GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - Well That You Are Concerned

09-19-2010

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jessie.dazzle

Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #:	301
Post ID:	14493
Reply to:	14488

Shaker interface

Very nice!

What about asking your carpenter to leave a nice neat 5mm joint, letting the edge of the horn remain independent from the sheetrock wall?

Alternatively, you could use white plastazote foam; closed-cell, easy to cut and easy to paint (very common in sporting equipment... Often used to make floatation devices):
http://store.friddles.com/browse.cfm/4,2014.html

And and and.... How do they sound?

jd*

How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.

09-19-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	302
Post ID:	14494
Reply to:	14493

The overlap between drywall and horns and no Sound.

Yes, to have an overlap between drywall and horns with drywall layer extended from horn for a few mm is my leading idea. Still I do not have a final solution yet and am conspiring options.

How does it sound? I have no idea. I understandably have a lot of temptations to try it but I made an agreement with myself that I do not remove the throat foam tampons until the construction work will be over. The ropes that you see inside of the horns are the leads to the second section plugs and they seal the front chamber. The plugs might be only removed and it will be VERY difficult to put them back. It will be a lot of drywall cutting, plaster sanding, walls and horns fine finishing done at the mouth of the horn and I do not want any dirt toward to throat. So, for now the second section tampon is in pace and it will be ceremonially removed after the room will be cleaned up.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-19-2010

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RF at Ona
Posts 12
Joined on 05-29-2007

Post #:	305
Post ID:	14503
Reply to:	14494

Bravo Romy & carpenter … as for the joints

Congratulations on the construction and installation of your horns. May your pleasure at the results reward your effort and expense. I find their installed appearance even more geometrically striking than anticipated and I suspect now that some of the design choices I wondered about earlier can be attributed to a conscious or instinctive design eye.

As for the horn/drywall joints, basic ideas have been covered but here are some further thoughts:

1 - Settling:
In addition to vibration, remember the house framing is going to settle under the weight of the horns and the horns themselves will bend and warp a little as they respond to their own weight and the temperature and humidity in the attic – (they are not waterproofed on the exterior). This settling is going to expand the gaps over time and you may want to anticipate this.

The idea to keep the horn free of the wallboard/joint compound with a gap covered by some trim or thin fascia (face board) that is free to move with the horn but unattached to the wall probably can work even with serious settling.

2 – TRANSLUCENT silicone fill
For fairly thin gaps you can fill with translucent silicone AFTER painting. The color passes through the translucent material, which should be invisible for this use. You don’t paint over this so the poor paint adhering properties of the otherwise excellent silicone material is not a problem – it’s why they sell this stuff.

3 – Scoring or precracking
Create a deliberate crack and keep the horn and wall separate. You can create a thin straight and virtually unobtrusive gap by filling to the horn and scoring with a razor blade or utility knife and straightedge. If you are fussy, you can do this again after painting and slice through the paint with an even thinner slit. This should eliminate the tendency for unattractive irregular cracking where some cracking is inevitable. Deal with any widening gaps later.

4 – Accented foam stuffing
It you decide to use a fairly wide gap with some foam or other expandable material there is the option of giving this gap a distinctive appearance instead of trying to make it unobtrusive. You can loosely wind a colored ribbon or some interestingly textured material around the foam creating a contrasting border. The right person with good taste could make this work for others it’s an artsy-crafty flourish.

Cheers,
Robert

09-19-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	306
Post ID:	14504
Reply to:	14503

The drywall and horn conflict.

RF at Ona wrote:
Congratulations on the construction and installation of your horns. May your pleasure at the results reward your effort and expense. I find their installed appearance even more geometrically striking than anticipated and I suspect now that some of the design choices I wondered about earlier can be attributed to a conscious or instinctive design eye.

Actually the horns look and feel absolutely the way how I envisioned them. There are decorative things that I do not like, where my carpenter override me and I let it to pass but they are minor and I might live with them, at least for now. There are some mistakes that I recognize now, purely my decisions but they still are something that I would characterize as minor.

RF at Ona wrote:
In addition to vibration, remember the house framing is going to settle under the weight of the horns and the horns themselves will bend and warp a little as they respond to their own weight and the temperature and humidity in the attic – (they are not waterproofed on the exterior). This settling is going to expand the gaps over time and you may want to anticipate this.

Good point and I have brought it to my carpenter attention a few days back. I think it will be between him and drywall specialist that he desired to ring to the project.

About the rest, interpreting what was advised to me in the site, in the personal emails and talking with my local people we decided to indent the horn ¼-½ inch behind the drywall and let the drywall specialist to finish a perfect shape of mouth window make from drywall, terminated with plastic/meal corner trim. Then we will run some kind of door/window trim with some kind of elastic material between the very edge of the drywall and the horn.
The concept is clean and it will work but I do not like the idea that the drywall edge will be perpendicular. I would like the edge of the drywall if not continue the curve of the horn but at least to be at angle and to have slope. I need to sell to this idea my carpenter. I wonder if exist any drywall anglular terminators (corner trim)….

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-20-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	307
Post ID:	14506
Reply to:	14504

Cosmetology minor screw up.

That is a moment that I would like bring up. It was unknown to me before but now I recognize it as a “cosmetic bug” and if somebody would do the similar project then you might consider my experience.

My room has two colors – the color of walls and the color of cathedral ceiling. It is not white but warmer color - Behr 740C-1 Seaside Sand. The ceiling is painted with the same Seaside Sand coals but with 50% less density, so it feels “whiter”. So, when I decided to paint the horn with textured paint I use the same Seaside Sand color matching the horns with the color of the walls. However, I see that it was a mistake. It would be much better of the horn will be painted with the color of ceiling NOT the color of the walls. A horn feels as a part of ceiling not the part of the walls but they tend to feel darker. So, lighter color would work better for horns. I will see if my idea or light in the horns will work. I do not know if you paid attention but the section #2 has window. You migh see it between the legs of the lift in here:

This window is 3 layers of Plexiglas - there was a lot or efforts to make it optically transparent but sonically secured and structurally firm. I have light souses prepared and switchable electric power run to those windows. I hope that those lights will bright up the horn’s ass a bit. Let see how it goes.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-21-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	310
Post ID:	14517
Reply to:	14516

I will see it myself during the winter…

Bill wrote:
A thought. Why not super-insulate the top of the attic against the roof with 20-30 inches of fiberglass insulation or 12 inches of foam and leave the space around the mouths of the horns open to allow circulation of air around the horns. Would probably cut your energy bill and at the same time keep the drivers at room temperature. Othwerwise they'll be very cold in the winter and hot in the summer.

I did consider it in past – to put a wall between the section of the attic where is the horns to keep it more or less thermo-controlled. My carpenter came with a idea (that I like) to marks it not a "wall" but curtain from a think fabric. The insulation in the house is made with “cold attic”. The roof of the house (where is not cathedral roof) has no insulation and the insulation is located between the attic and ceiling. The listening room and kitchen that have cathedral roof have standard cathedral insulation. I did not live in this house on winter and I do not know how it will behave. I am doing next week the multi-zoning for heating and some other measures that shall take care about thermo-efficiency of the house. I think I will live my first winder with this house to see what need to be done and how the horn will impact anything thermal. I do not have an experience now to predict how it will behave. I did consult with a few people but I am not convinced with their judgment. Furthermore two weeks back, when the horns were installed and all my insulation was exposed I have the hose thermo-audited. I was not impressed as they pretty much did not say what I did not know. I think on winter I will be able to see myself how my insulation perfume and how horns behave from thermal perspective.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-21-2010

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miab
Canada
Posts 46
Joined on 02-07-2008

Post #:	311
Post ID:	14521
Reply to:	14517

Condensation is the problem

Actually the thermal efficiency or inefficiency is not the problem. It is the condensation that occurs when a cold plane meets a warm one. Warm air vapour WILL condense on the colder plane of the attic. what is in between is your wooden horn structure and drivers. You've insulated the back chambers very well but forward of the driver mounting it will be cold on the outside of horn. The paper cone and coil is what I would worry about. The horn should survive because of the plywood and drying factor. Expect weeping horns though. Your cathedral ceilling makes the problem worse because because of the warm air rising. Get on a ladder now that your hole is plugged and stick your head up there and you will feel the warmer temperature.

The best and proper solution is to do what I proposed before. Contain the horns within their own room within the attic and heat and cool the that room as you would any other room in the house. With a return air also. The cheap easy semi-solution is to stuff as much insulation around the horns as possible and paint the inside of the horns and triangle wall of the horns with a shellac based paint to act as a vapour barrier. After going through all this trouble/expense and the project looking to be a beautiful and permanent fixture in your life it would be a shame to dismiss this as a "I think I will live my first winder with this house to see what need to be done and how the horn will impact anything thermal."

09-21-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	312
Post ID:	14522
Reply to:	14521

I'm kind of new to all of this….

Thanks, miab. Unfortunately I have no my own experience to spend a winter in a standalone house with own heating and I can’t estimate the value of your advice or the advices of others. My local people do give me some recommendations but I have no own practical assessments of them. I am sure during the winter I will be expecting the thermal performance of my horns and to see if any moisture or drift will take place. For a time being I need to stick with what my carpenter does and I have no my own judgment at this point.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-22-2010

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Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #:	313
Post ID:	14526
Reply to:	14522

Insulation

You need to insulate around the horns. The attic around them will take on the outside temperature. The wood surface of the horns will be a poor insulator. Without insulation, it would be the equivalent of having a wall in the room without insulation, but even worse as the attic is hotter than the outside in the4 summer, and in the winter all the heat in the room rises to the ceiling and will escape through the horn wall. In the summer, water will condense on the outside of the horn and in thwe winter on the inside, thus rotting out the wood or allowing fungus to grow. Plus your heating and cooling bill will skyrocket. Thus either insulate and vapor barrier the attic side of the horns or completely insulate the outside walls and roof of the attic.

Bill

09-22-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	314
Post ID:	14527
Reply to:	14526

Monitoring moisture.

Bill, hold on. Are you saying that moisture can go across the plywood? The whole point of plywood is that is has layer of wood mixed with layers of glue and as I undusted the glue is not transparent for water. Baltic Birch plywood that I use all marked with MR grade (moisture-resistant) as it made with Carbamide glue – I was told that it is water- resistant. I am certainly under presumption that plywood is much better barriers for moisture then regular wood. I would not want to have river of moist running outside of the horn but I do not think that condensation will be able to go across the horn. Of cause I might be wrong…

What I would need to do it to monitor the state of sand that is use around the horns. The sand shall be dry in there now. If I see that sand got most then it will be a sign. Or perhaps even better - I can buy in Radio Shake for $20 a remote temperature miter with humidity sensor:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049773#

Then I will be monitoring if the moisture be a problem…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-22-2010

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	316
Post ID:	14529
Reply to:	14527

Earlier in This Thread

Romy, Bill is spot on about water condensing into droplets on plywood; I have seen plenty of this on patio covers and under porches and subfloors, for instance. It could happen when the warm, moisture-laden air (from inside the house) that is inside the horn meets the colder plywood. If this can happen outdoors where the temperature differences are minimal, it can certainly happen indoors where the temperature differences are greater. Of course any "exposed" metal would exacerbate the exchange.

But you already had the options laid out for you earlier in this thread. Either you insulate the horn, or you insulate and "condition" the attic, at least the part the horn is in. That's about it, I reckon. Success without doing either of these things would be plain, dumb luck.

Best regards,
Paul S

09-22-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	317
Post ID:	14530
Reply to:	14529

I think I will be fine with insulation.

As I said, I do not know anything about insulation and I brought all of it to attention to my carpenter. Furthermore he read all that you guys said and he stated that you all have no idea what you are talking about, that was the actual quote. He did stressed however that you guys are no incorrect generally but what you say is not applicable in my case as you do not he know how the things are done I my attic and it is very difficult to you to get anything from my pictures and from my explanations. He assured that all necessary insulation actions will be done in the way how they need to be done and I shall calm down with my concerns. Well, what can I say? He obviously knows what he does and probably I need to shut up and top see how it does. My carpenter has kind of style to deal with the issues in his own pace, what I did not see him doing was doing stupid things. so, I have no reasons do not let him to do what he intend to do – so far I was not screwed and I have no reasons to believe that he will fail with insulation strategy. It is not that I do not appreciate you guy trying to advise me the things that I do not know but I think my carpenter has better perspective upon the specifics of my given project and I would let him to run the show…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-22-2010

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	318
Post ID:	14533
Reply to:	14530

Boots on the Ground

True enough, the guy who "knows what he is doing" and also has all the relevant, job-specific information is indeed best positioned to deal with your concerns in "his own way". No one supposes your guy is stupid or lazy, by the way; but you keep raising the issues, yourself, and so you are the main source of the way these concerns have been "framed". I do not wonder that your carpenter does not want to "discuss" every fucking detail with an "online committee" of self-styled "experts". In my own case, of course, I really am an expert in these matters; which is to say I totally understand and appreciate your carpenter's "attitude" toward "helpful suggestions". That I absolutely would have done some things differently than you've done them is NOT to say you have not "dealt with" things "sufficiently". The proof, as ever, is in the pudding.

As I said before,

Mazel tov,
Paul S

09-25-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	321
Post ID:	14557
Reply to:	14553

The ego time capsule.

When my midbass horns projects will be finished the horns will be peaty much organic part of house and without looking at this thread an ordinary person would never understand what is behind and what it is for. When we look at reasoning for Carnac Stones or the Nasca images then we also are absolutely clueless what is it for but thousands year back I am sure people had no problems to understand what they were doing.

I heard that the people who built the contemporary Mt. Rushmore sculpture thought among the same lines and reasonably felt that in 5000 years no one would remember who George Washington or Theodore Roosevelt were, or that Unites States even exist as a country. The 4 curved in granite heard will however stay and the historian will scratch foreheads thinking who the hell the people on the mount are. So, the Mt. Rushmore builders implanted into the mount belly a titanium vault with messages made on porcelain panels. The messages contain explanation what is all about. The panels are sealed in teakwood box and imbedded into a few tone polished granite. The idea is that this type of time capsule might live hundreds thousands years being discovered in future it will give perspective to Mt. Rushmore sculpture. As much as I hate Mt. Rushmore as the similar part of crappy art-Americana but the whole concept of sending a message future civilizations via this mean I find is cleaver one.

OK, my horn and my house will not live 1000s years. I will be lucky if it live for extra 30-50 years. Still in 30-50 years the house will be without me and I very much see the questions on the faces of the future house owners: “What the hell is it?” So, I decided as I finish this there to print the thread out on some kind of non-rotting wax paper and to stick my little time capsule for the attention of whoever comes in future...

The Nice Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-26-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	322
Post ID:	14564
Reply to:	14553

Temptations!!!

The entire morning I am cleaning house and listening WCRB, warming myself up for 3MP broadcast of Riccardo Muti leads Chicago with Verdi's Requiem. Hey, did I tell you that am listening my new midbass horns?

Well, I do and I do not. The throats of the horns are still plugs with a few inches of foam tampons and I am listening them as they are. I have so much Temptation to remove the plugs and to hear the thing but I will never will be able to put plugs back – there is a LOT of dirt in the hams not and will be even more this week.

Can I say anything about sound of the horns with the plugs? I do not think that anybody, including me care about this sound but I have to tell you that it is VERY funny sound. Not the sound of the horn but the horns localization. Even stain in the mid of the room the horns do not indicate too much where they are and the sound come very defused from the entire room, it is in way how the sound of organ in a church. Sure the foam plug is a hell of low pass filter… still it is very difficult to say anything now as I think now the driver work ONLY into the front chamber and the resonant frequency of the driver is no less then 150Hz.

I can wait what I will remove those damn plugs….

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-28-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	323
Post ID:	14586
Reply to:	14553

The first shaking test.

The horns are still plugged but I desired to test if the vibration from the midbass hors will be detectable on the listing room floor. The mouth of the horns does vibrate. Well, it is not a vibration but rather some shaking – pit in this way – if I hold my hand on the mouth then I do feel that the horn operates.

So, I desired to play it at full throttle. I maxed out my preamp and played a fragment from Queen of Spades. There is an episode in first act when a ghost comes to Countess and predicts that she will die when a yond lover will force her to reveal the magical secret of the Three Cards. As soon the prediction stated the orchestra dive into a magnificent fortissississimo, the whole orchestra with drams, brasses and strings introduce the hit of fate and then hold it for a while.

I played it a few time and was trying to detect if anything will be sensing on floor. It looks like it was free from any bone-transmitted vibration. So far so good. If it behaves like this without the throat plugs then my concerns are not warranted.

The caT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-28-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	324
Post ID:	14587
Reply to:	14553

The very right color.

Romy the Cat wrote:

I was helping my carpenter and was laying some layers of compound on my triangular wall (wait until it dry is a waste of time, so we do in it two shifts day and night) and I caught myself on the thought that I am lucky that I did not went for brick wall finish of my wall. This pastel color of the room I find works so wonderfully on the horns – I truly fall in love with the light color of these horns. My carpenter is convincing me that when it will be done then the wall will be so smooth that that one would feel that the horn is not the part of the wall. Very-very good. Can’t wait to turn the lights under the second section window – it will make the horns to feel very deep and in way mysterious… Very enthusiastic!!!

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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