ducatirider wrote:

a load on the side of the bearing could cause an elliptical rotation.  since we are dealing with micro-engineering the effect is likely audible.   Arthur Khoubesserian of Funk Firm uses a single motor with 2 additional pulleys to even out the lateral bearing force.  this idea eliminates the need for 3 motor synchronization.

Yep, I never was a big fun of 3-motor synchronization; in fact I feel that multi-motor idea is very bogus. If to pretend that we do have elliptical rotation then the fact itself that we have it is not a big deal. The bad thing is beating of spherical axis from one side of elliptical to another during the palter spinning. If a spherical axis has elliptical freedom but sits in one side of ellipse then it would be as good as no elliptical beating is available.

Fist I feel that an idea of a single motor itself is something that would keep a spherical axis leaned to one side of a hypothetical elliptical wearing of out bearing. The moment is continually applied to one side of platter effectively “biasing” the platter. There is way to take this presses further – introducing an artificial “brake” on another side of platter (or at any side at this meter). That brake acts like a mechanical grounding rod – it forces the spherical axis to sit very firm in elliptical corner. It also makes the driving belt from motor to work harder. By adjusting the force of the brake (mass of the pulleys, their driving diameter or whatever) it is possible to fine-tine the rotation system. Micro had this done with passive horoscope then the suggested to drive of the main platter. I like the idea but I feel it is very bulky.

What I experimented and go very good result was “suck out roller”. It was a soft rubber roller that was running off my driven by belt platter where the tension on the roller’s bearing was enough to bias out my platter. I was able to measure the fact the platter “sees” the roller. The Idea worked very well; however, I have to admit the all of it had no effect to auditable result. Eventually I returned back to just a simple and no fancy mass load platter with a single motor and loose belt…

There are several sources of relatively static and fairly variable noise and vibrations that a TT deals with, and likely there is no one way to deal with all of it at once.  A coupled fluid will likely let loose at some point where another form of anti-vibe must seamlessly take over, trap and then somehow disapate "noise".  In the case of the platter, there are broad band resonances from the environment and the TT's self noise, in addition to the mechanical interface of the stylus in the groove, and this is stuff we do not want amplified.  Some gets loose into the arm and some gets into the vinyl, and some of it shows up at the stylus - again - when it's no longer wanted, or it otherwise enters the amplification chain in an undesirable form.  Lots of interesting "proprietary" "solutions" out there, and in the case of expensive TTs they somehow tend to look like SOLUTIONS, as well.  Well, I suppose they better, after all.

The drive issue has been both way overblown and under-developed, practically speakingh, IMO, in that the theoretical forces we are talking about are miniscule in practical terms.  The "eliptical" bearing force loads are easy to incorporate in a captured bearing or bearings at both ends of a located shaft, and nothing I have seen or heard to date has convinced me of the practical worth of extra belt(s) and/or motors, in dealing with these issues, either.  My own experiments with belts show that the practical minimum is the best length, as they tend to develop vibrations and even cycles of vibrations if too long.  I just don't get, and I have never heard, how adding extra drive elements can help, in the end, when it is just more stuff to do something else, ie, it just becomes another variable (loose cannons).

Once the math starts, it just keeps going, and IMO it gets untenable, fast, and the super-engineers are left to "solve' only a few of the storm of "problems" that the "rigorous" approach generates as each factor introduces new factors.

In the end, of course, there has to be a balance between abstract science and practical application on the one hand and effective marketing on the other hand.  So far, it looks as though marketing is the biggest consideration in most cases; if not in the beginning, then certainly in the end.

Still waiting for the Ultimate TT...

Best regards,
Paul S

ducatirider wrote:

so voicing becomes as much an art as a science.

perhaps "voicing" was a poor choice of words.  but i don't think there's any designer that would put a concept into production before testing it for sound quality.  and then tweaking until the desired effect has been met.  tw spent decades perfecting his material choice for the plinth.  even a raven ac today has a different motor controller than one from a year ago. i do agree that there is no "ultimate" anything in this world.

ducatirider wrote:

tw spent decades perfecting his material choice for the plinth.

http://www.angelislabor.com/gabriel.html

"A true reference turntable equipped with a base that can accept up to four arms. The materials used include aluminum, bronze and stainless steel. The turntable and arm are totally decoupled at several points - beneath the base, beneath the turntable and beneath the pin, using a magnetic field calibrated and controlled with great precision. 
 
 Type: magnetic levitation 
 Transmission: double Belt in special material  
 Thrust block: Magnetic levitation with absolutely no friction or noise. The tolerance levels of the mechanical parts are incredibly low.   
 Power supply: Three speeds, 33 – 45 – 78 rpm with fine regulation. The motor is controlled by two electronic cards, the first controls the speed electronically and the second card reduces the motor vibrations by means of electrical adjustment of the phase of the motor itself. 

 The Gabriel Arm is made in Modena, Italy in the same factory where they construct precision parts in highly technical alloys for Ferrari. The arm is a very sophisticated achievement of which we are very proud. The Gabriel turntable and arm require absolutely no antiskating and in fact have no provisions for it. The turntable system is composed of three parts - the table and base for one to four arms; the 13-inch arm; and the cartridge. The Gabriel frame consists of two cone sections created by overlapping bronze with aluminium. These sections are joined by an aluminum rod. The first cone supports the turntable bearing, the second the arm and its mount. The assembled unit is quite tall and heavy: over 30 kilos. In terms of appearance, this is one of those analog monuments which catches everyone's eye the first time they see it.

Having to produce a top-class record player trying to get away from the constraints of traditional construction, we had to devise a completely new suspension system. And it is truly disconcerting. Gabriel is a magnetic suspension record player. The repulsive force is used not merely as a suspension system but also to support the turntable. This does away with the need for the traditional pinion thrust-block ball bearing bathed in oil, which is the fundamental critical part for any traditional record player. In practice, the turntable spindle unit is lifted by the force of the magnets while the centering system consists of self-lubricating brass bearings.

The 12+12-pin motor is synchronous, constrains the rotational speed to the mains frequency and uses an external power supply. This outboard unit has a twin control circuit: the first is based on the constant frequency signal generated by a quartz and amplified by an active solid-state circuit coupled to the motor via output transformer and operating as the speed controller. The second control circuit is passive and regulates the timing between the motor windings, compensating for rotational irregularities and reducing the vibrations created by the running motor. Finally, the motor support with its very heavy base and a series of flexible isolators reduces remaining vibrations further. An equally innovative approach was used for the design and creation of the arm. First, the joint system, as for the record player spindle, is a magnetic suspension system as well. To optimize the performance of the arm, three fundamental areas were focused on: considerable actual length to reduce radial tracking error; reduction of joint friction; and resonance damping."

Courtesy to Klangton from Germany.

http://klangton.blogspot.com/

There is a fusion in contemporary turntables: to make platters and tonearm bases separated. I am not an expert but in my ignorant common sense I do not think I like it. For instants take a look at a German table:

http://www.montegiro.de/en/lusso.html

Romy the Cat wrote:

There is a fusion in contemporary turntables: to make platters and tonearm bases separated. I am not an expert but in my ignorant common sense I do not think I like it. For instants take a look at a German table: http://www.montegiro.de/en/lusso.html ...it has a tonearm base that is absolutely disconnected from the TT. Furthermore it is not hard bolted to foundation but sitting on some kind decoupling spikes. Well, I presume that it is strong enough to maintain the tonearm geometry stable but still: if the TT system experiences some kind ULF impact then platter and tonearm base will response to it differently. I do not like it. The Cat

http://www.gizmag.com/record-player-reads-tree-rings/21198/

http://vimeo.com/30501143

guy sergeant wrote:

I saw this turntable while over at the show in Munich. It is called Air Force 1. Allegedly there are Micro Seiki people behind it. There might be some truth in that. A Micro for the 21st Century?

Stitch wrote:

The Designer of that Turntable is Mr. Hideaki Nishikawa who made the Seiki Turntables. The Turntable also shows former Seiki features like the heavy Platter and Vacuum System.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Stitch wrote: The Designer of that Turntable is Mr. Hideaki Nishikawa who made the Seiki Turntables. The Turntable also shows former Seiki features like the heavy Platter and Vacuum System. Hm, Stitch. I do not know the history of the company too well but when I visited Micro in 2000, if I am not mistaken, than the guy who I met told me that he is the owner of the Micro and he was the main designer of Micro turntables. He did show me his patents with his name, in fact he made me copies of his patents. He name was long and Japanese; I cannot look it now as I am far from home. His short name was Cho-san. I presume that nowadays anybody can claim Micro dependency and it is very possible that the guy who does the TT now was the Micro designer as well. It would be nice to know the reality of the Micro designers. The Cat

Romy the Cat wrote:

What kind sense of actions audio people have when they buy audio just because they want to add it to own collection of pointless glitter? The caT