GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - My PP2000 does NOT like a balanced input

10-25-2015

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drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #:	1426
Post ID:	22151
Reply to:	22150

ProPower is the "Other" PurePower?

So, the "Contact Us" link for ProPower leads to:

Inquiries regarding the above Limited Warranty may be sent to the following address: ProPower, 4F, No.248, Sec.3, Pei-Shan Rd, Shen-Keng Dist. New Taipei City, Taiwan.

So, is this the Chinese company that PurePower originally contracted to manufacture their devices, that subsequently decided to market the devices on their own, bypassing the design copyrights? Or is there something else to this story I missed?

In any regard, I'd hate to have to ship a defective unit back to Taiwan, but I'm not sure if that would be worse than shipping it to Canada.

Adrian

10-25-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1427
Post ID:	22152
Reply to:	22151

The original PurePower designer or the old myth about unicorn?

The story about Zaki Ye who "has devoted 30 solid years to the power electronics industry, all the while never forgetting his passion for music" is a nice ploy that worth as much as it takes to type it. I think it is the Chinese manufacturer is trying to recover his looses and use up some accumulated parts stock.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-25-2015

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	1428
Post ID:	22153
Reply to:	22152

Truth Be Told

It APPEARS as though they have a few distributors on board, and they have put some more money into face plates, etc. I did not yet look up the referenced Chinese (Taiwanese) company, but some of those Chinese OEM plants are HUGE operations. I mean, who - at one time or another - hasn't thrown up their hands in frustration when they discover that all available "options" are so much alike that they are obviously sourced from the same OEM, from coffee makers to boots, to table radios, on and on, ad nauseum? At any rate, they are not hitting the ground running, rather it looks to be the same old slipshod type of venture, with the Canadians still barking at their heels, and pricing that offers no incentives for what will so obviously be a like (or even bigger) gamble.

And no need to doubt that the Chinese company has some experience in UPS, or that its Founder and Chief Bottle Washer "loves music", as long as we all understand that this means squat with respect to their products. Sometimes a little truth makes for the best lie.

Paul S

10-25-2015

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	1429
Post ID:	22154
Reply to:	22151

This is not new

drdna wrote:
So, the "Contact Us" link for ProPower leads to:
Inquiries regarding the above Limited Warranty may be sent to the following address: ProPower, 4F, No.248, Sec.3, Pei-Shan Rd, Shen-Keng Dist. New Taipei City, Taiwan.
So, is this the Chinese company that PurePower originally contracted to manufacture their devices, that subsequently decided to market the devices on their own, bypassing the design copyrights? Or is there something else to this story I missed?
In any regard, I'd hate to have to ship a defective unit back to Taiwan, but I'm not sure if that would be worse than shipping it to Canada.
Adrian

When I ran across these folks some years ago, they had a standing offer to support and maintain the older pre move units. As far as I can tell, this hasn't changed; it's just that a few people here and there overseas run across it for the first time when looking for someone to support their units. Obviously with a more "normal" manufacturer people wouldn't be this desperate to find someone - anyone - to help.

10-26-2015

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PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009

Post #:	1430
Post ID:	22156
Reply to:	22149

The Chinese dealer list is not legitimate

Hi Dr Most of the dealers listed on the Chinese Ppowerus page are not actually selling the counterfeit units and several have asked to be removed from the list without response. None of the US listings are real. In fact, because the Chinese company was prohibited by the Florida courts from advertising or selling the products, the US Customs and Border Protection Service has notified all ports that such goods entering the US are subject to seizure.

10-26-2015

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PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009

Post #:	1431
Post ID:	22157
Reply to:	22148

The Original PurePower designer is Audiophile APS Inc, in Canada in 2004

Dear Don C
A few facts you are missing, and a libelous statement that need correcting.

The PurePower product was designed and manufactured in Canada starting in 2003 by Audiophile APS Inc., years before any production was outsourced to Taiwan. In fact, the company that began selling the counterfeit version was the second Taiwan electronics manufacturer making parts for PurePower and originally supplied only electronic components.

PurePower Partners LLC was formed in 2006 in New Jersey to market the product and is, and always has been, the owner of the PurePower® registered trademark and certain copyright circuit designs worldwide. There is no PurePower Canada, just PurePower Partners LLC.

PurePower Partners LLC was awarded $650,000 in damages by a Florida court against the Taiwan counterfeiters. If you are looking for crooks I suggest you read the judgement of the US courts. They leave no room for confusion about who was guilty of theft of intellectual property. We are still waiting for even a single penny of the court awarded damages, and for the offending web sites to be shut down as ordered by the US judge.

10-26-2015

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drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #:	1432
Post ID:	22160
Reply to:	22152

ProPower = counterfeit PurePower

As you pointed out, the Chinese website looks to be a link to the Chinese company contracted originally by PurePower to build their units, who then tried to sell the units on their own, ignoring the patent.

I'm not sure how long since the website was updated since the "distributors" websites do not show any information suggesting they still sell these units.

I'd be very wary of sending any money to China for such a suspect product.

I am happy to report, however, that the unit that I got from PurePower (PP3000 Plus) has been working perfectly. In fact, it is much better, in my opinion than the original versions. No more annoying buzz when the unit is plugged in; this unit is absolutely silent in all modes of operation! Over time, the the sound seems to have continued to improve, and most important is the day-to-day consistency in electricity the unit provides. It was well worth the wait, and I couldn't be happier!

Adrian

10-26-2015

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TonyB
Toronto
Posts 22
Joined on 04-14-2005

Post #:	1434
Post ID:	22162
Reply to:	22161

PurePower Sale at PartsConnexion

PartsConnexion has has PurePower 2000 and 3000 units on sale 35% and 32% off:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/fin_prod_purepower2000.html?utm_source=getresponse&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=1express&utm_content=pcX%E2%80%99s+BIGGEST+Promotion+Ever+-+25%25+Off+ALL+Capacitors+-+til+Oct.+31st+%21+35%25+Off+PUREPOWER%2B+2000+AC+Regenerator%3B+40%25+Off+AUDEZE+LCD-3+Headphones%3B+Up+to+70%25+off+MERIDIAN+551+Integrated+%26+502+Preamp%3B+85%25+Off+DUELUND+CAST-PIO+Copper+Caps
http://www.partsconnexion.com/fin_prod_purepower3000.html?utm_source=getresponse&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=1express&utm_content=pcX%E2%80%99s+BIGGEST+Promotion+Ever+-+25%25+Off+ALL+Capacitors+-+til+Oct.+31st+%21+35%25+Off+PUREPOWER%2B+2000+AC+Regenerator%3B+40%25+Off+AUDEZE+LCD-3+Headphones%3B+Up+to+70%25+off+MERIDIAN+551+Integrated+%26+502+Preamp%3B+85%25+Off+DUELUND+CAST-PIO+Copper+Caps

10-27-2015

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kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #:	1435
Post ID:	22164
Reply to:	22157

Response time!

It is interesting to see Richard here appearing and answering general inquiries so fast whereas he hasn't even replied my last email over a month nor send my battery pack of the unit for the last 8 months! I have half of your product and still nothing happening.

I have contacted Ontario bbb and their MCS but to no avail. I have been directed to Attorney General of New Jersey. So yes, they are not Canadian company but an an American one. I have some documents sent to me by Mcs as Purepower told them some problems happened but they are sending my battery unit on 28th of September 2015 (one month ago). Of course, nothing happened! At least I have that document as well, along lots of other broken promises on emails to send to the Attorney General of New Jersey. I will continue to pursue this as they are not completing my order. I will let people here know about it.

I just wish they were a straight company, doing honest business as they have a good product in their hands. I will let people here know if they ever complete my order which I paid for 8 months ago in full...

10-27-2015

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	1436
Post ID:	22166
Reply to:	22164

Be advised

kodomo wrote:
It is interesting to see Richard here appearing and answering general inquiries so fast whereas he hasn't even replied my last email over a month nor send my battery pack of the unit for the last 8 months! I have half of your product and still nothing happening.

Well their response priorities are well known. If you are in Europe this doesn't help your current problem but there is a UK manufacturer of AV double conversion UPS devices that some members here have reported using with good results. The firm is PowerInspired and that is their URL with .com.

10-31-2015

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david82
Posts 4
Joined on 07-21-2015

Post #:	1437
Post ID:	22173
Reply to:	22164

Criminals

kodomo wrote:
It is interesting to see Richard here appearing and answering general inquiries so fast whereas he hasn't even replied my last email over a month nor send my battery pack of the unit for the last 8 months! I have half of your product and still nothing happening.

I have contacted Ontario bbb and their MCS but to no avail. I have been directed to Attorney General of New Jersey. So yes, they are not Canadian company but an an American one. I have some documents sent to me by Mcs as Purepower told them some problems happened but they are sending my battery unit on 28th of September 2015 (one month ago). Of course, nothing happened! At least I have that document as well, along lots of other broken promises on emails to send to the Attorney General of New Jersey. I will continue to pursue this as they are not completing my order. I will let people here know about it.

I just wish they were a straight company, doing honest business as they have a good product in their hands. I will let people here know if they ever complete my order which I paid for 8 months ago in full...

"Interesting" would be one term, "despicable" would be another. I'm not sure why he would still be allowed to post here, at this point it has basically been confirmed that they're criminals.

10-31-2015

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drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #:	1438
Post ID:	22174
Reply to:	22173

Just another audiophile company

Ha! Criminals is going a bit too far, unless you want to call all the audiophile companies criminals. I am not saying that is not the case, but the behavior of PurePower is not different from many other audiophile companies or many other similar businesses. Any company that has a very small capital size, making very specialized products in small volume for high prices but low margin - in essence any custom-made products - it is the same. Nevertheless, I have never seen this be out of malice. And I eventually received my product with enough patience and prodding.

Adrian

10-31-2015

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	1439
Post ID:	22175
Reply to:	22174

The art of dilatory

I'm glad that Adrian is waxing philosophic but reviewing his prior posts he was plenty angry as he should have been. It wasn't his private complaints that got a response; it was the repeated public excoriations for years of a variety of people on a very prominent audio site that eventually produced a replacement. Yes they are a small company juggling suppliers and customers and employees. However, they are a definite outlier even in audiophile land in their clumsy, aggressively dilatory and obfuscatory manner. They are part of the problem in other words.

Quite frankly, these products are of greater importance to people living in countries with irregular utility power. You don't have to be an audiophile to notice the benefits in that situation. For me they are more useful in evening out the sonics typical of late night listening to the rest of the day. There are quite a few audio components that provide a more noticeable impact on the sound, even cables.

10-31-2015

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david82
Posts 4
Joined on 07-21-2015

Post #:	1440
Post ID:	22176
Reply to:	22174

Let's be clear here

drdna wrote:
Ha! Criminals is going a bit too far, unless you want to call all the audiophile companies criminals. I am not saying that is not the case, but the behavior of PurePower is not different from many other audiophile companies or many other similar businesses. Any company that has a very small capital size, making very specialized products in small volume for high prices but low margin - in essence any custom-made products - it is the same. Nevertheless, I have never seen this be out of malice. And I eventually received my product with enough patience and prodding.

Adrian

I'm quite confused by this... Any company that "has a very small capital size, making very specialized products in small volume for high prices but low margin - in essence any custom-made products" takes people's money / equipment and repeatedly lies about what they are doing with it / doesn't communicate with its customers? Huh?
What's appalling about PurePower's behavior is precisely that this is not what any company in their position does. I have dealt with many. Honest businesspeople can have delays, run into cash flow trouble, etc., while at the same time being honest with their customers and being responsive. How a person or company deals with tough times is what separates honest / good ones from dishonest / bad ones.
I have dealt with a lot of companies similar to PurePower over many years in many different industries. None has behaved remotely as poorly as PurePower.
There's not much to argue about here. They've had my unit for a year and a half. Maybe they give it back some day, who knows. If I steal $2000 from you is that ok, if there's some possibility I give it back at some point in the future? Not remotely ok.

10-31-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1441
Post ID:	22177
Reply to:	22175

I do not belive

steverino wrote:
Quite frankly, these products are of greater importance to people living in countries with irregular utility power. You don't have to be an audiophile to notice the benefits in that situation. For me they are more useful in evening out the sonics typical of late night listening to the rest of the day. There are quite a few audio components that provide a more noticeable impact on the sound, even cables.

Acutely I do not agree with these statements. I would not go for comparing contribution of bad electricity with contribution of bad cables, even those I feel that electricity 100s time more effective. The mains point that I would like to make is that statement "countries with irregular utility power" is kind of meaningless for the aspect that we are looking. I have no data of sonic perspective of electricity quality in different countries but I am quite certain that there is no country out that that have good for sound electricity. I might believe that one region of ordinary better and another worse but I would hardly believe that somewhere out there is a country that runs generator in super moderate 80% of load, has no digital power supplies, a perfect grid and no reactive load and no noise returning consumers.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-01-2015

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	1442
Post ID:	22179
Reply to:	22177

Audiophiles vs not

Romy the Cat wrote:
steverino wrote:
Quite frankly, these products are of greater importance to people living in countries with irregular utility power. You don't have to be an audiophile to notice the benefits in that situation. For me they are more useful in evening out the sonics typical of late night listening to the rest of the day. There are quite a few audio components that provide a more noticeable impact on the sound, even cables.
Acutely I do not agree with these statements. I would not go for comparing contribution of bad electricity with contribution of bad cables, even those I feel that electricity 100s time more effective. The mains point that I would like to make is that statement "countries with irregular utility power" is kind of meaningless for the aspect that we are looking. I have no data of sonic perspective of electricity quality in different countries but I am quite certain that there is no country out that that have good for sound electricity. I might believe that one region of ordinary better and another worse but I would hardly believe that somewhere out there is a country that runs generator in super moderate 80% of load, has no digital power supplies, a perfect grid and no reactive load and no noise returning consumers.

Well I meant that in cases where the AC power wasn't simply larded with grunge but was irregular with outages you didn't need to be an audiophile to appreciate the product. Of course audiophiles find all kinds of things essential as connoisseurs customarily do. I guess we do have some disagreement as audiophiles on the relative Degree of significance for this component compared with alternatives. It may well be due to differences in audio systems and physical location/local AC. I am Not saying it has no benefit.

11-01-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1443
Post ID:	22180
Reply to:	22179

Disagree. PP is not UPS unit.

steverino wrote:
Well I meant that in cases where the AC power wasn't simply larded with grunge but was irregular with outages you didn't need to be an audiophile to appreciate the product. Of course audiophiles find all kinds of things essential as connoisseurs customarily do. I guess we do have some disagreement as audiophiles on the relative Degree of significance for this component compared with alternatives. It may well be due to differences in audio systems and physical location/local AC. I am Not saying it has no benefit.

Well, I truly consider PP as a product that meant to resolve the problem with power interruptions. For sure it cable to do it and might be market in this way but I think that PP is out of depth in this direction. Ended if somebody lives in a part of a country where irregular electric supply means not irregularity of quality but actual outages then they for sure might appreciate the fact the PP would deal with it. however, the PP would be hardly a solution. The uninterruptible power supplies are not to meant to deal with power outages but meant to maintain power for a very short period of time until a standby generators kick in. So, if I need PP juts for that very utilitarian purpose - to care uninterruptible power for a few minutes until my natural gas generator start then I would hardly need the PP but I would use 4-5 times less expensive solution. There is an army of commercial UPS devises that use in datacenters, they are spectacular and super reliable. My servers are running protested by a few 1.5kW APC units, can't say better words about them. Sonically however the commercial UPS devises are not good, with external power supply or not. So, in my view the benefits and the main reason of PP is not serving as uninterruptible devise but rather to serve as "good sounding device". One might ask a question differently: does PP sound good because it "fix" (let say partially fix) the incoming power or because it just itself sound good and overrides many of electricity problem. I do not have an answer to this question.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-01-2015

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Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #:	1444
Post ID:	22181
Reply to:	22180

PP forever

I sympathize with those who were caught up in the financial problems that pure power had when one of their salesmen went rogue and attempted to steal their product, which lead to a long court fight which they won. Obviously this didn't help the situation as the Chinese company is still advertising the stolen product. While I live within 5 miles of the Seabrook atomic power plant, I've fought for 35 years with electric gremlins which sometimes made my system unlistenable and only on very few late-night listening sessions gave me superb sound. Everything was tried, from super expensive power cords, a separate service into the media room, multiple isolation transformers, large capacitor banks, generators, and ups units, to name a few; only the pure power units have solved the majority of the ac gremlins. Every time I listen now, I thank the heavens that a friend introduced me to Romy, who put me on to this company. Kudos to Romy for the introduction.
I've had three of their original 1500 units in the past and now a 2000+, 3000+ and a 1500 power my system. Each has functioned perfectly, without problem for at least 6-7 years and continue to give me the best sound I've been able to achieve. AC in this country sucks and is getting worse day by day with noise from multiple sources. Persons who think that the pure power units are no better than different interconnects at improving the sound either have the best ac available, or a system that isn't good enough to hear the grunge that affects great systems, or some other reason. I believe in their product so much that I gave up a reviewing job because the editor refused to allow me to further review their units as he disliked the letters he received from two or three audiophiles who had grievances with pure power. That's how much I believe in this product and would recommend that other readers at this sight run to www.partsconnexion.com and purchase one or two of these units while they are on sale. I would also suggest to Richard that if he has any outstanding problems with members of this board that he immediately write here that he will make them whole and that those individuals report on this at their convenience. The air must be cleaned as this is too good a product to be lost to the audiophile community.

11-01-2015

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decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #:	1445
Post ID:	22182
Reply to:	22181

Complicity

The reality is that PP's consumers encourage its business practices. It is rather like a woman complaining about an abusive boyfriend, only to return to him again and again. When those outraged by being lied to, by being kept waiting for years, are instantly pacified on receipt of a unit, PP knows it can just keep on pissing in its customers' faces, for they will just lap it all up.
What is so bizarre about this masochism, is that few of those so willingly tortured have bothered to evaluate other examples of the same double conversion technology. Standard UPS units are not applicable here, for they are not usually double conversion. PP may be worthy of the fetishization it receives here, but no one has ever tested the question properly. And since there is no innovation in technology that PP can point to, a test cannot be dismissed a priori: many other units will do exactly the same thing, and may well also sound exactly the same.

11-01-2015

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	1447
Post ID:	22184
Reply to:	22183

Stress test

TonyB,

Romy has commented on the perceived differences between the 2000 and 3000 as well as the older units and the Plus units earlier in the thread.

I am thinking that the power utilization level of a system may be a significant factor in perceived benefit of the units (apart from proximity to nuclear power plants). I use the 1050s and I have tried them on all four of my systems including a headphone system. I was slightly surprised that the most audible benefit was not on the headphone system but instead on the most AC power intensive system (albeit it still only draws 35% of the 1050 capacity). People who use the 3000 seem more enthusiastic about the product (in my admittedly limited experience) but it may be just that it benefits higher power systems more than lower power ones.

11-01-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1448
Post ID:	22185
Reply to:	22183

Some comments about PP power rating.

I think people generally do not understand what PP power rating is. Regarding a total power VA that a given unit can produces there is another and probably the most valuable aspect: how much power of the total PP power makes sense to use. In my experiments I concluded that the best sonic results I got from PP3000 when I load it with 40%-60%. I did not make those experiments with PP3000+ . Also, it would be worth to note that I use class A power amps with input choke filtration. So, based upon what I have seen If I consider a PP then I would get the unit that make my enter playback to run at max 50% load. So, a 300W unit would be good for 1500W playback. It is not that that 3000W unit would not work with 2500W load but I got less intersting sound. A warning however. I Used 1600W of my playback load and 1000W of resistive complimentary load. So, with reactive load the result might be different...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-01-2015

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TonyB
Toronto
Posts 22
Joined on 04-14-2005

Post #:	1449
Post ID:	22186
Reply to:	22185

PP+ Loading

Thank you both.

My loading is pretty small since the 2A3 SET amps take only about 250VA total.
Add to it tubed phono and DAC/transport and it is still not much.

I may be getting bass units, each with its own plate amp. These can be
a few hundred Watts each. So the power could go up.

Romy, did you run something like a 1000W light in addition to 1600W
audio load on the PP+ 3000?

11-02-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1450
Post ID:	22187
Reply to:	22186

More experiments is needed.

TonyB wrote:
Romy, did you run something like a 1000W light in addition to 1600W audio load on the PP+ 3000?

I did it as experiment, to hear how the PP would sound fully loaded. If you have 250W and 3000W unit them you might load let say 700-800W (an iron in half power) to hear how would it sound. It would be very interesting to try to use some kind reactive ballast load and try to dial in the reactive component to get the best sound. I did not experiment with it but I think if one has a lot of power to waste then it might be a very worthwhile direction. What would be very interesting to learn is when the electricity is absolute crap and PP does what it does but still can’t make it as it should be then would different loading pattern make any difference in the way how PP is fighting the bad electricity. Again, I did don’t make these experiments.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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