GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - It is important to differentiate...

12-24-2021

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	151
Post ID:	26617
Reply to:	26616

Magic?

First of all a BIG THANK YOU Romy for taking your time to record this guide!
I understand your warnings of not jumping on the project too early but I see it as a nice opportunity to experiment with compact speakers, suitable for my space. I'm taking my time, hunting Yamaha B2 in EU at the moment.
I understand that the high pass should be organized like that:

Remedies XO.png

I understand the objective is to try to keep the XO point as low as possible, reducing the box volume to get a flat response and a certain sonic "sweet spot", right?

And Romy most importantly, have you managed to regained the original magic? I'm a bit confused, you are probably too Wink

, one time the magic seems to be back just to disappear again soon?
Thank you again, Jarek

PS Happy holiday season to you and all the forumers!

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

12-24-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	152
Post ID:	26618
Reply to:	26617

Try it. You migh like it.

I do not think that magic was gone anywhere, it was just hiding behind my many stupid actions. I was able recreate that magical sound but so far whatever I do to navigate it the weather's need to be sonically I am shutting magic in the butt. it is a slow process and I am learning how to deal with this red driver, I absolutely love what it’s woofer does and to the great degree as I “working” with woofer to make it better possessed sound become better but the magic become shaded. it is slow process I will be there.

The crossover you depicted is incorrect. The Tannoy original crossover is not multi-amped and if implement what you propose then you roll off bass from your woofer but you will also drive yacht filters through the same extra capacitor. you certainly do not want to do it and I would not open to modify the original crossover. The crossover is very simple to rebuild with fixed values and there are plenty of aftermarket crossovers. I bought aftermarket, then modified and made my own, it is truly doesn't matter. still, the concept of Dannoy is Original crossover, the default read driver, loaded into sealed sub 3 cubic feet box, relaxed with the Sanspeak driver. It is possible that the VSET amplification pay a roll in this. I do not know for sure. to make a Long story short here is my take, if you get B2 loaded to Dannoy and you do not feel that something is going on then this project is not for you. Whatever is supposed to happen with this combination is super palatable. at least it was for me. Try it. you might like it. I do not think that if you do not like it you will lose money as the price for these things will just go up and you always will be able to get rid of it. Still, the idea to have two commercial low-fi Products to be used with high end objective is very liberating.

Happy holidays....

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-25-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	154
Post ID:	26620
Reply to:	26616

Not so happy Christmas...

Christmas is a beautiful time for Jewish boy to play this audio project and I did last few days quite a lot of experiments. So far quite disappointing. Did a few implementations to cut off stress on the red woofer and compliment it with 15-in woofer from the bottom. Whatever I did objectively create better sound and perfect measurements, certainly decreased distortions of the red look for the bottom but anything I do touch, does kill the magic. The biggest magic amplitude I have was using small enclosure box and the dannoy configuration with no high-pass filter for woofers. It has very minuscular power handling but it's truly sound and matched. At this point I cannot scale up the same effect for higher volume.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-25-2021

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	155
Post ID:	26621
Reply to:	26620

Off The Wall

Romy, you have said part of the Magic is the interaction between the Red and the Scanspeak "passive radiator". Could it be that reducing LF to the Red would decrease the "potency" of the intraction between the Red and current passive driver? If yes, is it possible that changing something about the passive unit, say Mms/Fs, could provide an avenue for taking a load off the Red, thereby "creating more headroom"? Of course I do not know exactly what Magic you are holding fast to, but I had good luck keeping Tone, etc. when bringing selected paper 15" up to selected paper 10", with acceptable SPL.

Probably a stupid thought that the high-pass X/O for the Red may electrically alter the signal to the balance of the Red driver network...

Best regards,
Paul S

12-27-2021

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	158
Post ID:	26625
Reply to:	26624

The Goose that Laid a Golden Egg

Hope it isn't the case, but it sounds like you have just described "the best sound" (or, in any case, the sound you're after) from Remedios as being limited to 90 dB SPL, through your wide range of experiments with the basic configuration. I don't remember you saying this about the Dannoy. Of course, I might forget my home address... It still "seems like" the passive radiator as you have it would be mostly eating rather than augmenting LF, and LF SPL, as well, by virtue of that. Surely, your Red in "its native environment" plays louder than 90 dB?

Best regards,
Paul S

12-28-2021

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	159
Post ID:	26626
Reply to:	26624

Show me your midbass and I will understand your system…

I really notice the absence of any discussion of the melody range. Tannoy tweeter and red midbass seem to be getting all of the attention. I wonder if the reds problem with loud, may be located in the melody range. The problem is something I would probably call Kolbrek and Dunker about.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

12-29-2021

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anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #:	160
Post ID:	26627
Reply to:	26624

It would be a Christmas Miracle...

...if a 50yo 8" woofer could do much more than 90dB at 50Hz with anything approaching 'ease'. Remedies in this configuration are a lot like small 2-way standmounts in that we are trying to get a lot of bass output from something small and excursion is the killer. Even though some modern smaller drivers can sound ok at higher excursion I am yet to hear anything that does a decent job in the midbass region at anything like concert level SPL when used in a two-way and I see no reason why the Tannoy Reds would be any different.

It sucks. But short of paralleling them, I'm unable to suggest a way to get past the volume issue. Perhaps another few driven Scanspeak woofers with an appropriate bandpass filter may get more SPL in the midbass while keeping as much as possible of the Tannoy Red resonant magic. At least you could trial this with the Dunlavy towers.

12-29-2021

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	161
Post ID:	26628
Reply to:	26624

One can't cheat physics...

...as anthony points out, but sometimes one can cheat the brain. You mentioned the 100uF caps, here is an interesting film one:
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/obo080-100uf-400v-obbligato-film-capacitors-p-9107.html
Never tried myself but they got a good feedback some time ago.

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

12-29-2021

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Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #:	162
Post ID:	26629
Reply to:	26625

90 Db

I have the original Dannoy's. While i still have not gotten the sdound that Romy did in his room, it is still very good. Using biamped Yamaha B2 amplifiers driven by a Trinnov 16 pre-pro, recently updated by sdoftware to 20 channels. The speakers are crossed over Linhiwirz reilly 24 dB to JL Audio FW113 Subwoofers at 60 Hz. at present. In my room which is 28 x 16 x 14 ft. i can get peaks of about 92 dB at the listening position without distortion, which is about as loud as my ears will tolerate with Bruckner.Unhappily, I am getting a weird after-note dsitorted echo from the right speaker. I have transposed the Tannoy and ScanSpeak drivers, replaced my Tannoy with one of Romy's,the crossovers, amplifiers and even the outputs of the right and left channels of the Trinnov, and still have the distortion out of the same box. The box seems sound with no leaks. Any ideas as to possible cause? Otherwise happy with the sound. Also listened to Romy's speakers for a short time last week. He may not be happy with the sound, but to my ears it was very good, although not quite up to what he had obtained with the Dannoys I have. Don't know how or why.Bill

12-29-2021

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	163
Post ID:	26630
Reply to:	26629

If You're Happy, It's Good Enough

Bill, I had an issue like you described with your right speaker that I FINALLY traced to a "cold" solder joint in an RCA plug, on the amp end of the right pre-to-amp IC. To my ears, the old paper drivers are very, very sensitive to their "surroundings", with audible differences from small variations of any imaginable sort. Even with a 24 dB slope you are asking "LF" from a driver that appears to be "out of gas" at 92 dB, as you are using it Romy is coming from drivers that still have 20 dB headroom at 92 dB. It's hard to compensate for a lack of driver headroom, which means in this case, one would have to "listen around it", preferably by being absorbed by other aspects of the Music.

Best regards,
Paul S

12-31-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	164
Post ID:	26638
Reply to:	26626

Why?

rowuk wrote:
I really notice the absence of any discussion of the melody range. Tannoy tweeter and red midbass seem to be getting all of the attention. I wonder if the reds problem with loud, may be located in the melody range. The problem is something I would probably call Kolbrek and Dunker about.

Rowuk, my feeling is that you never were as wrong as anything which is going on here is strictly about Dannoy’s melody range, sort of Dannoy’s tessitura. I do not think that Tannoy tweeter even was in attrition. The mid and upper bass are but they are very much the part of the melody range, even more. The whole attention is to the 50-150 Hz region, what is kind of the very bottom of the melody range but it feels that if it is not cared on by the Red then the whole card house collapses for some reasons.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

01-01-2022

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	167
Post ID:	26641
Reply to:	26640

I do not know where I'm going to go from here...

Here is where I stay with my enigmatic Remedios project. I build inside of top box at resonator that I tuned 50-60 hertz. So basically it is under two square foot enclosure with a port tune at the bottom of resonance frequency. The port is shooting into another sealed enclosure, so instead of the gane eat dumb resonance frequency and subtract Port gain. A result I have pretty much a speaker and resonator in the same sealed enclosure. It is very effective and it feels like it's produced less damage than capacitor and coil filtration. I have more tolerant driver behavior at 50 Hertz. Still I drive red with a full range, which unfortunately have impact to its dynamic compression. As soon I begin to low pass it I am losing the sound of the whole driver. This this acoustic resonator subtraction it makes it kind of listenable all around at moderate volume. I use it as is with no mid-bas support but just with my open bottle subwoofer. It sounds fine and with each extra decibels of volume it sounds worse. It is what it is and I'm not sure that I know the way out.

It is very interesting if I visit somebody and somebody that showed me the same sound then I would call it yellow driver type of sound as dynamic restrictions are super obvious. It is absolutely remarkably tonaly but for complex and dense music it is very challenging.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

01-01-2022

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	168
Post ID:	26642
Reply to:	26641

It is so different

What is very interesting that this box loudspeakers behave kind of strange. For instance near field does not work as a effectively as with horns. With horns the closer you to the speakers, the more aggressively you are in your field the more direct sound you have and more Dynamics you have. This my current loudspeaker nearfield do not work as effective despite they are single point source. I have more than less good balance and maximum Dynamics somewhere around 9-10 ft, or even more. This is completely different presentation and I'm not saying that I do not like it but it just not what I'm used to. Ironically what absolutely distract me in the near field is the fact that reds cannot play soft. It is so different.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

01-18-2022

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Terry Maddocks
United Kingdom
Posts 5
Joined on 04-04-2017

Post #:	171
Post ID:	26690
Reply to:	26689

Lamb dressed as mutton?

I don't know if that translates Transatlantic?.. It seems Romy fell for the perfect 10 when he came across her naturally in her rural idyll.. Now she has been moved up to the big city and wrapped in that pretty frock and boutique accoutrement?..her charms are lost.. Return that beauty to her natural state and enjoy? Is a bigger version of the current problem the solution?

"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Sergei Rachmaninoff

01-19-2022

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	172
Post ID:	26691
Reply to:	26690

Moved to Try

Terry, while your point is well taken, and it's been put several ways by several of us since posts of the Remedios experiement began, I think Romy's idea has pretty much stayed rooted in an intra-personal experiment with how he "felt" when hearing the Dannoys, which were already aberrations of "vintage" speakers and vintage sound. The experiment seems to have been a sort of "turning things inside-out" to "develop" what he had heard into full range speakers, using a different, sort of quasi, "logic". Can't even remember how many times I've run aground chasing similar fancies.

Best regards,
Paul S

02-02-2022

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	174
Post ID:	26694
Reply to:	26693

Using Which Recipe?

Jarek, where will you start? Even "using your ears" requires some sort of baseline, if to avoid the insanity of "random experiments". Enclosure volume and baffle size are variables in terms of sound, along with crossovers, and anything else you might mention. You should have quite a cookbook of your own in no time!

Best regards
Paul S

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