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02-07-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 2041
Reply to: 2040
Fiddler on a roof, a TT in a bed.

 guy sergeant wrote:

Is this the kind of set up you're contemplating?
I do not know what it is and what he was trying to accomplish. On the picture the TT’s looks like Micro 2000 or 3000 and another TT that I do not know. Micro 2000/3000 were not good TTs form my point of view as they did not have reasonable balance of masses between platter and the supporting base. The 2000/3000 had too heavy player for the base’s mass. The regular RX-1500 (not FV or FVG), being much cheaper sounded way better a it was all together way more properly balanced then the micro 2000/3000 models. I remember I was running a lightest RX-1500 with coupled motor that was (juts for fun) sitting atop of ….a large pillow in my bed. The TT did not manifest any auditable problems that might be expected from this location.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-07-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 178
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 27
Post ID: 2042
Reply to: 2037
Re: Driving a TT with ... shoelace.
Well,
If driving medium has no or neglible importance that's even better!
If you tried tape, you've got the pulley already so why mess up with trying to get required rubber belt lenghts?
" seems to be in fashion" meant that some people prefer it to the rubber belt and that idea seems to be new and cheap enough to try for everybody.

I'm a little suprised that Seiko Micro doesn't have this irrational Japanese sound.
02-08-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 2043
Reply to: 2041
Re: Fiddler on a roof, a TT in a bed.
Hi Romy,

I think it is a 3000.  The other platter/base seems (from the ebay advert) to be home-made with a 16" diameter.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5860808877&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

I presume he was attempting to do something similar to you although I can see how, if the base of the 3000 is too light, it might cause problems.

Your first law of upgrading usually seems to be "identify what dissatisfies you in your playback before you try to change things" or something like that. Very sensible advice. What is it about the sound of your existing TT that prompts you to want to change it?  Do you perceive some lack of stability, constancy, perhaps some tonal aberration or is it just its performance compared with your FM that has brought on this urge for improvement?

best regards,

Guy
02-08-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 2044
Reply to: 2043
How it “should" be….

 guy sergeant wrote:
Your first law of upgrading usually seems to be "identify what dissatisfies you in your playback before you try to change things" or something like that. Very sensible advice. What is it about the sound of your existing TT that prompts you to want to change it?  Do you perceive some lack of stability, constancy, perhaps some tonal aberration or is it just its performance compared with your FM that has brought on this urge for improvement?

I do not have any “urge for improvement” at all and I have said at the very beginning of the thread what the objective for building a double deck player are. It all about the simple functional number of the tonearms I would like to mount and the sonic differences between the decks (different suspension types). Furthermore, I’m rearming now my TT with different phonostages environments (with 4-6 inputs) and it the 5 arms double-deck (soft-hard) Micro is very nicely fit together into my vision how it “should be”….

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-08-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 2045
Reply to: 2044
apologies
Sorry, I have a better understanding of the purpose of this exercise now.
Are you making 2 new platters or is one to be the existing Micro Platter?

Given that your RX 8000 appears to have a platter made of phosphor bronze (gunmetal) what is your second platter going to be made of? (I understood from some research that Micro felt the phosphor bronze platters better lent themselves to use with SS electronics)

How is the phono stage being revised? Are you planning for different eq settings for various vintage recordings? 
Will all of your cartridges still be loaded via the ET2?

best regards,

Guy
02-08-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 2046
Reply to: 2045
The revision is in a progress

 guy sergeant wrote:
Sorry, I have a better understanding of the purpose of this exercise now.
Are you making 2 new platters or is one to be the existing Micro Platter?

Nope, juts adding RX-5000 platter and base to the existing RX-8000

 guy sergeant wrote:
Given that your RX 8000 appears to have a platter made of phosphor bronze (gunmetal) what is your second platter going to be made of? (I understood from some research that Micro felt the phosphor bronze platters better lent themselves to use with SS electronics)


The very same “yellow” platter. The “tone” of the platter is irrelevant. The “tone” becomes relevant if you play vacuum hold-down (MKII) and a record sits atop of the “bare” platter, or atop of a platter decoupled with a very thin fabric. I do not like vacuum hold-down and in my case the platters employ quite thick TT mats that make the platter’s tone irrelevant.

 guy sergeant wrote:
How is the phono stage being revised? Are you planning for different eq settings for various vintage recordings?  Will all of your cartridges still be loaded via the ET2?


I would not comment on it at this point in depth. Very basically I would be an offensive design where a “correct” phonostage and ET2 will be working against all 4-6 tonearms, without any switching of cable, adjustment of loading and so on….  Cruelty the revision is in a progress and if I turn out to be successful then I will post information about it

Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-08-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 2047
Reply to: 2046
Thick mat without sonic signature?
Which one? Where can I find it? how much is it? What's it made of?

I've tried a few mats and I always found in all of them some added "colorature". I've not tried any of the "audiophile approved" ones since I didn't expect any of them to work, and they're not inexpensive either, but maybe it's time to change my mind.

Rgrds

A
02-08-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 2048
Reply to: 2047
Re: What is the platter?
Antonio,

Which variety of rotating gong do you need a mat for?
What turntable is it?

Guy
02-08-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 2049
Reply to: 2047
Re: Thick mat without sonic signature?

 Antonio J. wrote:
Which one? Where can I find it? how much is it? What's it made of?

I've tried a few mats and I always found in all of them some added "colorature". I've not tried any of the "audiophile approved" ones since I didn't expect any of them to work, and they're not inexpensive either, but maybe it's time to change my mind.

I do not know, Antonio. I tried very few "audiophile approved" mats and they were too much “Fremery” to me: means showy but with not substance. I have a few mats (or perhaps now is just one left) that picked quite long time ago from some TTs of 70s and that work perfectly fine. I have no idea what they are and where I can get them. They are most likely rubber-made but have a very high density. They feel mode feel like metal or plastic then rubber. They are a approximately few mm high, rather on a thick side, weight a couple of pounds and as far as I concern do Sonically whatever is necessary. I do not know what quality a TT’s mat should have by being sandwiched with my platter it “sounds” very nice, at least I can’t identify anything wrong - platter related. I have also, and sometime used a parabolic mat (along with my parabolic add-in platter) but it requires using a heavy center-poll weight (clamp). I do not like the center-poll clamp and therefore I tend do not run the parabolic top.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-08-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 2050
Reply to: 2049
Fremer didn't like it
Guy, my TT is a Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace, which replaced a Project RPM-9. With the later I learned about the sonic signature of acrylic platters and tried to get rid of it with some mats, but then I got the own mat's signature, which was worse. I'm still learning about the NA, but I feel in the guts that this has been a lateral move, not really a firm step towards where I'd like to go. It's very difficult to know how a TT will do things without living with it for quite a time, and even more difficult, as Romy said somewhere else, to know before purchasing it whether a piece of gear will lead us to where we are willing to go.

Romy, thanks for your response. At this point I'm not capable to discern how much of what I want to get from my vinyls and I don't, is due to the TT, not using a mat or some other things that should be changed when I find the adequate parts. I'll try to find some mat with those characteristics of yours, at least I'll learn something in spite I know it's not "the solution" for all the issues I'd like to fix.

Rgrds,

A
02-11-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 36
Post ID: 2055
Reply to: 2050
Micro Seiki double deck: some early results.

To Antonio,

it is not necessary to “to find some mat with those characteristics of yours”. The characteristics of mat would be applicable only I context of the TT you use (platter, suspension and so on). With my Micro 8000 that has very dead sounding platter to begin with, I really do not need mat to do anything\ and the very hard rubber TT mars do very well for me. Older Technics turntables employed wonderfully-hard mat, some Micro Seiki mat were nicely hard (actually Micro did some stuff for Technics and at the time they share some product lines). Nakamichi did some very cool, hard and heavy mats. I mean the hard rubber it was the better it would be…. but only in “my case”. If you have a light platter with own sound (most of them do) then the composition and density of the TT mat might be different. Once again - it all should be view in context of entire TT setting (type of patter, existence of clap, shape of the mat, TT topology and many other things)  and it should not be juts blindly imitates. Still, I would stay with rubber mats of different density and would not go for any carbon, plastic, subroutine or any other “invention type” of mats.

To the rest folks.

Ok, I did some initial experiments with my Micro Seiki double deck projects.

I spent entire day to move the motors, platters, arms around. It was not always possible to get out the arrangement exactly what I wanted as other then sound considerations dictated what to do (access to the given arm, layout of the cables form the tonearms, the location of the phonostages, the length of arm boards, and many other things). In the end I find that the locations of motor do not affect sound as much as tension of the belt between the platters. I was not able to use two-belts approach as I have no means to maintain the height of the belt between the platters (I would need an idle roll to do so). So, I stack to a single belt of 87” so far.

The final layout that I ended up with largely die to my recent thoughts about my phonostages – I am planning to use juts one phonostages (I will most likely writhe about I future). Therefore, the accessibility to the 6 inputs of my single phonstages and the phonostages position become quite imperative factor.



Above the image now I ended up so far. The phonostages sits between



Above the image now I ended up so far. The phonostages sits between the motor and the TT’s platters. The TT platters together sit atop of a Vibraplane. It kind of all-together comfy to use and I did not detect any problem with sound so far. The middle platter, that presumably should be in heavy “slipping mode”, works juts fine with none measurable speed deviation. For a time being I use tahe magnetic tape but will be ordering a thin and light rubber belts if I settle with this configuration for good.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-11-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 37
Post ID: 2056
Reply to: 2055
Very Impressive
Dear Romy, thanks for your comment. I actually don't want the mat to do "something" for me sonically, but to teach me how far I'm I of my ideal. Knowing your goals and taking for granted that the 8000's platter must be rather dead sonically, I assume those mats must be quite dead also. The purpose to use some sonically dead mat is to learn if the platter I'm using now is as dead as I'm supposing (it's quite high mass at 20Kg and the surface is a carbon composite layer weighing about 5Kg). I don't use any clamp (it doesn't work as good as clamps worked on the old TT) and the plynth is not suspended. The "a priori" approach is that a dead mat would eliminate or at least "damp" some sound from the platter, but as you point, maybe the platter has some kind of sound that helps in the results I'd like to get, so in my context, it would be better not to use any mat. I'll have to check it.

I hope you keep us posted on your findings. Which is the heavier platter? Did you find any interesting difference in placing one TT closer to the motor than the other? Are you planning to try the 3012 on the other TT? I'll be glad knowing what combination of tonearm and stereo cartridge in that setup works for the highest dynamic contrast, I don't mean to sound louder at fffff but having more intermediate steps beween ppp and ffff. That's something that lately is obsessing me. I find my vinyl quite acceptable tonally (for my taste and exigence which probably are at a different level than yours) but I'd like it to be more "colorful" dynamically. I hope I've explained myself.

Rgrds.
02-11-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 2057
Reply to: 2056
Colorful" dynamic.. and analog?

 Antonio J. wrote:
Dear Romy, thanks for your comment. I actually don't want the mat to do "something" for me sonically, but to teach me how far I'm I of my ideal. Knowing your goals and taking for granted that the 8000's platter must be rather dead sonically, I assume those mats must be quite dead also. The purpose to use some sonically dead mat is to learn if the platter I'm using now is as dead as I'm supposing (it's quite high mass at 20Kg and the surface is a carbon composite layer weighing about 5Kg). I don't use any clamp (it doesn't work as good as clamps worked on the old TT) and the plynth is not suspended. The "a priori" approach is that a dead mat would eliminate or at least "damp" some sound from the platter, but as you point, maybe the platter has some kind of sound that helps in the results I'd like to get, so in my context, it would be better not to use any mat. I'll have to check it.

I do not think that anyone would be able to “teach” and I do not thin that there is nothing to teach about the mats. A good “sounding” platter does not require any “actions” from mat and the hard rubber mats do exactly this. In fact if a platter is god then you can play a record right atop of it and it should have near the same sound as with a hard rubber mat. The problems begins what the platters sound “strange” then we begin coming up with all imaginable stupid means to get “correct sound” out of the platter buttering the platter with mats or with other bogus sound-shaping means. For instance I was very surprised recently that Micro RX-5000 has in fact quite colored platter sound. I had two RX-5000s and I did not remember any negative feelings about it. However, the one RX-5000 that I fished recently has very ringy platter. After servicing the RX-5000 and setting it up I had to figure out how to make it sound neutral. I ended up with layering a thin layer of sorbotan atop of the platter and then cover it with thick hard rubber mat. It works so far fine but I am not sure that it will be the final solution.

 Antonio J. wrote:
I hope you keep us posted on your findings. Which is the heavier platter? Did you find any interesting difference in placing one TT closer to the motor than the other? Are you planning to try the 3012 on the other TT? I'll be glad knowing what combination of tonearm and stereo cartridge in that setup works for the highest dynamic contrast, I don't mean to sound louder at fffff but having more intermediate steps beween ppp and ffff. That's something that lately is obsessing me. I find my vinyl quite acceptable tonally (for my taste and exigence which probably are at a different level than yours) but I'd like it to be more "colorful" dynamically. I hope I've explained myself.

The heaviest platter is on the right, having more contact surface with the belt. So far everything is more or less OK, besides the DC motor have more work to do, suck more current form PS and head the transformer more it would like to be heated. More "colorful" dynamically? Why do you feel that it has anything to do with combination of tonearm and a cartridge?

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-11-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 2058
Reply to: 2057
Good question... I wish I knew
 Romy the Cat wrote:

I do not think that anyone would be able to “teach” and I do not thin that there is nothing to teach about the mats. A good “sounding” platter does not require any “actions” from mat and the hard rubber mats do exactly this. In fact if a platter is god then you can play a record right atop of it and it should have near the same sound as with a hard rubber mat. The problems begins what the platters sound “strange” then we begin coming up with all imaginable stupid means to get “correct sound” out of the platter buttering the platter with mats or with other bogus sound-shaping means. For instance I was very surprised recently that Micro RX-5000 has in fact quite colored platter sound. I had two RX-5000s and I did not remember any negative feelings about it. However, the one RX-5000 that I fished recently has very ringy platter. After servicing the RX-5000 and setting it up I had to figure out how to make it sound neutral. I ended up with layering a thin layer of sorbotan atop of the platter and then cover it with thick hard rubber mat. It works so far fine but I am not sure that it will be the final solution.



Well, I don't know if there's something wrong with the platter and I'd like to know it. All I know is that lower bass has kind of "detachement" from the mid-upper bass, that I don't hear from the tuner nor the DAC. In my ignorance, suggested from my previous experience with other turntables using other materials in the platter, and the influence they had in performance, I want to try something that could "tell me" if the issue is platter related or I have to look elsewhere. Maybe my approach is wrong, but I don't have a better idea to check it. I want to keep things stable and go testing things step by step to know what has an influence in that "sound feature" without altering other things that I find acceptable. I don't believe a mat can fix something the platter is doing wrong, but if a dead mat has an influence, I could conclude that it's the platter having some effect, which I'd like to know, maybe to replace it or maybe to learn how to make it work in my favor. Perhaps a dead mat won't change anything, due to it's neutral nature, and nothing would change despite being a platter's fault. As you can see I'm positively clueless.


 Romy the Cat wrote:

The heaviest platter is on the right, having more contact surface with the belt. So far everything is more or less OK, besides the DC motor have more work to do, suck more current form PS and head the transformer more it would like to be heated. More "colorful" dynamically? Why do you feel that it has anything to do with combination of tonearm and a cartridge?

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


Once again, it comes from previous experience, but I must admit that my evaluation methods have been changing since then. Swapping tonearms using the same cart, I've noticed that in some cases overall performance was affected and moved into the right direction I assume some music should "be made". Swapping carts with a given tonearm had some similar effect. Analyzing what into the sound could explain that possitive effect, I concluded that it wasn't something related to frequency balance, clarity, detail or "some of those things", but to an improvement of the way the dynamics were reproduced, having a "wilder" (I can't find a better word to describe my feeling) and more emotive presentation. It's not that I want to find a most-dynamic cart-tonearm combo, but to know which is in your opinion, of your current carts and tonearms, the pair that dynamically is performing better, and if any, what are the trade offs you find. I suppose that there's no perfect combination and possibly you end up liking some combination for some precise record, and other one for a different disc, but in spite of that, it could happen that you found some pairing specially good from the dynamics point of view. It's possible too that my former observations were wrong and the "righter" music I perceived had nothing to do with dynamics. To me it's very difficult to correlate music and the way I interact with it and the "sonics", although I can detect a wrong sonic performance. At least I get acceptable music, which is way more than I was able two years ago ;-)

Rgrds.
02-11-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 40
Post ID: 2059
Reply to: 2058
Do not touch this dial!

 Antonio J. wrote:
Well, I don't know if there's something wrong with the platter and I'd like to know it. All I know is that lower bass has kind of "detachement" from the mid-upper bass, that I don't hear from the tuner nor the DAC.

If it doe not happen on all recording but only on foe ten flipping of ability polarity switch would help. If it happens with all recordings then time-align the LF channel, reduces it at minus 2-3dB and forces yourself to listen at bass-reduced level for a direction of at least 2-3 weeks. What it boils down that some of the bad LF sections (I do not know what you use BTW) raise acoustic pressure of LF in a room faster then the rise tonal pressure… Your problems defiantly might be due to many other reasons but I would start from that I have mentioned and analog gave the most demanding bass among all other sources.

 Antonio J. wrote:
It's not that I want to find a most-dynamic cart-tonearm combo, but to know which is in your opinion, of your current carts and tonearms, the pair that dynamically is performing better, and if any, what are the trade offs you find. I suppose that there's no perfect combination and possibly you end up liking some combination for some precise record, and other one for a different disc, but in spite of that, it could happen that you found some pairing specially good from the dynamics point of view. It's possible too that my former observations were wrong and the "righter" music I perceived had nothing to do with dynamics. To me it's very difficult to correlate music and the way I interact with it and the "sonics", although I can detect a wrong sonic performance. At least I get acceptable music, which is way more than I was able two years ago ;-)

Hm… yes and no. I do not match cartridges with tonearms to a large degree. Peaty much if I could (and probably I should) I would have all my 6 tonearms presented with six 3012 of higher affective mass. My arms more have functional separation then matching. Anyhow, my “references tonearm” with witch I play good and cleaned stereo records of general music is 3012R with 18G in headshell paired with Shelter 901

Rgs,
Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-12-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 2060
Reply to: 2059
LF and speakers
Hi Romy,

I believe you're right and it's due to the amount of LF the vinyl outputs, which may be more than the Bidat or the tuner do. It doesn't happen with all the discs, just some of them, which happen to be old recordings that probably have more LF content than newer ones. I don't have the facility to invert phase from vinyl (the Bidat does, not my phono preamp) unless I swap the wiring at the cartridge output.
Surely it's my speakers that can't deal with so much LF signal and do exactly as you describe, they seem to pressurize the room with low frequency before the tone is audible, and gets coherent with the mid-upper bass, which is not really outstanding either. My speakers are two ways and front bass reflex, so go figure. My room can't handle LF well, I have serious modes at 40 and about 75 Hz so my approach regarding bass response isn't as serious as I liked :-(

Rgrds.
08-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 2775
Reply to: 2055
Maria Callas and ...Micro Seiki

Do not believe me, I do not believe myself! I would like to tell you honestly that if this thing would be said by other person I would accept it as a pure BS because I have no reasoning to believe that it might be true…. but it is what actually what is going on.

I did not listen my TT for a few weeks, the FM and my digital recoding of the broadcasts really put TT to the back burner. Plus my resent “design mode”….

Anyhow, looking at my very intriguing success with the “Fundamental Channel” and my trying to “harmonize” sound via “Fundamental Channel” at the correct amplitude I deseeded to go for something “complex”. It is raining in Boston and I am in very good listing mood … therefore went for my shelves with selected “best recordings ever”

I pulled the 1982 pressing of “Ses Recitals 1954 – 1969” by Maria Callas. This collection is nothing short of stunning: 11 absolutely beautiful LP very-very nicely pressed by EMI-Pathe Marconi and 200pages book, covering the best years of the greatest singer. Yes, we all have dozens and hundreds Callas recording but could be too much Callas? Although I know the specific performances when Callas did better then in this Recitals but it is 22 sides of Callas in his prime!!! Did you ever see any better single collection of opera recording in such a phenomenal performing and recording quality?

Callas voice has everything you can imagine in Music and everything you can imagine in Sound and I decided to spend a day with her. Suddenly, as soon the runner record was played I realized that I lost bass in my analog. Interestingly, for few weeks that I did not listen it nothing, absolutely nothing was changed in analog and I was puzzled.

Then I detected that for those 3-4weeks the reel-to-real tape that run across both platters of my Micro Seiki got week and almost hangs. It still spins the patters with default stable speed (I did not hear any speed abnormalities and usually on soprano recordings it is might be heard intentionally) but it kind of juts “touch them”. I figures that it was kind of too loose and I added a little bit mote tension. Are you ready for it? I go my bass back!!!!!! I loose it back and force and the bass result clearly deviated with the tension of the tape.

Well, I would understand if it were a heavy belt and a light platter but… How, how come that a tandem of the zillion tone platters got affected by the light and no partially strongly applied real-to- real tape? I have no rational explanation!

Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Ronnie
Stockholm
Posts 81
Joined on 06-30-2005

Post #: 43
Post ID: 2776
Reply to: 2775
Tension

Time to fall for the idler wheel propaganda? Smile
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1075644493&read&3&4&&st0

08-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 2777
Reply to: 2776
Re: maintaining speed
never mind idler drive & all that rumble, get a proper turntable



Seriously though, thats interesting if 60Kg of rotating mass isn't enough.

What would be?
08-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 2778
Reply to: 2777
It has nothing to do with maintaining speed
I think you are loosing me. It has nothing to do with maintaining speed. In fact I never experience any speed problems form any of Micros, even the lightest one (and I am very sensitive to any speed deviations, tested). I was telling about even more bogus observation: the affect of the tape tension to LF!!! Frankly speaking, although I did witness it I still do not believe in it. It juts could not be true.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-26-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 2779
Reply to: 2778
Low frequency rumbling drainage?
Just speculating, but a tense wire can transmit vibration way better than a loose one. Perhaps to have an accurate bass response you need to keep low frequency oscillations away from the platter, and the tight tape helps to drain them to the rest of the system.

rgrds, A
08-26-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tokyo john
Narashino, Japan
Posts 36
Joined on 01-31-2006

Post #: 47
Post ID: 2780
Reply to: 2779
two theories for what it is worth

Despite the sheer mass and moment of the Micro's platter(s), the tape must either be detracting from (when loose) or helping (when taught) the bass.

Speculating on the former, perhaps the tape when slack interacts (slipping and sliding) with the platter to create some kind of electro-magnetic charge? Speculating on the latter, I wonder if the tightened tape manages to dampen some kind of resonance inherent in the platter?

08-26-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 48
Post ID: 2781
Reply to: 2780
I don't think electromagnetic charge
can have a strong enough field to interact with the cartridge, but electrostatic charge, if created, might have an influence in the way the needle contacts the vinyl.

Romy, did you notice if the disc had more static than usual?

Rgrds.
08-26-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 49
Post ID: 2782
Reply to: 2780
Everything points that I need a longer belt.

Yes, the theoretical static from the slipping ferromagnetic tape it was always that did not like in the tape idea but I always thought that the effect, if it ever take place, would be absolutely negligible, partially considering that I use conductive players the are grounded. I do not know if it was it, I do not think that I ever will and obviously if it was the static then I was absolutely beyond of something that I might detect.

I still would like to return to the rubber belt as I use to but unfortunately I have no idea what to get longer belt (I think it was 65” or 85” … I do not remember already). I was thinking to get the obtainable 35” belts and to glue them but I doubt that I would be able to do it well enough. There are people who can do long rubberish plastic belts, and I have them, but I do not like them – they are too heavy and too stiff.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-26-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 50
Post ID: 2783
Reply to: 2782
You could cut the rubber belt from the inner tube of a tyre
All you need is knowing the exact length required to ask for the matching diameter. Probably a bike tube will do. You can cut it as a ribbon or in a string shape. This way you'd avoid any discontinuity for glueing several pieces. From one tube you could cut many spare belts.

Another handy solution that comes to mind, is buying the kind of rubber tube which is used for aspiration (vacuum) at hospitals and labs. It's sold by length. You can cleanly match the extremes with rubber glue or even using a pair of staples. There are many diameters available depending on the application.

rgrds, A
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