GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site

10-28-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	26
Post ID:	26449
Reply to:	26429

I had a dream… sucks!

As my dreams were predicted that “a project I am working on now will fail” I am kind of wondering what the project would it be. The Remedies the Beauty is certainly one of the projects that I am involved, and I was wondering where a failure might be coming in this project. Well, I think at this point it would not be premature to say that Remedies project is a failure and the reason for it not some kind of mysterious spell of 15 century monks but my very much unadulterated own stupidity. It is no surprise that albert Einstein had a horse shew abos his door in Princeton.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-28-2021

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	27
Post ID:	26450
Reply to:	26449

Mezuzah

I suppose it's hard waiting to find out. Maybe "more heart", rather than all heart? Part of "intuition", I think, is "working at the edges of perception". Who can resist subjecting oneself to a test once in a while, a sort of systems check? Keep us posted!

Best regards,
Paul S

10-28-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	28
Post ID:	26451
Reply to:	26450

The pipe...

It was not a “heart” but pure stupidity and my underestimation my Chinese builder. I decided to make it back mounted and naturally requested to make some bevel over the driver whole. I did not even care about the size of the baffle and I decided that anything at 1-1 1/5 ins would work. I did not realize that his baffles are 6’ and with 25 degree bevel the drivers are shooting into very much a pipe. It is not about “it” but about ugly harmonic colorations that this type of waveguide has. I feel like an id and it is completely my fault.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-28-2021

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	29
Post ID:	26452
Reply to:	26451

Slow and Steady; Onward

An old carpenter once advised young me that a good carpenter is able to integrate his mistakes.

Note that your photo popped up after I first responded, rendering that stuff non-sequiter, so this and the following are an edit in response to the photo:

Wow, that sure is a thick baffle! I think you wouldn't want that tunnel behind the driver, either. It will take some skill to fix that.

Paul S

10-28-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	31
Post ID:	26454
Reply to:	26453

Everything is made in China nowadays

Jarek, why not China? I did not particularly look in China, but I was looking for a person who whom I can talk and who will be listening me and do what I asked. He did very good job during the initial planning phase and I do like what he did in the end. The subject of the baffle we did not even discus and the Dannoy were 1” baffle, nothing special and they sounded spectacular. In the end I recognized that I was the one who did not listen him! Now I found his notes where he said about 6” baffle but I discarded it as I thought it was a mistake as no one would do 6” baffle. Good for him, this is how the arrogant customers need to be tough!

This is just a top section of the speaker and I might order another version with straight whole for external mount. I might consider plugging the holes with inserts and them to drill new wholes. It would be a complex piece to make without turning machine… I would like my Remedies to be nice and do not have a face lift….

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-28-2021

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	32
Post ID:	26456
Reply to:	26454

The distance

That's why asking - I value high Chinese craftsmanship (not to be confused with a cheap mass production!) but the distance makes it difficult for corrections. The plugin for external mount should not be a great deal but as Paul said, the driver will see a 6" long tunnel behind it. I'm watching closely your journey as, with your permission, I'd be interested in making a pair for my personal use. I have too small space for big horns and DSET's but sth like Remedies + SIT amp might be the way out.

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

10-28-2021

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	33
Post ID:	26457
Reply to:	26456

Swap the baffle???

Don't know construction details, of course, but I'm sitting way out on the West Coast thinking, "I'd swap the baffle". Easy for me to say, I realize...

Paul S

10-28-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	34
Post ID:	26458
Reply to:	26457

Some recovery, most spiritual.

Ok, I partially got my sound. The top section of Remedies is serially wasted and need to be redon. Still, was looking in my attic and I found something that is make it so much better, at least in phycological domain. I found a pair of Reds from 60 that have 12” mount (Tannoy sold it to DIY community) and I just top mounted them across the baffle’s pipe. The sound got not as barbaric as it used to be. I still is not acceptable as the passive radiators is mounted 7” behind the Tannoy driver and there are a lot of other problems. most likely coming from the fact that Tannoy sits in pipe and not mounted properly. It was pleasure however to hear some sort of servility from this project. Now I verify the problem objectively and I wonder what I will be having in my dream now.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-30-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	35
Post ID:	26464
Reply to:	26456

I do not know...

N-set wrote:
.. big horns and DSET's but sth like Remedies + SIT amp might be ...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-30-2021

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	36
Post ID:	26467
Reply to:	26464

Addictive quality

Thank you very much Romy for your attempt on comparing the two. Although it is obviously just a sketch, I enjoyed it and actually my curiosity about Dannoy/SIT has even grown. Might be you've hit one of a "singular point" of audio. You mentioned that the music/performances you did not like sound more acceptable/less annoying than with the Macondo/Milq. And how about the music that you like? How do you perceive it through Dannoy/SIT?
As for the Remedies' boxes - perhaps you can find someone to shave off 5" or so from the front baffle, from the outside? This should be +/- easily doable to the existing boxes.
Cheers,

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

10-31-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	37
Post ID:	26468
Reply to:	26467

I do not understand it now.

N-set wrote:
And how about the music that you like? How do you perceive it through Dannoy/SIT?

It hard to say. I really do not understand the Dannoy/SIT sound at this point. I have even no idea if that sound come from Dannoy, from SIT or from combination of it. everything is vey very and in way very strange. I use both of my B2 for a while and I know them very well. I did not feel that they are great amps. I do not like this bass when they drove my woofer tower and I was experimented with depleted tube active crossover to enrich sound with second harmonics. To a degree I was successfully but it was far from what I would like it to be, and I had my wet dream about 150 SET. Now with Dannoy, with no even midbass to support at the bottom I am getting very surprising structure in bass the I never hear from B2. It is not even remotely feeling like any SS bass and it somehow masks it range very interestingly. I hear a very full and very reach sound and I put my RTA in play, and I have -6db and 55Hz. But by ears is enough bass very good quality of bass. I am puzzled with it and with many other things in this combo. I do not want to create a cult out it, I know the audio people are prone to make cult out of anything but there are some things in Dannoy/SIT that I do not understand now but I am not wiling to discard it because I do not understand it.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-01-2021

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	38
Post ID:	26469
Reply to:	26468

The mere fact

... that such modest-looking, off the shelf setup moved Mac/Milq out of the listening room is impressive enough. If that were my boxes, before commissioning new pair, I'd try shaving off the front baffles. Any wood workshop should do that, no need for CNC machines, just a plane with a high enough gap to accept the box.

What is the midbass reinforcement? AK151?

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

11-01-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	39
Post ID:	26470
Reply to:	26469

A better looking Dannoys.... that all that I want.

I do not know how it goes for now. The Remedies is 4 boxes, 2 midbass sections and 2 to sections with Tannoys. I got juts one top section. It is clearly that tops section needs to be redone. I presume that midbass sections as well. I still have no conclusion if I want to have in baffle mount or outside. The Dannoy was free from problem with 1” baffle outside mount. The Remedies has a huge baffle and I need to cut it for both time of mount as the “pipe” even behind the driver look like impacts sound. You can see in the picture that the baffle is solid and goes for the entire depth of the front facet. I am going to get the rest of the boxes, assemble the speakers to play with it then formulate the requirement for the new version. Most likely it will be front mount with 45-degree bevel toward to back panel, starting from 1”. I do not have experience with all of it and halve no idea how it all of it impacts anything. The Dannoys were perfect but ugly, all that I wans to do is to have better looking Dannoys

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-01-2021

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	40
Post ID:	26471
Reply to:	26470

Interior Volume?

Well, the tunnels will certainly affect the sound, whether they're inside or out, whether or not it winds up mattering to you, and it looks from the photo like the Vitavox will be in the same situation as the Tannoy. You did not say if you aimed to maintain the same internal volume for the Tannoy as your original box, or if you calculated VAS for the woofer, but this is another case where a change in internal volume will affect the sound (whether or not it matters to you). It looks like the front baffles were bolted to the cases. If so, I would remove the bolts and then remove the thick baffes, and I'd go from there. If the baffles are also glued to the cases, it would be relatively easy to make up a jig to cut through one side at a time along the glue line.

Paul S

11-02-2021

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	41
Post ID:	26474
Reply to:	26470

Beauties

Ok, now I see that this is a whole concept and shaving off the front baffles is not an option. I hope your builder can redo the cabinets quickly. Instead of 1" 45deg bevel you might consider 1" radius to minimize/disperse HF reflections and diffraction on the edges. Is the intended midbass driver AK151?
Edit: What are the outer dimensions of the current boxes?

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

11-04-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	42
Post ID:	26475
Reply to:	26474

I think I need a psychiatrist…

I know that a Is beauty in the eyes of the beholder, but I personally absolutely love how Remedies looks like. I was trying to get a perfect size in order them do not feels like technical monstrosity and do not feel like a flimsy boomboxes at the same time. It has slightly and deeply intentional center radiation point, 46”, I need it right there for my listening room. They look brown in the picture but in real world they are quite black with very mild brownish infliction. Just beauties and I want to lick them and swallow them. I have them home for a while and I really do not feel to do anything with them sonically as I know it will be not good. Just no motivation….

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-04-2021

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	43
Post ID:	26476
Reply to:	26475

From behind?

Romy, can the rear panel be unmounted/cut somehow to access the baffles from behind? If so, give your carpenter a task to mill out the baffles from behind down to 1" or whatever you find acceptable. It looks difficult given the depth of the boxes but skilled carpenters have their tricks.

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

11-05-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	44
Post ID:	26477
Reply to:	26476

Enough is enough

Yes, I was contemplating this idea and the back panel is removable, but I will not do it. There is no need to do it as it must be just another speaker made. The next version will be with external mount and revered bevel back to center of the speaker. I am a bit suspicions to do internal mount as even 1” baffle I feel will be a problem. The Dannoy was external mount, who know it might be one of the Dannoy secrets. It would be funny if it was it and the Reds were designed for internal mount. It might be worth to investigate with a prototype but honestly, I have no time or motivation. The default Dannoy were so good that if I get the same result from Remedies then it will be absolutely enough for me.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-05-2021

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	45
Post ID:	26478
Reply to:	26477

6-Sided boxes?

If to make i" thick baffles while still retaining the sculpted front edges, the cases would (basically) have six vertical sides, inside and out. Of course, the size and the shape of the baffle(s) also affect the sound. Is this something you've taken into consideration, or are are you just rolling the dice?

Paul S

11-05-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	46
Post ID:	26479
Reply to:	26477

Holy cow!!!!

Ended, holy cow!!!! I just install the Vitavox 15” into the Remedies bass, internally, in the way how it was originally designed, and it sound just spectacular. It is possible that at LF the rim at the baffle is not as auditable. It is possible that I am a bit impartial as I love the sound of this driver everywhere. If I install it in a toilet, I am sure I will love. Sill, it is nice to know that the bass enclosure is not a total waste. BTW, the driver might be very fine to be mounted externally as it is wide enough to cover the cat off. Good that I do not need to pay for shipping of bass bin anymore.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-05-2021

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	47
Post ID:	26480
Reply to:	26479

The Only Thing That Matters

Sure, if you don't hear too many problems over time, or if you are easily able to deal with any problems with the drivers remaining in the original cabinets, then you have what you wanted. Same for "time alignment" by measuring voice coil distance to baffle face, for that matter. If it "works" when you listen to Music, then it works.

Paul S

11-05-2021

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	48
Post ID:	26481
Reply to:	26479

Good!

The sound wavelength must be much longer than the 6". How low the 15" goes? BTW, has anyone compared old AK151 vs the new production? The old ones seem impossible to find (new production being in turn horribly expensive).

Edit: I've managed to locate 10" Golds 8 Ohms (LSU/HF/3LZ/8). Anyone compared Gold vs Red?

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

11-05-2021

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anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #:	49
Post ID:	26482
Reply to:	26481

Unsure

I have two pair of the old 15" Vitavox: two drivers coned as K15/40 and two as another less common variant with a softer suspension and lower Fs but I cannot remember right now the name. Shortly, a brand new pair of K15/40 shall arrive along with a recone kit for one of the original pair so if warranted I can make three pair of K15/40. Will be interesting to listen for any differences between new and old.

Likewise, a new pair of S2 will also arrive shortly and I can make comparisons with the three pair of older drivers with different diaphragms.

11-05-2021

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anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #:	50
Post ID:	26483
Reply to:	26482

Getting to the point

No time, can only post in snippets...

The second hand S2 and 15" Vitavox that I have were all compromised by age and use and have been thoroughly cleaned and remagnetised and where appropriate Sent to the UK to be reconditioned by Vitavox.

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»	New	Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..	A link to another thread....	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	120	680332	07-29-2007
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