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  »  New  Another problem in my new listening room...  Bass Trap...  Analog Playback Forum     1  24411  08-24-2010
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04-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 26
Post ID: 13318
Reply to: 13317
You Will Have to Experiment...
fiogf49gjkf0d

Vibrating floors are a two-way street, eating certain enery and pumping back/increasing other energy, if only as the "in the shadow" effect.  I would not bother to try to math/model it when emperical testing will tell me anything I want to know about it.  But it certainly warrants investigation, and I would be surprised to learn that you are unable to discern differences in the floor tension, once you are operating FR.  If you are still unable to tell a difference, there may be some other issues to attend to prior to attacking the floor.

Generally, one places jacks under beams that run perpendicular to floor joists, for a +/- "whole floor" strengthening aproach.  However, Jessie is correct in saying that a jack can also act as a ground path, so placing them under a given spot can have a particular effect.

Romy, if you ever said whether the joists below your listening room are already insulated and/or sheetrocked/plastered, then I forget.  However, you might want to re-visit what has already been submitted on this, since there are some good ideas there, already.

Getting the floor tight is basically just another way of getting control over one more variable; and who wants more variables in the quest for decent LF?   Tightening/grounding the floors should make it easier to set up and dial in your LF.  And unless your new house is freakishly overbuilt, it will also ensure that your 1,500 pounds of equipment do not permanently deflect your listening room floor joists, causing poor little Koshka to roll down into the new trough when she falls asleep listening to music.

The only case I could imagine where a grounded floor would not not outperform a pumping floor is....  OK, I can't think of a legitimate case, but I could imagine a case where spurious gain at some room resonance mode was somehow found to be "desirable" in augmenting a particular system deficiency.  However, I might as well add here that I do not hold the view that one way is as good as another to damp peaks and fill in troughs for a flat chart.

Generally, I think it is good to trim back from too much energy.  What a nice "problem" to have!  Still, I generally don't like, and I generally avoid, weird peaks.


Best regards,
Paul S

04-20-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Albert
Perth, Australia
Posts 8
Joined on 02-05-2010

Post #: 27
Post ID: 13319
Reply to: 13317
Adjustable Hydrolic Dampening?
fiogf49gjkf0d
A possible solution for tuning your floor.
Adjustable Hydrolic Floor Dampner.JPG

If you were commited to it it would not be expensive to implement it.

Probebrly run it with oil. The piston and bore set up could be about 100mm diameter and about the same high. The whole set up could sit on a concrete pileon about 150mm diameter cast inside of a carboard tube (are they called sono tubes in US?) The pilon would be anchered to the basement floor and the piston set up anchered to the pileon. closing the valve completely would lock the floor to the basement floor. as you open it you you are adjusting the dampening. The valve can be adjusted from an extension spindle  through the floor and the valve could be positioned a distence from the pileon. you would then have control of the floors movement and it could be adjusted on the fly in the room. you could implement as many as you like and adjust them independantky orhave them all running through one valve. the floor is truley anchered and adjustable.

this set up could hold many tonnes and would never require maintence. I could design and draw what working drwings you need and you could mail to a local machine shop.

Alternativle would heavey rugs or heavy ornamants placed around the room not provide sufficient ability to tune floor?? Atractive rugs with a heavy vinyl backing. You could experament with moving around some sand bags to see if any of this is veasable.

The ULF solution you mentioned would be very, very interesting to see come into reality.




Albert
04-20-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 13325
Reply to: 13319
Passive vs. Active flooring.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Albert,
 
the Adjustable Hydraulic Dampening might be effective if the vibration of floor is the factor.  This is exactly what I question as I do not feel that the floor vibration is a problem. Considering the length of the waves and the amplitude of the floor vibration I think Sound do not even “see” the fact that floor vibrates, of even if it sees it then the impact most likely negligible. What I think  is more important in suspended floor is not the vibration but the mass-reflection. Somebody at this site reported that he used concrete panels under suspended floors and the result was positive. Still, it shall be a degree of “positiveness”. What I mean is the fact the any concert hall where a concrete slab was introduced made musicians to complain that Sound turned bad and they can’t hear each other. So, I presume that it needs to be a degree how much bouncing foundation sound might have to be interesting.

I do agree that the idea of “Active Flooring” that I proposed above is a promising, in fact I was proposed it before in the Real Estate thread.  The  “Active Flooring Channel” might not only address the problem with floor but fill the necessary ULF space of the house (at ULF the wooden floor is virtually transparent). I might use some pro sealed bass modules with 1kW-2kW amplification and 4th other at let say 25Hz. Or I can put a pair of my Fane 24” drivers with 150W-200W amp in the basement under the music room. Playing with crossover point and amplitude of the channel I think it might be possible to modulate many interesting results that would be not abatable with solid “passive” floor.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-20-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 13326
Reply to: 13305
The new room, the very first listening.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Connected today Melquiades and Macondo in new room. Macondo uses drivers as they are – no time or axis aliments of any kind yet, no Insertion Channels, no level calibration by channels. I just in-phase the channels and sat to listen, to see what happen.  The main observation that I made is that the room is more capable then I even thought. Currently the speakers are 12.5 feet apart and I put my listing chair 10 feet apart. The Macondo is pointed just behind the shoulders – my regular configuration. The presentation is fine but with no critical drama of imaging. So, I did my Traveling trick that I stolen from Horowitz – I put under the legs of my chair the large “easy sliders” (over the carpet), closed my eyes and begun to travel around the room using my feet for proportion. After a while I have found a perfect spot where the center image is about to disintegrate but the “side” still hold it, the stage just begin to curve right in the way how I need it but with no deformity. I open my eyes – holey shit – I was 7 feet away from speakers! I looked back and I realized that I have a half of the room behind me. So, if I would like to sit 10 feet away then I would need to put my speakers 15-17 feet from each other? That would be VERY scare and VERY critical configuration, I doubt that it will work but I will try. Mind you that that all is with absolutely mis-aliened speakers and with left channel running from Radio Shake cable (I do not have PAD of this length.

There are many other very pleasant surprises in this room. It looks like the Melquiades gain is enough for this room. It also looks like Milq’s LF MIGHT have enough power for this room (I cross my fingers and hope but I doubt). The sound at my second listing spot (couch on the image above) is VERY good and balanced relative to the sweat spot my toeing works very well for this location. There were many other good things – in fact I did not see any symptoms that would bother me. The beginning is very good. I just wish to move Macondo would be easier….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-21-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 13331
Reply to: 13326
The 14.5 foot.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I was moving today my speakers back and forth and fine that the 14.5 foot is the most suitable distance between the speakers for my room. To get more precise positioning I would need to get better sound, so I will take my PP2000 back and will drive everything from it. I do not have that “imaging magic” as I had it in my old room but you do not get it on the second day with semi-spontaneous playback setup. I need to bring better power to my room as it is absolutely horrible…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 13332
Reply to: 13331
Again…
fiogf49gjkf0d
Again, moving the speakers last night I felt that I really would like to move the speakers closer to the mid of the room – the further the speakers from the back wall the more interesting sound. There is another “again” in what I felt last night. I truly would like to have my LF channels on the extreme right and left of Macondo‘s MF island. The problem is that in this room if the Macondo MF are sitting closer to the mid of the room then the  right/left from them would not be the best place for LF section as they would not load the room properly from there.  The source-wise it is the best place for imaging but the loading-wise is very much not the best. Sucks, I need to think how to optimize it.

If I would not peruse the midbass horn then it would be a good idea to separate LF section of two channels –Upper LF and Lower LF. Then the lower LF would go to the corner of the room where the bass is the best but the Upper LF would sit on the Macondo right/left, stretching the presentation wider and more “dramatic”. It might be a chance if I do not go for midbass horns but at this point I do not consider the 2 tier LF section.

There is an option however. The Macondo/Milq LF channel does surprisingly good in the new room. It might be that I will be able to go away with just Milq LF amp – that would be very nice. I will know certainly what I start to do some measurements and it is very possible that I would need just a few DBs. So, I was thinking that I might try to make another LF section, identical to what I have but to install that new LF section at the right/left position from the Macondo MF horns to be complimentary to the bass arrays. That reminds to be a possibility,

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
msaudio
Posts 45
Joined on 12-09-2009

Post #: 32
Post ID: 13333
Reply to: 13332
Romy's new Playground
fiogf49gjkf0d

I thought the closer you got to the corners of the room the more floor support you would have in a given room, with sub flooring, your floor joists are going into blocks on the edge of your house so that would be the most support for Macondos, weight. But you want to go away from walls, closer to the center of room, with less support for better presentation. I like the idea of one more bass module for each side. Do you mean twin towers on each side?   I had hoped that in the future you would build large horns for the bottom end of your system, since you have your own place and more room.  We are all looking forward to future projects when you have the time. 

04-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 13334
Reply to: 13333
So far it has to do nothing with floor.
fiogf49gjkf0d
msaudio,

again, moving the speakers across the room of cause changes the “floor support” but there are way too different influences to sound while speakers moves then the floor’s influence. In fact at this point I absolutely discard floor contribution. I move speakers, I see how they interact with room and with themselves but I do not even thinking or care about floor. I would say with moving of speaker a feet away the influence of floor to sound would be changing no more than a fraction of 1% of the total sound change. How one can interpret it?  I think the right way to do it is to found right configuration of the speakers in the room without any regards to floor and THEN, ONLY THEN, to experiment with floor and to see how it would change sound. This would give some methodological sanity in my view.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 13335
Reply to: 13332
A phenomenal encouragement!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Living for over a month without any meaningful playback I kind of begin to miss it but today I had something very special. I stopped by to my local NH guy. He had some changed in playback, not all that I like but still generally positive. We listened a few pieces, it was OK in my view but not what I felt was “right” and had a few problems. Then I pulled some of my “real music” CDs and we played it. Holly shit. Totally out of blue the playback threw the presentation that I can’t name with anything else then stunning. It was not just good sound but it was the sound that very few audio people ever experience from playback over entire live. It was my music and I know the recording very well. My own playback did this performance VERY impressive but I never had it like this.  I always felt that that recording can’t play better but this presentation took it at totally new level. I truly envy to THIS presentation, particularly become it how I would like my playback to present events. It kind of reminds me what I am doing and reinforced me that I am in very right direction (looking at the lissome of that NH installation).

This gave me a great encouragement and dive some food for thought about critical positioning. I am very excited and will try some things I meant to try with new bold enthusiasm.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Markus
Posts 68
Joined on 03-07-2007

Post #: 35
Post ID: 13336
Reply to: 13335
For the uninitiated ...
fiogf49gjkf0d
what's an NH guy? A neighbour from New Hampshire?
04-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
KLegind
Posts 34
Joined on 04-03-2008

Post #: 36
Post ID: 13337
Reply to: 13335
NH guy
fiogf49gjkf0d
I second that. Please tell us about the design decisions and topologies that made this presentation possible. I guess it has very much to do with room and placement in room.

Kindly
Kris
04-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 37
Post ID: 13340
Reply to: 13337
Room
fiogf49gjkf0d
Please tell us about the design decisions and topologies that made this presentation possible.


http://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0209/aachapter112.htm
04-24-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 13347
Reply to: 13337
Design decisions and topologies….
fiogf49gjkf0d
 KLegind wrote:
I second that. Please tell us about the design decisions and topologies that made this presentation possible. I guess it has very much to do with room and placement in room.
Unfortunately the Bill article, well like his articles do not expended into design decisions and topologies.  In my view the single greatest designed decisions that Bill has in his playback is a pair of very interestingly organized in the room 50 Hz hyperbolic horns. It is not that I absolutely agree with this organization but with SOME recordings the presentation is just fantastic.

Bills_Room.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-24-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 13348
Reply to: 13331
The first base is done
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think the first basic positioning for Macondo is found. The MF island is well extended in the room – the mouth of the Upperbass is at 90 from the back wall. The playback dose quite well and do demonstrate a lot of potentials to take is further.  Now I know where strategically the speaker will be and what will be the listening distance, so I might align the driver and start to do the measurements.

Room_Extended_MF_In_Room.jpg

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 40
Post ID: 13349
Reply to: 13347
Reentry time alignment.
fiogf49gjkf0d
What in Bill’s configuration is very interesting is how to figure out about the diver’s time aliments. The Midbass is time-aligned with MF but it aligned by min distance, I am sure. Yes, the leading edge of the Midbass arrives to listed sit the same time, but there is some kink in it. The Midbass des not soot to listener directly from a short distance but bounce from back wall, picking up some maturity. So, how to determine what would be the time synchronization - by leading edge of by the room reentry?  As you can saw in the illustration my own midbass will use the same maturation concept (read about bass maturation in the Real Estate thread) and I wonder how to alight it. I do not have an answer and I would like to spend a few hours with TRA and to measure where will be the right arriving point.  It is very possible that it will be smeared in time but I have no verification for now and I doubt that anybody beside me will clear this notion.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 41
Post ID: 13355
Reply to: 13349
Thoughts on alignment: Direct vs Reflected mid-bass
fiogf49gjkf0d
Facing similar issues, until confirmed or disproved by experimentation, the following represents my view:

Situation 1):
Mid-bass horns aimed generally TOWARD listener's ears:
Alignment of the DIRECT OUTPUT of the horn for time arrival to listening point should take precedence.

Situation 2):
Mid-bass horns aimed clearly AWAY from listener's ears: 
Alignment of the 1st REFLECTED OUTPUT of the horn for time arrival to listening point should take precedence.

I would interpret Bill's installation as belonging to Situation 1.

I would interpret Romy's proposed installation (mid-bass horns mounted above and behind listener) as belonging to "Situation 1.25" (leaning more toward Situation 1).

In the event Situation 1 does not allow the bass to mature before reaching the listener's ear (can we say that this is likely the case in all but really huge rooms?), it would seem desirable to keep that immature bass away from the listener, and therefore Situation 2 may be the better alternative.

Assuming situation 2 is possible, receiving mid-bass primarily as reflected sound, one would have to take into account the reflected path of that sound, and how it describes the mid-bass part of the image, relative to the MF/HF part of the image; for example, the reflected mid-bass may very well originate on the left, but reach the listener's ear from the right.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
04-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 13356
Reply to: 13355
The peculiarity of time alignment.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Assuming situation 2 is possible, receiving mid-bass primarily as reflected sound, one would have to take into account the reflected path of that sound, and how it describes the mid-bass part of the image, relative to the MF/HF part of the image; for example, the reflected mid-bass may very well originate on the left, but reach the listener's ear from the right.

I less care about direct listening left/right consequences. At I am more interested to learn about alignment. You said “take into account the reflected path” but will it be “taken into account” during the actual measurement? That is what very interesting. In midbass the wavelength is very long and it is very difficult to get “true” delay. For instance if I bring my RTA to the Bill’s room I doubt that I would be able to measure a proper alignment – he has no room for it. Somebody with true large room, I would estimate 2000 need to make this experiment once and for all, discovering how to alight the bounced wave. I am sure there a million variations to the “right” answer. The angle of the horn axis, the type and the proximity of the low pass filter on the midbass hot, the reflective characteristic of the bouncing wall and few others, so, I guess in some cases the practicality of direct midbass vs. reflected midbass alignment might be negligible or near negligible, but I do not know for sure. I know for sure that what we go over the pain or making, installing and using a proper midbass horn then we have no strength left to question the peculiarity of time alignment

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 43
Post ID: 13357
Reply to: 13356
Mid bass horn.
fiogf49gjkf0d
The actual first reflection of my horn is not from the side wall or floor but from the back wall. The horn is actually against the side wall and floor which gives it the configuration of a quarter horn with the side wall and floor acting as an extension of the horn itself, thus no first reflection. This allows the horn to reach deeper for its actual length and mouth, while cutting off the two most damaging first reflections. The back walls are lined with RPG diffusers which also have built-in absorption down to about 100 Hz., thus partially removing this reflection also. Directly over my head is a cage for an Electrohome 9500 LC projector with sound absorbing material which also mitigates the first reflection from the ceiling. Thus there shouldn't be much of a bounce wave compared to the direct sound for the listener.
04-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 13358
Reply to: 13357
Guess is only a guess…
fiogf49gjkf0d
Bill, first reflection of your horn might be from the back wall but when you are talking about reflection you imply HF that propagates according to the rules of transverse waves. The LF waver act more like pressure (longitudinal) wave and they do not have definitive first reflection in your case. The first reflection is more applicable to the HF content of your horn.

I personally feel that the reentry reflections need to be discarded and the shortest distance is the only something the can be taken unit alignment configuration. Still I feel that in case of horns the reentry reflections might smear a LOT of the alignment results. The only objective way to answer this question is to do an actual measurement in a location. So, my guess is only a guess, who know how it will be in real situation.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 13359
Reply to: 13348
What I do not like in my current Sound.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Without mentioning the reasons here are a few pointers:

1)      There is no proper  tone
2)      Horizontal imaging is less refined then I would like it to be.
3)      Sound is not wet enough.
4)      At high volumes room can’t dissipate HF
5)      Sound does not have uniformed density and more reminds a dug and raked backyard.
6)      Strenuous and laborious presentation.
7)      Playback does not sound with the room but in the room.

The CaT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 13360
Reply to: 13266
Do you know who produces this wall treatment?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Wall_Treatment_1.jpg




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Lbjefferies7
Southern California
Posts 49
Joined on 01-11-2008

Post #: 47
Post ID: 13361
Reply to: 13360
George Massenburg's Diffusion
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://www.blackbirdstudio.com/#/studios/

That is Massenburg's Studio C.  I can't find the article where I first read about this room, but, it is simply staggering.  It's all 1 inch pieces of MDF and no two sticks are the same length.  It took something like 1400 sheets of the stuff!  I am looking into room treatments myself as my new dauntingly small room is finally forcing me to deal with such things.  This, is purely amazing.  I'd love to hear what it does.

LBJ


I'm not interested in having an orchestra sound like itself. I want it to sound like the composer. Leonard Bernstein
04-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 48
Post ID: 13362
Reply to: 13361
Diffusors
fiogf49gjkf0d
Try RPG Diffusors

Bill Gaw
04-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 49
Post ID: 13363
Reply to: 13362
Diffuse injection
fiogf49gjkf0d
Try diffuse injection, like the Reds lying on the floor pointing upwards, or diffusely radiating speakers like Goebel.
04-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 50
Post ID: 13364
Reply to: 13359
Let analyse why it so
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, you said there is no proper tone. In your old system/room setup you were very close to the back wall, but now it is far behind you. I'm probably wrong, but I thinkyou don't have proper sound in the mid-upperbass with this configuration which is responsible for loosing the "proper" tonal pressure. Generally it is very complicated and i can't give you any recomendations but in my opinion you must find where is the optimal listening position and to set the acoustic system in context of this zone and in the same time you must find a way how to excite your room to play with Macondo...


"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
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