GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - We are just covering old grounds.

04-10-2011

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oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #:	76
Post ID:	15989
Reply to:	15987

Yes Romy, £225 per pair! And again read more carefully-Anubisgrau is not someone I know.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Yes, I did not realize that the price of £225 is for a PAIR; usually price is given per driver. I guess the £225 per pair is not and of the world but I still insist to pay 65 cents per 1 Euro as it use to do… In past I never dealt with Fane directly. There was a pro audio dealer in UK: “Nightfire Acoustic Technologies”. His site was www.pa-direct.co.uk but he is out of business foe a few years. The owner name was Ian and each time I needed any amount of the drivers Ian send me as many I needed. All of my drivers were custom and over the years I think I bought 16 of them for a number of people. There was never regular service denial from Fane, never any request for bulk production, what has happened now?

The Cat

I do not know why we are even having this conversation anymore. How could you miss that the price was for a pair baffles me. As far as I know, people want to buy these drivers in pairs and I stated that the price was for a pair. But now I understand better your shock at the price. As for Fane requesting bulk production, I am tired of repeating that Fane never requested anything of me. I asked them if they could make these drivers and as with many other companies, it makes no sense to place orders with different suppliers if the intention is to build just one pair, which is why they specified that the minimum order for this to make commercial sense to Fane was 50 units.

You go on to talk about service denial from Fane. But this is simply not the case as these drivers are not current production anymore and Fane is well within its right not to manufacture these any longer.

Romy the Cat wrote:

A few years ago your new friend “anubisgrau”, the silent designer of the SWING loudspeakers ( www.bd-design.nl), in response of my very specific criticism of many Swing ideas and use of BMS started very stinky and very low class character demonization campaign on line. The dirt was able to engage the subject of my criticism but he, along with a few dirt backs from his neighborhood, was effective (considering for taste his audiences) to convince them that they need to run a buy Swings because Romy was “fegg”, “Osama sympathizer”, “16-year old teenager” and the rest this that so nicely worked for his constituents. In my book, this behavior is not accidental and a clear justification that the asshole need to be run with asphalt roller. The most disgusting was that in a few years, when he moved to different projects, he was debunking the Swings ideas copping the text from my site and rephrasing my words. Do you want to talk more with me about this “anubisgrau” piece of garbage? Did you even see Lecleach, Geddes or Hasquin to behave in this way? BTW, John Hasquin was a person to whom I gave a pair of Studio 8M as taking of my respect and appreciation. The only thing that I would give to “anubisgrau” would be an incredibly strong kick if his tucking face.
The Cat

Where did you get the idea that "Anubisgrau" is a friend? I did not know him or of him before a couple of days ago when he contacted me about the Fane 8Ms.

You probably again misunderstood what was written on 'Diyaudio" in my post where I said:

"First of all, I would like to thank all those who have given this group buy some momentum. Gordan (A.K.A "Anubisgrau") a friend pointed me to the thread at Hifiwigwam that you started - many thanks indeed."

If you read carefully, I am explaining to Gordan that a friend of mine (not him) told me he started a thread at Hifiwigwam, another site where I have nearly never been, for which I said many thanks indeed. Saying thanks to a person I have never met or spoken to does not make him a friend, but it makes me courteous, courtesy being a quality that i happen to prize rather highly. As for the 'Swing' speakers and everything else you talk about, I honestly don't have the slightest clue about any of it.

Best regards
Rakesh

04-11-2011

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Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #:	77
Post ID:	15999
Reply to:	15981

Driver in a horn

I have seen Beyma rewrite their specs when they redo a driver and even add a letter to the driver for that change, even if it is the same driver.
Now I have seen variable FS responses form different drivers of the same model also.

I was joking with a close friend the other day, he had just sold a very expensive piece of gear so we all chipped in to help him decide what he could spend all this money on, Of course I insisted on a pair of GOTO SG146 Ld, this is a compression driver that is supposed to go down to 30 hz with a price tag of around 25k a pair. Now imagine I just give them to you, free of charge, you bring them home and put them on the shelve. Now start thinking about what horn you will make for them: for 30 hz we have a wavelenght of around 10 meters, a quarter of this s 2.5 meters long, at this lenght the size of the mouth becomes not so important, now time align this horn with the rest of your horns. The best we could come up with for his house was tearing down the roof and building a new one with horns.

I have now a full working, nice 120 hz horn with a 10" driver, I have made 3 or 4 pairs of horns to arrive to what I have today, I started with a pair 180 hz horns with lowther DX3 drivers, all the ferocity that lowthers are known for, inside a horn they become a pussy cat, very soft sounding. I made the horns with an 8" throat and no compresion. in my system they would go down nicely to about 400-300 hz and poop out with just noise under that. I tried fostex 206 and other drivers, I finally changed the horn to a bigger 140hz with a 4" throat, better compression better sound still too much in the midrange for my taste, I have tried the same horns 180, 140 120 hz with a bunch of different dirvers with different back chamber volumes etc. Making work a cone driver inside a horn is a several month job, as the moron I am, I never expected to spend so much time on this.

IMHO the upperbass horn is the most important channel in my playback, and getting it right is a priority. Unluckily I have spent even more time trying to get the frecuencies under it to sound right...

The idea of buying a new pair of drivers for my upperbass horn implies making a new pair of horns for them, testing them , adjusting and readjusting back chamber and then re mixing it with my other channels, easily a few months work. If I get the Studio 8M drivers they will most probaly go in my unused drivers closet, trust me I will have a hard time finding room in it for them. Maybe right next to my pair of GOTO SG146LG! jijijijii

I was just curious to see if they already have the specs for the new run.

04-11-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	78
Post ID:	16005
Reply to:	15999

Do not buy Fane, buy AK47.

Jorge, if you have 120hz horn with a 4" throat and 10" driver then Fane 8M would be a good candidate in my view. If I were you then I would try. The SG146LG is you had would be very interesting to try as well. Not to try it stupidly as most of Goto owners do but to make both Fane 8M and Goto to work identically-optimal for their respected topology. Then to see the difference. Honestly I do not know what result would be. Goto is a compression driver it has to be way more superior then Fane in all dimensions. Fane in the way how I use it is a compression driver as well but it has paper cone. My vote goes for Goto’s metal diaphragm – it got to have more transient response then paper with fabric suspension. However, Goto has very light cone for those frequencies and very limited power handling. So there are some issuers from Goto side. If I had something like SG146LG then I would try it but not right the way. In fact, considering the efforts it will take I wouls rather do not try the SG146LG but to have some kind of person who has a lot of Goto experience come to my house, listen my upperbass horn with my Fane 8M driver, pint out the specific sonic problems that he recognize and then inform me how Goto would address them. I do it with others, why no one does it with me?

Partially why I dive difficult time to those Fane buyers is because I do not want people buy Fane 8M for upperbass horns. I know Fane 8M, I has been using it for 11 years and if somebody us my bitten path then I have no opportunely to discovers something new. I would like somebody to discover another driver, better then Fane 8M and informed me another driver did better than Fane in the similar application. In fact I had one person who did reported it but he was an idiot and what I call that type “Sperm Vampire”…

Anyhow, If I were you I would get one pair of Fane 8M. If you are in horn world then a driver with 103dB sensitivity with 115Hz capacity is right in your alley. In the end here is the picture of the perfect horn with Fane driver in it:

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-11-2011

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Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #:	79
Post ID:	16006
Reply to:	16005

AK47

I wish I could stop the US government from selling AK47s in any corner shop in the US. If you give a monkey a gun, most probably he will shoot himself. If you give a monkey an AK47, well that is different. He will take anything he wants and few things will get on his way, Policemen; even un the US, dont carry assault rifles. You need the Army out on the streets, a different type of monkey!

I have a 120 hz horn, but with a 5 inch throat, designed specifically for this 10" driver, it has 102 db sensitivity and actual 110 db on the horn, no padding on my mid range compression drivers at all. it drops very agressively at about 1 khz, so just a 6 db high pass is needed. This 10" driver has the same magnet as their top of the line 18" driver, paper cone stiff suspension.

I guess it would be simple enough to add a couple of inches in order to bring the throat down to 4" in order to try the Studio 8M. I have already reduced it temporarily to 3" in order to try the JBL 2490h compression driver. I made an interesting test: I put the JBL 2490 on one side and the cone driver on the other side and unhooked the rest of the channels, I switched form one side to the other trying to see what differnces I could find between them, in the begining the differences were very big, I started adjusting the back chamber volume milimetrically untill I got 90% of what the 2490 was doing so wonderfully, there are still big diferences but they balance out, the 2490 is more detailed, transparent and dinamic, while the cone driver goes lower, keeping most of the attributes of the compression driver. This little bit lower, maybe down to 110-100 hz allows better integration with the channel under it, without this extension, there was a hole in there and this frecuency is so important, the lower register of even female voices was cut off and done by a woofer with terrible results. Now if I could get another horn to take it from there....

About the GOTO SG146Ld, well, it was a hipotetical question, I still cannot afford them and of course would not give them away ;-) but beyond that the next step I guess would be to get the horn going maybe even with a 12" or 15" driver making the provision to be able to attach an extension for the 4" GOTO while staying "reasonably" time aligned.

The interesting question here would be: where is the bordeline between an Arquitectural horn and a Furniture horn. This 120 hz horn can barely fit through a big doorway, it has a diameter of 92 cm and more than one meter long; Still maybe a longer squared horn with maybe one 90 degree bend or less, just a curve of say 20 or 30 degrees, some sort of J horn could work down to 60-50 hz making it around 2 meters long going from say the cieling to the floor could work, making the mouth to discharge against the floor in order to give the wave some time to mature...

Or just be a man tear the roof down!

04-12-2011

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oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #:	80
Post ID:	16019
Reply to:	15999

Fane specs according to Fane.

Jorge wrote:
I have seen Beyma rewrite their specs when they redo a driver and even add a letter to the driver for that change, even if it is the same driver.
Now I have seen variable FS responses form different drivers of the same model also.
...
If I get the Studio 8M drivers they will most probaly go in my unused drivers closet, trust me I will have a hard time finding room in it for them...
I was just curious to see if they already have the specs for the new run.

Hi Jorge,

It's good you are thinking of the comparative performance of the Fane 8Ms and the Goto SG146LG. I am even impressed that on paper it appears that the Goto might POSSIBLY be superior.

With regard to your query and another regarding the impedance of the new production run drivers, I have contacted Fane and received the following email regarding the specs of the Fane 8M. I quote in full:

"Dear Rakesh,

Good Afternoon, thank you for your earlier telephone call

I have spoken with Susan in production and we can only manufacture the STU.8M in 8ohms. We have however managed to find an old specification sheet for the STU.8M, please find this in the attached file

As soon as you are ready to place your order please do not hesitate to contact me

Best Regards

Daniel Barnes"

Unfortunately I cannot upload the pdf of the Fane 8M specifications in English as you did for the one in German. It is however in all respects identical to the one in German you posted above. I will send it to you by email and maybe you might do me a favour, and upload it here?

As to whether the new production units will correspond to the measurements of the old units, I can only say that based on everything I have heard so far from Fane International, the drivers will be the same apart from the rubber tyre trim on the magnet. Please let me know if you decide to place an order.

Best regards
Rakesh

04-13-2011

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oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #:	84
Post ID:	16026
Reply to:	16025

British audio archaelogy and the master excavator

Romy the Cat wrote:
I am glad that Fane “now found … that they have sufficient old stock of the 8 ohms or 16 ohms voice coils to”. Such a phenomenal discovery of the British archeologists. Can you ship them here in US, they can help us to find Jimmy Hoffa, can they? The thing is left to figure out why people want so desperately have 16R voice coils?

The Cat

Yes, Romy, you can be as sarcastic as you like. But the person at Fane who gave me the information seemed not to have checked with the production manager, and as they are so busy having just come back from the show in Frankfurt, I think the error is understandable. How many times have you yourself changed your mind or findings, or made errors?

As to why people are interested in the 16 ohms drivers, that is only true of some. The idea is that if the Vitavox S2s are being used, and a single amplifier to drive the different channels, it seems to make sense to go for 16 Ohms drivers. I think you have said as much yourself, although this issue is now immaterial in your system, given that you are using DSet amplification.

With regard to British audio archaelogists, I think that you will find it hard to deny that your Macondo system owes a large debt of gratitude to them. Do I really need to enumerate? Vitavox S2s and S3s, Vitavox AK15/40, Fane 8Ms, Tannoy 10" reds, even the tractrix curve...You are indeed a master excavator in having dug all these jewels of British audio to use in your Macondo acoustic system.

Best regards
Rakesh

04-13-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	85
Post ID:	16028
Reply to:	16026

Fane: 16 ohms vs. 8 ohms

oxric wrote:

As to why people are interested in the 16 ohms drivers, that is only true of some. The idea is that if the Vitavox S2s are being used, and a single amplifier to drive the different channels, it seems to make sense to go for 16 Ohms drivers.

I see, that is right. Still, I would like to point out that if the 16 ohms drivers not available and the system is driver from a single amps then it is perfectly fine to drive MF and Fane from different taps of output transformer. A note that I would like to make – the 16R Fane will require more power than 8R Fane. If somebody use low power SET of 1-3W then they need to be concern that that they might not have power to drive 16 ohms Fane. It is very difficult to estimate without knowing many other variables. In case of a single amp is used I prefers to have as high impedance of upperbass as possible in order to idle amp in upperbass. The very much unloaded tube has no power but has very desirable transients for upperbass. For the paper-based upperbass it is in particularly beneficial. Since the upperbass will not care any upper frequency tones then it is practically impossible to make the upperbass to fracture sound in the way how MF would do with super-idle load. If you use 6C33C then try to load this tube to 2K-2.5K MF channel. You will have so expedited Sound with so much harmonics extern then it will be too hard to listen.

With super idling in upperbass it seems that he eject not as bad, even though the upperbass might become too fast. For the people who do not know what loading type the will implement is imposable to guess what they will end up. If we have non-modifiable output transformers then the Fane’s voice coils need to be from 0.5R to 80R. For sure no one would do it. I would go with 16R and the only reason is that it is very simple to drop driver impedance if you need to by shunting the voice coil with a resistor. It has in most cases not to damaging effect. To increase impedance of a driver is much more complicated and imposable without damaging of sound.

BTW, I was not kidding about the dual-concentric 8” Fane. They did make a version of Studio 8M with a tweeter in the middle. I have it sitting in my driver storage…

Another BTW: the tractrix curve was not introduced by Brits but by French in 16 century after they study fish moving in water.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-13-2011

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oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #:	86
Post ID:	16030
Reply to:	16028

The tractrix, Newton, Jon Voigt, poor French mathematicians and fishy facts

Romy the Cat wrote:

BTW, I was not kidding about the dual-concentric 8” Fane. They did make a version of Studio 8M with a tweeter in the middle. I have it sitting in my driver storage…

Another BTW: the tractrix curve was not introduced by Brits but by French in 16 century after they study fish moving in water.

The Cat

Romy,

I admit my ignorance when it comes to the dual concentric Fane drivers, I must say the first I heard of the 8M was when I read about your Macondo Acoustic system on your site. Well, I may have some interesting bit of audio trivia for you. Vitavox did produce some ribbon tweeters at some point but I understand they are extremely rare and although I have a friend who is in Paris and finds them very good, I have never encountered them myself. That would complete your set-up rather nicely...

As for the French introducing the tractrix curve, although I have the greatest respect for Claude Perrault (and Huygens), the two French mathematicians you must be referring to (albeit that they were not yet born in the 16th century), it is interesting to note that Claude Perrault felt not up to the task of describing the curve mathematically. He took satisfaction in confiding to Gottfried Leibniz that another French mathematician, Pierre Fermat, had also failed to do so. On the other hand, our good Sir Isaac Newton had solved the problem decades earlier, in 1676!

In any case, the tractrix horn is clearly a british invention, that of the British inventor, Jon Voigt (that is what I was referring to, but I should really have referred to the tractrix horn rather than the tractrix curve). He applied for a patent for the tractrix horns on July 5, 1926 "Improvements in Horns for Acoustic Instruments" which was awarded the following year. see the patent here:

http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument;jsessionid=387C78FE159C8DBF57FCA8D1977AE73A.espacenet_levelx_prod_0?CC=GB&NR=278098A&KC=A&FT=D&date=19271005&DB=&locale

An interesting paper on the early history of horn design:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/3/714028/An%20Interview%20with%20PGAH%20Voight%20Part%201.pdf

Anyone interested in this great British inventor might find the following 'memoirs' serialised on the British forum 'pinkfishmedia' of some value:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=78278

It is obvious that in your system it is not so much the maths which is at issue as the tractrix profile used in acoustical horns which was arrived at in fact in ignorance of the prior work done in that field. Jon Voigt in fact thought that he had invented that equation until he was corrected and told that the tractrix profile was actually an old discovery (or invention arguably).

As for the idea that the original idea originated from observations of fish movement, apart from the fact that this does not appear validated anywhere in terms of historical accuracy, I have difficulty understanding how a curve which is part of the family of curves of pursuit or 'following' (Claude Perrault discussed the problem of dragging a stopwatch by its chain) could relate to the movement of fish in water.

Best regards
Rakesh

04-13-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	87
Post ID:	16031
Reply to:	16030

Of topic: who introduced tractrix curve.

Rakesh, I do not know a lot about the audio trivia. What I do know that in the world I live and I understand the tractrix curve introduced Bruce Edgar.

I thought that tractrix curve was described by French. The tractrix curve is twisted and not straight, so French would be perfect candidates. Still, the math description has very little relevancy. Voigt horns for sure had huge impact to what we now recognized as tractrix horns but his horns did not have momentum. The true momentum in my view, at least in the world that I was able to exposed, was launched by Dr. Edgar. Bruce was the one who introduced the entire idea of “new horns” vs. “old horns” and by doing it he contradicted with his MF tractrix the whole experience of Altec, JBL, EV and the rests.

I do think that the tractrix curve was propelled to today’s use by Bruce. Who “invented” it 300 years ago is less relevant as it has no relation to sound. I heard that tractrix curve was found at the underwater part of some Greek ships 7th centuries BC, too much for the “invention”. It is not too clear who first apply it to sound, probably Voigt but in our denegation there was no Voigt and the torch was cared by Bruce Edgar.

BTW, do not feel that tractrix curve is some kind of universally best profile. Nowadays La-horns take a lot of marker share and he are good for HF…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-17-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	88
Post ID:	16065
Reply to:	16024

Helping to sale Fane

OK, I think I need to help to poor Rakesh to sell his Fanes. If he do not find his 50 buyers then he will be suffer from need to buy all of them as the ugly Fane people will not give him a break, selling o him as many drivers as he has managed to sell for them. Rakesh posted an add at DiyAudio site, in wrong forum in my view but it is what it is.

What in my Rakesh need to do is to tap to a different market share. He need to find a location where Avantgarde Trio users hang around and pitch the Fane Studio 8M to Trio owners. I do not know where this place would be. Most likely he needs to do to TAS forums:

http://www.avguide.com/channel/the-absolute-sound

TAS forums are a place where reviewers, manufacturers, publishers and idiot-users are practicing those infamous public blowing each other. I think they have many residual Trio users, so this would be the next place where I would fish prospective Fane buyers. Sure the best would be get from Avantgarde dealer a list of the Avantgarde Trio users but it a bit too hard-core sale and I would keep those methods in back burner as they require a different mind frame.

Anyhow, the Avantgarde Trio users do not know I that only those £265 per pair separating them from taking their beloved Avantgarde Trio into a very new level that they never knew exist. The replacement of the stock Trio upperbass driver to Fane Studio 8M is 5 min job and might be done by a person with no qualification. No crossover change o r any other modifications need to be done. The phase of the driver might be a subject but it might be VERY simply to be resolved.

So, what Avantgarde Trio user will get from replacing the stock Trio driver to Fane Studio 8M. Tone will be MUCH more interesting, much more expensive harmonics, and many other things. The most important is that that the Trio user you will hear a great discrimination of minute tonal and dynamic nuances, something that the stock Trio driver eats up. It will not be in the way how it has to be – to do it the Trio midbass horn need to be modified but even with stock horn the use Fane Studio 8M in it will be VERY good advancement in sound, way larger in quality then £265 worth…

Rgs, Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-17-2011

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oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #:	89
Post ID:	16067
Reply to:	16065

Helpful Romy? What's next? Rational and civilised discussion?

Romy the Cat wrote:

Rakesh posted an add at DiyAudio site, in wrong forum in my view but it is what it is.

However, in an earlier post, where you suggested that I was knocking 'at the wrong door', you wrote:

Romy the Cat wrote:

I think if you would like to form an army of happy buyers then you might try to make announcement at DIYadio.com, AA and alike sites where people are more accustomed to such events.

Having said this, we should not be overly concerned or surprised about a few inconsistencies coming from you so I do not really mind.

Romy the Cat wrote:

OK, I think I need to help to poor Rakesh to sell his Fanes. If he do not find his 50 buyers then he will be suffer from need to buy all of them as the ugly Fane people will not give him a break, selling o him as many drivers as he has managed to sell for them.Rgs, Romy the Cat

Romy, I applaud the sentiment and welcome all help, especially if it is meaningful and given with a pure heart with no innuendos and no ulterior motives. Is your offer to help genuine? I have my doubts but I will not be accused of not having faith in the kindness of my fellow man (or cat) so I will accept it as being sincerely meant. So thanks.

I imagine that if you look at the number of orders for the Fane 8Ms, you will see that I have orders for maybe 10-13 pairs and so need only to get another 12-15 orders. Even if I was receiving two confirmed orders a week, it should mean that the required number should be reached by the end of May, maybe earlier.

I will look into placing a post on TAS, but will have to register first. Romy, if you are a member, and if you really want to be helpful you could word an appropriate post in the appropriate section on TAS with a link to the 'diyaudio' Fane 8M Group Buy thread?

You used the phrase 'ugly Fane people' in the post above. I honestly am mystified and slightly irritated that you take such a negative attitude to Fane, given that you have had no specific dealings with them and all I have written is to the effect that the company seems to be trustworthy and the staff there professional. Is it necessary to treat all manufacturers with the same brush? It suggests a childish and overly cynical view of manufacturers, one that cannot be taken too seriously. One would gain more by adopting a slightly less jaundiced vision of the manufacturers that populate our interest, and this in turn would enable one to discriminate more finely between the good, the bad and the ugly. We had a similar discussion years ago in the 'Schroder's' thread so I am not saying anything new. Admittedly, it is a hobby that seems to attract, by its nature, more than its fair share of charlatans and snake oil vendors but I would say that Fane is not one of them.

A slightly more balanced view of industry operators would do your site a huge amount of good. It would invite more productive discussion of a number of interesting goods and services that may be of interest to anyone thinking of treading the difficult horn multichannel loudspeaker path. Your invariably pertinent and insightful comments might influence a higher standard in the industry generally than we are presently used to. Of course, knowing you, I doubt it will ever happen but imagine if instead of scaring off the industry insiders you engaged with them in meaningful discussion?

Only recently, you commented that I appeared to be under the delusion that the LeCleach flare is considered by many to be superior to the tractrix for the higher frequencies. Guess what, Romy? Not only am I aware of it but I have read fairly long discourses online about the respective merits of these different flares. It would have been nice if such a discussion could take place here. I hope someday it will although I somehow am not sure it will ever happen. Quite a tragedy in my view.

Best regards
Rakesh

04-17-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	90
Post ID:	16072
Reply to:	16067

Keep your head on your pillow.

oxric wrote:

However, in an earlier post, where you suggested that I was knocking 'at the wrong door', you wrote:… Having said this, we should not be overly concerned or surprised about a few inconsistencies coming from you so I do not really mind.

There is a difference between “do not really mind” and “do not use mind”. If you do use mind then you understand that what I said “Rakesh posted an add at DiyAudio site, in wrong forum in my view” I meant that you posted it in “Group Buys” forum of the DiyAudio site. It was wrong forum and it had to be posted in “Multi-Way” forum. If you posted it in Multi-Way forum and instead of providing the Fane irrelevant evidence of authenticity the explanations to the local moron about the driver then you would have your 25 orders with a week.

oxric wrote:
Romy, I applaud the sentiment and welcome all help, especially if it is meaningful and given with a pure heart with no innuendos and no ulterior motives. Is your offer to help genuine?

Do I care? Do you care? Are you assessing my intentions of my compliance with “righteousness”? I care less nether about neither my intentions nor how they will be “understood” by internet observers.

oxric wrote:
You used the phrase 'ugly Fane people' in the post above. I honestly am mystified and slightly irritated that you take such a negative attitude to Fane, given that you have had no specific dealings with them and all I have written is to the effect that the company seems to be trustworthy and the staff there professional. Is it necessary to treat all manufacturers with the same brush?

Rakesh, you are so predictably bite the same bate.

oxric wrote:
A slightly more balanced view of industry operators would do your site a huge amount of good. It would invite more productive discussion of a number of interesting goods and services that may be of interest to anyone thinking of treading the difficult horn multichannel loudspeaker path. Your invariably pertinent and insightful comments might influence a higher standard in the industry generally than we are presently used to. Of course, knowing you, I doubt it will ever happen but imagine if instead of scaring off the industry insiders you engaged with them in meaningful discussion?

Did you ever ask why would I need it or want it? I laugh enough to witnessing you becoming a sales rep for Fane. You do it for 2 weeks and you have already losing your mind and begin to feel that proximity to “righteousness” is connected with demonstration of “respect” to those who feed you. Sorry, I am not a dog.

oxric wrote:
Only recently, you commented that I appeared to be under the delusion that the LeCleach flare is considered by many to be superior to the tractrix for the higher frequencies. Guess what, Romy? Not only am I aware of it but I have read fairly long discourses online about the respective merits of these different flares. It would have been nice if such a discussion could take place here. I hope someday it will although I somehow am not sure it will ever happen. Quite a tragedy in my view.

As I said many times before: people hear only what they understand. When you stop running like wounded in ass animal across internet and to collect in your mind anything that anybody say and when instead you begin your own practice and use your own mind to make conclusion and rationalizations then you will discover that 99% of BS expressed our there is irrelevant. Then you might re-read what I expressed about tractrix and LA-horn profile with slits new understanding. Meanwhile print your “fairly long discourses” in long roll of paper and keep it under your pillow…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-17-2011

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oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #:	91
Post ID:	16073
Reply to:	16072

Miaow of a useful cat

Romy,

Very briefly. I am wasting my time writing this response, and probably yours as well, but let me again, as you say, bite the bait and respond anyway.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Did you ever ask why would I need it or want it? I laugh enough to witnessing you becoming a sales rep for Fane. You do it for 2 weeks and you have already losing your mind and begin to feel that proximity to “righteousness” is connected with demonstration of “respect” to those who feed you. Sorry, I am not a dog.

The Cat

I am glad my fairly weak efforts to get some interest in the small production run of Fane 8Ms have provided you with some amusement.

However, as I have said previously, my interest in Fane is strictly limited to this production run and nothing more sinister as you seem to insinuate. On the other hand, you had no problem being quoted on PurePower's site as a user and someone recommending their PP2000. Whilst one could not accuse you of being a dog, you certainly ended up serving as a useful pussy cat. I am sure it did them a lot of good too. Your excuse with putting up with their complete lack of reliable service was to serve your selfish, not to say slighty hapless and desperate need for their 'unique' product. Good for you.

I do not really know Fane well enough. Other than a couple of emails and phone calls I have exchanged with them, I have no attachment to Fane. I do not recommend them or their products generally and their is no captive audience here. In so far as I have had dealings with them, they have been courteous and professional and that is all I have ever said. Why this comment provokes such barely controlled animosity from you I find baffling.

Maybe the explanation is that like all cats you are very territorial. The Fane 8Ms used in upperbass horns are really your hunting grounds, your pet discoveries and it bothers you that others might be making use of them in a similar application? As for using the Fane 8Ms in the Avantgarde Trio, I have never liked the Avantgardes myself and I am somewhat surprised you think their weaknesses are remediable. But if you want to be of assistance, and Trio owners are willing to follow your advice, I have no objection to you being a useful cat

Best regards
Rakesh

04-17-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	92
Post ID:	16075
Reply to:	16073

Laughing VERY loud.

oxric wrote:
….However, as I have said previously, my interest in Fane is strictly limited to this production run and nothing more sinister as you seem to insinuate. On the other hand, you had no problem being quoted on PurePower's site as a user and someone recommending their PP2000. Whilst one could not accuse you of being a dog, you certainly ended up serving as a useful pussy cat. I am sure it did them a lot of good too. Your excuse with putting up with their complete lack of reliable service was to serve your selfish, not to say slighty hapless and desperate need for their 'unique' product. Good for you.

Rakesh, I think you are missing the point. My comments about PurePower were taken from my public site and I have no problem with it. In fact they did ask my permission and I said that it is at public domain and I have no control or opinion what they will do with it. What I would have problem if PurePower would propose to render the long-needed AC bypass and the condition would be that I need to pre-sell for them 50 units in order they implement the functionality. If you do not see the difference then you do not see difference. I do not see myself to refuse to support what I said neither about PP2000 nor about 8M driver. The story in here in fact not about the Studio 8M driver but about the idiotic ultimatum they extend to you and that you absolutely voluntary have embraced.

oxric wrote:
I do not really know Fane well enough. Other than a couple of emails and phone calls I have exchanged with them, I have no attachment to Fane. I do not recommend them or their products generally and their is no captive audience here. In so far as I have had dealings with them, they have been courteous and professional and that is all I have ever said. Why this comment provokes such barely controlled animosity from you I find baffling.

My “barely controlled animosity” is a purely subject of your imagination. You create a fetish about them not me. I just having fun to see how they take advantage of you, sure very courteously and professionally. Not that I care, so all that I said that they are “'ugly Fane people”, that for sure in the eyes of “some” people get translated into “barely controlled animosity”. I found that this overly zealous, stupid and absolutely unnecessary protectionism is very typical in audio and THAT is what I am agaist.

oxric wrote:
Maybe the explanation is that like all cats you are very territorial. The Fane 8Ms used in upperbass horns are really your hunting grounds, your pet discoveries and it bothers you that others might be making use of them in a similar application?

Rakesh, I am sorry but you are even further running out of your mind with your theories. Are you proposing that I express the “barely controlled animosity” toward Fane because I feel bad that others will use their drivers? I do not even know if to laugh or to laugh VERY loud. I told you before that you need to do some degaussing from all of it as it affects you in very odd way. Now, as you voluntary become a part-time Fane pro-bono re-saler it getting worse very rapidly… BTW, I have some manufactures who would like to employ you as your deal with Fane will be over. I do not talk with Lamm but I am sure he will make for you one custom ML3 power amp if you pre-sell 25 pairs of ML3.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-17-2011

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oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #:	93
Post ID:	16076
Reply to:	16075

Rock bottom

Romy the Cat wrote:
I found that this overly zealous, stupid and absolutely unnecessary protectionism is very typical in audio and THAT is what I am agaist...

Rakesh, I am sorry but you are even further running out of your mind with your theories. Are you proposing that I express the “barely controlled animosity” toward Fane because I feel bad that others will use their drivers? I do not even know if to laugh or to laugh VERY loud. I told you before that you need to do some degaussing from all of it as it affects you in very odd way. Now, as you voluntary become a part-time Fane pro-bono re-saler it getting worse very rapidly… BTW, I have some manufactures who would like to employ you as your deal with Fane will be over. I do not talk with Lamm but I am sure he will make for you one custom ML3 power amp if you pre-sell 25 pairs of ML3.

The Cat

Romy, you are right, I am guilty as charged. I am secretly on Fane's payroll and am their marketing agent. I am also hoping to work for Lamm and this whole venture is part of my grand strategy to start selling hi-fi equipment for a living. Whilst doing so, I have turned zealous, stupid and unnecessarily protective, and running out of my mind with theories. Why deny it? And the descent from here is as inexorable as it is predictable. When I have reached rock bottom, be sure to let me know as I myself will be so blinded by it all that I will be in no position to tell.

Best regards
Rakesh

04-21-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	95
Post ID:	16118
Reply to:	16078

Will new Fane bring anything new?

Jorge wrote:
I guess it would be simple enough to add a couple of inches in order to bring the throat down to 4" in order to try the Studio 8M. I have already reduced it temporarily to 3" in order to try the JBL 2490h compression driver. I made an interesting test: I put the JBL 2490 on one side and the cone driver on the other side and unhooked the rest of the channels, I switched form one side to the other trying to see what differnces I could find between them, in the begining the differences were very big, I started adjusting the back chamber volume milimetrically untill I got 90% of what the 2490 was doing so wonderfully, there are still big diferences but they balance out, the 2490 is more detailed, transparent and dinamic, while the cone driver goes lower, keeping most of the attributes of the compression driver. This little bit lower, maybe down to 110-100 hz allows better integration with the channel under it, without this extension, there was a hole in there and this frecuency is so important, the lower register of even female voices was cut off and done by a woofer with terrible results. Now if I could get another horn to take it from there....

Jorge,

I see you got Studio 8M from the Rakesh’s little enterprise. What would be very interesting to see how 2490’s at it’s bottom knee will be able to work against Studio 8M. I wonder how low 2490 might credibly go? Would it be ~130Hz? The advantages of 3” exit 2490 are a bit dubious for upperbass channel, would it has 2” exit then it would have much beer EQ by horn. I truly like the idea of having metal diaphragm for upperbass horn. Would the 2490 be THE diaphragm? I do not know but I do not think so, because 2490 itself a reasonably “smooth” diver. I would like to have instead some kind of ugly-resonating diaphragm with a lot of colorations but running a few octaves below of where it resonates. Partially it is what I am accomplishing wish Injection Channel but no one say that the effects that I got by Injection might not be handled by the same driver that cares the main channel pressure.

I do not mind a lot of new people get the new Studio 8M but unfortunately it will close the window of opportunities for people to find another good driver suitable for 100Hz horn. What would be interesting if those who get the Fane this round would not use it as is but try to do something abnormal with it. The 3” throat on Studio 8M would give slightly larger compression, more output and more EQ from horn. It would be interesting to hear what Fane would do in 3” throat configuration. When I did my Midbass horn I went for 4” due to my objective to stay with certain max horn length. At that time it was the issue in my room.

Now I would not have room size restriction and I if I do Macondo from scratch then I might go might go for 3” throat hyperbolic horn. I am still not too wild about the mix of exponential and tractrix profiles in the same system. To my knowledge there is absolutely no one who care about the visual aspect of multichannel horn ails with different profiles. Still I think if to make the external profile similar but internal profiles different then it might be possible to do something very offensive from appealing perspective. Unfortunately people do not get that such an insignificant change from 4” to 3” in upperbass horn would lead to very dramatic change of entire speaker.

Anyhow, it is interesting how the new 25 users that get those Studio 8M will use them. I wish something “new” would derive from all of it…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-21-2011

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oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #:	96
Post ID:	16120
Reply to:	16118

Must be a glass window. I can't see it.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Anyhow, it is interesting how the new 25 users that get those Studio 8M will use them. I wish something “new” would derive from all of it…

Speaking only for myself, I am planning to use the Fane 8M in a pair of 115Hz tractrix horns to cover 100Hz to 1/1.2KHz, with a pair of Vitavox S2s covering 1/1.2KHz-9Khz. I have harboured serious doubts about the usefulness of the tractrix profile when it leads to a mouth diameter of 94cm, a good 15-20cm more than I would have liked the overall height of this channel to be. I however never felt comfortable with the mixture of an exponential rectangular mouth and spherical ones above from an aesthetic point of view. So what to do? Use a pair of 140-160hz horns? The problem is that then you end up relying solely on the midbass/lower bass channel for the critical 100-200 Hz with all the localisation problems that this entails.

Can I use an exponential or tractrix flare but in an ellipsoidal horn? I imagine I could have opted for that and that might have matched better with the midrange horn(s) visually. There are however two problems with this solution. With horncalc's, or volvotreter's tractrix formula spreadsheets, there is no problem calculating the tractrix profile for a circular horn. If I had access to CNC equipment, the making of these horns would be as effortless as getting a tan in Nice in August. With the ellipsoidal horns, I would have to rewrite the horn formula, not a problem in itself. But what about constructing an oval horn out of MDF sheets? That's seriously complex, I do not think anyone I have asked would be happy with that task. Secondly, what about the transition from a circular throat to an ellipsoidal flare? I would not know how to go about this.

So, yes, in an ideal world, I would have seriously considered doing something different, and with the right equipment, I might have done. As things stand at the moment, you are right to fear than in my case absolutely nothing 'new' is likely to derive from my intended use of the Fane 8Ms in my projected horns. Like you, I hope someone else has the guts, the resoucefulness and the skills to do something different we might all learn from though. If I were you, i would not hold my breath.

Romy the Cat wrote:

What would be interesting if those who get the Fane this round would not use it as is but try to do something abnormal with it. The 3” throat on Studio 8M would give slightly larger compression, more output and more EQ from horn. It would be interesting to hear what Fane would do in 3” throat configuration.

Why would that be interesting? I thought that the general rule of thumb is to try and use a ratio of approximately 65% which makes the throat of 4" the one to go for. Whilst the novice that I am means that I should stay quiet and keep my thoughts to myself, I would hasard a guess that merely extending a horn from 6" to 4" or 3," is not really kosher, so it is important that one decides on the throat size before running the tractrix calculations, not after. Now who can afford to try horns in all respects identical but with 3" and 4" throats and then compare? The potential gains from 'larger compression' are somewhat lost on me, as I feel that with the efficiency of around 109db we are dealing with and the rooms where these horns are likely to be used, that output is not really an issue.

Romy the Cat wrote:

I do not mind a lot of new people get the new Studio 8M but unfortunately it will close the window of opportunities for people to find another good driver suitable for 100Hz horn.

First of all, this is nonsensical. People have tried Faital, B&M and others and in some respects these have been preferred to the Fane 8Ms. Why would people suddenly stop experimenting with other drivers because there are a few more Fane 8Ms users? The Fane 8Ms are not going to get any easier to find after the minimum order has been placed and those which might come up for sale are not going to get any younger. The original reconing kits are only available in limited quantities and they are not exactly cheap at £120 a pair.

Secondly, for a window of opportunities to close there must be one which is open in the first place. How many viable alternatives are there at the moment to use from say 80/100Hz to 500/1Khz in an exponential or tractrix horn? On the other hand, if the sale of these new Fane 8Ms leads to a few more such horns users, we may find that in fact the temptation is to try and compare other drivers, compressions or otherwise, in these horns to the existing Fane 8Ms. I imagine once I am comfortable with the performance of the Fane 8Ms in a couple of years' time, I may well do this then. Someone with more experience like Jorge may well try other drivers sooner rather than later. I see these new drivers as creating a window of opportunities, not closing a non-existent one.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Now I would not have room size restriction and I if I do Macondo from scratch then I might go might go for 3” throat hyperbolic horn.

Now you are talking! If this exercise only managed to get you to think and talk more about the critical upper bass channel horn and drivers, then that in itself and nothing more would, in my books, have served a sufficiently laudable end.

Best regards
Rakesh

04-21-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	97
Post ID:	16121
Reply to:	16120

Cancel my subscription to resurrection...

oxric wrote:
So, yes, in an ideal world, I would have seriously considered doing something different….

I guess your definition of “doing something different” would imply reading of 534 pages of BS from people who have no idea about Sound about advantages of LA-horn over tractrix…

oxric wrote:
I thought that the general rule of thumb is to try and use a ratio of approximately 65% which makes the throat of 4" the one to go for.

I do not know if I agree with it. The only rule of thumb I know is that absolutely imposable with 100% certainty to predict how a non-compression driver will sound when it loaded into a “random” horn. The people states opposite are clueless.

oxric wrote:
Now you are talking! If this exercise only managed to get you to think and talk more about the critical upper bass channel horn and drivers, then that in itself and nothing more would, in my books, have served a sufficiently laudable end.

In my view there is no “truth” but there are multiple considerations of multiple “contingent upon”. My current thinking about upperbass horn would include the use of dedicated Midbass, Fundamental channels as well as the specifics of my room. What is important to understand are the experiments with “critical upper bass channel” people do what they in the state like you: trying to build upperbass or in a progress of building upperbass. As the “base” upperbass is built and the frame is constructed around it then no one wants to fuck with it anymore. I for instance have no intention to play with it anymore. Even if Goto rep will call me tomorrow and offer to lend me for a month 4” Goto metal-diaphragm drivers to see if upperbass might be made better then I would very hard to think if I want to do it. Sure, I have interest but I also mitigate my interest with my intention to invest into my interest. So, I fell I personally would be much more benefited if I see 25 people frustrated with a shortage drivers for upperbass horns and to try different other solutions then 25 people to mimic what I have already know and do not care.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-21-2011

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Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #:	98
Post ID:	16122
Reply to:	16118

Changes in Horns

Romy

I do not see the 2490 going any lower than 200 hz, I tested it in a 140 hz horn and in the 120 hz horn and in both tactrix horns the lowest it would go was 200 hz, I think even if I put it a 100 hz horn it will still go down only to 200 hz, so I guess if I want to get to go as low as possible I would use a 180-170 hz Expo horn, but as I see it maybe the best way to let it do its best will be a 200 hz tactrix horn and xover it at 250 hz and just let it run.

I do not see it right now as a susbstitute for the 10 inch driver (10M600) I am using since I do need the extra low frequency to 100 hz to match down to my current bass system. So the 2490 will play from say 250 hz up to about 1- 2 khz, I will not get rid of the 120 hz horns I will attemp a Fundamentals Channel with the 2490 running paralel to my current setup.

A the moment my system resolves all frequencies from 25 hz up to 40 khz with no fatal mistakes, it sounds very detailed with good tone, but it is missing a certain emotional quality, I will try to add a bit more harmonics with the fundamentals channel on the musical range and see where that takes me, this is unchartered territory for me but the better way to get there is to go...

I am getting the Studio 8M as a probable substitute for my current 10" drivers, extending the throat of my 120 hz horns temporarily down to 4 or 3 inches for me is no problem, if I find the Studio 8M to give some interesting attributes to sound I might make a specific horn for them depending on the results I get, maybe even a longer Hyperbolic or exponential horn; I would love to get a couple of hz lower from them too, I dont expect any big changes on my system with them, but i want to be surprised!

Jorge

04-21-2011

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oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #:	99
Post ID:	16123
Reply to:	16121

Departing from theory

Romy the Cat wrote:

I guess your definition of “doing something different” would imply reading of 534 pages of BS from people who have no idea about Sound about advantages of LA-horn over tractrix…

Touché! Now you are referring to my mention in an earlier post to "long discourses" about the differences between the tractrix and Lecleach horns. I made that comment unthinkingly (maybe a slight measure of the irritation I felt when writing that post) as I do agree that there is a huge amount of BS out there and people seem to do what they do with very little rational behind their actions.

If you knew me - not that I think you care, and not that I myself care if you don't - you would know that I never approach anything as simplistically as you seem to suggest and my definition of "doing something different" implies something considerably different than what you seem to advocate through the changes that you make to your system on a fairly regular basis. It is not something that can be too easily described in a post but I will try, briefly.

I imagine a multichannel horn system is a bit like the various chess pieces in a game of chess, the 'noble game' and therefore maybe an appropriate metaphor. The pieces have differing attributes, functions, actual power, importance (importance and power don't coincide in chess) and for different players, depending on their playing strengths, the weighings of these different attributes will vary. I consider the king and queen to be the upperbass and midrange channels respectively, somewhat controversially one might say. Without the upperbass horn (the king) to anchor the whole system, it is a clear case of checkmate, game over whereas the midrange is where the whole magic and power of the system really resides, she is a prime determinant of the outcome of the game such is her power and dynamism. I would consider the bishop, the knight and the rook to be the upper frequencies channel (the voice of god that we can barely hear but informs our heart ), the mid-bass (he leads the charge for the lower channels, he defends and attacks although his services are not always required in equal measure) and the ULF (the solid foundation of the system) respectively. It is easy to extend the metaphor by analysing the pawns in terms of the peripheral elements that you do not dare neglect as they are truly "the soul of chess" (Philidor) but since brevity is what we seek, I will be brief...

When you start a game of chess or decide on building your multichannel horn system, you need to be mindful of the characteristics of the different pieces at your disposal but once you have opted to move a particular piece, your options are suddenly infinitely reduced - from that very first move! You can against an unseasoned player who has read all 534x10/\9 pages of analysis on the Ruy Lopez try the shock tactic of 2. f4, diverting him from his carefully regurgitated analysis, but at a certain level you are just inviting punishment and I doubt grandmaster David Bronstein (who nearly made the King's Gambit respectable again) would play it nowadays, even against you. Likewise with a horn system where a departure from the correct analysis may well feel exciting and to be praised, and will pay dividends in clubs or blitz chess, unless you are a modern Viswanathan Anand and can extend the current theoretical base, you are inviting punishment, and in all likelihood you end up not learning anything of value. Now I am no Viswanathan Anand and although I am happy to try to the best of my ability in due course to do something unique and purposeful, there is no need for me to depart from standard practice at this moment in time. So I try first of all to learn from a current master of multichannel horn systems, and if he thinks that I unthinkingly mimic his system, that's his prerogative, and I truly could not care less.

Doing something different implies for me doing something which has a tangible purpose, which extends the current state of the art and not doing something different for the sake of being different. One day maybe I will, and maybe in the many little details, the pawns which we do not talk about, but which are the soul of the game, I sow the seeds of a very different ending in my system. Time will tell.

Best regards
Rakesh

.

	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	Macondo Horns: biography...	Macondo with Pussy Eyes....	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	2	62982	05-18-2005
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»	New	The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..	Görlich again...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	30	290716	10-28-2007

	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	Macondo Horns: biography...	Macondo with Pussy Eyes....	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	2	62982	05-18-2005
»	New	Exceptional loudspeakers drivers..	Compression tweeters...	Audio Discussions Forum	34	424108	06-12-2006
»	New	The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..	Görlich again...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	30	290716	10-28-2007