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  »  New  Remedies the Beauty..  The SET Problem, only with speakers......  Playback Listening  Forum     302  293657  10-13-2021
08-04-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1
Post ID: 26240
Reply to: 26240
Dannoy 2021 Loudspeakers


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-04-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 2
Post ID: 26241
Reply to: 26240
Here it is.
The bottom woofer array is not connected at all.

Dannoy_2021.jpg


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-05-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 3
Post ID: 26242
Reply to: 26240
Front to Back
Yes, the way you came up with the Dunnoy is FUNNY! But I will tell you now that I was thinking of the 10" Tannoy for the reverb channels, not because it "does everything well", but because it is acceptable in terms of scale, and it has tone, and it maintains coherence better than most vintage drivers that otherwise sound that good. Anyway, I have similar drivers in mind when I get to implementing the reverb.


Best regards,
Paul S
08-18-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 4
Post ID: 26280
Reply to: 26241
I have good feeling about this project.
My idea of Dunnoy loudspeaker took an interesting turn. I would like to capitalize upon what I discovered above an to vandalize my woofer towers, factoring Tanoy Red in it. So, it will ended up with Reds working in a half of wolfed towers with one of the woofer as passive radiator and another part of the speakers (acoustically divided and sealed) with two wolfer drivers loaded actually and lowpass at 40Hz. I have a lot of fun of doing kit as I do not follow any loudspeaker wisdom, whatever it might be but do it explicitly by intuition, listening and reacting. The first objective is to have cold-running speaker for SS amplifier that I might use as a pilot, to turn and keep my main system running is just too much logistics. It is not that I have objectives to downsize, absolutely not, just curious if I can get “there” with small form factor. The second objective is to use somehow woofer tours that I love so much and keep justified in my listening room. The third objective is to take advantage of 10” Tanoy Red driver that certainly have its own beauty. And the last objective is that I do have a lot of pleasure while I'm doing it.

It is very important to note, at least to me, that my Dunnoy experiment has strictly self-entertaining purpose, general interest in Audio and is not driven abandoning of my devotion to multi-channel horns and DSETs. Whatever I will be ending up will be very much secondary result. It just happened then I have some good tools lying around and I enjoy a process of audio creation. I will continue post the progress. I know exactly where I would like to end up and it will not be a “perfect” loudspeaker. If it goes successfully then it would be “fuller” range implementation off the best Tannoy Red can do this an attempt to suppress some Reds problems.  I have very good feeling about this project.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 5
Post ID: 26297
Reply to: 26280
Another "here we go"
Did you wonder why I am looking like Mephistophilisin this video?
 


DunnoyTower.jpg


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 6
Post ID: 26298
Reply to: 26297
The response
Dunnoy2021_RTA.png

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 7
Post ID: 26299
Reply to: 26298
Thoughts about above.
The above in Red color the response of Tannoy 10” Red LSU/SF3LZ driver with default crossover mounted in in Dunlavy TSW-IV Tower in a position of third driver and loaded to 4th 25W/8565-00 driver as passive radiator.
 
In blue, the response of the same Tannoy driver but complimented with another pair of the same paralleled 25W/8565-00 woofers from the same enclosure but acoustically isolated from Tannoy and actively driven by the same amp with no filter. This is right channels, which is pretty much at the middle of my room and has no wall gain. It looks like it is out of phase if you ask me…but the reversed phase not better. There were zero efforts spent there, this is just a first blind connection. Still, the entire assembly sounds remarkably pleasurable.
 
I was trying to drive Tannoy with Milg and woofers with my SS amp, effectively bi-amping with   second order crossover at 35Hz. It was VERY nice. Then I took it further and put the LF section on transition slop, crossing it at 15Hz and gain 10dB, it gave me more or less pure 20Hz but the drivers were strenuous for the room of my size and I felt some LF compression.
 
Now, where to take it? Not quite sure yet. I do not want to drive it with Milq and I would like it to be cold-running, all time on segment of my installation. To bi-amping is a good idea but a paralleled woofers have near enough sensitivity to work along with Tannoys. If not, I can throw another 2 woofers to help that would give a nice array of 4 woofers per channel to support the Tannoy.
 
I do not mind driving it with one amp, but I would need to have a good SS amp. I do not want to use older Lamm M1, too big, too hot, and too bulky. Something like reported Lavardin would do if they have one input and no volume control, but I would probably need 100W…  
A very interesting configuration. I am still getting familiar with it sound as the Tannoy DC drivers are different animals. One way or another so far the Dunnoy is in  a way ridiculous but a very successful project.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-13-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 8
Post ID: 26310
Reply to: 26299
It is more then sex change operation!
I took very seriously my recent dive into Dunnoy. There is something in there that gives me even more then multichannel milliamp horn installation. Nope it is not better sound it is different sound and different relationship with sound. It is something that I hardly even seen in audio. It is like the person who you love whispering in your ears, not even whispering but juts breathing. It is very new and very interesting for me to investigate and to have control over.
 
So, I have initiated a project to build a completed my own box loudspeaker, incorporating into it all that I learned from what Dunnoy. It will be not a “new design” but a new approach, fully based on audio rendering of my feelings. I think it will be VERY interesting loudspeaker and I assure that there is no ego in there at all. To demonstrate to myself how serious I am I took away Macondo and Milq from my listening room.  I am prototyping and testing now different configurations models, amplification and ideas and I have good prediction of extremely stimulating result.
 
As anything I does it will not end up with a commercial product and will be fully disclosed at my site. Having a tradition to call my audio projects by García Márquez’s characters I would like to name my new loudspeaker “Remedios the Beauty” or RB for short. It kind of coincide with my own initials (Roman Bessnow), OK, ego is playing in it a little. One way or other I am very excited about my new Remedios.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-14-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Newtohorn
Posts 13
Joined on 01-03-2018
Post #: 9
Post ID: 26311
Reply to: 26310
Teaser?
Watched youtube feeds and found my way back here.  Interested to hear more about your priorities in the new build.  Given the project is inspired by Dunlavy, I presume the build will be time aligned with first order crossover?  If so, are you intending to overcome the main requirement of such design - the need for high power ss amplification?  Signed up...
09-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 10
Post ID: 26325
Reply to: 26311
About audio.... content


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-26-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 11
Post ID: 26326
Reply to: 26325
Video not available
Not here and not on YouTube

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
09-26-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 12
Post ID: 26327
Reply to: 26325
Enough Content?
How we listen determines what we hear, for sure, and there is also the "Potential" "embedded" in what we are listening to. All the changes to my system over several decades now have been about shifting the Sound and the presentation in order to get "more" from Music. What is "more"? It might be I can listen to Music that did not previously "reach" me (that I did not "get"), or I can hear "new things" in Music I've listened to many times; or maybe listening becomes "easier". Anyway, based on long experience, I figure I'll know it when I hear it, even if it takes a while to tune it to taste, or tuning becomes it's own approach for a while. Of course, I've had my share of dead ends, including elaborate, expensive dead ends. But Hope Springs Eternal.

Good luck with the Dunnoys!


Paul S
09-26-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 13
Post ID: 26328
Reply to: 26325
What changes with "age"?
Reading Romys ventures for years has given me a (probably primitive) picture of how his "world" works. Regardless, the changes in his "style" of posting have shifted as much as the "content". 

I do not think that the Dunlavy/Dunnoys would have had the same context and therefore result 10/20/30 years ago. The fascination with recreation seems to be the message of old. The new mantra seems to be the contentment with recreation. These are certainly very different goals.

What I can imagine is that the musical message has increased in importance and the gearhead stuff like geometry and color only have to be "good enough" to not distract. In any case, this path is interesting in its own way. I am sure that the future will show us what married life with kids does to our priorities and if "knowing what is possible" can be ignored for any length of time.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-02-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 14
Post ID: 26357
Reply to: 26325
I am wondering....
One of the main advantages of Macondo configuration was the fact of multi amplification. As with any other systems which have a dedicated amplifier of the same type to each individual driver Macondo can run over dynamic range with amazing ease this very low intermodulations. It is very outitable with any box speaker, included what I have in the house. I wonder how can a mitigate it. The Remedies will have effectively three active drivers and I have the decadent two channels amplification for it. So what I am wondering now is how to map three drivers to channels. Ideally of course would be to discover this time that Red compression driver would sound nice with SET, then I would devoted my two solid state of the fires too base drivers and it would be no debate. I have ever very much like how the red twettera sound with my solid state and I am wondering what driver to combine with twetter. In alternative to would be to get another B2 amplifier....

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-02-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 15
Post ID: 26358
Reply to: 26357
Cold Running?
I never heard SS that could match a 45, but I have heard SS that has "less SS sound". Given your stated objectives going in, I "recommend" finding a more polite SS amp for the tweeters. Not much EMF, and I suppose not much power required? A couple of hours online, you're done.

Paul S
10-02-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 16
Post ID: 26359
Reply to: 26358
Objectives? Isn't it not better sound?
 Paul S wrote:
I never heard SS that could match a 45, but I have heard SS that has "less SS sound". Given your stated objectives going in, I "recommend" finding a more polite SS amp for the tweeters. Not much EMF, and I suppose not much power required? A couple of hours online, you're done.
I am not sure that you or I have “objectives”. I just very naturally gravitate to more satisfying sound. Regarding the SS, I never hear any good sounding SS amps and particularly in bass. I own the B2 for a while and I feel that they are OK but nothing truly special. What they did in context of Dannoy very surprised sand very impressed me. I have no idea why and I have no foundations to rationalize. It is juts happened to be superbly good and I have a fear that if I come with own crossover or another enclosure then I might lose that “special sound”. I do not have luxury to investigate rezoning for the good result I got, I am this point juts wiling to ride the wave and do not ask myself “why”.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-02-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 17
Post ID: 26360
Reply to: 26359
If Tubes are not a Bother...
Did you just answer your own question? Use the B2, then. Plenty of nice, small tube amps for tweeters, if that's what you want. I could list tube and SS amps, but I hate doing that "in public", not to mention, as you just pointed out, you only need to know it "works" in your system, and you already have that. The only tubes in my system now are 2nd stage in phono, 1 tube per channel. I have MOVs, and VRs on them. They are old, and I dread replacing them.

Best regards,
Paul S
10-03-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 18
Post ID: 26361
Reply to: 26359
The last comment about Macondo vs Dannoy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-16-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 19
Post ID: 26403
Reply to: 26361
It?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-22-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 20
Post ID: 27013
Reply to: 26403
Here is VERY loaded post.
I know it's gonna be one of the thousands posts it's my website but to make this post it took obscene amount of thinking. Not everybody will understand as it is very counterintuitive but those few who follow my Dannoy saga and Particular is those few who vent for this and experimented with Dannoy themselves might find it interesting. 
 
As I was trying to figure out what was so attractive in the noise sound and one eye never was able to repeat it I understood that I understood the Dannoy configuration as it was a normal loudspeaker but in reality it is something different. remember, when I and you were trying to implement low frequency filter to Red’s woofer? we were getting better bass as with sub low resonant frequency of passive radiator the Reds woofer exceeded its own legitimate excursion. do you remember that I it looks like anybody else were complaining as we improve bass we are losing magic in a high frequency? I think I found an explanation. In my current view the extreme high frequency attractiveness or erratic driver derives not from some mystical quality of the driver, under normal circumstances it does not sound properly. the “magic” begins to work only if the Red woofer become to be overdriven as much as possible by low frequency passive radiator. why the hell high frequency compression driver inside of Red would be so much carrying about Red woofer? The answer might be Doppler distortions. In reality the cone of Red woofer might be acting as continuation of Twitter horn and as low frequency begin to stress the woofer then the Tweeter begin experience variable horn profile exit. it is very possible that this act as something that I was very attractive, I do not think this effect is well known.
 
 
I am immediately putting this hypothesis to test in fact I am building new Twitter now to take advantage of hypothesis above. this would perfectly explain why I never was able to replicate the “magic” as anything I did was to minimize excursion of red woofer. So, in ideal situation the woofer should act as a Doppler exciter but do not particular radiate on sound. If that presumption is correct, then it's opening an opportunity to design a completely new topology of a tweeter with precise matching of diameter of the woofer to the length of the waive Twitter will care. I would like to name this topology the Dannoy Tweeter. 
 
Now, let take it further… if we know HOW the LF Doppler + I variable horn termination impact the HF sound then we can modulate the Red woofer moving by … applying the active signal to the… passive radiator…. If we can make the passive radiator… do not sound on it own? Can we in real time to modulate infra sound on hypothetical Red’s woofer in order to inject custom harmonics into anything over 5Khz? Rowuk claims that he cannot bring complexity to E6 like with F3 but how about if we cire with his tramper inside a tuba and his trumpet length fluctuates along with the tuba tone?
 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-23-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 21
Post ID: 27015
Reply to: 27013
A trumpet played into a tuba bell can sound like a mandoline - been there, done that
If I play my trumpet into a tuba bell and the tuba player just moves his fingers without playing, the trumpet tone is modified and sound like a mandoline. In addition, the upper register becomes almost unplayable due to the modulation affecting the trumpet internal standing wave effect on the lips.

As far as the Scanspeak modulating the red, I would start at the Schumann frequency and its harmonics. Be careful, infrasonics can cause diarrhoe...

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
11-23-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 22
Post ID: 27016
Reply to: 27015
Oh. No.
Oh god, you took it so literally. When you blew your trumpet inside of the tuba belt then you blow against tuba on flow. You are not sitting inside of the tuber and blow in face with tuba sound. Also, I was not talking about air modulation but about the air flow of tuba was able to modify the trumpet length. You just cannot take it literally but rather figuratively  and metaphorically.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-24-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 23
Post ID: 27021
Reply to: 27016
No problem
Romy, crazy musicians try all sorts of things out. In my case, I can even quote some firsthand experience. My antics with the trumpet and tuba simply add to my experiences.

I have the huge luxury of having played Bruckner on vintage low "F trumpets", rotary Bb trumpets and modern Bb and C trumpets. Even although the pitch is the same, the color between instruments and register changes dramatically. Articulation "speaks" differently even although the pitch is the same. This is what makes the historically informed playing especially different.

I certainly understand how someone would like to have intelligent response for playback. In my world, I think that an interface to the room through variable dispersion could very much improve the relation of articulation to tone in various playback ranges. I just wonder whether it must be intelligent, or if we could find a generic setting that gets "most things" right.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
11-24-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 24
Post ID: 27022
Reply to: 27021
Set and Forget!
Robin, this is The Dream, is it not? How Nice, and If Only. I remember when Romy was deciding on a phono cartridge, and I was getting very strongly that he did not really want a "hard tracing" cartridge, because he really did not want to have to re-set VTA for every record! While I am willing to re-set VTA, it is only because I developed a relatively simple and repeatable system for so doing. And that, for me, is The Key and The Ballgame. I have to be able to get back to the same place for the same LP without busting a gut. Certainly, speakers should be close to set-and-forget. I still remember watching Mr. Walker play aimlessly with his TT the entire time it was operating. F*ck That!



Best regards,
Paul S
11-24-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 25
Post ID: 27023
Reply to: 27021
It is all bout me.
 rowuk wrote:
I certainly understand how someone would like to have intelligent response for playback. In my world, I think that an interface to the room through variable dispersion could very much improve the relation of articulation to tone in various playback ranges. I just wonder whether it must be intelligent, or if we could find a generic setting that gets "most things" right.

Well, despite how I sound to a common observer, I am very much not in crusade to “get most things right” or to make music to sound “perfect”. When I am talking about “intelligent response for playback” I simply imply not linear response from system but rather some kind of “adoptable response” that do not subordinate itself to non-musical static irrelevant rules, like mechanical suspension of diaphragms, impact that come with room reverberation or intermodulation distortions of a given speaker topology. I am a software engineer and in my design decisions I frequently try to mimic human perception by means of brainless computers, not necessary because I get paid but because it fascinates me to play God in terms of creativity. The very same in playback. I go a VERY serious move in my feeling how audio “might” sound last September. Instead of the stressing the topology that accidently gave me that opportunity I am trying to understand what that topology gave to me that I did not have before. I brough the Horn and the Milq back a few days agon but a am not turning them back and I do not wan to go to Macondo again. I would like to revise the Macondo with something new that I learned last September and all the I am trying to do is to figure out what it was. I am not planning to imitate Dannoy now but rather I would like to understand what in Dannoy impacted me so much and if possible to bring it to Macondo.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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