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  »  New  The most promising “best” commercial speaker..  Munich High End 2023...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     192  1744069  12-06-2006
  »  New  The most interesting horn ideas to me so far..  Looking for best horn values...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     4  52135  04-30-2007
  »  New  Problems with horns: tweeters...  Re: HF “wildness”...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     25  214090  07-11-2004
  »  New  Srajan Ebaen and Juicy-Cooking Audio...  Srajan shall stay out of the restroom....  Audio News Forum     8  87444  08-07-2007
  »  New  Vitavox S2 coupling..  Adaptor thickness etc....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  90703  12-20-2008
  »  New  Vitavox S2 driver made in china..  What does it do right?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     36  273794  12-20-2006
  »  New  Vitavox’s S2 Survival Guide...  A typical convention......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     124  1314587  07-16-2004
  »  New  Tweeter for Vitavox S2. High-sensitively ribbons?..  Correction: Townshend Ribbon and sensitivity....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     64  819937  10-19-2006
  »  New  Engaging the David Haigner’s ideas..  The degree of disagreement correction...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     7  85408  08-30-2009
  »  New  Vox Olympian secrets unveiled..  Yes :)...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  33726  05-24-2017
  »  New  How difficult is it to achieve Vox Olympian sound..  LV horn...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     17  54777  01-03-2018
05-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Purite Audio
Posts 20
Joined on 05-07-2012

Post #: 51
Post ID: 19346
Reply to: 19345
New
fiogf49gjkf0d
I heard the new or at least new to me Accapellas in the Marriott, ( the DeLuxe show which is a spin off) I thought they were pretty good, plasma tweeter,cone driver and mid horn and a passive bass which was sealed?I think they used to use active bass in their three ways?Keith.
05-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 52
Post ID: 19347
Reply to: 19345
Acapella from Germany
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Stitch wrote:
A interesting company is Acapella from Germany. When you have the chance for a demo, try to visit.

The Acapella from Germany is an interesting company but they have MF driver challenge that they did not resolve for year and years. They stress use of plasma tweeter which is very good tweeter (with some health limitations) but they never were able to find a good MF driver that will be able to work with plasma tweeter. As many times I heard them I always felt that Acapella’s MF and Acapella’s HF are two different species. Might be they need to look into different MF drive topologies, perhaps the electromagnet to make this MF to be slightly different.  I do not know if it would be good or beneficial but I do know that they need to have more uniformed MF and HF type of sounds. 

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-14-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 53
Post ID: 19356
Reply to: 19330
Vox Olympian in Munich
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, of cause this is according to the stupid Moon’s consciousness…. 

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/munich2013/1.html

I am in particularly thrilled with the author’s of the article mentioning the “64-bit tone colors”. How the hell the tone colors have to do with bit rate I have no idea. It is not to mention that 64-bit rate in playback is an indication of all sort of problem as it would require DSP bit redaction before D/A conversion.

The Cat



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-10-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 54
Post ID: 19475
Reply to: 14730
Vox Olympian Audition
fiogf49gjkf0d
Recently, I was fortunate enough to have an extended listening session with the Living Voice Vox Olympian outside of a show environment. Since said listening session took place upon a boat – moreover, a wooden-bodied boat – under what can only be said to be sub-ideal conditions (despite extensive room treatments, battery power supply etc, an old wooden yacht probably makes as suitable a listening room as does the interior of a giant lute) this renders what I am about to relate (to me) still more extraordinary.

Firstly, a quick context upon my own rather abortive journey through audio; fifteen years ago I sought to purchase a sound system that could accurately reproduce the volume, dynamics and sheer atmosphere that I frequently found at musical venues, be they concert hall, intimate club with soloist, and all points in between. I had been reliably assured, both by acquaintances and multifarious audio publications, that this was not only possible but commonplace, so I went into the enterprise with high expectations and a budget to match. A year, and numberless disappointing auditions later, I came to realize that what I sought was very much more of a Philosopher’s Stone than something to be lightly culled from a cabal of glossy magazine reviews and clueless store owners. Assuming that what I sought was unattainable, I instead settled for a cheap system that offered acceptable “Hi-Fi” sound and an occasional glimpse of the aether (Roksan Xerxes/ Artemiz/Windfield, Sutherland phono, Octave integrated, Marantz CD, Sansui FM and Harbeth speakers) and acclimatized myself to finding such a level of reproduction to be fulfilling. Over the years I have kept abreast of the latest and greatest things in audio, a simple matter since I have many friends who own “high end” systems – frequently changing them, as the pursuit seems to demand - and have on occasion returned to audio showrooms in order to assure myself that I was not merely depressed and/or cynical the first time around; it would seem that I was not. Aside from an exclusively Audio Tekne system with horn speakers that I heard in Japan (and which was absurdly costly, together with possessing certain limitations incommensurate with the price) nothing has fulfilled my original remit in any completely holistic fashion; what one gives in dynamic slam it takes away in unrealistic transient decay, etc etc ad nauseum.

Last week I heard the Vox Olympian. My experiments in audio have led me to believe that, whilst the application of incorrect topologies throughout the audio industry is commonplace, in speaker design it's practically the sine qua non of the thing. However, my experience with the aforementioned Audio Tekne system, together with the horns of Avantgarde, Cessaro, and certain aspects of Classic Audio Reproductions speakers have led me to believe that horns may well be the way forward, but this has always been tempered by the sense that the technology was being inadequately exploited, chiefly by designers with hidebound belief systems and/or mastabatory cults revolving around single driver/archaic cinema speakers from their childhoods. The Vox is the first speaker I have heard that seems to possess all of the intrinsic positives of the horn platform whilst overcoming its endemic negatives. You must forgive me, but despite possessing a doctorate in Letters, the Audiophile’s Argot almost entirely eludes me; it is, in any case, very much easier to apply such argot to what is wrong with a presentation rather than what is right. In the case of the Vox, once a certain amount of tinkering had been addressed (which consisted of rotating the upper two drivers within their threads, perhaps only be a millimeter or two, but the effect of which was so dramatic as to recall to mind the article on DPOLS that appears in this forum; prior to this the presentation had been, to my taste, a little saccharine and wooly, but this was to the liking of the owner) the level of detail, accuracy of transient resolution, dynamic thrust, plausible soundstaging et al, et al were beyond compare. For the first time in my experience, the sheer sensation of orchestral power was resolved in front of me, together with realistic richness of timbre, deep bass that was physically experienced just as in the concert hall; transient decay, even in the case of solo piano, was indistinguishable from the real, and human voices were beyond criticism. I could go on, but fear a lapse into the sort of verbiage that Messrs Valin, Harley et al have recourse to in order to flesh out that which is inherently skeletal when one has already ejaculated one’s best adjectives on a $120 pair of mini-monitors earlier in said issue.

As for myself, whilst I am pleased to have had the real potential of audio revealed to me – and to a certain extent, perhaps, the route by which it may be sought – I cannot justify such an expenditure in my own life. The accompanying system was costly too (the details escape me, but I do know that the components were mostly Kondo with a CEC TLOX transport, DCS dac and assorted exotic cables etc) yet whilst I am not myself in this marketplace, I have since found myself tinkering with the idea of a DIY speaker not dissimilar from the above, perhaps employing AK151, S2 and Ale HF drivers with custom superstructures, something that may be accomplished at a bare fraction of the price. 

de Charlus
06-11-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 55
Post ID: 19480
Reply to: 19475
Very interesting observation.
fiogf49gjkf0d
de Charlus,

thank you very much for the wonderful narrative.  For sure an exposure to a good audio installation and witnessing what it can do to sound able to redefine our believes in functional meaning of a playback. I think we all who mingling with audio in one way or other did have those experiences. Ironically those experiences not necessary come from great installations but if they were great installations then it for sure become a life lasting sensation.  Yep, sometimes it comes with price tag, this sucks but it is what it is….

I never heard the Vox Olympian and I very much look forward to do it. I got an emails from Definitive’s Kevin the he will be accommodate me during my treat to London in the end of this summer and I am very much look forward to hear them. I think it would be very interesting to talk with Kevin as well and to hear his views about audio reproduction.

There is another very interesting concept in your post.  The old school of thoughts when try to answer the question about difference between American audio sound and British audio sound suggests that American audio sound is characterized by flimsy walls that we have. Most American houses are built from feeble wood frames and panels and they have own signature. In architecturally civilized counties they built chicken sheds in the same way how we build houses in USA. However, you were on a boat, the wooden-bodied boat and it was very freaky experience. It very much might be sub-ideal conditions but it might be phenomenal condition. The boat rooms frequently have not flat surface but they curved and this is very interesting. Also, all wall vibrations that the boat room might have would be buffered by the water outside of the boat. This might be very interesting…. 

Rgs, the Cat
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-11-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 56
Post ID: 19484
Reply to: 19480
Vox Olympian
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

Thank you. Now that you mention it, perhaps 85% of the stateroom in question was indeed beneath the waterline, meaning that the potential for unruly resonances was perhaps less than I had at first assumed. The front and rear walls of the room were straight - or as straight as may reasonably be expected on an antique yacht - whilst the side walls possessed a gentle curve, narrowing from front to rear, hence the lute analogy. It was indeed a transcendent experience, one which opened up vistas of possibility to me that I had not imagined existed before - which was exciting, to say the least - and I am looking forward to applying my intellect, an intellect uncolored by commercial concerns and those of tradition, to a speaker design of my own loosely based upon the Vox Olympian premise and those of the few other speakers I've found rewarding. Living Voice seems to be one of those companies, like Harbeth, who are not afraid of cabinet resonance per se, and instead acknowledge and attempt to work with it; this is something that I will be studying as my own speaker progresses, although since I am now drawn to something comprised of spherical horns more or less structured in the fashion of the Cessaro Gamma, cabinet resonance will be but a minimal part of the equation. However, said notion is but a starting point; things could well change profoundly as I progress.

Recently I've found the smaller Living Voice designs to be fighting at above their weight class, so to speak, although very much more in a "Hi-Fi" sense than their flagship; for this and the above reasons, I believe that your visit to Definitive Audio will be illuminating. You're quite right about the difference between English and American homes; the former customarily possess far less potential for uncontrolled resonance, particularly those homes with a little age. I am from London, originally, and grew up in a home built in the early C18th, with thick granite walls; almost as a matter of course, speakers sound more precise and uncolored in such structures, sometimes to a dramatic extent, which perhaps explains why US exports seldom do well in the UK, and vice versa; Definitive Audio is housed in such a structure, and that, together with the quality of the components and Kevin's skill in setup, should all but guarantee an interesting visit.

As I said, I am originally from London and do return on a semi-regular basis; should you require recommendations as to where best to eat, stay, visit etc, let me know and I'll be happy to make some suggestions.

Regards

de Charlus
06-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 57
Post ID: 19485
Reply to: 19484
The audio Herbs?
fiogf49gjkf0d

de Charlus, this “are not afraid of cabinet resonance per se” is complicated subject. I have raised the topic in the “How to USE “Resonating Oops” in loudspeakers” thread:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/LatestPosts.aspx?ThreadID=3833

It looks like it “works” in one instance and does not work in other. The key in this that if one does embrace the “Resonating Oops” then it need to be done in the way that the Resonating does not manifest itself across all music as some kind of un-necessary common denominator. How to do it - I have no idea. With all my experiments I did not go for Resonating but “invented” active Injection, it sounds kind of contra-intuitive but in my case it does work phenomenally and I do not even think to use Macondo today without the injection. I need to mention that to use the “cabinet resonance” has kind of different effect then my Injection Channel. The Injection alter chromatic expressivity but Resonating more act in transients overriding. The mechanical transients that come from cabinet are very different then what we can produce from drivers and I presume that if it done properly it might be very interesting. The reasons why I mention it together is because when chromatic injection is done properly it feels like “mechanical transients”. This would unbelievable to anybody who not experimented with this, I did and I can testify that it works for some reason. When you colorize properly the first violins for instance (not in the ugly way how color Hi-Fi uselessly doe by flooding first violins with colorations but I am taking about deliberate, purposeful and measurable coloring) then the violins start to have that “rosin bite”. It is very interesting: you do not change texture of sound but juts slightly tint the chromatics but as a result you have feeling of the texture change.  The when same goes for upper bas where cello and bassoons operate – you just add slight touch of chromatic softness in second harmonics and in result you has more resonant and way more palatable sound.

I need to say that in my mind one of the primary reason why Vox Olympian might have that “Resonating Oops” (I do not know if they do as I never heard them) is because they use an amassing 15 driver and because the topology of their midbass -upper-bass is the one that allow them to use it. I need to admit that the topology of the Vox Olympian’s upperbass is not the one that I would advocate. However, the midbass driver that Living Voice use in that upperbass is an animal on it’s own. People have no idea what this driver is capable off, I do. The first time I heard it was in 2001. It was the mid of the nigh in Vegas, with the installation that was set up but was not demonstrated at CES. The topology was corner-loaded horn and the setting for midbass -upper-bass was accidently was perfect in that room. It was absolutely stunning midbass -upper-bass, I was literally flabbergasted as I never heard anything similar from audio. The very first things I did was running and buying the pair of AK 151 drivers. As I got them home and connected them just as they laid on the floor I heard the same stunning upper-bass. None of the common hoi-polloi crap even remotely able to shine with those colors. So, the Vox Olympian uses the same driver but they presumably enclosed it in light resonating stricture. It is highly possible that if they use some kind of, Eminence, Celestion TAD, B&C, JBL or Altec then they would have just a resonating boxes. The Vitavox might made it very much different and dispute the fact that Living Voice insisted that the “secret” is in the unique resonating enclosure but the reality is that the “secret” in the 15” driver that they use. I use the Vitavox 15 incher in my midbass but I do not have that “free breathe” with my midbass topology. I have some spare 15 inchers and thought to make a semi-direct resonator with them but the overall Macondo topology does not have a need for that channel. This is incredibly interesting subject to look into however as it is always good to experiment with gourmet cooking if you have “serious” raw ingredients…

Thanks, for your offer to “help” with London. I think I will be fine. My wife is absolutely crazy about London and she was there many times, in fact London is her the most beloved place in world. This means a lot as I hardly know a county what she did not spend time. So, I will be depending upon her guidance. It might be fun to have a listening session and some kind of talk with audio Londoners and to see if we could pickups the “small differences” between UK and US perception. Brits pronounce “Herbs” with “H” while in US “H” is silent and sound more like “Erbs”, I wonder if we could discover something similar in audio?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 58
Post ID: 19487
Reply to: 19485
Herbs and Speakers
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

It is indeed an interesting subject; I am instinctively drawn to it due to the fact that the majority of orchestral instruments - the majority of my listening is orchestral/chamber/classical soloists - produce their own sound through the resonance of a semi-sealed enclosure. Of course, to connect this with the ability, or otherwise, of a speaker system to reproduce music in any remotely synergistic fashion positively reeks of hocus-pocus, which is not to say that it's completely without virtue. It can be no coincidence that the presentations I most dislike come from those speakers whose emphasis is on massive inertia, mass, internal bracing/dampening and sundry other things geared towards "neutrality" (it will be a woeful day indeed when stringed instruments become "neutral") and although the dislike of one thing should not, I hope, be synonymous with the liking of another, I tend to find those speaker systems wherein the pursuit of "neutrality" is not sui generis to be more rewarding than otherwise.

You will find that the Wilson/Magico-type-thing as alluded to above to be uncommon in the UK, perhaps in part because, not being voiced for the type of houses (brick/stone-built with thick walls) common in Europe, such speakers can seem "neutral" to the point of utter emasculation, whilst those such as Living Voice, Harbeth, Spendor and the numerous hornspeakers available tend to strike a finer balance of detail and bloom in such settings. Because of this, the cult of high-power solid state amplification that the former speakers (together with the cult of reviewers) seem to demand is also rarefied. Of course, the xenophobia endemic in any culture to a certain extent popularizes the likes of Naim, Linn, Roksan, Quad, Croft, Canary, Nottingham Analogue and the aforementioned speaker manufacturers to a degree that might seem incomprehensible to an outsider, yet you will find that the radically different building traditions in the US and UK explain all that xenophobia does not - "our" kind of audio presentation makes sense to considerably more people in the UK than merely the anointed cabal who appreciate horns, SETs etc etc in the US.

The AK151 does indeed sound remarkable in the V.O., as does the S2, but having read your own take upon the former driver, it would seem that this is a unit capable of sounding remarkable under any number of different circumstances (such as has been my experience with the S2, hence my decision to base my own DIY project on these drivers). If the answer to the V.O.'s excellence (this is but my opinion, but I would be most surprised if you did not come to share my belief that this speaker stands alone atop the summit of commercially-produced speakers) lies indeed in the controlling, rather than the quashing, of cabinet resonance, then this is a still more remarkable achievement than I had at first thought. The rotation of the driver units cannot but affect the resonances of which we speak, and this would go some way towards elucidating the dramatic effect that rotating said drivers to the extent that they moved laterally only a millimeter or two had, since I do not believe it plausible that my acquaintance, despite having had the system very professionally set up, could possibly have alighted upon the DPOLS so lightly. Most of us not possessing laboratories, the science of cabinet resonance is not a sand-pit into which we DIYers and tweakers can enter in any way save that of trial-and-error, although those who are accustomed to wrestling with the resonances of horns are better-equipped than most to do so. More than ever, the differences between US and UK houses clarify for us the necessity of tailoring audio systems to the homes and rooms in which they are employed, be we consumers of herbs or 'erbs. I do not know what you mean by "injection channel", although I will doubtless find a germane thread upon seeking it; "rosin bite," on the other hand, I am very familiar with, and consider it a "coloration" much more commonly found in the UK school of speaker design than that of the US.

No problem as regards the London thing. There is, however, one thing that the visitor to London should consider essential and of which your wife may be unaware; the Martinis at Duke's hotel on St. James' St in St. James. In my very considerable experience, they are the best in the world. Oh, and to catch the LSO at the Albert Hall, together with the ROC at the Covent Garden Opera House, are experiences that should be sought out if at all possible. Oh, also, on Hampstead Heath there is a C17th Robert Adam mansion with a fine art collection and beautiful grounds; they stage orchestral performances on summer nights, the orchestra playing on an island in the middle of a small lake, the audience pic-nic-ing on the slope opposite. Of course, the acoustics are not ideal, but the experience is the thing, and laying upon a blanket, replete with a Fortnum's picnic and a bottle or two of Krug whilst the strains of something beautiful wash over one is really one of those experiences that stay with one for a long time and fuel one's passion for the pursuit of music. Exquisite....

Regards

de Charlus


06-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 59
Post ID: 19488
Reply to: 19487
Yes and no...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 de charlus wrote:
It is indeed an interesting subject; I am instinctively drawn to it due to the fact that the majority of orchestral instruments - the majority of my listening is orchestral/chamber/classical soloists - produce their own sound through the resonance of a semi-sealed enclosure.
Hm, yes and no. Yes,  because of cause it is correct – any musical instrument use resonance of a semi-sealed enclosure. No, because it has nothing to do with audio. The mistake you made is very typical in audio, let me to explain. When a let say trumpet or viola player “ use the resonance of a semi-sealed enclosure” of own instrument then  not the responses crate the sound but the awareness of the player doe it. The player knows his/her instrument and has playing techniques, so the player not only use the responses but intentionally navigate and administer them in order to create the sound s/he intends. That does not exist in audio. Any resonance, coloration or character of sound are fixed and fixed mostly in linear pattern. There are some very rare adaptations of non-mechanical intelligence (like different level of narrow-band compression at different dynamic ranges) but they are very seldom. Mostly audio is brain-dead. If you build some kind of bent bass horn and it has the some kind of “resonance of a semi-sealed enclosure” then this resonance will be everywhere and always. The players who play that organ version of Art of Fugue do not know about that resonance in your midbass horn and THIS is the key in all of it. 

de Charlus, thanks for the London tips.  I will deploy wifey to the task, she is my traveling manager…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 60
Post ID: 19496
Reply to: 19487
...also...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 de charlus wrote:
You will find that the Wilson/Magico-type-thing....
I know that this is not the thead and this is not what you wanted to say but it is impossible to use a combination of "Wilson/Magico-type" as they are wery different companies withe very different products and objectives.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-18-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 61
Post ID: 19520
Reply to: 19496
Quite...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

My intention was to imply that these were companies who go beyond most in eschewing cabinet resonance, as per the context of the debate in question. I take no issue with the notion that these are companies with greatly disparate objectives and ends. In my opinion, Magico falls firmly into the "so neutral as to be thoroughly emasculated" camp, whilst in my experience some of the larger Wilsons possess notable musical virtues. I must add, though, that my experience of both has been somewhat limited, and wholly in listening rooms/installations unsuited to them.

de Charlus
06-18-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 62
Post ID: 19521
Reply to: 19520
I got it now.
fiogf49gjkf0d
de Charlus, I did not “get” that you were looking from the perspective of cabinet resonance. If so than they for sure are in the very same camp. Well, at least they talk about resonance control. How their speakers in reality deal with cabinet resonance no one knows.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-14-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
iWC Doppel
Posts 8
Joined on 12-13-2013

Post #: 63
Post ID: 20367
Reply to: 19521
The listening session ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, hi
Did you get the chance to listen ? I did listen for some time Kevins development pair in 2008 and they were superb (Using very large subs). I have a pair, in fact the first pair of tone scouts Kevin made. Interesting no one talks that much about the S5, I tried both in 92 and preferred the S5.
I also tried a lot of 12" drivers and stuck with the cheap fans drivers as well. I'm about to finalise my fist venture into subs, but moving house so it will have to wait. Any comments on my 'plan' would be appreciated. two JBL 4645c's driven by two BK electronics 500W class AB sub panels (gain, phase, xover roll off)
Rgds


G
12-14-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 64
Post ID: 20368
Reply to: 20367
S2 vs S5?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, heard Kevin’s installation with large subs. I did have S5 driver in past, it was a single driver and I did not use it in my system but rather experimented with it. I was not too impressed but it was long time and it was during my people when I was running over many many drivers, I very much might lose something… What do you so like in S5 and what do you think sonically is difference between S2 and S5? How did you use both of them?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
iWC Doppel
Posts 8
Joined on 12-13-2013

Post #: 65
Post ID: 20369
Reply to: 20368
The S5
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, hi

 Firstly it's probably worth a few minutes about me and my preferences, this will probably add some context. I have 'preferences' and priorities that don't match everyones, but are somewhat consistent with my group of friends who have hifi systems. I am looking for life like scale and weight, emotion, PRAT and musicality (before anyone talked about this to be honest), tonal richness and tonal colour. 'Accuracy' is quite a way down my list. I say this as I cannot remember 100% everything about the comparison.

The system at the time was Linn Sondek, Syrinx PU2, Koetsu Red, Audio Innovations S800 transformer, Croft Mirco preamp, Quad II power amps. It's worth noting that some of the items listed above might seem perhaps compromising, but I had tried and settled on this set up after a number of alternative amps (Audio Research SP10 MkII, early SET's, Leak's, and even Krell). I expected to dismiss the quad's quite quickly but with selected components they were extremely good and had tonal density and richness without compromising speed, dynamics and 'bite'.

Anyway moving on to the S2's. When I had the horns, they were easily persuaded to sound like a cheap PA system if they weren't fed with sympathetic sounds and this provoked the arrival of lots of stuff to experiment with and this included the S2's. I was moving on from Magneplanar's fed by Robertson 4010 amp (chosen in preference to a Krell KSA50 amongst others) and the voices and layering was for me very good with this set up (but compromised with scale, weight and ultimately dynamics) 'Memory Motel' by the Stones was awesome with the maggies !

Right S2's, well they came, they were heavy and this was late 92. I cannot remember explicitly but the S2's were more 'polite' then the S5's. The 'bite' and 'balls' on some of the jazz saxophone's was not conveyed with the same power from memory. Tonally I think (Not 100% sure here) the S2's were a little darker (something I usually like) but seemed a little more reserved and less dynamic. I do recall listening to a superb album by Wilber Du Parry 'that's a plenty' and the 'body', scale and sheer 'being there' was lost a little with the S2's. I did listen loud, especially after a few glasses of wine...

Another track by Sidney Bechet showed the same, you had to duck from the trumpets (in a good way) with the S5's, somehow there was a little restrain with the S2's. I could have happily lived with either, I did however feel the S5 was a little more dynamic, emotive and also a little 'thicker' in texture. By this I mean say brass instruments had weight, colour and 'edge' it was like a 'thicker' slice of cake, just as clear cut, more body and energy included in each slice. The S5's are a bit uneven from memory, but that's like the mid hump of early Linn's not accurate but I like it and maybe this inaccuracy pleased me a the time. If I wanted to pop a disc on like Natalie Merchant and want her to really live and breath her emotions it was the S5 over the S2 for me at that time with my system.
12-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 66
Post ID: 20370
Reply to: 20369
.....understandable.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, that all is understandable. S5 has ceramic magnet and driving it with SS amp and listening indifferent trivial pop music you shall appreciate it more.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
iWC Doppel
Posts 8
Joined on 12-13-2013

Post #: 67
Post ID: 20371
Reply to: 20370
Musical taste
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,
I never drove the S5's with a SS amp by the way, I drove Maggies in the past with a SS amp and yes I do believe voice reproduction was very good on these speakers. Musical taste is subjective and I make no apologies for liking the Stones. I have a reasonable record collection, I could have picked another track indeed, the original CBS of Bob Dylan (Mono) I listened to as well on both drivers as well as a Thelonious Monk piece. I rarely listen to Classical btw

12-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
iWC Doppel
Posts 8
Joined on 12-13-2013

Post #: 68
Post ID: 20372
Reply to: 20371
The Vox Olympian listen
fiogf49gjkf0d
BTW you didn't comment on the LV Vox Olympians, I'd be interested to see your thoughts here
12-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 69
Post ID: 20373
Reply to: 20372
OK
fiogf49gjkf0d
The Olympians are OK, I told about them in Kitties go to London thread. From your explanation above I understood that you drove your s5 with Robertson, Krells etc… You still did not say how you you’re the S5.  If you insist that you never drove S5 with SS then you should otherwise your comparing S5 and S2 is not valid. If you read my site then you will see my past comments that ceramic magnets do work much better with SS amps. For sure it shall not be Krells or PP amps but anyhow…

Also, what I said has nothing to do with musical taste or with anything subjective. Please do not take it too personal but if you do not listen classical music and do not use you your audio to fulfill your objective in classical repertoire then it is too early for your to read this site, not to mention to post in here. You shall not be apologetic for liking what you like but it is not about your taste but about your understanding the goals and method of audio. Anyhow, I do not feel to continue this conversation.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
iWC Doppel
Posts 8
Joined on 12-13-2013

Post #: 70
Post ID: 20374
Reply to: 20373
Open or Closed ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Crikey,
I will take you up on not posting.... if that is your desire. I do hope you allow me a final post, shame I thought I'd stumbled across an interesting site, but no matter.
For clarity I did not drive either the S5 or S2 with a SS amp other than a quick try with a KSA 50, all other experiments were with valve. I had no expectations regarding the S2 or S5 and preferred the S5, hence I kept them and returned the S2's. The amps included a AudioNote Ongaku, a number or different preamps, AR SP10, SP6, SP8, Croft Micro, Audio innovations (I cant recall the series, but a number L1, L2 ?), border patrol, numerous step up transformers including a ludicrously expensive Audio Note. Numerous different cabling.
Clearly my opinions are of no relevance and having used Horns since 92 and still using a separate SS based biamped system which offers a different perspective, I also have a lot of irrelevant experience with Avant Garde as I know the UK importer very well and now use bespoke TRON amplification.
I'll wait until I listen to a lot of classical and look forward to being enlightened.
12-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 71
Post ID: 20375
Reply to: 20374
...different perspectives.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Come on, I do not prohibit you to post, do whatever you want. I just say that with objective to make you playback to play The Deep Purple you won’t find neither understanding what I am saying nor any common sense in audio generally. Yes, if you develop interest in classical music and will formulate for you’re a clear vision what/how you would like more or less civilized music to sound in your listening room then you will find a perspective to read this site.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
iWC Doppel
Posts 8
Joined on 12-13-2013

Post #: 72
Post ID: 20376
Reply to: 20375
Preferences
fiogf49gjkf0d

I'm open to Classical, I have about 200 or so albums, I do like some pieces very much. I simply prefer jazz, blues, folk and male/female vocal on the main. I don't listen to rock at all, the horns are currently playing Charlie Haden (Jazz) as it happens. If you don't play vocal I think that's a shame. I'm sure your well tested Wagner tells you a lot and communicates with you. There is no difference IMO with my preference for Oscar Peterson and communication and indeed audio evaluation.
For me my HiFi has one job, and that's recreating the emotion and magic of the live event. I like most have to evaluate opinions for credibility and personal preferences on forums, as always there are posters with no substance and posters where the objective is different and hence the value is diluted. As I note accuracy and in many ways 'detail' for me are secondary, that may be different for classical. When I do play classical I want to dynamics and scale as if I'm near the front, right at the back is too distant to tug at my heart strings, your right on preferences.
What db level do you listen at ?
05-20-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 73
Post ID: 20855
Reply to: 19356
Olympian in Munich 2014
fiogf49gjkf0d
It got a good feedback...

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/67/674920.html


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-30-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 74
Post ID: 21439
Reply to: 11332
Vox Olympian review by Roy Gregory
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/living_voice_vox_olympian_vox_elysian.htm


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-30-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
iWC Doppel
Posts 8
Joined on 12-13-2013

Post #: 75
Post ID: 21441
Reply to: 21439
LV or WE !
fiogf49gjkf0d
Glad they are well received 
I spent 3 days at the Munich show there were only two interesting rooms, the LV room (but for me the music was not something I enjoy, so I did find evaluation more difficult and shows are shows) and the star for me by some margin was the WE/Silbatone room. This was remarkable in every respect apart from accuracy in some areas, but with that level of scale, texture and dynamics everything else fell by the wayside as weak, unconvincing and uninvolving.....
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