GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - I do not know where I'm going to go from here...

05-02-2022

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	201
Post ID:	26767
Reply to:	26766

EU

Hi Bill, I'd take them but I'm in EU. Send me a private mess pls, might be the shipping costs will not kill the deal.
B2- thanks! I'd love to bypass that commutation crap. The volume controls are the worst in my B2, really cutting the sound.

Cheers,
Jarek
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05-22-2022

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	204
Post ID:	26777
Reply to:	26765

Measurements

I changed the crossovers to the UK ones and made some measurements on my Dannoys. The crossovers are set to the Standard treble mode (I guess that is position 2 on the original Tannoy grey box crossover) and no 3kHz notch filter. Green curve - Left speaker, Blue curve - Right.

1. Left speaker has some strange dip at 78Hz. Crossovers is OK, so the only possibilities are B2 or left Red itself. Anyone had similar issue?
2. The treble response rises past 1.2kHz no idea why as there is no HF boost set.

Cheers,
Jarek
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05-22-2022

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Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #:	205
Post ID:	26778
Reply to:	26777

Crossover problems

Had problems 2 and 3 here with my British crossovers

Both speakers have the 78 hz. Dip after a 50 hz. Peak. they are probably room resonances. Try moving the speakers and/ or the mike and remeasure.

Also you have the same 1.2 kHz I saw with my British crossovers. Try reversing 5he tweeter leads and see what happens. Turned out the crossover reversed the polarity and the crossover is set at 1.2 kHz. With a second order 12 db crossover without correction for the phase reversal of the tweeter. Emailed the guy about this and he agreed. Found that by using the trinnov processor. Just reverse the tweeter leads and remeasure.

Also you may want to adjusting the dip switches for position 3 to despcrease the extra tweeter output by about 3-5 dB.

05-24-2022

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	206
Post ID:	26783
Reply to:	26778

Dope

Hi Bill,
Re 1. the UK gentleman says the 78Hz dip can be due to the age-stiffened surround of the bass driver (I looked at Romy's measurements of original Dannoys and they have it too). My surrounds are covered with the original "sticky dope". The speaker with the deeper dip has actually small wooden parts stuck to the surround. The UK guy suggests cleaning and re-doping with his solution.
Re 2&3 will try, thanks.

Cheers,
Jarek
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05-28-2022

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	207
Post ID:	26790
Reply to:	26778

More progress

Bill wrote:
Had problems 2 and 3 here with my British crossovers
Both speakers have the 78 hz. Dip after a 50 hz. Peak. they are probably room resonances. Try moving the speakers and/ or the mike and remeasure.
Also you have the same 1.2 kHz I saw with my British crossovers. Try reversing 5he tweeter leads and see what happens. Turned out the crossover reversed the polarity and the crossover is set at 1.2 kHz. With a second order 12 db crossover without correction for the phase reversal of the tweeter. Emailed the guy about this and he agreed. Found that by using the trinnov processor. Just reverse the tweeter leads and remeasure.
Also you may want to adjusting the dip switches for position 3 to despcrease the extra tweeter output by about 3-5 dB.

Ad 2. Indeed you re right, inverting the tweeter ameliorated greatly the 1.2Hz suck out:
Inverted(purple)vsNoninvertedHF.jpg

I got some 5kHz & 8kHz peaks - this must be coming from my measuring setup, could not trace it and ignored.
Ad3. Putting the treble cut on the UK crossover alone did almost nothing (turquoise curve) but the HF cut + 3kHz notch filter
did attenuate the HF (dark green curve). No idea why so.

InbvertedHFStandard(purple)vsCut(green)vs3kHz(darkgreen).jpg

InbvertedHFStandard(purple)vsCut(green)vs3kHz(darkgreen).jpg

All started to sound very nicely, there is a certain magic in it. Next things to do:
- remove the old dope and put new on the Reds'

- B2 bypassing mod (new RCA sockets, bypassing the input crap, detachable power cord).

Cheers,
Jarek
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05-29-2022

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	208
Post ID:	26791
Reply to:	26790

A question

N-set, besides the fact that you are struggling with whatever crossover or any other problem you have I wonder what's your feeling about the difference in a sound this configuration offer? Is I understand you have B2, Reds, default crossover and sunspeak passive radiator. When you put all of it together, did you detect the main message of this application?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-29-2022

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	209
Post ID:	26792
Reply to:	26791

Hard to say now

Only yesterday I started to get some interesting results after tuning the UK crossovers. But still not near to the sound I'm getting from my electrostatic headphone setup. I assume my Dannoy setup is quite compromised: one of the original crossovers is probably dry and one speaker had little bass, B2's input crap is still not bypassed and it produces some distortion, in lieu of a better solution I'm using the C1 pre. I want to push it to a logical end: bypass B2 input commutators, make my own pre a la Anthony with 801A, treat Reds' surrounds with the UK gentleman's solution to soften them. We will see what happens then.

Cheers,
Jarek
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05-29-2022

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	210
Post ID:	26793
Reply to:	26792

Precautions

Jarek, you've probably already thought of this, but not to leave it unsaid: If there is any chance for cone displacement when you mess with the surround (and/or the spyder), I recommend you first work out some shims to put in the magnetic gap, or otherwise control the location of the former/voice coil for an even gap through the process. Also, if you are doing anything with the spyder, I recommend letting one set up before starting the other.

Best regards,
Paul S

05-29-2022

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mats
Chicago
Posts 85
Joined on 09-18-2005

Post #:	211
Post ID:	26794
Reply to:	26792

Before Notched

Hi Jarek-
Congratulations on your brave pursuit.
I’ve admired your efforts all along.
I liked the look of the graph on 5.22 before you applied the notch filter.
If you inserted a Speakerformer from Intact Audio between your crossover
and the HF driver you should be able to match levels really well.
My experience with the Speakerformer is that they are transparent.
Best to you,
Mats

05-30-2022

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	212
Post ID:	26795
Reply to:	26793

More info

Paul S wrote:
Jarek, you've probably already thought of this, but not to leave it unsaid: If there is any chance for cone displacement when you mess with the surround (and/or the spyder), I recommend you first work out some shims to put in the magnetic gap, or otherwise control the location of the former/voice coil for an even gap through the process. Also, if you are doing anything with the spyder, I recommend letting one set up before starting the other.

Paul, the treatment of the surrounds as far as I understand is application of a special solvent to remove the old dope and then re-doping. Doesn't seem like an dangerous operation but I've never done it so who knows. Will watch for not displacing the cone too much, thanks for the warning.

Mats, thanks. The sonic difference is not big actually (ignore the massive 8kHz peak, this must be my soundcard/software). The unnotched sound is a bit more catchy and sparkling at first. If I want it I can easily comeback.

Cheers,
Jarek
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05-30-2022

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	213
Post ID:	26796
Reply to:	26795

Removing Old Dope

Jarek, I don't know your iteration of Tannoy Red specifically, but if the surround is a pleated continuation of the paper cone then you can't be too careful. It often happens that the paper under the coating is no longer very strong, and it can sustain irreparable damage if you need to scrape it to get the softened dope off. You might try artist's pallette knives if you need to scrape. They come in many shapes and sizes, with varying stiffness. Artist brushes are useful for applying the acetone, or whatever solvent you will be using. Start small, to get a feel for how the solvent affects the paper. Some of the old paper barely reacts to the solvent, and some of it soaks up a shocking amount. And some paper gets soft from the solvent. Obviously, you want to get the old dope off without scraping 1/2 way through the paper. And you may well find you have to be especially careful on the creases!

Best regards,
Paul S

06-06-2022

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	215
Post ID:	26802
Reply to:	26801

Solvent

Jarek, those are good photos, but I still can't be sure. Are you sure the surrounds are paper, or might they be [partly] thin cloth? Whatever, there's a good chance that any solvent that will soften the dope that's on the surrounds will also soften adhesive that bonds the cone to the surround, or, if there are two pieces involved in the surround, those are likely glued together, also. It is typical of all speaker mfgs that they change things like surrounds almost willy-nilly, without so much as changing part numbers, and, as you likely know, there are several iterations of Tannoy Reds floating around, not to mention plenty that have been repaired. Perhaps there's something worth seeing from the back side? In any case, start small, and take it easy. Do a little work and let it dry, let any softened glue re-set (if it will...) before starting up again. If any glued-up parts come apart, I recommend you glue them back before continuing, unless you have a good plan for keeping or restoring the cone/voice coil where it is, relative to the gap. Obviously, if any part of the surround is foam, solvent may well melt it, and you probably can't scrape it without destroying it. I have seen plenty of the black dope used for repairing cracked and/or torn surrounds, which are revealed if/as the dope is scraped off.

Best regards,
Paul S

06-07-2022

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	216
Post ID:	26803
Reply to:	26802

Thanks Paul

Given the delicate nature of the process + difficulties in finding reds, I think I will skip the process for now and concentrate on improving B2.

Cheers,
Jarek
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06-07-2022

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	217
Post ID:	26804
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Ask Me How I Know...

I have about 50 old "special" drivers, and I have wrecked quite a few trying to make them "better". It's slow and imprecise going without manufacturing capabilities. I have successfully replaced surrounds and spyder using "factory" or "factory replica" parts, but other surgeries and transplants have mostly not improved things enough overall to be worth the efforts, not to mention permanently altering the drivers. It may well be that someone has done what you want to do, and you might even find it on YouTube. But best to be able to "see it through" in your mind before taking a scalpel to a driver. Like I said before, not all the "Tannoy Red" surrounds are the same, to begin with.

Good luck with the B2. I think Sony had a similar amp, which they called the Esprit. Very nice amps, in their day.

Best regards,
Paul S

06-26-2022

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	218
Post ID:	26816
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Almost a year later...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-27-2022

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anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #:	219
Post ID:	26817
Reply to:	26816

A sit-in

Romy, I feel as though I've been a fly-on-the-wall during a session between you and your audio shrink. What you said does seem to make sense especially in terms of your previous postings on the subject. Not sure how you are ever going to achieve what you are now looking for...or perhaps that is the point...not to achieve it but for it to "happen".

06-28-2022

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	220
Post ID:	26820
Reply to:	26817

Ping Anthony

Hi Anthony, sorry for off topic but have been trying to contact you re your 801A preamp in your 801A thread. Would appreciate sharing some details as I'm planing to construct sth similar. Thanks

Cheers,
Jarek
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07-01-2022

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	221
Post ID:	26824
Reply to:	26816

Freak of nature?

As I was not present during the magic moment of the Dunnoys (or Dannoys), I can not assume anything but considering the initial aftermath documented here, perhaps that "moment" had more to do with stars/sun/moon lining up, DPOLS for a week or a specific recording matching the demands of the playback.
I can't get it through my head that the Dunnoys can even be close to offering playback over a large selection of classical genres. Chamber music maybe.
I fully understand the desire for just wanting to be part of the audience instead of booking the hall, the musicians, the conductor, selling tickets.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

07-30-2022

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	222
Post ID:	26841
Reply to:	26792

B2 problem

N-set wrote:
Only yesterday I started to get some interesting results after tuning the UK crossovers. But still not near to the sound I'm getting from my electrostatic headphone setup. I assume my Dannoy setup is quite compromised: one of the original crossovers is probably dry and one speaker had little bass, B2's input crap is still not bypassed and it produces some distortion, in lieu of a better solution I'm using the C1 pre. I want to push it to a logical end: bypass B2 input commutators, make my own pre a la Anthony with 801A, treat Reds' surrounds with the UK gentleman's solution to soften them. We will see what happens then.

I finally bypassed the B2 input board, keeping the original input impedance (soldered 1.5k/25k resistors at the inpout). This didn't change the sound much so far and my main problem persisted - one amp channel is -15dB down at bass (at 60Hz). This is for sure the amp not the speakers. I thought it was the input crap but it is sth more serious. Any B2 specialists?

Cheers,
Jarek
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08-02-2022

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	224
Post ID:	26847
Reply to:	26842

Bass for Dannoys?

After a provisional cleaning of my crappy Yamaha C2 preamp, I got +/- balanced bass and then made a bit of discovery: Changed the parallel R in the HF circuit of the UK crossover from 50R to 25R (and switched the xcover to the treble boost mode which did nothing). The motivation was to give more HF energy as the current listening space is hopelessly overdamped. This was an "a-ha! moment" ! Something started to appear. The sound is very different from a typical "audiophile sound", I sort of start to get the "different reference chart" thing as it's very much outside of the typical audio rooms. Musical, seductive with a bass I'd like to lick. It is still a far cry from the emotional involvement I'm getting with my electrostatic headphones and it is still "constipated" (forget big orchestras or opera at the moment). I'd like to try to break this barier and see what happens. One obvious direction is the preamp and I'm working on it. Another is getting a matching bass under 60Hz. Romy tried with AK151 with the Remedies but it didn't work. I was thinking of infinite baffles, two drivers per channel, reaching ~91dB. The only place I could eventually mount them is quite untypical -- hanging from the ceiling above the speakers. I'm fantasizing triangular manifolds with the openings firing towards the listening position. I have no experience with IB, so any comments welcome. Does this make sense? Romy have you tried your IB's with your Dannoys during "that event"?

Cheers,
Jarek
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08-14-2022

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	225
Post ID:	26862
Reply to:	26847

Bass for Dannoys cont.

After fantasizing about an infinite baffle, I calculated what kind of structure I'd have to build (in lieu of an attic/crawlspace) and this is an obvious no-go. A more practical idea is a sealed box with two parallel ScanSpeaks per channel. This should be just about enough to match the sensitivity of Dannoys. 40-41Hz boxes should be ok. I'm thinking of suspending them from the ceiling. The space is too small to put them on the floor as Dannoys are only about 2m apart and 2.4m to the listening spot. The ceiling position will give a ceiling reinforcement plus chance to time align them on an arch (or actually a half-sphere). Your opinions, gentlemen?

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

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»	New	Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..	A link to another thread....	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	120	680438	07-29-2007
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