Stefano, welcome to the club, not the GoodSoundClub but the club of understanding of what is going on.

The subject of drivers in Tailored Audio™ is complicated and one of the biggest problems in this complicity is to defeat the attitude of judgment enslaving. The drivers do whatever they do but the really good results come from Working with drivers. Unfortunately most of the people in audio instead of working with driver and navigating the sound of the drivers in the direction they envision do opposite: they based upon the results from the various drivers redefine the definition of reproduction expectations and consequentially they invent different “myths of addiction”. All of it from my view disqualifies most of the people who deal with different drivers to judge drivers more or less objectively. You will see in audio many different groups who swear by one or another driver and feel that their selection of drivers assures some kind of “quietly”. My dealing with many and many of those people testifies that NONE of them have archive interning objectionable sound but rather then all got a random sound  plus a fat layer of self-propaganda preventing them to look critical at own results.

The GOTO ideology I feel is very much in the same wagon. I do not know how good or bad GOTO driver are – I never had them in my own possession. However, if to presume that I know something about sound of horn inhalations then I am very confident that all of the GOTO systems out there (among what I have seen in picture) do not do well sonically. A driver is like a car’s transmission it might be good but in order to demonstrate own advantages the transmission must be imbedded into a car – a mechanism with another zillion engineering decisions. GOTO does not do it. This hors are crap and their ideas of system design are mostly foolish. All of it does not serve the good the GOTO drivers to demonstrate anything good, even if they have something good in them.

This satiation is very much spared among the addictee to any type of drivers: JBL, YL, Altec, Klangfilm, Western Electric, AL, Electro-Voice, GOTO, RCA and many others. So, when those people talk about “sound” from their drivers what that come from them is juts testimonies of loyalties to own clan – very stupid and contra-productive. Try to show up at Altec for instance forum and juts to imply about the specific sonic deficiency of the driver or the driver application that you are intimately are familiar. You will be instantly attacked by an army of angry cronies who feet that you call their child as an ugly child. As many times I ask those people why they behave like idiot not one was able to explain it to me. As many times I have visited those people’s listening rooms and familiarized myself with the actual sonic results they accomplished as many time I have witnessed a huge misbalance between the loudness of loyal screaming and the worth of the actual demonstrable Sound. You might read the following threads where  I was trying to talk about it:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=4611

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2546

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2694

About the DPoLS. The DPoLS is a very far-advanced subject and it clowns the “creme de la crème” of high-end reproduction. Unfortunately very very very very very few systems approach DPoLS (Macondo for instance do not do DPoLS). However, the familiarly of a system designer with DPoLS make a person to think and to practice the things differently. Only this is already a huge benefit, particularly in GOTO case when people do not believe in anything else besides the making of allegedly good drivers.

Yep, Stefano, it looks like we do have similar views about the subjects we touched. Let go back to exploring one of the terra incognito of compression driver – the sound of Goto.

I would insist is that to judge sound of Goto driver from the installations that I have see is worthless thing to do -all Goto installation that I have seen are time-missaligned. To listen a time-misaligned horn installation is like stepping in dog poop while you walk to a job interview or to a first date. So, I would discard my own or some people that I know who use Goto judgmental experience with their drivers. What I would be more interesting is just your subjective feedback about a sound of a single Goto MF drive in regards to a default compression driver. It is how I usually approach compression drivers…. As the “default compression driver”, as I many time said before, I usually place JBL 2440/375 driver. It is all together very popular and very common, well-balanced driver with good characteristics and good sound and I feel it is very convenient to treat the 2440 as common denominator of compression drivers capacity. I usually judge the naked drivers seeing their sweep on axis in 250Hz-330Hz round Tratrix and ~500Hz high-pass filter and just listening the sound of the row driver. If to know what to listen and to know what one would like to hear then in this very simple setting many drivers do show themselves discriminatively…

The reason I ask is because no one talk about the SOUND of Goto drivers, nether the driver owners nor the driver’s salers.   I still hope to hear from someone who has a direct experience with Gotos about the sound of those drivers…

Romy the Cat wrote:

Yep, Stefano, it looks like we do have similar views about the subjects we touched. Let go back to exploring one of the terra incognito of compression driver – the sound of Goto. The reason I ask is because no one talk about the SOUND of Goto drivers, nether the driver owners nor the driver’s salers.   I still hope to hear from someone who has a direct experience with Gotos about the sound of those drivers…

Romy the Cat wrote:

I would insist is that to judge sound of Goto driver from the installations that I have see is worthless thing to do -all Goto installation that I have seen are time-missaligned. To listen a time-misaligned horn installation is like stepping in dog poop while you walk to a job interview or to a first date.

twogoodears wrote:

Beside I'm not a Goto eGotist and I own about 7-10 years old drivers, for what I'm concerned their sound is correct, quite lean if compared to 2440 and 2420, thicker sounding -  but very, VERY detailed, quick and musical.

Anyhow, returning back to the subject of the thread - I was asking because I do have an interest to learn how Goto drivers sound. You should not be the Goto-evangelist – in fact all of them are Morons. All that I was asking is to pass your observation about the drivers. It is not a big deal that your use 7-10 years old drivers. I use 60 years old drivers- so what? There was a major advancement in sound reproduction filed during the last 2-3 years, wasn’t it?

Anyhow, Stefano, among what you said there was something interesting. You said that from your point of view GOTO are” quite lean if compared to 2440 and 2420, thicker sounding -  but very, VERY detailed, quick” May I ask you: did you try to rectify this leanness by loading the plated of your SETs harder: for instance if you use 10:1 with 2440 then to use 6:1 with GOTO? I always suspected and expected that GOTO must be “lean”. This feeling I dot from a few years back what I was playing with filed-coils and discovered that pursuing for high flux rate did killed the harmonics at the bottom of the driver (well documented at my site). Goto goes for very powerful magnets with a lot of flux – it might not be necessarily a good thing (it might be as well if some other thing is made rationally).  Anyhow, I feel that loading harder the amp might be an interesting direction to go. It would give you more harmonics with GOTO and it would be very interesting the rate with which Goto gain body of sound and loose the “quickness”. The only thing that I ma afraid that it might give the effect of a correcting low mass of MC cartridges with too shallow VTA, if you know what I mean…

Nevertheless, I think the dynamic with which GOTO would react to SET loading (if you know you SET well) will be a good indication of what doing on.

serenechaos wrote:

The closest I could come to describing the SOUND, when the source was right; (Charles King's Stellavox) & good electricity (JJ filter) was …. being exceptionally smooth

Yep, the strange smoothnes was something that I heard in 2 GOTO installations that I experienced. Serenechaos, it is interesting that you mention GOTO in context to electricity.  I think GOT) shell be super sensitive to any electrical problems. They have a lot of flux and they might have very light cones – those things die first with bad electricity. BTW, what are the JJ filters? A power devise that did not blow yet in my listening room? I feel insulted!!!

serenechaos wrote:

Yes, I feel it necessecary to include context of electricity, source, amp, and driver loading, when discussing driver sound even if (as in this case) I have to say I don't really know all the details of what they are--the details still matter I don't understand why people don't see that building amps/drivers/horns to work in the proper range, with the proper loading isn't a scam, it's just the right way of doing thngs...

Surly the amps, horns and many other aspects as not scam and not the shake oil and the people with senses between ears do understand it. Still, I do not feel that amplification and architectural decisions shell be implied in drivers evaluations, at least during the initial introduction. Of course the driver shell be powered with a proper amp for a given topology, the driver shell be properly loaded, the amps shell be properly loaded. It is no controversy what proper is loading. The contesting drivers shell be identically properly employed. Whatever the drivers demonstrate in respectfully proper operation - is their sound. Then there is the most interesting – how each diver reacts to different external conditions. You see this is the key in my view - the reaction of a driver to own sound under the same different condition but in different operation mode. This  cancels out (well I would say minimizes) all discrepancies with electricity, sources, references, amps, loadings, horning etc etc etc…

Romy the Cat wrote:

Still, I do not feel that amplification and architectural decisions shell be implied in drivers evaluations, at least during the initial introduction. Of course the driver shell be powered with a proper amp for a given topology, the driver shell be properly loaded, the amps shell be properly loaded. It is no controversy what proper is loading. The contesting drivers shell be identically properly employed. Whatever the drivers demonstrate in respectfully proper operation - is their sound. Then there is the most interesting – how each diver reacts to different external conditions. You see this is the key in my view - the reaction of a driver to own sound under the same different condition but in different operation mode. This  cancels out (well I would say minimizes) all discrepancies with electricity, sources, references, amps, loadings, horning etc etc etc… The Cat

twogoodears wrote:

…. they seem to operate in a very specialized narrow bandwidth... So, my (humble) advice - based on my direct experience - would be: if the case, try to use Goto as 4 ways, not the more common 3 ways... also if Tanaka-san is, for commercial reason I suspect, also advising and "blessing" for 2 and 3 ways systems... they simply doesn't work this way.

The clarification and revelation to the subject came to me a couple years back when I was experimenting with driving my S2 from electromagnet:

http://www.romythecat.com/LatestPosts.aspx?ThreadID=1929

What I was able to witness is that increasing of flux density leaded to unavoidable shrinking (toward to HF) the optimum operational bandwidth of driver.  As I undusted GOTO uses very high flux (2.4T if I am not mistaken). That does a good advertising for the people who have no idea what the words means but I do not think it is “good for Sound”. GOTO, while they are doing for high flux end up with super stiff suspension. It is not bad itself but this stiffness is something that I call “nervous stiffness”, when the cone not hard suspended but rather arrested in space by magnetics paralyses. Sure you can’t not drive such a driver with a bandwidth that is outside of the “magnetics paralyses”, so here is where GOTO has a solution – they say: “use 4th order crossovers”. It goes along very well with GOTO disbelieve that “humans hear phases”… 50 years ago the deaf idiots who wrote books about loudspeakers and psychoacoustic use to state that humans hear no phases. Nowadays, no one make those statements anymore as they considered as scientific heresy identical to the comment that Earth is sitting atop of 4 elephants that stay on a shell of a giant turtle….

I have to admit that there are ways to deal with “nervous stiffness” of high flux divers but… there are no voices from GOTO about it, neither about the drivers design nor about drivers Sound. GOTO looks like comfortable with the situation that they sell 10 drivers per year to the Robb Report type of customers who get from it a questionable sound and there is not further attempt to advance the results. I do not think about it too hard as I do not use GOTO drivers but it does not prevent me from having a position on the subject.

twogoodears wrote:

I re-read an half-page chapter in French from Jean Hiraga's "Les Hautparleur" essay, concerning time-alignement and phase... in this quite misconsidered and often unconcerned parameter, I more and more carefully weighted Hiraga's words, where he says that in horns time-alignement you, I simplify to be better understood, you must go "fractal" - i.e. 1/2 inch plus a salt grain;-) because it's not simply a matter of phisically aligning the diaphragms of, say, tweeter, mid and woofer, but "finding" the "fractal" point where you hear the best, most natural sound in yr. VERY system.

I did not read this article (I can’t not read French) but if it was what you described then I disagree with what  Jean Hiraga stated. There is nothing in proper aligning none-physically or mysterious that would require any “finding the fractal point by ears”. You might find alignment by ears or you ming find alignment by measurement (many techniques are available) but I did not see any single instance where the measurable and the auditable time alignment crated any contradiction (of cause if one knows what to listen for). Jean Hiraga suppose to be good a engineer and it should not be foe him an issues to measure the time arrival. Why he feels that anything else should be invented and why he feels that “most natural sound” should be introduced to the very simple subject of time arrival is beyond me. Particularly if the cases where the channels are aligned do result “hear the best and the most natural sound” in 100% of all cases.  Perhaps Mr. Hiraga is trying to listen for wrong things?

twogoodears wrote:

I only recently began to move drivers and horns and, while only some weeks ago, I was positioning speakers/ways in an aesthetically/functional (due to weight and bulkiness) way - like 98 percent of people worldwide using these speakers, now I almost only use ears... now I feel as I did "before" like audio shops owners back in '70s when they applied their coolness with those silly "waves" on equalizers on the shelves to impress young audio lovers!!!

Welcome to the state of the lost virginity. In fact the expresses of the 98 percent of people worldwide are irrelevant as if you know how time-misaligned sound horns then you would automatically discard whatever the 98% of morons out there do or say. BTW, I do not think that the alignment “only by ear” is right way to do the thing. You need to really know what you do and have a LOT of experience to play with alignment in order to do so. Still, you will get much better result with simple measurement, confirming the correctness of alignment by ears.

twogoodears wrote:

The actual "best sound" from my system appears wrong on the paper...

I have difficulty to visualize it. Care to post a picture?

Romy the Cat wrote:

Welcome to the state of the lost virginity. In fact the expresses of the 98 percent of people worldwide are irrelevant as if you know how time-misaligned sound horns then you would automatically discard whatever the 98% of morons out there do or say. BTW, I do not think that the alignment “only by ear” is right way to do the thing. You need to really know what you do and have a LOT of experience to play with alignment in order to do so. Still, you will get much better result with simple measurement, confirming the correctness of alignment by ears The Cat

Stefano.

I think you are confusing two things - moving channels and time alignment. Moving channels changes the relation between channels and room. It is powerful and expressive tool. Time alignment is the unanimous arriving of wave front to ears of listener. The time alignment is not the expressive, creative or artistic tool – it is an absolutely mandatory from my view minimum without which any further attempts should not be even considered. I have a lot talk about time alignment at my site…

I would jumps off the subject of time alignment in thread as it is kind of GOTO thread… and the GOTO manufacture and GOTO users do not believe in time-aliment. The idiotic position that GOTO has about the time-aliment is one of the major reasons why I never considered the GOTO drivers seriously for myself.