This kind of freakish subject and the title of this thread is most likely is very misleading. Commonly the term “last something” is used as “best of the best” after which there is nothing else to explore. This definition grotesquely stink with heavy marketing smell and in a way semi-foolish, still it is heavily used.  I would like to feel my definition of “last something” imply not the top of the line but rather my ABSENCE OF DESIRER to peruse anything beyond of that “something”. So, in context of this thread, or in context of my entire site, the use of “last of something” has no other meaning then indicates my long-term comfort with this “something”. How this “something” relates to artificial hierarchy of the best out there I do not particularly know, nether too much care.

So, after straggling with the dilemma with my beloved Shelter 901:

(Look at the Second Page of the following thread: http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=860 )

I concluded that my Shelter, even though it’s needle still in a good shape, is die somehow. So I need to buy another reference cartridge. When I thought about it the word “need” got my in trouble. I have no “need”. My second beloved MC Stereo cartridge is Ortofon SPU Classic in old SME arm. I adore what it does but I also would like at my reference arm to have more stupendous bass, preferably a different “complex” profile of needles and much more “high-tech” performance all around. The Shelter 901 did it wonderfully but now it is looks like dead…. My condolences…

My initial sentiment was to buy another Shelter 901, in fact it is my sentiment now, but then looking for a large amount of different cartridges that were released recently, particularly from Shelter, I was wonder if it worth to look around for a while before to buy the thing. Money is not the subject that makes me to be worry with my selection of a new cartridge. What makes me “anxious” is the fact that it will be the last cartridge. Let me to explain.

My attitude toward analog changed.

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=8077

I do not use LPs to explore musical culture and to learn about music and about audio. I do not buy a lot of records, I do not spin a lot of records and if I do spin then they are much targeted and I very much know what I would like to get from it. So, I played much less records let say a dozen or two dozen records per month. I also have 4 arms, that makes the Reference Arm to play 25$ or less of all records I play. I also play on Reference Arm only records in perfect condition.   With this load a new cartridge might last for 30 years. Well, I am 40 now, do the math…

So, I would like to buy a good “high-tech” contemporary cartridge and combining of with my current Ortofon SPU Classic and Ortofon SPU MONO to close my book of interests about the whole world of cartridges. Frankly speaking if I do not have this became-empty Reference Arm with all of it “reference setting” (my best tonearm, my best low voltage Dominus cable, best location on my TT and so on) then I would just live with my Ortofons –they do just fine, but I also have witnessed what the contemporary Shelters can do – quote amassing his I can tell you.

So, I kind of looking around what is out there became available, since I found my piece with Shelter 901 slightly less than 10 years ago and stopped looking. The Shelter come up with 90x, 5000, 7000, 9000, Harmony cartridges.  Dynavector released a number of new 8-coiled models - I have the very first one and it was very nice. There is a newcomer out there ZYX cartridges – I know nothing about them besides that each single person why I believe is clawless about analog have bough and use ZYX cartridges. Koetsus suck, I do not like them. Clearaudio too high-fiish and too annoying to my taste. The Benz Micro, Transfiguration and Sumiko are not really the needles of level that I am looking for. I never understood Lyras – they always play out of phase to what I expect them to play. Ortofons introduced 3-4 new top of the line cartridges that I do not know.  There is an army of small brands that do good MC cartridges; particularly there is a lot of Asian cartridges. I have no idea about them also.  I might go on and on….

You see the problem with cartridges.  I do not think that there is a framework how we the users can buy cartridges. If I have an interest in a cartridge then I cannot juts borrow and to try it. Dealers do not lend cartridge and I perfectly understand them.   All that I left to me is to read/hear somebody else comments about cartridges but I have a problem: I do not give a shit what others say or think about audio.  Even doing to other listening rooms and listing the setups with the cartridges of my interest is not work out to me as I do not like the Sound in those listening rooms…

I spoke with a new dealer recently who specialized on cartridges. He proposed me to demo for me a few exotic cartridges with a condition that he would do demo himself and setup cartridges himself on my TT. The price he asked was 50% more then I would pay normally elsewhere he also insisted that I will buy a cartridge from him after the demo. I asked him why the prices include the amount enough to fly Tokyo, by this needle in Akihabara and return back. He suggested that I should not worry about it because in his price included his education how to properly setup cartridge and to get best his cartridge with my playback. I proposed his to go fuck himself, so he went…

Anyhow, it is not that I am running around trying to buy my next and hopefully last cartridge, but I do keep my options open and my attention alerted.  I do have some incantation to stay with Shelters – juts love the Shelter 901, but I have no loyalty to anything. It is very possible that Shelter 901 that was 10year back is not the same as it is now. You never know unit you know….

Starboy, you are lucky. You got with what you feel comfortable, BTW, does it do bass? I wonder how you approached the cartridge? Did you hear somewhere the cartridge or heard from about it from someone? The reason I asked is because I really do not know how people drawn to cartridges.

In my case I have problem to talk with audio professionals who sell cartridges. My attitude, you know…. I always feel that when they talk to me they talk to 5 years old why would be satisfied with any BS they are willing to say. I called today to Shelter distributor and told that I use 901 for 10 year and adore it a lot but lately it developed a compression. I asked since they do not case 901 anymore then how the new 4 Shelters models compare to my 901. He said that they are better (who could believe). I asked how better. He said that the new cartridges are better because they have more heavy bodies. Is he out if his mind or he feels that anyone is as idiot as he is? I do not know.  Those people annoy me.

What interesting was that I asked that I have seen many companies produce “flow up” product after their successful models that are in fact much worse in performance.  I know that 901 was very fine, so how the 5000, 7000 and 9000 models in compare to 901. He refused to comment on it and suggested to re-tip my 901 ($900). You know, I do not like the guy and he treated me that I am a fool - why should I pay to him $900?

What also interest me is what the faction of the cartridge dealers? They sell 901 for $1600, Japan sell it for $900. I have no problem with mark up but I presume that for this money the shell sell service. When I go to my Thai restaurant then I ask them to bring me a compilation of all their spices – I like them all and I do love to eat them all. So, when I am willing to buy a cartridge then would the assortment of cartridge available for me to try constitute the “service”? Sine those gays are not qualified or able to talk about Sound (did I mention a responsibly for said) then what other options do I have? If I am willing to buy cartridges “blind” then why do I have to pay any commission to the dealers and distributors that offer no add-value services but just move heavy little boxes with 11g cartridges?

Where those EdgarHorn Titans with the Edgar’s woofers?  I ask because I am very concerned about the LF response. The Shelter 901 has phenomenal bass in my view, even now. In fact all my system/room in a way “calibrated” from the bass that Shelter 901 does. Live sound from FM do similar bass but not identical. The LP bass from Shelter is more in a way artificial and more on audio-side of realty. But I kind of like it and I know how to USE it. One of the most wonderful characteristics of Shelter’s 901 lower bass is that it is very slowly bubble up to the lover mid. I hate analog that is disable to play lower notes slow…

I did not have London cartridges. A few days back I sold one of my Sansuis to a local guy and when he picked it up he proposed to me to lend me Decca cartridge to try. I was kind of scared as he saw me for a first time and proposed to lend me his cartridge… I do not lend my cartridges even to my closed friends… Well, perhaps I need to take upon his offer and to try it…

My leading idea is get another Shelter 901 or Ortofon SPU Anniversary 85 or perhaps to try the top of the line Dynavector. The key here is not only getting a good needle but to get “different” sound then my Ortofon SPU Classic does. The Ortofon SPU Classic is remarkable cartridge, probably the very best buy for $700. It is however it is slightly (and very gloriously) on Romantic side and I need another more anal-retentive and more hard-working cartridge. The SPU is a liberal aristocrat, but I need more pragmatic conservative engineer. Shelter did the job very well and I knew very well what cartridge to use with what kind music. I would never play with Shelter the recordings of Borodin Quartet from 60s. From another side I would never play with SPU the Bernstein’s of Solti’s recording of Mahler …. I would play however the Karajan’s Mahler Sixth with SPU….

Where do you feel the Decca would fit in this semi-delusional hierarchy of mine?

drdna wrote:

Romy, I think you are asking if I have the Edgar subwoofers also.  Yes, I do, like giant woodgrain refrigerator in the living room.  So I do get some bass response.

Yes, I was asking about the Edgar refrigerator subwoofers. Without them it would be difficult to take serious anybody commenting about the bass coming from LP. I really hate when people with puffy Thorens Turntables and full-range Louther speakers keep assuring me that they are getting a “right” buss from their cartridges.

drdna wrote:

The Decca cartridges sound different from every other cartridge I have heard. Before this, I had crafted my stereo around trying to get closer to the sounds right and occasionally there would be a moment on a particular record where I would hear the Sound.  This record would become a reference for me and meanwhile I focused on getting the balance of emotional liquidity with my Koetsu or my 2A3's and the technical accuracy with my gold and silver wiring mixtures. However, when I heard the Decca Jubilee, I heard the Sound.  And it was just there very plainly.  In the same way when you go and listen to a concert, you are not adjusting your seat or your ears -- because the music is just there, likewise I kind of stopped worrying about the stereo with the Decca.  In many ways, the Decca may be seen as deficient: it is not tonally perfect, it is not a super great tracker, etc.  But, for whatever reason, the Sound is there, and the minor technical deficiencies do not matter.

Interesting comment. It turned out that the local guy who I thought have Decca has in fact not Decca but EMT cartridge. So I have no change to hear Decca locally. Still, from your comments I sumized that Decca might be an interesting all around needle not necessary a right chose to compliment my SPU cartridge. I am looking for more an anti-SPU-type of sound. From what you say the Decca might have a LOT of similarity with SPU…

drdna wrote:

Yet, I think the Decca Reference will best suit you.  (Tell Warren I sent you and he will give you a good deal.)  The Reference is a different cartridge.  I listened to this in my system for a few weeks but I ultimately did not keep it.  If I won the lottery I would have both the Jubilee and the Reference however. The Reference loses a small bit of the Sound, which I was unwilling to accept.  The trade off is that it then gives you perfect tracking, inner detail, accuracy, emotion, and everything else that the typical audiophile characteristics will describe as glorious.  It is clearly more the engineer than the artist.  But among engineer type cartridges, I will make this analogy.  If van den Hul or Clearaudio are like reading very complex elegant engineering explanations of suspension bridge structure, then the Decca Reference is like walking on the Golden Gate Bridge on a warm Spring day.

Very interesting! This is in a way exactly what I am looking for. Who made them? I mean as I understand it is not the same Decca London that was 40 years back (reportedly very good cartridges at that time) and noondays it is a small none-connected company that juts use Decca name. Adrian, do you have any stats how the new Decca cartridges age? I mean, sine I am not will be playing them for a long time I wonder if I will be able to get out of this damping more then 5-10 years. Also, who is Warren that you told above?

drdna wrote:

Romy, I believe the cartridges are manufactured form Decca by JS Wright in London. The suspension is less of an issue since the Decca cartridges use a novel transducer.  There is no cantilever.  The stylus connects directly to a metal foil which flexes to create the current.  I have been running mine for many years with no issues at all. It seems pretty bullet-proof. I got mine from Warren Gregoire. He was then, and perhaps still is, the sole importer.  He is a really nice fellow, and he let me borrow the cartridges, with a deposit of course, for an extended trial in my system. I returned the cartridge after trying it free of charge and with no hard feelings.  I was just too hooked on the Jubilee, but again if I had two tonearms on my set-up, I would have both.  Look him up at http://www.warrengregoire.com and tell him I sent you. I have been over to his place a few times to listen to his set-up with the Vacuum State preamp and amplifiers.  His system is, frankly, severely tuned for inner detail at the expense of the Sound, but he knows what he likes and has a good ear.

 Adrian,

Thanks. The idea of a cartridge had no damping and therefore not exposed to aging is appealing to me, though I do not know what a novel transducer is and if it excludes any needs of damping. I did give to Warren Gregoire a call and I was trying to explain to him what I am looking for. He said the he would not sell to me his Decca cartridge because in my case it would be a waste of money. He was attentive and cooperative until I mention that I will be using SME 3012 arm but as soon I mentioned 3012 he informed me that it is a “piece of junk” and that “I will not be able to get what is possible to get out of Decca unit I go for $4K-$5K tonearm”. I was a little concerned by the fact that he mention arm by price and by the fact that did not say something like “unit you go for different type of bearing arms” and I asked what in his view is dissatisfactory in 3012 to play with Decca cartridges. He sound like he lost inters at this point and informed me that he has no time for further conversations. Well, I think it where the Decca cartridges went…

I am sure he know what arms is necessary for his cartridge and that he has his feeling what would generate for him essay sale but honestly I did not heard from him anything persuading that he might be on right tracks. You see, it is a two way street and getting and relying upon an advice from a dealer about his product I anticipate a dealer (if I do not know him) to establish a certain credibly. I try in a way to interview a dealer to make sure that we have at least common viewpoints and agree about something; otherwise it is just shaking air with words. Warren said that Decca is better then Shelter 901 (he somehow know that I use 901) but when you make this comment you must identify the specific weakness of Shelter 901. That how a sealer establish with me a standing and credibility with you advise. I very well know all flaws of Shelter 901 and if you right then I would be very carefully listen what you propose. The same is with 3012. The 3012 might have specific problem with cartridges of specific design. It was not said by this dealer. So, why do I have to have a feeling that he is taking about something that I would agree? After all, dealers do not sell cartridges. For 40%-60% of mark up that they get they sell this expertise to advise one or another cartridge. I do appreciate that Warren felt that I will not be a right user of his Decca cartridge (it saved time for both of us) but he also did not demonstrate to me another that would persuade me to get his counsel and to change arm or anything like this to accommodate his Deccas. Thanks, Adrian, for pitching the Decca but it does not look like it would go anywhere.

Ironically this morning I had a long conversation with another dealer with whom we did compare notes about cartridge. His comments about Shelter, Koetsy, SPU, Clearaudio and other cartridges that I know were exactly what I would like to hear. We were not agreeing about everything but he did hit some very key points that give to me very high confidence about his recommendations. He did recommend to me one cartridge, well justifying his recommendation and very interesting predicting the sound I might be getting from it comparing to my other arms.

Later on this week I will be meeting a guy who has good experience with Shelter 90x, 5000, 7000 and 9000 and after then I this I will be able to make more educated guess where I will be moving.

drdna wrote:

…Sorry for your disappointing experience.

Why was it a disappointing experience? I was not. It might be disappointing for him – he did close the sale, but it was not disappointing for me.

I read his comments about his cartridges on his site:

http://www.warrengregoire.com/hifi-stereo-phonocartridges.htm

It sounds interesting and not substantiated, not to mention that some comments are not consistent in my view. I for instance I feel disgusted what I read that:“The London Company seems to be having a difficult time keeping up with the worldwide demand for this hand crafted wonder.” It is at the same time that the cartridge is being sold around the world with huge discounts and without any pressure for “worldwide demand”. Perhaps Warren Gregoire  need to learn how to sell to somebody who less care about a chip hype and more care about substance?

Anyhow, it might be a good cartridge, I do not know. The conversation with Warren brought me to nowhere. As you said Warren sales with in-home trail (despite of the “worldwide shortage”:-) and this shell be very much appreciated. I would like anyone sell this way. Perhaps if I had an arm that Warren would endorse I would try his Decca cartridge. But since I do not I will wait until Warren would smart up and learn about the sound I am getting from 3012. Otherwise I would buy Warren’s Ikonoklast speaker with Lowther DX-4 driver and will be discovering how to “proporly” appreciate the Decca cartridge ….

Romy the Cat wrote:

Otherwise I would buy Warren’s Ikonoklast speaker with Lowther DX-4 driver and will be discovering how to “proporly” appreciate the Decca cartridge

Thanks, starboy.

It is educational. Your Mantis might be an interesting cartridge and it is too bad that there is no way getting any frame of its performance besides buying it. Among the people I know, in whose listening rooms I was and why were and my room, who have a certain common denominator in semantics about audio, no one had Mantis cartridges. Perhaps I might give him a phone call to see how it goes, do they speak English in there?

I also very reluctant to move up to Shelter line. I would rebuild my 901 instead; I might talk to that Peter Ledermann that JJ mentioned.  However, I would give to the Shelter guy a chance, who know, will see how that goes as well. Shelters are on a cool side of tone, almost at no-tone side. It is a minus form point of view of absolute Reference cartridge but it is in a way a benefit in my case, where Shelter is used as a cartridge that compliment the tonal-frenzy and in a way colored SPU.

Taking about cartridge and comparing notes I come across to a very interesting option that I am very much considering. The Ortofon Jubilee was presented to me as anti-SPU type of sound still with SPU’s tonal capacity. THAT is very interesting. If I would be able to get the SPU’s color scale and combined it with Shelter’s neutrality, frequency extremes, dynamic capacity and certain viciousness then I might commit adultery to Shelter. There is one thing that very much annoys me in Shelter, even if I love it’s sound. The “complex” profile of the 901 tip makes the needle to pick a LOT of dirt from record. I needed to be clean after each side. In contrary the conical and elliptical profile can play for a long time with no dirt attached to them. I do not know it is it because the profile but something in 901 makes it a magnet to dirt…

starboy wrote:

In the thread I wrote there is another Mantis owner Bauzace50 (a noted gentleman to myself in terms of transducers) who had a Jubilee as his reference and that with no second thought hit the Bay.

starboy wrote:

www.blueangelaudio.com

I did call to the guy who makes the Mantis cartridges on Saturday trying to find out what it is. His name was a fairly long that I failed to undusted (very typical for me). We had a semi- productive conversation and I requested some introductory kit via email. I go more information form “Andre” – which is the name that I am sure, would recognize via telephone. I presume that it is the same gentlemen form Johannesburg who makes the Mantis Blue Angel cartridges. I asked Mantis is he would allow me to post in this there some of the information that he sent to me, if I get OK then I will do so.

Generally the conversation with Andre went OK. To my pleasure he did not express that idiotic attitude that most of US manufacturers do. The US manufacturers or distributors are considering themselves as belly-button of audio universal and the ultimate providers of Better Sound. Their superior attitude and their feeling that they do a huge favor that they talk to you is something that annoys me tremendously.  Andre communication protocol is different in a way similar to a very few other manufacturers who do custom work and deal direct with customers.   It is good sign as far as I concern.

There were some moments that I appreciated in the conversation about that Mantis cartridge and there were some that made me suspicions. Perhaps both of those feeling are groundless and I need more time to press all data that I got. The bad part in all of it that familiarizing about Mantis’ data and talking with Andre about it I still am absolutely clueless about the sound of this thing and if the Mantis cartridge might be something that I am looking for. I think the conversation about Mantis will continue in this thread.

I was taking lately with the Blue Angel’s Andre and kept asking him about his cartridge’s bass. He got “scared” and asked me if I am looking for overly-anaphased bass, then he asked what kind music I am listening. I perfectly understand why he got “scared” as there are a lot of Morns out there who are looking cartridges to deliver the club’s chest pressure while they listen pop music.

Although my paranoia with bass does sound mature but my reasoning for paying too much attention on cartridge’s bass slightly on other side. There are 5 major characteristics that I care in cartridge:

1)     Quality of the lowers bass.
2)     Dynamic property  relative to harmonics
3)     Amplitude of tonal palette  and the quality of the Absolute Tone ™  (read somewhere at my site)
4)     Cleanness of HF in regard to the lowers bass.
5)     Connectivity of the events

There are many other thighs that I pay attention but those 5 characteristics are mediatory.  My second Stereo tonearm armed with SPU Classic centers around the paragraphs #3, #4, #5. My Reference Stereo tonearm with Shelter 901 is centered on the paragraphs #1, #2, #4… In my view Shelter 901 does a phenomenal job in the #1, #2 and #4.  It is not difficult to see that all of those 3 paragraphs are based upon the Quality of the very very lowers bass.

Why I am so abscessed with the lowers bass. Well, do not take is as a posing but the reason is simple:  because my installation can handle it at the level where I can capitalize on it. It is VERY difficult to get bass in analog. Some turntables do not have it. Some tonearms do not have it. There is nothing that can be done to it – it is just not there. Surely many speakers and amps do not handle bass. Many rooms do not handle bass in right way. Mostly none of the transforms do lowest bass right. In the very same ways many if not most of the cartridges do not develop proper bass and if they do then screw up in many other areas, making good bass unusable. The Shelter 901 has no only great bass but it has phenomenal bass. It is not just only bass but the way how that bass blossoms itself up to the lower midrange.  I was not able to get in on my Micro 5000 and never was able to get it on other arm beside the 3012 with ~30g effective mass. But I am so in lobe, or in addiction to this Shelter’s lowest bass that I hardly see myself to commit adultery to it.

If I stepped away from Shelter 901 then I do ask for a certain level of lowest bass quality. I understand that there is no infrastructure or language to support the subjective assessments of the lower bass but it would not stop me to demand what I would like to get.

Stressing Bass in my former post I would like do not overly accent the lower bass itself but rather an organic combination of bass with something that I would call “full body” sound.

It we look at many properly setups, loaded and amplified cartridges then quite many of them have that “lean sound”, the tiny, high resolution , forceful presentation of notes; the notes that punch listeners with disconnected sonic needles. I know that the Morons consider it as “high definition audio” but I hate it very much. In fact most of the people build own playbacks (speakers, tonearms, amps, digital and so on) in exactly the same was but it would be a different topic.

Surely this high definition, lean, overly-hyped presentation is not ONLY the subject of cartridges but some cartridges have generally a tendency to “lean sound” vs. “fool body sound”. The lean cartridges have tendencies to convert contralto into coloratura mezzo-soprano, they uselessly slightly more musically “sharp” and have slightly reduced the profile of parabola with witch a tone roll into its pitch. The lean cartridges are demonstrable and effective but only in context of instantaneous gratification. They are like some Asian food – easy come and easy go…

Musically the lean cartridge goes well with flashy, showy and ostentatious music: Rimsky-Korsakov’s Sherezade, Shchedrin’s Carmen, Early Beethoven symphonic works, most of Horowitz and so on… As the examples of the lean cartridge would call all Lyra cartridges, all Clearaudio cartridges, most of Denons, most likely the ZYX (thought I hear it only a few times not in my playback and I cannot generalize at this point), in a certain was the Transfigurations, the cheaper Dynavectors and a few others. The Shelters, at least the 901 that I have is nothing even close to be lean, in fact it on the very posit side – it is fat and something that I call would call “stout sound”. That stout sound characterized by a good saturation of harmonics in the “primary frequencies” (300-500Hz) and a proper parabola with witch tones roll into own pitch. The “properness” also derided not only from a good development in “primary frequencies” but a good balance if transient characteristics to the “size” and “weight” of the “primary frequencies”. Here is what I feel Shelter 901 doe superbly good.  The Ortofon SPU in my view is also have very well developed “melody range” (primary frequencies) but they are pleasantly colored and have no lower bass to support and balance out the HF extension. Here is where Shelter shine on a good glory… What I wonder if the Ortofon Jubilee is capable to break through the SP’s family characteristics…

What I very funny that that analog people refuse to talk objectively about the “lean” vs. “full body” sound of cartridges. The feel that it is some kind of highly subjective things that shell be left out of attention. Ironically it is the very first thing that I care when I ask about cartridges. For a last couple days I was posting at Vinyl Dedicated forum (http://www.vinylengine.com)  trying to get form the guys who use Blue Angel OLIVE Mantis cartridge an idea what lean vs. stout character the Mantis has. As any other audio-cretins out there they had many recommendations for me to use medications and how to behave more congenially among the horde of idiots but they did not indicate anything that might identify the lean characters vs. full body character of Mantis.

Looking further to the candidates …