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  »  New  45Hz Bass Horn..  Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  315462  09-19-2006
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  87480  11-03-2008
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  290759  10-28-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1563457  08-03-2007
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2926315  03-28-2010
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  1170858  03-25-2005
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2145747  07-26-2009
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  »  New  Practical Guide for Back Chambers Tuning...  Back chamber’s cost-benefit....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  75989  10-21-2006
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  18106  10-08-2010
  »  New  Midbass impedance bumps -- why and what to do?..  You need to stop deceive yourself....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  194211  10-21-2010
  »  New  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee..  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  17287  02-03-2011
  »  New  Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...  A possible solution to better impulse?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  128340  06-13-2011
  »  New  My new “New” listening room, 2024..  That is not enough efforts in this direction....  Audio Discussions  Forum     31  18197  05-08-2024
08-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 201
Post ID: 14345
Reply to: 14342
A driver of some sort?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 noviygera wrote:
What is that round yellow thing in the right corner of the picture? A driver of some sort?

Yes, they are Fane 24” bass driver with 24Hz primary resonance. I am waiting for the final sound check; the final is long time away. I will be testing today different back chamber size and different drivers. I have a few Altecs (416, 515E, 515G, 515B), one JBLs (2225 or 2226), a few Vitavoxes (151, 154) and a few other brands. It will be fun, I juts need to find a way to attach them – probably I will bud a Vitavox-to-other driver convertor.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 202
Post ID: 14349
Reply to: 13597
Digital crossover…. Wanted.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I had a Behringer DCX2496 that used for nothing and I think it got broken. I do not want to by another one. What I looking for is some kind cheap, no more than $100 solution that would allow be to have 4 order filters  and crossover point up to 250hz. I do not mind to borrow from somebody for a month as I would not need to keep it. I need it to test the low-pass filter on my midbass horn…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 203
Post ID: 14352
Reply to: 14345
Listening different drives with midbass horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Yes, they are Fane 24” bass driver with 24Hz primary resonance. I am waiting for the final sound check; the final is long time away. I will be testing today different back chamber size and different drivers. I have a few Altecs (416, 515E, 515G, 515B), one JBLs (2225 or 2226), a few Vitavoxes (151, 154) and a few other brands. It will be fun, I juts need to find a way to attach them – probably I will bud a Vitavox-to-other driver convertor.
 I made a 15/40 adapter for my midbass horn and listened my horn with different drivers. It was a complete fiasco.
 
Since the horn never was a part of my playback and I do not know where and how it will be used I truly do not know what to listen while I am listening. Sure, all drivers sound slightly different or even hugely different but at this point I  do not know how to assess which one will ne better for my future unknown application. So, I discard the other drivers, at least for now.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Prince_Charming
Posts 1
Joined on 12-23-2009

Post #: 204
Post ID: 14354
Reply to: 14349
MiniDSP
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi, have a look at this:

http://www.minidsp.com/onlinestore/details/46/7/minidsp-kits/minidsp-kit-revb
08-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 205
Post ID: 14357
Reply to: 14352
Got a test croosover.
fiogf49gjkf0d
After much consideration I desired to get my test crossover. I chose when for Velodyne SMS-1 that someone pitched at this site before. The unit has 6, 12, 18, 24, or 48 dB/octave low-pass filters that I need and runs up to 200Hz. I do not think that I will have higher crossover point then 200Hz. It is $400 piece and a bit more expensive but I guess I will be using it for testing of my LF channels, so I figured that it is worth to have it. Now what I need is schematic of this SMS-1. I would need to rise impedance to a half meg and most likely to tune the input and out stages as they usually are very badly done in those type of units. If someone have schematic then I would greatly appreciate it, I do not mind to pay for it.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 206
Post ID: 14358
Reply to: 14341
My horn trivia
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ok, can someone to explain why the horn has those wings?       

Midbass_progress_71.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 178
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 207
Post ID: 14361
Reply to: 14358
Steps rather
fiogf49gjkf0d
so you can access the top ?? And on the side 15" Altec 803A (hard suspension ) is a very nice wet and soft sounding midbass driver.
Regards, W
08-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 208
Post ID: 14363
Reply to: 14361
The traps.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Nope, they are not steps but traps. I figured out that if I load the horn with 2” sand as I intend to then we will not lift it up. So, I am planning to lay sand in very think bags after the horn will be lifted and installed.  I am now in process of ordering those bags. Since the horns are not horizontal then to prevent the bags from sliding I will have a few traps, sort of bad holders….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 209
Post ID: 14364
Reply to: 14341
Eventually!!!
fiogf49gjkf0d
I spent some time with my back chamber, trying to drive the driver resonance heighted. I built a sealed sarcophagus as a back chamber (if somebody are interested I can post a picture) approximately 1.5 gallons but it moved Fs for 700Hz.  Then I began to fill it with all imaginary shit and I got another 2.5Hz. Not enough! So, I concluded that the size of back chamber shall be infinitely small, perhaps even smaller then the size of the driver basket. Then I got a strong electric tape and tape out the driver basket windows. It was sealed but the tape, even in 3 layers, still have some elasticity. 

Midbass_progress_72.JPG

The resonance went up to 49Hz. That is already something I figured and begun to punch needle hole in the tape. After the 5 holes the resonance was set at exactly 42Hz. I took away my 100R resistor (I measure voltage not current) and play some music for test. I can’t describe with other words that amassing. It was in fact so good that I felt crying. It was absolutely different bass then what I had from this horn before. It was much deeper, with much more textured bass. It was huge in size as before but this time it was stunningly soft. The softness and kindness of the horn made me flabbergasted. I play at much moderated volume but horn was screaming like thunder. Making it painfully loud made me to fell… not painful, in fact I played it so loud that I thought my basement windows will be blown away. Still, at this barbaric level I felt no chest pressure and no body discomfort.  The volume of tone was rising faster than the volume of pressure –and this is not just a big deal but this is a huge! The softness of the horn sound is from out there. The horn is rolling to it’s pitch very genital, like a young mother laying a bad a sleeping infant. Still it doe it very confident with an amazing sense of anti-compression.

Hey, I figured out that I got this midbass driving my horn from table radio, with unfinished horn (5 and 7 section are not glued), not loaded the horn with sand, using chicken wire as back chamber and sitting in my shitty basement. If so then I think I will be VERY happy when I bring my horn upstairs.
Now about what I am concern. It will be VERY important to set the low pass for this horn properly. The upper frequency of this horn is horrible, absolutely horrible. I think it will be needed a more or less sharper filter and I know at this point that that it will need to be set VERY smartly and very prissily.  Surrey it all will be after the horns are intaled but so far the result I get makes me very happy and very enthusiastic. 

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 210
Post ID: 14365
Reply to: 14364
My favorite quote in this post:
fiogf49gjkf0d
>>The horn is rolling to it’s pitch very genital, like a young mother laying a bad a sleeping infant.

now this is priceless Smile
08-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 211
Post ID: 14366
Reply to: 14365
Yep, it was me…
fiogf49gjkf0d
 noviygera wrote:
>>The horn is rolling to it’s pitch very genital, like a young mother laying a bad a sleeping infant.

now this is priceless
 
Of cause it shall be read: “The horn is rolling to it’s pitch very genteel, like a young mother laying in a bad a sleeping infant". Those MS Word automated check spelling sometime do wonders with my typing….

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=3823

:-)
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 212
Post ID: 14367
Reply to: 13597
The second horn is rising…
fiogf49gjkf0d

Midbass_progress_73.JPG

Midbass_progress_74.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 213
Post ID: 14368
Reply to: 14367
Congratulations! (and X/O Bitching...)
fiogf49gjkf0d
Sounds like you have the important parts, all right.  Well done!

I am in Crossover Hell, myself, just now.  They are the Devil's Playground!  If you can get the drivers' actual, in-the horn, in the room, raw active data curves, then I recommend LEAP as a starting point.  Still, by my reckoning, the "ideal" x/o program could actively monitor, take into consideration and modify accordingly the active x/o insertion values, themselves, in order to better "predict" the working x/o.  At this point, it feels like pissing into the wind...

...but perhaps the methodology is different with the line-level x/o?

Best regards,
Paul S
08-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 214
Post ID: 14369
Reply to: 14364
Another way of rising the resonance frequency
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
The volume of tone was rising faster than the volume of pressure...

Congratulations. It is very promising result. I think the degree of tonal density will jump to even higher level if you attach a thick felt on the back side of the Vitavox chassis just behind its cone. It will cost you almost no efforts to try it. Also instead of using electrical tape, try to seal the back of the driver with a 2mm thick sheet of microperforated tonewood and then glue a leather layer over it. Then you could also pierce multiple tiny holes in the leather until you get the same 42Hz tunning. I think you will get much more interesting tone if you use this method.

Regards,
Haralanov



"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
08-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 215
Post ID: 14370
Reply to: 14364
Relationship of rear chamber volume to Fs
fiogf49gjkf0d
First question:

With the 1.5 gallon rear chamber, the resonance is 700Hz
With the basket sealed by tape (very small rear chamber), the resonance is 49Hz 
 
Assuming there was not a typographical error, from this we can conclude: 
 
1) Larger rear chamber volume = Higher resonance
2) Smaller rear chamber volume = Lower resonance
 
???

3) With the 5 small holes punched through the tape, effectively increasing the rear chamber volume, the resonance drops to 42Hz.
 
Only number 3 makes sense to me.
 
What am I missing?

Second question:
 
In the image showing the taped basket, the device on the top of the stack appears to be a frequency generator. If so, can you confirm that the signal is routed through, and amplified by the table radio? This would seem logical.
 
The reason I ask: I have always been afraid to rout a signal from the generator into either my pre-amp or directly to my power amps. Doing so would be very convenient, but I did not want to risk damage to the equipment, as the output voltage of the generator measures significantly more than a typical source component.

Is there a safe way to rout a signal from this type of generator, directly into a pre-amp? If not, then into a power amp?

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
08-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 216
Post ID: 14371
Reply to: 14369
The new Back chamber and the back-wiping compression driver.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 haralanov wrote:
Also instead of using electrical tape, try to seal the back of the driver with a 2mm thick sheet of microperforated tonewood and then glue a leather layer over it. Then you could also pierce multiple tiny holes in the leather until you get the same 42Hz tunning. I think you will get much more interesting tone if you use this method.

Come on, Haralanov, of cause the electrical tape to seal the back was a temporary method just to test the needed volume. Now, sine I know what my approximate final value will be (in this case the “approximate final” is not oxymoronic) the final back chamber will will be built. It will be very massive, if you look at 3 pictures above then you will see the 3 steps of ¾ plywood – that will be the thickness of the walls with a massive sealed door on the back. The residual volume inside will be displaced. I still contemplating how. In my upperbass I used non-condensable construction foam (do not confuse with furniture of acoustic foam). I might use this method here as well but still have other options opened.
 
 haralanov wrote:
I think the degree of tonal density will jump to even higher level if you attach a thick felt on the back side of the Vitavox chassis just behind its cone. It will cost you almost no efforts to try it.

Hm, I would say rather no then yes. I have written about it in the past. I have experimented with many drivers placing in the back chambers all imaginable materials, including the felts. The result was not to straight forward. The size of the back chamber s in MF compression driver is very small, the double distance is not compatible with the wavelength, so the reflections are not truly affective in there. I do admit the with some drivers some changed were notable, including the Viotavoxes but I was not able to say certainly that one way was better then other. It was years back and I do not remember but I think even now my S2 drive that I use for MF have a very fine layer of 3M Scotch-Brite pads installed in back chambers. I think my S2 are long due to prophylactic tune up and what I do it I will confirm it. Still, I do remember that it was kind of irrelevant to me to leave the pads in the driver or to remove it after I finished my experiments as the result was not “better and worse” but rather about the irrelevant differences. I do remember that the differenced had nothing to do with tone but were rela to ability of the driver to play compressed sound in more relaxed way.

Rgs, Romy the Cat
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 217
Post ID: 14372
Reply to: 14369
Hard rear chamber/basket cover
fiogf49gjkf0d
Here's how I'd make a hard rear cover/rear chamber.

I describe the process in detail, as it is a good investment of my time; I expect to have a similar condition and requirement for my own mid-bass horns (intended for use with AK-151s).

This approach consists of casting a rear cover for the basket, with small ports to allow precise tuning of the rear chamber volume.

So here's how I'd do it: 

Have your carpenter cut two rings from 3/4" thick hardwood that slip snugly over the magnet cover of each driver. The ring should have a radial cut about the width of a saw blade to allow for slight expansion/contraction.

Place the least desirable AK series driver you own face down on a table.

Install the ring just below the back plate of the magnet cover and secure it in place using a hose clamp of a diameter large enough to fit around the perimeter of the ring. Cover the down-facing side of the ring with tape.

Neatly cover the basket from the rear with either tape or plastic wrap. Build a 1.5-inch-high "fence" around the periphery of the basket just above the mounting flange using thin but stiff cardboard. Build a similar fence around the binding posts. Wrap the magnet with tape, building up the thickness to around 1/16th of an inch (for clearance); be consistent... Do not wrap more tape around the top of the magnet than around the bottom. Using a brush, apply a thin coat of liquid bees wax (heat it up in the microwave) to all inner surfaces; the tape-covered back of the basket and the fences. 
 
The covers will be made of synthetic/acrylic plaster; it is important to understand that despite the name, this is nothing like gypsum plaster... Once it takes a set, it is hard and tough, very much like hard plastic. This is what I used to make my mid-bass horns... Once set, it is indestructible. Get it from places that supply sculptors:

http://shop.propbuilder.co.uk/

http://shop.propbuilder.co.uk/jesmonite-11-c.asp

It will be expensive, but for the quantity needed, it is not worth trying to get it from the manufacturer. A very cheap and effective alternative would be to use hemp-reinforced natural gypsum plaster (plaster of Paris), mixed for a very hard set, and built up to around 1.5" thickness. Done right, it would not be fragile. There are other alternatives (fiber-reinforced polyester auto body filler, slightly thinned with polyester resin for example; do not breath it) but they are not so user-friendly. For this process I'll assume the acrylic synthetic plaster, as it is ideal.

Mix up a batch and fill in the volume behind the basket in stages, starting down at the perimeter of the driver, working up toward the center, inlaying fiber reinforcement at each stage. For this you can use just about anything from hemp (the real stuff, available from fine arts supply stores) to fiberglass matt, available at auto body repair supply shops... Even Pep Boys has it (avoid tightly-woven cloth). The fibers will need to be fully saturated with the acrylic resin before they are inlayed (this is why I don't recommend the tightly-woven cloth; it is not as easy to saturate with the acrylic resin). Cut the matt into manageably-small, odd-shaped pieces before saturating them. Wear surgeon's gloves when working with the resin and use a small brush to position the reinforcements. It is not toxic, but its a pain to clean off your hands if allowed to set.

Continue the process until the desired thickness is achieved, building a neat collar around the magnet up under the hardwood ring.
 
Here is some info on how to use the product:
http://www.propbuilder.co.uk/howto/jesmonitelaminate.html
 
Allow a minimum of 4 hours before removing the cured cover.
 
Repeat the process for the second driver.

If the lamination is sloppy, the edges can be trimmed using a sheetrock blade in a sabre saw, or simply ground down with an aggressive sanding disc mounted on a hand-held angle grinder (really aggressive, like 16-36 grit, with a stiff backing). All this can be avoided if the lamination is done with care.
 
Buy small air bleeders like this:
http://www.faster-motocross.com/images/15-1027lg.jpg 

Available here:
http://motorcycle.motorcycle-superstore.com/motorcycle/Fork%20Bleeder
 
Alternatively, do a search on "fork bleeders" or "air bleeders" (avoid the push-button type bleeders)
http://www.google.fr/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=%22fork%20bleeders%22&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi 

As the orifice is quite small, you might need more than one per driver. Also, unlike the tape, the cover is hard this time, so I would order 8 just to be sure, in which case its worth searching for a good price.
 
Decide how many air bleeders you need, then drill a corresponding number of holes through the cover, centered in the areas of the cover that close off the openings in the driver basket. The diameter of the holes must be slightly smaller than the diameter of the threaded end of the air bleeder body. Install the air bleeder body, applying pressure as it is turned, thus creating threads in the cover; do not over tighten (just snug is enough). Remove the air bleeder body. Put a drop of Locktite Red or Blue (permanent and semi-permanent) on the threads of the air bleeder body and reinstall it; do not over tighten, the Locktite will create the necessary seal.
 
Install air bleeder adjustment screw. 
  
Final assembly: 
 
Place the drivers you will be mounting in the horn face down. Using RTV silicone, lay a neat bead around each opening in the baskets, leaving at least a half inch margin (the silicone will squish out, and you don't want it dripping down on the driver cones). Immediately place covers over backs of drivers and do not touch them for 24 hours. If in the future it becomes necessary to remove the covers from the baskets, the silicone bond is easily broken, and can be easily removed from the basket.
 
Install the hardwood ring so that it holds the chamber cover in place, and secure its position to the magnet using the hose clamp.
 
Mount drivers with covers to horns. You may want to make some tabs from metal that fit under the mounting bolts heads and reach out to further secure the cover.
 
The cover could have been made to fit under the bolts, but this would require some planning and the use of fairly thick metal sleeves in the holes of the cover. I do not like this approach, as I think it would unnecessarily stress the cover. In fact, given the rigidity of the assembly (basket and cover), I don't think anything more than the hardwood ring is necessary.
 
Tune resonance by adjusting the bleeder screws. Once desired resonance is found, remove screws, carefully noting the number of turns. Apply a thin coating of silicone to the threads of each bleeder screw, and reinstall them to their pervious depth by counting the number of turns. Allow silicone to set. Blow through the hole to verify that it was not blocked by silicone.

Alternatively you could lock the screws whith a small drop of super glue, or with enamel (non-water-based) paint. If using Locktite, make sure its the low-strength purple stuff, and use only a very small amount around the screw after it is installed and adjusted (do not apply it deep down into the threads).

jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
08-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 218
Post ID: 14373
Reply to: 14370
What am I missing?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
First question:

With the 1.5 gallon rear chamber, the resonance is 700Hz
With the basket sealed by tape (very small rear chamber), the resonance is 49Hz
 
Assuming there was not a typographical error, from this we can conclude:
 
1) Larger rear chamber volume = Higher resonance
2) Smaller rear chamber volume = Lower resonance

3) With the 5 small holes punched through the tape, effectively increasing the rear chamber volume, the resonance drops to 42Hz.
 
Only number 3 makes sense to me.
 
What am I missing?

Yes, to assume that I had no typographical errors was too big load to care. I have no idea where the 700Hz came from –we are light miles away from those frequencies. The numbers are following:

Vitavox 15/40 in open air – 50Hz
Vitavox 15/40 loaded in my horn with open back – 24.3Hz
Vitavox 15/40 loaded in my horn with 1.5 gallon back chamber – 24.7Hz
Vitavox 15/40 loaded in my horn with gasket sealed with tape– 49Hz
Vitavox 15/40 loaded in my horn with gasket sealed with tape and a few holed made – 42Hz

The rule no one changed:

 
1) Larger rear chamber volume = Lower resonance
2) Smaller rear chamber volume = Higher resonance


 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Second question:
 
In the image showing the taped basket, the device on the top of the stack appears to be a frequency generator. If so, can you confirm that the signal is routed through, and amplified by the table radio? This would seem logical.
 
The reason I ask: I have always been afraid to rout a signal from the generator into either my pre-amp or directly to my power amps. Doing so would be very convenient, but I did not want to risk damage to the equipment, as the output voltage of the generator measures significantly more than a typical source component.

Is there a safe way to rout a signal from this type of generator, directly into a pre-amp? If not, then into a power amp?

I am not sure why you worry. All generators have adjustable output. I use very cheap generator and even it has a gain control. I usually output around 1V. Depending of amplification of your power amp. BTW, to measure Fs if your generator has powerful output then you can drive a driver from it directly. You will not be able to measure current but you will be fine to measure voltage as generators usually have about 50R output impedance. I do not like to drive directly from a generator as generator might be direct coupled and run small DC in output - it might be not good for Alnico drivers. So, I use a small cheap amp…. Presuming that it has no DC in output….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 219
Post ID: 14374
Reply to: 14372
How to do my back chamber.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Wow, Jessie, thanks for the detail deals of your idea. I have spent last evening to contemplate many possible design configurations and I desired to discard all my former ides of metal fine-tuning, even my machinist in on standby expecting my order.

I just will not have space to put in there any maniacal devise as the volume that I need to be left will be too small.  So, I decided to do what I did with upperbass horn - to displace the volume with non-compressible foam. Here is a close to final design that I will order my carpenter to render.

Midbass_progress_Back_Chamber.GIF

The back chamber will be 3 layers of ¾ Baltic Birch, glued together. On a back it will be a door that will be hold by 12 studs, driven with epoxy into the plywood. The door will be sitting on a think cork gasket. The space in the back chamber will be filed with non-compressible foam. The driver will be installed, covered, the foam spayed. Then, what the foam expands and solidify the foe will be cut by knife in order to hit the target resonance frequency. I will be using one of those

http://greatstuff.dow.com/

I might also will glue piece of fabric on the basket of the driver, I do not know and I am still contemplating  to do it or not.

Now the controversy.  The method I described above is wonderful – it is super cheap but very effective and very accurate. However, all of those Polyurethane foam sealant let go with time, the foam juts is losing density after years.  It is valid argument and it is true. BUT I did check the back chamber tuning of my upperbass horn last week. It did not move for a single Hz after 9 years. So, I figured that the problem might be more theoretical in nature.

BTW, my carpenter pitched me an idea to fill the back chamber with sand. I do not hate the idea and kind of thinking about it.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 220
Post ID: 14375
Reply to: 14374
Compressibility of rear chamber "stuffing"
fiogf49gjkf0d
I didn't know rigid (hard) foam was available in a spray can.

Be careful; if you're using proper rigid foam, it expands with great force and would likely push through any tape protecting the cone of the driver.

However, the only really rigid foam I know of is a 2-part product that must be mixed in proper proportions. If high density is desired, the reaction must take place in a confining (volume-limiting) and very strong container.

http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
08-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 221
Post ID: 14376
Reply to: 14375
Babysitting the foam
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
I didn't know rigid (hard) foam was available in a spray can.

Be careful; if you're using proper rigid foam, it expands with great force and would likely push through any tape protecting the cone of the driver.

However, the only really rigid foam I know of is a 2-part product that must be mixed in proper proportions. If high density is desired, the reaction must take place in a confining (volume-limiting) and very strong container.

http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html

Yes, I know it and I played a lot with heard foams. I think is the key is to know your foam and to know this particular brand expends. What I usually do is cover the driver with hard paper, spray the foam and while the foam is expending I babysit the driver, looking if the foam goes to driver too much and remove the foam with stick. It is messy like hell but it last 5-10 minutes no more. Then when the foam solidifies I cut it accurately with a sharp knife.  
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 222
Post ID: 14377
Reply to: 14367
I hope that this week the second horn will be complete, it is alredy glued.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Midbass_progress_75.JPG

Midbass_progress_76.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2010 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 223
Post ID: 14378
Reply to: 13597
Writing midbass-horn encyclopedia....
fiogf49gjkf0d
I just wish before I start my project I read a few detail descriptions of the similar projects. Unfortunately they do not exist and I well understand that my project is in away an exemplary for the horn-minded people. All midbass horn are different and when I say exemplary I do not mean the my horn is “better” (sane people understand it) but I feel that my approach of thinking about the midbass-horn, visualize different aspects of construction, usage, operation etc and then render the actions in accordance to the visualized idea is very exemplary approach and I hope I will bring positive results.

Playing 3 days with the first unfinished horn in test configuration I discovered a few interesting monuments that I never heard anyone talked. I would like to share one of them  and some of you will get it. I have received a few emails from different people (some of them I do not even know) who told me that my projects encourage them to think about this own midbass horns. Good, the continuation of this post is for you, my recipients.

Playing with driver impedance I come across to a very interesting observation. Let pretend that you play a normal some kind of horn with a lot of air in it. The air drives the driver impedance down and the horns have impedance pick under the horn rate. There are plenty of horns like this out there; did you even try to EQ them? When you add to such a bass horn extra 10Hz below then the horn turns to sound very bad. Sure, the bass the driver move more, pumping more pressure but the horn mouth cut it off.  At the result the horn gets choked with bass. However, as soon the driver resonance kills the throat reactance the horn got miraculously equalizeable!!! The impedance-balanced horn does comply with  bass boost  lower than the horn rate!!!

CatInCiti.jpg

Now, here is a kinky part. Back to my photography time we use “forced development”. We took a film with excessive amount of silver, the film with sensitivity let say 400ASA. Then we expose it as it was let say 2000ASA and developed it as it was 2000ASA. What is to do the same trick with horn? Let take my horn of 42Hz and to boost 10Hz but then to set the resonance frequency at 32Hz or somewhere between 32Hz and 42Hz. At this point I know it works but I need to do very accurate assessment of sound while the horn does it. I am not familiar with the sound of my horn at this point and my horns are not set at this point to be a reference tool. As time come I will try to experiment with this and post my observation about sonic consequences. It is “works” it might open a new chapter in midbass horns.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 224
Post ID: 14379
Reply to: 14375
Foam Expansion
fiogf49gjkf0d
Jessie is correct about the forcefulness of the expansion of many over-the-counter foams, like generic Great Stuff from Home Depot, etc.  In fact, many homebuilders were having problems with the foam they put around door and window frames, etc. during construction; the foam was expanding to the extent that it forced the door and window jambs/frames so out of shape that they would not work properly when the time came.  This led to the development of "controled expansion" foams, by Hilte and others (perhaps Great Stuff, too, by now...).  These and similar foams do not "force" their way but only expand where the going is easy.

I am not sure what you mean by "rigid" foam.  Even the controlled expansion foams are probably rigid enough for use in a back chamber, once they have set up, and they are also far more "predictable" in terms of which space they will occupy and which space they will let be.

Paul S
09-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 225
Post ID: 14380
Reply to: 14379
Bite into it
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul S wrote:

"...I am not sure what you mean by "rigid" foam..."

By rigid I mean brittle; foam that does not bend, but breaks with a loud snapping "pop". Rigid foam urethane does not rebound at all after compression... In fact there is no compression unless you consider crushing to be compression; given sufficient force (a lot) it can be crushed, but the destroyed cells will not rebound at all.

This foam (see previous post) was developed for industrial pattern making where stability and consistency of density are the most critical properties. In lower densities, as would be the case if pouring it into a rear chamber with cover removed, it is very easy to cut or abrade.

Cut it with a serrated blade for best control; abrade it with a half-round Surform or "cheese grater" file (just the blade without the handle) about $3 at Home Depot etc.
http://cpc.farnell.com/productimages/farnell/standard/42352550.jpg
Avoid the flat-section blades.

Again, I'm not familiar with all spray can foams; some may be rigid. Before committing to any of them for use in back-filling a rear chamber, I'd do a rebound test by simply biting into a sample. If there were any evidence of rebound, I would not use it, as its presence would somewhat cancel out the investment made to ensure rigidity of the rear chamber walls.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
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