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Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» New superlative horn build - ESD acoustic (93 posts, 5 pages)

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04-01-2019

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	76
Post ID:	25341
Reply to:	25340

Looking forward to actions and not words

It is unreasonable to expect "immediate gratification", but I will be watching to see if there will be more interest in sound than in technology coming in the near future. To be honest, the advantages of carbon fiber or high BL are FAR BELOW the correct acoustic geometry. Bruce Edgar understood geometry. If he is still consulting, I am sure that he has a top 10 list of things that he would not have done with your flagship.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

04-01-2019

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jackydai
Posts 8
Joined on 06-14-2018

Post #:	77
Post ID:	25342
Reply to:	25341

Geometry

I’m glad you talk about geometry, but to respond to this I have to refer to other brands. I will only talk about facts and hope it’s not offending anybody.

My basic point is: the flare rate has to be coherent right from the entrance of phase plugs. In this sense, not even Bruce and Sam did it right, I’m afraid to say. In many cases the driver and the horn are designed by different teams and the flare rate within the phase plug, the flare rate from the exit of phase plug to the exit of the driver(the throat), and the flare rate of the horn are all not the same. In another word, most of the horn units you have listened to are not following their own flare rate FROM THE START.

TAD 4001&4003 are back firing drivers, where the throat pass through the center pole, and they narrow the throat flare rate for better magnetic transmission(seems like their engineers don’t agree with you on the importance of magnetic density). That’s one thing. Second is the exit of phase plug has a sharp shift of angle entering the throat area, not a smooth connection. Third is they use rectangular horns.

Cessaro uses TAD units and changes to round horn, but 1.the problem within the driver is still 2. The entrance of Cessaro horn is bigger than the exit of TAD driver -I’m not sure how come they did not think about it.

ALE use front firing drivers, where they use bullet phase plugs. They have very high compression ratio and the sound only pass through dots at the outer ring of diaphragms, which is frequency selective at the first place. The flare rate is changing vastly at different stages too. To compensate for small throat exit they also increase the flare rate of the horn greatly for the first few inches.

Avant-garde does not use compression drivers and uses ABS plastic horns. If you doubt the importance of material please put your hands on an Avant-garde horn when it’s playing and feel the resonance.

These should cover most of the problems current horn units are encountering. We did some of the same things too, but after I become more familiar with Bruce’s and Sam’s knowledges I started to combine the design of horn and driver together. Our geometry as of today features:

1. Round horns only;2. The flare rates in the phase plug slits, throat and horn are coherent;3. The exit of phase plug connect smoothly to the throat;4. The exiting wave front of phase plug is not planar wave front but a slightly curved one which match the supposed waved front of the horn.

As for the flare rate itself, our sub-bass-horn is hyperbolic, bass-horn is exponential, mid-range is tractrix, tweeter is tractrix, and super tweeter is a new kind. Those have been set by Bruce Edgar from the beginning and has remained unchanged, so I’m not sure what are the 10 things you think Bruce wouldn’t do. Perhaps you can list them here and i’ll talk with Bruce on them. Thanks.

I know Romy has some different opinions on the flare rate Bruce has set. I’d be neutral on that, but I can only say this: at least they are true tractrix/exponential/hyperbolic all the way through. Many other impressions on different kinds of horns, I’m sorry to say, are highly influenced by the altered flare rate from the start and thus should not be qualified reference.

04-01-2019

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	78
Post ID:	25343
Reply to:	25342

Ok, I will bite.

jackydai wrote:
My basic point is: the flare rate has to be coherent right from the entrance of phase plugs. In this sense, not even Bruce and Sam did it right, I’m afraid to say. In many cases the driver and the horn are designed by different teams and the flare rate within the phase plug, the flare rate from the exit of phase plug to the exit of the driver(the throat), and the flare rate of the horn are all not the same. In another word, most of the horn units you have listened to are not following their own flare rate FROM THE START.

Yes, it is very accurate and whoever told you about it was correct. There is however a catch in this. The importance of proper, continuing exponential geometry from very start is critical from geometrical narrative but 1) hardly provable 2) have dubious practical implication. The “hardly provable” derives from the fact that it is VERY hard to equate a continuing exponential when pressure is coming over the phase plug, partially for short wavelength, it is all done by approximation anyhow. The dubious practical implication derives from the fact that we bring very valid reasoning regarding the “proper opening flare” but you have absolutely no auditable reference how deviations from those perfect opening impact sound. So, even I do agree that a perfect flare rate from very beginning is a good thing to have but I refuse to accept that having that perfect flare rate (or clamming it) serves as some kind of assurance for better result.

jackydai wrote:
TAD 4001&4003 …. Cessaro uses TAD units and changes to round horn, …the problem within the driver is still ….

This is all fine. The TADs used in zillion other applications, can provide you subjective description how TADs sound and what specifically you do not like in TADs sound. I do not need a lecture of geometry, tell me about sound regardless of the application.

jackydai wrote:
ALE use front firing drivers, where they use bullet phase plugs. They have very high compression ratio and the sound only pass through dots at the outer ring of diaphragms, which is frequency selective at the first place. The flare rate is changing vastly at different stages too. To compensate for small throat exit they also increase the flare rate of the horn greatly for the first few inches.

Ok, and how ALE sound to you and what in your view need to be doe to make ALE to sound better?

jackydai wrote:
Avant-garde does not use compression drivers and uses ABS plastic horns. If you doubt the importance of material please put your hands on an Avant-garde horn when it’s playing and feel the resonance.

First of all Avant-garde does use the compression drivers and if you feel that they do not then you have very limited understanding what compression drivers are. Second, can you please describe how the resonances on the Avantgarde horns sound to you. You do not need to feel the resonance putting hands on an Avantgarde horn. I am taking you sitting in listening chair, can you blindly identify that it was playing ABS vs wooden horn in case the same driver was identically loaded. If so, can you, please give a specific sonic characteristic, preferably in context of a specific musical work?

jackydai wrote:
I know Romy has some different opinions on the flare rate Bruce has set. I’d be neutral on that, but I can only say this: at least they are true tractrix/exponential/hyperbolic all the way through.

You should be neutral because you have no idea about my opinion on flare rates. BTW, I have no problem with your progressing rise of flare rate. We however do not build in audio flare rates, we build sound. What you do with whatever rate you use is the only thing that matter.

jackydai wrote:
Many other impressions on different kinds of horns, I’m sorry to say, are highly influenced by the altered flare rate from the start and thus should not be qualified reference.

Oh, come on, stop sucking you own dick. Look at the images of the installation you made. Your perfect hyperbolic flare was shooting into the walls from a distance of a few inches. In that configuration your resonance frequency would be good 20-25hz off and your throat reactance will make the horn to sound as it was a sewerage pipe. You bass horn has a permeant and very harmonic resonant chamber in the curve and you come in here and sing the songs about the “true hyperbolic all the way through”. Get life, Jacky, or whatever your name is.

PS: I would recommend you let you father read your comments before you post them here. Otherwise you will be forced to blame another “unsubordinated employee”.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-02-2019

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jackydai
Posts 8
Joined on 06-14-2018

Post #:	79
Post ID:	25344
Reply to:	25343

Fine

Romy, I’m disappointed to see you confront your own belief just to win a debate. It is not my intention to convince you, but if you, after all these years of research on horn flares, think that a twisted flare rate at the begining might just have some good magic on the sound, what can I say? You asked me about my views on the sound of other units, but there are two reasons I’m not going to answer you: 1.I’m not going to wrestle with you in a mudground of subjectivity, which yield no results at the end; 2.It’s not proper for me, a manufacturer, to say these. That’s why in my last post I said I only talked about facts. Besides, if you care so much about sound, why have you been making so many judgements about ESD products before actually hearing to them? As for the sub-bass-horn facing the walls, like I said we did many things wrong in Munich, and that situation was also due to the small room we got - you can’t expect the host take new comers seriously. They’ve been facing forward on all the following shows. If you really have watched the video and reviews posted you’d be able to see that. You are also implying that I’ve lied about the employee stuff. Well, I think people can easily tell it’s two persons from the level of English writing. You really are good at irritating someone by using some dirty words, but I’m fine with that. Your site your rule. I keep my manners.

04-02-2019

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	80
Post ID:	25345
Reply to:	25344

The Robert Stevenson’s syndrome?

jackydai wrote:
Romy, I’m disappointed to see you confront your own belief just to win a debate. It is not my intention to convince you, but if you, after all these years of research on horn flares, think that a twisted flare rate at the begining might just have some good magic on the sound, what can I say?

I do not think that there are any debates are going on here. I very much agree with you that stepped flare are not good. There are no flares out there with perfect continuing opening, it never existed and no one ever heard it. It is possible that the drivers and horns you do are closer to the non-stepped flare then others. Possible. So, what I ask you to describe the sonic merits of the better flare you suddenly become defensive and feel that I am trying to confront you. Here is a tip for you: if you are not prepared to associate you technical talk with very tangible benefits for listening experience then you are wasting you time to design audio.

jackydai wrote:
You asked me about my views on the sound of other units, but there are two reasons I’m not going to answer you: 1.I’m not going to wrestle with you in a mudground of subjectivity, which yield no results at the end;

I do not remember I asked you your views on the sound of other units, I think it is what you willing to say. I also do not care about “wrestling with you in a mudground of subjectivity”. I was give you an opportunity to demonstrate if you feel any comfort in the realm of subjectivity and it looks like you do not. The irony is that subjectivity is the only objective thing that exists in that whole filed. Bruce for instance can “run his mouth” about all possible technical aspect of horns design but if you dig his deeper then he is very comfortable to associate his “subjectivism” with his theoretical conclusions. The irony is that in his observation there are no subjectivism for the people who have ears and brain able to interpret what the ears heard.

jackydai wrote:
2.It’s not proper for me, a manufacturer, to say these.

Why not. It is not appropriate for me an audio manufacturer to delegate to public hat sonic benefit his product can bring? Well, I am qithe sure you are not right about that.

jackydai wrote:
That’s why in my last post I said I only talked about facts.

The fact of design concepts or the fact of sonic benefits? Do you deny that your design concepts have any sonic benefits? Do you feel that the sonic benefits are not the facts?

jackydai wrote:
Besides, if you care so much about sound, why have you been making so many judgements about ESD products before actually hearing to them?

I do not think I did any judgments about ESD Sound. I was tailing about analyses of design decisions and typical sonic consequences, the same discussion we have all time about new installations. The hearing a playback is completely different matter and it would be completely different things in focus.

jackydai wrote:
As for the sub-bass-horn facing the walls, like I said we did many things wrong in Munich, and that situation was also due to the small room we got - you can’t expect the host take new comers seriously. They’ve been facing forward on all the following shows. If you really have watched the video and reviews posted you’d be able to see that.

I well understand and respect that. I also have much familiar with the subject incorporating a large horn in a room and I am in opposition to large horn to be last channel. I wrote about it in past a lot. You feel that you dealing with “small room” but in my view it is one of the fundamental flows of your system design.

jackydai wrote:
You are also implying that I’ve lied about the employee stuff. Well, I think people can easily tell it’s two persons from the level of English writing. You really are good at irritating someone by using some dirty words, but I’m fine with that. Your site your rule. I keep my manners.

I see the a different level of English writing but I also see the same irritated soil by some imaginary dirty words. Make up you choses, Dr Jekyll and Hyde

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-02-2019

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jackydai
Posts 8
Joined on 06-14-2018

Post #:	81
Post ID:	25346
Reply to:	25345

Regards

Very well then. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to demonstrate, and sorry for not taking the chance. Although I would like to as an audiophile, my responsibility is to the company. I came here to explain things I deem necessary, and that I have done. My apologies if I misunderstood you somewhere. Now pardon my leave, for I have many other things to do. Good day.

04-02-2019

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	82
Post ID:	25347
Reply to:	25346

Ok, take care...

Certainly we have different responsibility. I feel that my responsibility, as the multichannel horn-loading system field’s observer and commentator, is not let any company, any concert or any narrative to highjack the righteousness of “best speaker”. The definitiveness with which you and many other manufactures or DIYers talk about own creation and own ambitions does frequently insult me. Partially it is because I know how inaccurate you are in your righteousness projected to your true audio experience. And partially is because I know that true answers to the audio questions does not located in the field of audio. You are a young man and you might feel that an application of unapplied, superficial notions you have driven in your head makes the world spin but this is a mistake that you will rectify with time. Ask you dad and he will explain you more on the subject. So, please, do build and sell you speakers, be successful and progress yourself and your customers in understanding of how sound might sound. But please, have some humility and do not act that you have “past” anything. People spent years or even whole lives in there things and still they fell that the filed is wide open. You, very much like me and anybody else out there are just very temporary riders of a much larger escalator, the escalator about which you, at your age and you listening experience, not really informed yet.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-02-2019

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jackydai
Posts 8
Joined on 06-14-2018

Post #:	83
Post ID:	25348
Reply to:	25338

Uh I see why I confused you

jackydai wrote:
Well that was my father. We founded the company together - he invests, I researches, mostly. Bruce Edgar and Sam Saye taught me how to design, and we built our first prototype system in California.

I took it for another video. Yes the Munich report one was me. I was thinking about that youTube video of my dad playing music for the reporter on RMAF.

04-02-2019

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jackydai
Posts 8
Joined on 06-14-2018

Post #:	84
Post ID:	25349
Reply to:	25347

Thanks

Thank you for giving advice as an elder, and I respect that. I will introspect myself and keep being humble.

04-04-2019

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	85
Post ID:	25350
Reply to:	25332

I do not know about that.

rowuk wrote:
What can we expect from a 6 figures system?

Rowuk, this is very interesting question and much more complex than you might think. The presumption is that if we look at 1/4 million dollars playback system then we should have out of box reputable sound. I very much challenge that presumption. A reputable Sound of a property of a listener’s own self-development and no external investment or presuemed playback quality can furnish it to a person. A guy from Germany in my listening room a few months ago did experience Sound that might be considered reputable and his reaction was a good illustration of what I say: he was exposed to a result to wish he was not ready yet. If so, then what we expect from a super expensive playback system or in this case: an expensive acoustic system.
Here is what I feel: a 6 figures system should take care about something that 5 figures system could not. It is as simple as it but it is very complex at the same time. The people who design 6 figures systems should (in theory) recognize the complexity of problems and divert expense to address the complexity. Not to build up expense to address some kind of imaginary objectives or to patronize some kind marketing BS but demonstrate advance understanding of the problems and provide the objectively “expensive” solutions to delivery user satisfaction regarding the complex problems. I do feel that if a company does it then they can claim exclusive pricing.

The case to point: Wilson Audio. Discard the smaller Wilsons, then are not good but if you look at the largest Wilson then you will see that somehow they solved a few typical problem of most of box loudspeakers (compression for instance). In my view they can charge 6 figures as they recognize the problem and did spent very tangible efforts to address the problem.

Another care to point: The current company of the thread ESD acoustic. I do not feel that what they do is 6 figures system even if they show to you that all of this is very expensive to make. The Jacky presentation at the last page is very nice, not that I agree with everything but it is a good buttering up of yourself and perspective customers why the ESD should be good and why it should be expensive. What is missing from Jacky presentation is the user benefits and statement that they went into complexity to care about user benefits. What ESD did was investment into manufacturing that they took as is with no nurturing and care about users. In my view the care about end users is the ONLY thing worth to pay more or whatever is asked to be paid.

When Avantgarde introduced their first horn in 1999 they set their most expensive Trio system to be I believe $35K, which skimming the BS mark ups was under 20K retail. That was pretty much how it should cost then because horns is very contrary to popular believe are not expensive acoustic system to make. Avantgarde invested very little into user benefit and they do not be paid more then what it was. ESD did so far kind of the same. They invented a myth of expense and quality but they did not go to complexity of user benefit and I do not need to hear the ESD installation to recognize it.

I do think that ESD MF driver is might be very interesting product. I have no idea if they market it separate and what the price might be. Still, should a system to be 6 figures of it has a potentially interesting MF drivers?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-04-2019

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	86
Post ID:	25351
Reply to:	25350

Catalog of benefits?

If we buy a Rolls Royce, a Ferrari, a Bentley, the manufacturer does not give us a driving course, but they are there when we have problems on the road. They even know what the problems are in advance. They have a towing service. Should the 6 figures system talk to us and the manufacturer?
In the case of Ferrari, not everyone is even allowed to buy a new one. Just imagine a speaker manufacturer that had similar exclusivity.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

04-04-2019

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	87
Post ID:	25352
Reply to:	25351

Do not blame players blame the game.

Rowuk, your association is spot on but there is catch in here. The audio manufactures have no language or expertise to engage their user with explanations of actual or presumed benefits that 6 figures system can do. If you are some kind of let say musician and somebody offer you to buy a vintage clarinet for instance then you for sure will be taken by the history of this woodwind and hear the story how some kind a dynasty of Czech players over the 200 year have been moisturizing this clarinet with the very special saliva produced by the beautiful water that region is famous for. Still, pay attention the dealer that sell this vintage clarinet value is so high because the unique golden tone of the instrument not because the original Budweiser sores water in there. The marketing mambo-jumbo are very secondary and the first is the proof that is in a pudding. The audio manufactures very seldom sell pudding, they sell promises shat vanilla from which the pudding was made was made from flowers that grew in orchids located over 20K feet over see level…. So, I see very seldom audio manufactures, even good one, able to talk about own products intelligently. Do not blame players blame the game.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-07-2019

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Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 178
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #:	88
Post ID:	25353
Reply to:	25352

In what world do you guys live ?

Out of a tiny, tiny minority of people who are into better than standard home sound reproduction only 1% would benefit from what is written on this site. It would be actually suicidal to any manufacturer to follow Romy's axioms , aesthetics and solutions and I'm not surprised that none follows . 99% of "audiophiles" willing to spend real resources are like Josh. He is actually a bright spot in this group since the rest is even less interesting. I have absolutely highest respect to Romy that he is willing to engage in mostly useless activity. Carry on !

04-07-2019

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	89
Post ID:	25354
Reply to:	25353

A better world

Wojtek wrote:
Out of a tiny, tiny minority of people who are into better than standard home sound reproduction only 1% would benefit from what is written on this site. It would be actually suicidal to any manufacturer to follow Romy's axioms , aesthetics and solutions and I'm not surprised that none follows . 99% of "audiophiles" willing to spend real resources are like Josh. He is actually a bright spot in this group since the rest is even less interesting. I have absolutely highest respect to Romy that he is willing to engage in mostly useless activity. Carry on !

In many other disciplines, passion with direction is rewarded. I disagree with the 1%. I would guess that 20 - 30% have the intellectual and emotional capacity.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

04-07-2019

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	90
Post ID:	25355
Reply to:	25354

Followers vs. Drifters vs. "Experts"

Nothing wrong with following along or "copying" "good ideas", as long as the seeker already has an internal "reference" that serves as a sort of navigation system or gyroscope that allows for inevitable "gaps" and differences of one stripe or another. The real "problem", again, is that at some point it becomes pretty lonely, at least in terms of what actually "works" in a given situation. By this I do not mean to ignore or impugn audio fellowship, rather I mean to say, at "the level of this site" people have either "been there and done that" or they must simply (somehow) grasp that "finding the best stuff" is relative - and personal - enough to just about make the notion laughable. And when that happens, the tether to the "industry" is loosed and the seeker is pretty much on his/her own.

Back up the thread, a while back, I remember listening to the ESD presentation and recognizing immediately that the music selection alone means that anything "good" about the system is an accident, not just despite the "tech talk" but also because of the way they attempt to "build on it", to "make a case" for their system that way. Well, make some significant Music with the system, and let's reverse engineer it from there. Basically, feel free to be "wrong" if you get great results, but prepare for skepticism if the theories don't produce great results. Sure, someone can insist that bad results are good (just listen to Trump...); but good luck with that at this particular website.

Paul S

04-08-2019

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	91
Post ID:	25356
Reply to:	25355

Hope?

For all practical purposes, ESD has“proper“ horns and apparently decent drivers. Thus, we have a chance with this collection of bits to have some decent sonic results. Now we just need a process, perhaps the most difficult part.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

04-08-2019

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	92
Post ID:	25357
Reply to:	25356

Well, time will show...

rowuk wrote:
For all practical purposes, ESD has“proper“ horns and apparently decent drivers. Thus, we have a chance with this collection of bits to have some decent sonic results. Now we just need a process, perhaps the most difficult part.

Well, the “better” ingredients are not necessary an assurance of any kind “better” or better to say advanced result. I feel that advanced thinking is typically bring better results and so far I do not see in what ESD does any advanced thinking. Pay attention to the presentation that ESD did in Munich, the video is imbedded at this thread a pages or two ago. I think is was very good presentation and it very much exposed what is in the head of the guys who are responsible for what ESD. They do not saying wrong things in that presentation, although there are some things that I would very much disagree, which is fine. The main fallacy in that all tougher good presentation was a presupposition that mindless accumulation of better ingredients is enough to make “best” speaker. First all of that ESD does are not “best” ingredients but the most important is that the whole presupposition is fundamentally faulty. The “best” speaker is made by administration of very fine and very sensitive aspects of sound repudiation, including very subjective and very hard to understand logically nuances, opening your mind and to use tangible and non-abstract methods to navigate own decisions. Of cause it includes better ingredients and properly applies science but as one of my old friend told me in 90s: if you measurements do not directly correlate with you listening experience then you do not measure right things.

The case to point are some small Japanese boutique shops. The Japanese, some of them, have own relationship with “labor” and they are willing to spend literally a life time to polish some kind of obscure knob and to experience some bizarre pride that that fucking knob is polished to insane degree of perfection. As the result sometimes you can meet some very odd examples of very none-commercial Japanese audio that define all rule of common sense and that sound absolutely stunning. Efforts, perseverance, honesty and the labor of love is the key in my view.

ESD is juts at the very beginning of the journey. They got drivers with some good ideas and only God knows how they sound. Thiers horns are OK, the exponential slowing horns opening with cut off frequency is an old ide and generally not bad but it did not lead them from withdrawing horns from HF. And of cause the main ingredient of ESD controversy: the last LF channels. There was so many people who wasted time and money with last mid-bass horn and stiff drivers, in my mind none of people who do it have ears…

Anyhow, my bitching about ESD is that whatever they do they present as so kind of “last” statement in horns thinking but a very superficial analyses of the thinking they invested into their current design indicate that they are not forerunner of horns thinking of any kind. I feel that Jeffery Jackson for instance is much more suited for this role…

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-13-2019

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decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #:	93
Post ID:	25359
Reply to:	25357

Holy trinity

Merely the horn-loaded combination of an S2 and a Fane 8M, driven by a full range Melquiades, is a world away from any ordinary speaker. It requires musical intelligence to arrive at that conclusion in the first place, iterating over a million possible combinations, but it ought to be obvious on hearing it now to anyone of modest musical sensibility and some exposure to live orchestral performance. A manufacturer could begin his journey a few thousand feet above everyone else's destination, if he actually bothered to listen.

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