening if one were to add a variable resistor across the terminals of the SS

Dont buy a lotto ticket because your luck ended the day after THAT night by the sounds of it. no wonder why when one considers the above.

The good news is this is clarifying and i might just have an idea worth exploring.
If it is true that Dannoy special sauce may be coming from Farradays rings then how do we leave that be and counter the phase flip?
My proposal is to use another amplifier with either a 6db or 12db passive low pass filter somwhere around F3 and drive the scan speak with it.

Above xover freq the amplifiers output Independence will be high and leave the voice coil effectively open, so to speak, leaving the dampening to be how we know it, but below xover frequency the impedance is low so the voice-coil starts to conduct and electromechanical dampening enters the picture. This may or may not be beneficial, will have to discover that but the significant thing is we can now force the passive, now passive/active radiator back into phase below F3. 

The level of compensation is adjustable through amplifier gain. The xover point is adjustable through traditional means.
I am seeing in my head this might make the Scanspeak immune to resonate coupling below x-over frequency, leave it to do its own thing above, flattening out the phase curve and allow integration with another channel.
Are seeing the same thing I am here?

If and its a big if, this worked to straighten Dannoys tail out and one could properly integrate other channels, that would be a game changer. That would open up the potential for something like a 10"Dannoy complimented by a 15" Dannoy with 2 x Scanspeak drivers for the 15 dropping that  F3 down even further. That sounds tasty....
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,316
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 330
Post ID: 28065
Reply to: 28064
Good luck to anybody who goes there.
What you saying is fine but there are nuances: it's need to be tried, the results need to be absorbed and properly evaluated, and further steps to tune it up need to be done. It is not about concepts but about small subtleties and small tunings and it is purely a labor of love somebody who will dive into it. I do not think any of it might be try on 10-in driver but 15 in driver has significantly more reserve. If it were up to me I would probably try two passive resonators, one at 20 Hertz and another at 40 Hertz. I would not try to add to the system any additional low frequency sections. Maybe another 15 in red driver without high frequency Twitter. I would not add any additional low frequency section to it. You are absolutely correct, the phase mess will be not resolvable. What surprises me, why Tannoy never went to this direction. I think if they did they would hit a huge success. One way or another I'm glad the time off this project as it has more questions then answers, at least to me.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 47
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 331
Post ID: 28066
Reply to: 28065
A labor of love indeed
I am with you on most of the above except now I DO think the phase flip is resolvable. If, and like you say until tested and absorbed it is an if, if the liniarisation effect can be maintained whilst the phase flip countered then there is no reason why Dannoy cannot be intergrated into any system like any other channel in a sealed enclosure. 

That opens up a lot of possibilities. 
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 628
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 332
Post ID: 28067
Reply to: 28064
Nice!
Edgar, very interesting idea. I see if I manage to get some extra amp and drive the SS like you say. Also the idea of 15" Red + 2xSS sounds cool. Maybe someone has 15" Reds and could try (they are pricey)
But I still have one question that stands unanswered Smile  What happens adding lower channel with the same scanspeak as a passive radiator? Say Romy's 40Hz sealed box, 1 scanspeak active + 1 passive? Then the phase behavior should match that of Dannoy as it is controlled by the passive radiator. The max SPL that such a module can produce will be much lower than the ROmys module with both SS active but still. 


Cheers,
Jarek
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,744
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 333
Post ID: 28068
Reply to: 28067
"The Same Phase Behavior"
Jarek, I also like to try to think a project through as much as I can (stand to) before actually doing it. Though I have not had my first attention on this project, I think (based on experience) it would be hard to predict how phase might impact sound from any of your proposed implementations, not to mention, it's hard to control phase in a reactive system. I'm thinking you will have to actually try it to find out, at least I could not really predict sonic results from any data set I've seen for this so far. I keep thinking, any "offset" might do more audible harm than good.

Paul S
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,316
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 334
Post ID: 28069
Reply to: 28067
I would advise to not waste time on it
Jarek, you cannot have those experiments with 10 in driver as it is already at the bottom of its low frequency capacity. You need to go for 15 in but from low frequency perspective it is a completely different driver and you need to experiment yourself. If you load read this one passive and one active, loaded in the same acoustic volume then it will drive red's low frequency cone way beyond its comfort zone. When I make all those experiments it was very freaky. You can find my posts, I was well documented. As I loaded red as it was to the Scanspeaks as it was the result was wonderful. Any my single attempt trying to improve anything made it worse. From the way how I see it now I do not feel it is a good project for imitation or for research into it deeper. It certainly made red to sound significantly better than it is. It is very addictive and very pleasurable but s voice said above It has very metal application when it shines. It is certainly a good playground to make experiments but I don't think is that it is a fruitful solution to put a high stake upon the idea.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 47
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 335
Post ID: 28070
Reply to: 28067
The question has been answered, indirectly
I was wondering if you had seen it yet. :-)
My answer is it's not going to work. Excluding the remote possibility that the compensation system does work but thats a big if at the moment.
Try answer this question, it might help. For the sake of this, lets say your Dannoys F3 in your room is 25hz. Now picture in your mind how the cone of the Scanspeak and the cone of the Tannoy move with respect to each other in these two scenarios. 
First one i inject a 30hz tone into the room and second scenario I inject 20hz tone into the room. Not through Dannoy but from a separate ULF channel. The answer to your question lies there...

IMG_9004.JPG
03-21-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,744
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 336
Post ID: 28071
Reply to: 28070
F3 = 25Hz?
If this were anywhere near the case it would likely be more than enough, as is. From what Romy has told us there is basically no bottom end with the 10" Red Dunnoy. And the very limited bottom end is "by design" quite unlikely to blend with the TOP END of anything used under it, even if the "ULF" speakers use a passive radiator, not to mention this actually kicks in at that speaker's bottom end. Edgar, I suspect you have more LF from your Dunnoy to start with than Jarek does from his.

Paul S
03-21-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,316
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 337
Post ID: 28072
Reply to: 28070
Thank you for the picture.
Edgar, when you stick your 15-in red into the box and load it to the Sanspeak.... Did you do it in the enclosures that you have in your hands or it was specifically built for this application? Is the last, what you were trying to accomplish and what total resonance frequency you were targeting? What you have supposed to be better solution then 10 in red s15 can handle much more, without being stressed. May I ask you, to describe what problem you can hear in your configuration? I wonder if they are the same as I had eventually with 10 in red

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-23-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 628
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 338
Post ID: 28073
Reply to: 28070
Right
I've been thinking how to counter your argument but looks like I cannot apart from a "majority vote" argument: Using sealed subs and pahse aligning them to Tannoy, below f3 there will be 3 membarnes in phase (Yannoy + 2x active SS) and one out of phase (Fannoy SS PR).  But you are right, sth will always be out of phase below f3 (which seems to be 43Hz in my case) and actually a passive radiator sub looks like a *worse* idea than a sealed one. Sealed one has a smooth phase behavior while a PR sub will add it's phase flip to the Dannoy one. As Paul mentioned things are never ideal so there will be potentially a mess with 2 phase flips close to each other. 
Well, seems that RI is the way to go then. I can add some bass-capable speakers actually using the 8565. Just for completeness, close field response of my Dannoy (about 5cm from the speaker, mid point between the Tannoy and the PR).
Mean field R middle.jpg



Nice Dannoy variation thanks. But isn't one 10" PR too little? I think the rule was at least the cone area of the active driver to limit the excursion. Have you thought of adding 2 scanspeaks?


Cheers,
Jarek
03-23-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,744
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 339
Post ID: 28074
Reply to: 28073
High Passing the Tannoy? Anyone?
Has anyone here has tried simply high passing the 10" Tannoy Red? Say, 200 Hz? This was my long-time strategy for vintage wide-range (aka, "Full Range") drivers, to get more power and better articulation from them by not choking them with LF. Never tried your Scanspeaks, but I imagine they'd be fine to  1.5k, at least?
03-24-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 47
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 340
Post ID: 28075
Reply to: 28071
You would be suprised
at how low the 15 plays in this scenario Paul. Sure higher with the 10" but the 15s play deep. The resonate freq of the Scanspeak is 20hz.
I think the issue is system power levels not F3. I think The efforts for implementing something under Dannoy is more toeards improving that not so much lowering f3.
Dannoys open bottom end sounds really good. I'd be keen to preserve that but somehow being able to go 3 channels. 
03-24-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 47
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 341
Post ID: 28076
Reply to: 28072
Yes, that exact enclosure.
I bought those enclosures from a local old timer who had made them with alot of care. they are heavy! They had a single goodmans driver where you see the Scanspeak now. I swaped it out and installed the Scanspeak and tried different drivers on top. This was before Dannoy and my introduction to THE Scanspeak.
When your Dannoy discovery hit I cut a hole right in the front of the enclosure and bolted the 10" Tannoy in and listened to a LOT of music for days after that. With RI, it was mind blowing. Something very different.
I then pulled the 10s out and glued in 15s. 
The 15 can handle a LOT of amplifier power so that helps in overcoming the limitations of the 10 but it does not sound as good as the 10 in the mid range. Its just not as fast, not as refined and nuanced but still excellent, don't get me wrong.
It's not so much there is any problem, or there is something I don't like, I like it a lot! it's more its a 2 channel system so its never going to be big enough for a main system. Dannoy does have that romantic sound to it but less than a straight up Tannoy. If I were to tire of anything, it would be that but as i'm not relying on this being a primary system, i dont find it a problem.
I am highly satisfied with Dannoy and the lineriazation effect I hear with that configuration. I dont desire more from Dannoy as I'll use it for accoustical spaces that are small and it's a good match for. If i need more than that, well, back to sealed enclosures. 


Now, in saying all that, from what I picked apart this week re Dannoy i do feel that we might be able to decouple the linearization effect from Dannoy, for use in other systems. particularly with higher efficiency drivers that tend to have more cone resonances, It could be very beneficial.
03-24-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 47
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 342
Post ID: 28077
Reply to: 28073
Not potentially a mess
Definitely a mess.   One I would walk away from...
Re RI, you STRICTLY only want to implement rears or the game is off but if you want to talk RI, lets do it in the RI thread.
Re the 10" being too little, think back to the port analogy. What would convention say then about the diameter required for a conventional port? Remembering this 'port' is far more controlled than the mass of air in a conventional port...
03-24-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 628
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 343
Post ID: 28078
Reply to: 28075
Exactly
 Edgar= wrote:

I think the issue is system power levels not F3. I think The efforts for implementing something under Dannoy is more toeards improving that not so much lowering f3.
Dannoys open bottom end sounds really good. I'd be keen to preserve that but somehow being able to go 3 channels.

Exactly that's the point! More power below some 60Hz not lower f3.

Thanks Edgar for the 15" vs 10" comparison. Btw how big is the space that you use with your Dannoys and how far are you from the speakers?

@ Paul _ I have not tried high passing Dannoys but I feel the feeling will be similar to castration. It is the bass where the magic comes from.

Cheers,
Jarek
03-24-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,744
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 344
Post ID: 28079
Reply to: 28074
Conflation
F3 was not cited as a pivot for improvements, it's just a flag. I'm saying the Tannoy is not the only vintage 10" driver that will not actually do LF, regardless of FS, and a proven way to make the most of these drivers is to +/- relieve them of LF duties. Hell, I currently do the same with my own (very modern) 10" MF. I mean, if you like 10" bass, why NOT try doubled Scanspeaks under high-passed, stand-alone Tannoys before trying something more elaborate and costly? And it might be you would lose no more "LF" by high passing than you do now with the PR. You will never wind up with a power house, but you will very likely gain significant headroom. It's so straightforward and easy (also easily reversable...), I can't believe you have not already tried this...

Paul S
03-24-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,316
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 345
Post ID: 28080
Reply to: 28076
Yep, it is unexpectedly and ridiculously good, have no idea right.
Edgar, I know exactly how you feel. I had once a 15-in driver but I had no use from it. Heard in the multiple installations 15 red, included autograph, but always was destructed bite overly romantic and syrupy presentation. This is why I choose 10 red, because I use it for many years injecting very deliberate amount of syrupiness into Macondo. I actually do not have memory why I suddenly decided towards 10 inch red to the sunspeak.  But I very clearly remember exactly how you described that it for whatever reason took a lot of bed euphoric red driver sound away, and kept only vote in my view should be staying there. As I discovered it it was laughable and shocking and it really turned my head off. I hand my entire systems hitting in the room and I have two dirty and shity boxes with two 10-in holes, driven from B2 and connected with zip wires, and they sounded amazing. I still remember the recordings I played and I exactly remember how they sound. I need to admit the guild. Before I released all of this public I called to a friend of mine who manufactures speakers and I told him about discovery. He did not believe me that it might be good. So, I said fuck you then and printed it publicly. I do not know if your explanation why they sound good is correct. However I feel that the people who manufacture right now speakers using vintage Tannoy drivers should certainly make this experiment and then express their "alid" opinions. I need to admit that if somebody suggests to do it for me I would probably discard the suggest as well but it is what it is.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-24-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 47
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 346
Post ID: 28081
Reply to: 28079
You are right Paul
I have tried it Paul, and more. None of them are as good as Dannoy.
I can see it now, It's the linearization effect the Faraday rings have on the system. That is what other systems do not have. It's like adding a choke to a amplifiers power supply. It's a magnetetic phenomenon. It doesnt really dampene the energy, its spreads it out. It takes the high q system resonances and flattens them out. hence the term linearization.
 
03-24-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 47
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 347
Post ID: 28082
Reply to: 28078
My accoustic space
is about 60m3 or 2000ft3
but with openings to other spaces.
It will never be an ideal acoustic space here so I have not put any significant effort into room treatment. except for RI of course hehe, that is some good room treatment.
The action is defiantly nearfeild but in saying that I have a couch by a window in one of the adjoining spaces and the lower knee loads into that corner better than anywhere. It's a devine place to snooze and soak up some sun.
03-24-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 47
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 348
Post ID: 28083
Reply to: 28080
It is ridiculous
Friend after friend leaves astonished saying how "dialled" the sound is and the system was literally slapped together via the path of least resistance just for proof of concept. Development ended there other than adding 2 more braces to the speaker enclosure. The proof is in the fact that it ended there. If i was not satisfied the configuration would have changed by now or been stripped down and replaced with something else. The irony.
03-25-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,744
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 349
Post ID: 28086
Reply to: 28081
Lord of the Rings
Agree that shorting rings, etc. can be useful; my own dynamic drivers (LF and MF) employ them to good effect. One supposes the overall effects of the SS "PR" with your 15" would be less than Jarek's (10+10), and that you would in any case start with more LF and more drive. Jarek has said specifically that he wants more LF and drive for symphonic music, and this prompted my "recommendations", using a least approach.  Romy did a great job of describing both the benefits and the weaknesses of the Dunnoys, and I tried to consider these descriptions, also my own experience. Sure, it's always a matter of taste and satisfaction; we all like what's good.

Best regards
Paul S
03-26-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 628
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 350
Post ID: 28089
Reply to: 28083
This n that
 Edgar= wrote:
Friend after friend leaves astonished saying how "dialled" the sound is and the system was literally slapped together via the path of least resistance just for proof of concept. Development ended there other than adding 2 more braces to the speaker enclosure. The proof is in the fact that it ended there. If i was not satisfied the configuration would have changed by now or been stripped down and replaced with something else. The irony.

I did a bit of this n that: changed the xovers to the modern UK ones, then changed the caps to better, stuffed the cabs with mineral wool, bought nice Cu foil speaker cables etc. But admittedly all that was incremental. I want to try a supertweeter, looking to add some more air and spaciousness. I've been hunting Tannoy ST-50 or -25 for that experiment. I have some gut feeling that the dome supertweetrs, rather than horn or ribbon ones, with their wide angular characteristic will be much better for my job.

As for the bass, I think I give up and move to RI experiments. The only thing that comes to mind would be an identical Dannoy but with the HF disconnected and low passed at some 80Hz. This should have the +/- mathing phase response but I'm reluctant to hunt another pair of Reds as it takes forever here.


Cheers,
Jarek
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  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  710849  07-29-2007
  »  New  Dannoy 2021 Loudspeakers..  It is all bout me....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     24  41343  08-04-2021
  »  New  Bermuda Triangles of Audio..  Tannoy carton issues...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  14802  11-09-2021
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