GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site

11-26-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	126
Post ID:	26578
Reply to:	26577

Agree.

You are absolutely correct. This is exactly what you describe and that is why I'm so surprised is that it sounds more interesting that anything I was exposed before. Sorry, I do not have luxury to think that I am idiot or that I do not know what I'm doing.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-26-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	128
Post ID:	26580
Reply to:	26579

Agree...

Wojtek, this is the whole astonishment of the story. There are no space flying technologies, no 30 years of research and investigation in a secretive lab which specialize on a submarine sonars, there's no capacitors made from unobtainium deelectric, and there are no recently discovered Beethoven letters that composing his 15 quartet he was thinking about cable elevators from a specific company. From high-and prospective that ingredient of solutions that I am experimenting right now are pretty much garbage. That result very much simulates me, and I hope that I will be able to repeat it. Even if I will not be able to the experience with Dannoy made me to think very different from the prospective of machine to human interaction in high-end idea. It is not really about sound that playback produces but it is about sound that a listener consumes. We know a lot about sounds that come from playback but we know very little how are brain interprets the heard. That configuration that I experimented lately did somehow hit that g-spot. Do I need to care why didn't have that orgasm or do you think I would instead enjoy the ride?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-28-2021

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	130
Post ID:	26582
Reply to:	26581

The More Than One Way Way

Romy, I was reading one of your posts from 2009 that addressed the matter of perception, and as I listened to your most recent video last night I remembered Dr. Gizmo and his (often cartoonish) rants along similar lines. At some point, if we are going to have repeatable It, we have to have Sound that can deliver It for us. While Gizmo insisted on a fairly specific formula, I am pretty sure at this point that ones personal journey can lead to a personal solution, albeit it might not be a permanent solution. I say this because I have had several systems that provided "sufficient It" for many years at a time, ranging from Horns via PP, sealed boxes via PP and SS, FR via SET, to multi-driver stacks and piles driven by PP, SET, and SS again. All these systems sounded different, one from the others. It has never been the case for me that I was awash in It every time I played Music via any system I ever had, over an extended (indefinite) period of time. It has always been the case for me that I get more or less It from a given configuration on a session-to-session basis, and then I want to "hear things differently" at some point. It is interesting for me to think this process does not have to do with Sound, as I have always paid a good deal of attention to Sound as I have developed and shaped my systems. Certainly, in the end, I have "rated" my own systems on Musical "Satisfaction", which I put in quotes because what keeps my interest at any given point in time seems to vary, at least somewhat. Hard to imagine stopping on one "formula".

Best regards,Paul S

11-28-2021

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	131
Post ID:	26583
Reply to:	26582

Recipe from my youth

Paul S wrote:
...Certainly, in the end, I have "rated" my own systems on Musical "Satisfaction", which I put in quotes because what keeps my interest at any given point in time seems to vary, at least somewhat. Hard to imagine stopping on one "formula".

Best regards,Paul S

Funny, with me, the formula has not really changed since the mid 70s - a plausible reconstruction for row 15 listening. Maybe this is a result of getting a degree in music performance? It is what I hear in my head when reading a score too.
The frequency response at my listening seat has always been angled down regardless if it was AR LST, AR 10pi or the various DIY stuff. The full range stuff was too in my face, as was the early horn experiments.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

11-28-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	132
Post ID:	26584
Reply to:	26583

Nowadays I convinced in opposite

Funny, with me, the formula has not really changed since the mid 70s - a plausible reconstruction for row 15 listening

Ironically, this is exactly what lately I advocate against. And this is a very important message that I would like to delegate. In my view reconstruction or better to say reinstating of auditable environment for row 15 is only Sonic other objective and I believe it is very secondary our objective. We are operating under presumption that if we put a subject (listener) in the similar environment where he or she can receive the same messages as during life event then it automatically assure success of audio event. I feel it is wrong, or would this way it is not completely right. I can give you a dozens examples which proves it. The simplest would be you sitting at row 15 and somebody who is not familiar with classical repertoire at all. Both of you will be receiving in your seats The identical musical messages but the audio communication event will have different results for you and a little informed person.

Think about a concept that a regular person and a great writer can express. One person pass a data about the subject of writing and another person create a long-lasting memorable artistic impressions. The very same with playback. Different playbacks have different capacity to impregnate sonic messages with artistic payload. I know something how to make playback to sound good but I am not informed how to make amplifier or speaker to enriched audio sound with imaginative values. This is exactly my problem with my Macondo. I can make it sound supposedly beautiful but I do not know which gear to lubricate an order make sound more artistically potent. This is exactly why I grabs this Dannoy opportunity as for some reason it is more artistically capable.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-28-2021

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	133
Post ID:	26586
Reply to:	26584

Maybe not "right" but...

My playback is specifically for ME. I am not so much interested in hearing if the trumpet player farts, but am very interested in the orchestral fabric and how players move their instruments in and out of that. Row 15, refers to my favorite row at the Alte Oper in Frankfurt. I am far enough away that I do not have to turn my head to focus any of the sound events from the stage. At this position, I have a balanced experience for direct vs room sound. Power is transferred to my body and ears in a "natural" way. At that seat, the articulation and expression is natural and as complex as it needs to be to get "IT".

Row 15 at home means that essentially regardless of the recording, the audio event is such that I do not "need" an imaging artifact to impress me. Power (< 250 Hz) is transferred naturally, and clarity is such that it melds with my reading of the score (either in my head or on paper). It is NOT a conductors view. This most certainly is a distortion of the recorded reality (that has all of the microphones closer than "row 15") but one that I have found answers for.

In any case, right or wrong, the "faults" in my playback are well known to me and not yet in the way.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

11-28-2021

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Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #:	134
Post ID:	26588
Reply to:	26584

Not possible

It’s impossible to reconstruct the row 15 sound wit a stereo setup for two reasons.1. The vast majority of recordings have the mikes placed either above the conductor or the first row of seats, or worse, in the middle of the orchestra.2. A recording engineer acquaintance of mine did a study of Avery Fisher and Carnegie Hall, and found that from about the 3rd or 4th row on, a large percentage of the sound is hall reverberation, which cannot be recreated by two speakers. Only a “surround” system ( sorry Romy) with either multichannel recordings, or ambiance capture from the original recording, or recreation a la Romy can successfully recreate row 10/or 20 or 30 depending on the multi speaker configuration and the process. I've found that only Romy's method, andAuro 3 D can do it properly. Both day lay and dts screw it up. Of course, multichannel recording with proper miking do it also, but are few and far between.

11-28-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	135
Post ID:	26589
Reply to:	26586

It is important to differentiate...

rowuk, everthing you said is fine but it describea the construction of sonic characteristics of event. Yes to the certain degree restructure Sonic characteristics in accordance to our preference is fine. You my drink water and you might drink vodka. Both of them transparent liquid and from point of audio when you pull both of them in a glass they deliver the same sound. However they produce different impact to the participants. So, it is not external evidences but the intrinsic context of the core. You might have one playback with a Polish soprano sinhs Germanic repertoire and to feel annoyed by her accent and you might have the same recording play on another playback and you instead of annoyance will appreciate her trying .. what I am saying that playback certainly deliver sound but also it delivers let's call it at lubrication for sound which make consumption of Sonic messages to be more palatable for our conscious. This aspect, is this MSG for music, this psychophysical Force that presumably play back capable more or less is something which very much fascinates me. If I know what not to adjust in order to moderate a playback in that direction I would certainly enable Macondo to do it. The problem is that I do not know what it is. At this point I know that it is not a Boolean Force but it is a Spectra. It might be more or might be less of "it". The next step would be to say why but I'm not going there because I do not know. Anyhow what is important for me to emphasize that it is not about sound but about enabling Force within sound....

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-28-2021

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anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #:	136
Post ID:	26590
Reply to:	26589

Magic Foo

Romy the Cat wrote:
.. what I am saying that playback certainly deliver sound but also it delivers let's call it at lubrication for sound which make consumption of Sonic messages to be more palatable for our conscious. This aspect, is this MSG for music, this psychophysical Force that presumably play back capable more or less is something which very much fascinates me. If I know what not to adjust in order to moderate a playback in that direction I would certainly enable Macondo to do it. The problem is that I do not know what it is.

Romy, I still don't really know what you are actually describing in terms of the experience you are getting from Dannoy, I'm not sure I have ever experienced it, or if I have I've certainly never thought of it in the same way, and to be honest I started to think along the lines that this is something very personal to you which will not necessarily translate to another, but Bill seems very keen on it too, so perhaps it is more contagious that I initially presumed. In terms of Macondo, I don't run the Injection Channel, which I assumed you needed to inject some colour to the sound but I must say the system seems very responsive to different electronics including the preamp and dac/phonostage. My experience to date is much less extensive than yours, but adding a high performing DHT preamp to Macondo has been one of the best things I have done...sort of like your experience with Dannoy it just worked first time...no fiddling.

Hopefully you will figure out where the magic foo emanates from Dannoy and be able to infect other loudspeakers.

11-28-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	137
Post ID:	26591
Reply to:	26590

Fooooooo...

Everything is possible. Although I believe that my personal experiences are universal experience and common to all people but I hope you not truly believe that I subscribe this is my own statement. Perception is reality and we certainly understand world through the prism of our perception. It is possible that I got super fascinated with some of the aspects of Dannoy and in few months or years I changed my mind. What I certainly feel now that Milq and Macondo where spectacular machines to produce sound but in this stage of my development, or the gradation, who knows, I am not looking for better sound but instead I'll looking for for higher yield of those times I spent in front of loudspeakers. I want those listening experiences to have more potency and more impact not by the virtue of wonderful performance, which is self-explanatory, but the virtue of stimulated performance of playback. I am not talking about permanent expressive distortions but I rather am talking about play back to be more l ethal in term machine / human interaction. For whatever reason my accidental Dannoy is orders of magnitude easier sandbox to play and have that expressive l ethality much more advanced. So I have much bigger head start with Dannoy.

In terms of preamps. You know that I disagree with you and despite the tie did not see any other preamps for 20 years I have quite confidence in Plasset. Saying all of it I could literally recognize the tie do not drive is my preamp 12 low impedance channels and I do not necessarily will be stuck with Placcet permanently in case I live myself with Dannoy. Frankly I care about this very little as my primary objective now is to finish Remidios the Beauty and two learn that it will have the same metaphorical potency as Dannoy did. That box speakers configuration is a different animals that I forgot how to deal with, I have changed my room in order to accommodate Remidios and I am very excited to start experiment with this. Probably new panels will be arriving this week.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-28-2021

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mats
Chicago
Posts 85
Joined on 09-18-2005

Post #:	138
Post ID:	26592
Reply to:	26590

Event

In the latest video Romy speaks of a metaphor generator.
An audio experience for the purpose of making one a better person.
One might think of this as a personal event, with a retroversive effect,
allowing the past to appear in a new way,
and as such it could also alter the how it informs the path ahead.
Something like this, Hegel might call totality.
Maybe even freedom.
-Mats

12-11-2021

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Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #:	141
Post ID:	26606
Reply to:	26604

My Dannoy update

Prior to three days ago, i was almost ready to give up on the Dannoy's as I couldn't get close to the sound heard at Romy's with his setup of the same speakers. Then i was able to add my newly obtained Yamaha B2 amps, and was once more inspired with two nights of pleasurable listening.
thus, Romy came over yesterday to help me voice my Dannoy's as I have added my Yamaha B2 amps, and a new crossover from England which he had recommended. So, except for the source and d/a convertor, using my JL Audio subwoofers instead of Romy's subs, and the room, the setup was similar to what it was at his place.
After voicing, and getting closer to what we heard at Romy's, the DSP correction on the Trinnov pre-pro showed a 2 dB hump from 30 to 60 Hz and a 24 dB dropoff from 30 Hz. down. Also, i might add, the Trinnov graph showed a 10 dB sharp dropoff at 1100 Hz., which was not there with the original crossovers.
After he left, I also changed out one of my Tannoy drivers with one of Romy's, as i was hearing a slight buzz from mine which appeared to be coming from the driver. The buzz went away. I then did a repeat DSP correction on the Trinnov for the new driver, being careful to recreate the curves which we had obtained that morning.
Last night was one of the best recreations of sound that I've had in my room, especially after turning on the Auro 3D processing adding hall space. While not quite up to what i had heard in Romy's room. probably secondary to my inferior digital sourcing, it was again enthralling to the point that i stayed up way past my normal bedtime. In addition to coming close to that magic sound heard at his place, I could also hear such things as tape hiss, vinyl rush, and increase hall atmosphere information not heard before. Don't understand why, but any increase in information is good.
i only hope now that he has received the front panels. that Romy will be able to recreate what we had in his room.
Bill

12-11-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	142
Post ID:	26607
Reply to:	26604

Very depressing indeed

It is quite depressing. I got the panels install them to the speakers, mounted the drivers, staffed was there boxes and connected. I do not think I needed to do anything else. Is the sound to supposedly horrible and I am little bit puzzled. The speakers image virtually identical regardless of polarity of right and left channels. I never seen anything like this. The hope is impatient kind of ugly. But the most important that it feels that inside each sound there is some kind of microscopic bill. It is so ugly is that I am shutting down and going to sleep...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-12-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	143
Post ID:	26608
Reply to:	26607

Okay, all mysteries are gone

There is an ancient Hebrew proverb saying that if you have problems and go sleep. Last night as I connected the new assembled Remedius it was so bad that I indeed went to sleep, hugely disappointed. Had an ugly dream, wake up and immediately see why it sounded so bad. It's turned out that I have two problems.

First, the original crossover that I used is my third crossover and it has burned low frequency cap. As a result that woofers log past crossover has not second order but first order, which explains ringing. The excessive high frequency from one side woofer surely responsible for imaging collapsing but there was something even more ugly. I used 2 B2 amplifiers strapped as two channels monoblock. It's turned out then one of amplifiers had approximately 2 decibel more gane. All of it made in phase and outer fhase results equally bad.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-13-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	144
Post ID:	26609
Reply to:	26608

Kind of disturbing...

As I'm crossing Red Driver now and feeling up the space at the bottom by 15 in Vitavox I do have extremely surprising for me Dynamics. With abrapt dynamic range changed sound jumps out of Remedius like a wounded in the ass gazelle. I am not kidding it is actually even more interesting that I had this horns as it does it in a much more kinder way. Seal in here I see the greatest liability of Remedius. Even though produce sensational dynamics, kind of a typical for 93 db sensitivity but if the sound already relatively loud then it has no headroom to punch good Dynamics above. The horns handle it beautifully. This characteristics with Remedius is not a deal breaker but quite annoying to me personally. I did not try any multi amplification yet.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-13-2021

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	145
Post ID:	26610
Reply to:	26609

Headroom for Vintage Drivers

How does the SPL/dynamic range correlate to frequency? Most of the old 10" drivers can play louder if not pushed down too far. I think as the years passed, the Tannoy had like most similar drivers a sort of "sliding scale" dynamics, and they would play louder, but it took exponentially more power to get each dB of more SPL. This started happening as SS amps came on the scene, and the makers never turned back after that, apart from some of the "boutique" drivers, like Phy, etc. I heard some earlier Tannoy monitors driven by the old (Sony) Esprit amps, and it sounded great to me, at least tor those days. Very rare and expensive amps back then... Also had a tape source, BTW...

Best regards,
Paul S

12-13-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	146
Post ID:	26611
Reply to:	26609

Almost not done...

It is kind of sad day and I think I will take a break for a week or two and will not be playing with my speakers. I begin to integrate the 15-in woofer with Remedius and it was not as simple as appear. I do not think that the location when I have my loudspeakers (very active at 50 hertz) I will be able to do it properly without residing to barberic means. The Dannoy, even with 100 Hertz low pass filter are very active at 50 cycles in my enclosure and with my passive radiator. I think I need to use another passive radiator with lower resonance frequency in order to have lower knee of Dannoy more smoother. In order to kill high bump at 50 cycles I was forced to open Dannoy back for a use it as an open buffel. I have virtually flat beautiful response and wonderful integration with 15-in woofer. Unfortunately it sounded extremely unpleasant. The really do not like nacked sound of Tannoy red. And I really do not like this feeling of the open buffle. I need to reset all of it. My old Dannoy was plugged as is and it was spectacular. This new speaker gives me attitude and I need to sleep with the problem for a while...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-20-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	147
Post ID:	26613
Reply to:	26611

I think I got it.

Ah, I think I have found the secrets that I was looking for. I still do not work with 15-in woofer but still try to make my red driver sound the way how I want and I got some revelation and the result that is very close where I would like to be. The key was in high pass crossover for red's woofer. It is very delicate balance between to let it do what it can and at the same time protected from abuse. Currently I am at 2nd order Bessel at 65 cycles. I feel to cut it at 100 cycles is to kill 80% what the red driver can do. I'm kind of very surprised that my admiration of red sound went to the bottom of the woofer. I also feel it is would be very difficult job for my vitavox too much what red does at the bottom. I think the time most likely will end the top around 70 cycles. My red cabinet reduced to approximately two cubic feet. I still have much more bass that I need, not acoustical pleasure but tonal but it is beginning to get workable.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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