GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - If it was that bad I would not keep using the PP

06-15-2013

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1176
Post ID:	19504
Reply to:	19503

Very reasonable

Paul, you provide constant criticism of PP but frankly the longer you go in this subject the more your remarks off the wall. No one claim anything besides you being absolutely not familiar with neither products nor with results but keep expressing, trust me, absolutely irrelevant skepticism. What the difference other fool or me at that matter say. We have people even at this board who can’t deal with kindergarten group loop and who complain the PP+ made their wife’s cactuses to fade. If you want to be competent on the subject then get to yourself the same PP+ (I hope they still sell with 30 days money back) and draw your own conclusion. This is not the thread about PP regenerators but about electricity and you might use whatever you want but to express criticism you need to be ether familiar with the product or to be have a deep and successful practical experience with the field. I presume you have none of them and I do not feel that reciting the comments of others you will get any result or experience.

Scooter, yes what you say is very reasonable. Of cause I will not allow it to be a birthday present. There is another feeling that drives me to snatch this units – I am a skeptical person and I am a realist. My realism and experience in audio suggests me that if any company if they get good product will unavoidably screw this product up. I can give a laundry list of events when company hit the great products and than spoiled anything. I do not say that PP will have the same fate but why they better than anybody else?

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-16-2013

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1177
Post ID:	19505
Reply to:	19504

Amy and Regenerator, almost like the Peter and Wolf.

Last night I put wify in listening chair, insisted her do not slide in the couch into her typical "monkey on a tree" pose and asked her to listen some sound. I put the slow opening of Merlitons dance from Nutcracker and played to her a few times, flipping the PP3000+ in and out of bypass mode. Amy clearly acknowledged the difference but when I asked her to describe to me the difference I was very surprised. The poor creature is a absolutely not familiar with the audio lingo and she begun to explain to me the deference she heard it from a position of a sting player. It was fan to hear from her that in regeneration mode the sound was more "resonant".... The fanny part was in the end. I asked her what type sound she prefers. She suggested that any of them was fine with her. This is very much what we spoke with de Charlus a few days back:

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=19488

The sound for musicians is not a final destination but juts a canvas upon wich they paint music. For us, the audio guys, sound we get, would it be from amps, speaker or regenerators, is a final outcome and we hardly even can change it. For musicians sound they hear is just an input parameter into their intentions. Hearing one or another type of sounds from the the regenerator Amy does not recognize it as “result” but rather she recognize it as a new conditions for her viola and she would be able to play the same music but differently if tone or dynamic range of her instrument would be altered by characteristic of let say the power regenerator.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-16-2013

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drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #:	1178
Post ID:	19507
Reply to:	19505

Musicians and the Sound

Romy the Cat wrote:

Amy clearly acknowledged the difference but when I asked her to describe to me the difference ... and she begun to explain to me the deference she heard it from a position of a sting player. It was fan to hear from her that in regeneration mode the sound was more "resonant".... The fanny part was in the end. I asked her what type sound she prefers. She suggested that any of them was fine with her...The sound for musicians is just an input parameter into their intentions.

Well, Romy, it is just as I said, I have the same experience with Michelle. She can very clearly tell the difference, and can always correctly identify which is which, but relates to it more as "the humidity is high and they need to adjust the horns as such, etc." It is interesting to see and fun to see the orientation of the trained musician's ear, and also re-assuring that the things we hear are accurate...

06-16-2013

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	1179
Post ID:	19508
Reply to:	19507

Full circle round and round

Adrian: Well, Romy, it is just as I said, I have the same experience with Michelle. She can very clearly tell the difference, and can always correctly identify which is which, but relates to it more as "the humidity is high and they need to adjust the horns as such, etc." It is interesting to see and fun to see the orientation of the trained musician's ear, and also re-assuring that the things we hear are accurate...

All that is true enough but it seems to be falling into the category of a difference that is not a big deal which again mirrors what other people have said concerning AC regenerators (and PP) on dedicated power lines for the audio system. I have had musicians listen occasionally to my non-state-of-the-art system and if their home playback is very mediocre their reaction is far more pronounced. No they are not fooled it's real but they don't say that it's an inconsequential difference to them like they might with just doing tube rolling etc.

06-16-2013

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drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #:	1180
Post ID:	19509
Reply to:	19505

Pure Power and Musicians

Steverino wrote:
All that is true enough but it seems to be falling into the category of a difference that is not a big deal which again mirrors what other people have said concerning AC regenerators ... I have had musicians listen occasionally to my system and if their home playback is very mediocre their reaction is far more pronounced. No they are not fooled it's real but they don't say that it's an inconsequential difference...

I think it is a bit off the mark, frankly, so to clarify what I said:

Firstly, the musicians approach the sounds made by the audio system in a cognitively different way; it is a different mind-view. So, to ask "Is this a big deal or not?" is not quite correct, because the musician's mind is actually looking at different things. It is a bit like, let us say you are looking an oil painting and you are trying different light bulbs for displaying it. And you ask your artist friend to help pick the bulb. They maybe pick out a bulb that has a very blue hue. You object by saying clearly the other bulb has more true-to-color spectrum, to which they reply: Oh I know but the blue bulb really brings out the brushstrokes. When I see those, I understand the way it was painted and what the artist was up to far better.

Also, I do not think Pure Power regenerator is necessarily not a big deal, or I would have not been waiting unhappily for years to get my replacement unit. I would have just got something else, given up, and moved on.

Adrian

06-16-2013

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	1181
Post ID:	19510
Reply to:	19509

Ships crossing in the night

I was only talking about AC regenerators and PP in the context of a dedicated powerline for the audio system. If one does Not have a dedicated powerline you will not find a post from me saying the difference is no big deal. If you do have a dedicated powerline and you find that the PP (or other AC regenerators) makes a big difference I would find that noteworthy since I haven't encountered that view much. I merely point out that the reactions I'm reading here sound like musicians (Ms Kitten etc) talking about audio in their terms but not going Wow.

06-17-2013

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1182
Post ID:	19513
Reply to:	19497

The bypass operation observations

Well, during the last 2 days with new PP300 I used the Bypass button for perhaps 12 times. The init is sitting under the rock and to engage the Bypass I need not only to bend my fat body into indecent position but to hold myself into that position for 5 second, pushing 2 (it was two!!!) uncomfortable, deep sited in a front panel buttons. This is so badly thought!!! I in fact would not even need a remote control but rather a wired remote switch that does exists in many other audio components, allowing them to be controlled remotely (Lamm for instance allows to turn the power amp from his preamps). I very much would like to have a remote wired switch that would run PP3000+ ll time in bypass unit I turn the power amp on. Would it be nice to have 12+ jack in the end to which I might connect a pedal from any pro audio shop and to turn the bypass mode my just hitting the pedal?

Some numbers. The power amps with frond-end run 1100W driver from PP3000+. The same load switching to bypass mode doe 970W. That makes PP3000+ to be 88% efficient, at least into my type of heavy input chock load. I wonder: with my typical use of playback how much electricity I would save a year if I use regeneration only during my critical listening? I am sure with the save electricity it would be powered a medium size Nicaragua town… Also, I it would be interesting to know if bypass operation bypass the protection that the unit most likely has. As I understand the in and out filters are still in path during the bypass mode but how about the fuses or any other surge protection breakers?

I have an interesting event. After good 15 hours of non-use (it means that Milq’s input chokes were completely discharged) I turn the bypass mode down and turned the power amps. As the Milq begin to charge the chokes the new PP went to temporarily bypass (old less powerful unit never did it) and everything went back to regeneration. The unit and the system were fine but I noted that the SpeedCook oven in the kitchen begin to show gibberish. It has a large display with all fancy information about type of cooking but now it was down. I rebooted the SpeedCook oven and it was fine. I do not insist that it was the result of PP input noise but I own this unit for 2 year and I have had any display problems. I do not think that it PP-related per se and it has fully to do with very high current my power amp suck during the initial charge. Still, of I put them in old unit or open walls then the power amps when start juts for a fraction of second dim the lights in my house (200A feed).With new PP it looks it throw some “radiation” when it passes high current and switches to bypass.

Anyhow, the Sound is still wonderful.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-17-2013

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Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #:	1183
Post ID:	19514
Reply to:	19513

Bypass

I have two of the pp+1500's in for review,and had Romy's 3000 before Richard brought it to Romy, and have to agree with Romy that the units surpass the old ones for sound quality.

I don't know how much current his amps pull on turn on but I was running just two of the 1500's with 20 channels of amplification including two large subwoofer amps and 4 Class A SET's and sundry source components turning on all at once and didn't have any problems with them going into bypass. Also, they were both running normally at 75% power, and on peaks I noticed that the 1500's were running at beyond 100% with no problem. I have since put the subs and rear channel amps on an old pp 2000, so the 1500's are now running at a steady 50% as all amps connected now to them are Class A. The 3000+ units are supposed to be able to sustain 200% peaks for 10 seconds, or about 6000 v-a, so Romy's must be sucking more than that on turn-on of his amps, so this could be alleviated by plugging in the amps separately. As far as bending over, I am heavier and older than Romy by a considerable margin and have not found this to be a problem as I placed my units on top of a shelf :-)

I compared the sound of the new units in bypass compared to the old units running normally and they were very close with the new ones having slightly tighter bass and less noise. In full mode there's no comparison. Thus, as far as the bypass problem, it really isn't one for 99.9% of buyers as only reviewers need to throw the bypass switch more than once or twice a day, if at all as one would be crazy to listen to the units in bypass except for elevator music time, or to keep source equipment warmed up. So I don't think the units need a remote, or peddle for the average person.

As far as the speed cook problem, I also have found an anomaly. For some reason every time I turn on a light in the room I get a pop out of the rear amps. Probably a grounding or RF issue, but cannot understand why.

All in all, these units surpass the old ones, have been stable here for two weeks, have survived long listening session giving greater than 100% power output with no problems. Full review to come in August at www.enjoythemusic. I'll be selling my old pp 2000's if anybody want to buy them for $1500 each.
Bill

06-17-2013

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1184
Post ID:	19515
Reply to:	19514

The purpose of bypass mode.

Bill wrote:
I compared the sound of the new units in bypass compared to the old units running normally and they were very close with the new ones having slightly tighter bass and less noise. In full mode there's no comparison. Thus, as far as the bypass problem, it really isn't one for 99.9% of buyers as only reviewers need to throw the bypass switch more than once or twice a day, if at all as one would be crazy to listen to the units in bypass except for elevator music time, or to keep source equipment warmed up.

It is exectly to keep the equipment warmed and it has nothing to do with reviewing or comparetive objectves. I keep my DAW, my DACs, sometimes my ADC and sometime one of my tuners on all time. There is absolutly no need to keep it in full regeneratin while I do not listen playback. This is all purpose of bypass mode.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-17-2013

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1185
Post ID:	19516
Reply to:	19514

Topology...

Bill wrote:
I don't know how much current his amps pull on turn on but I was running just two of the 1500's with 20 channels of amplification including two large subwoofer amps and 4 Class A SET's and sundry source components turning on all at once and didn't have any problems with them going into bypass. Also, they were both running normally at 75% power, and on peaks I noticed that the 1500's were running at beyond 100% with no problem. I have since put the subs and rear channel amps on an old pp 2000, so the 1500's are now running at a steady 50% as all amps connected now to them are Class A. The 3000+ units are supposed to be able to sustain 200% peaks for 10 seconds, or about 6000 v-a, so Romy's must be sucking more than that on turn-on of his amps, so this could be alleviated by plugging in the amps separately.

The loading current is not as much property of amplifiers amount but rather the amplifier topology. The fact that it is SET does not say anything unfortunately. Still, the same amps with old PP did not go bypass but new one do sometimes. If the new units are more powerfull then the reson migh be in some kind of miscalibration of bypass sensitivity on new units?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-17-2013

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PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009

Post #:	1186
Post ID:	19517
Reply to:	19516

Using Bypass

We did not intend bypass mode to be used as an energy saving technique - but Romy is correct - it can do that. However if the units is on standby with no load (all components off) the power usage is between 7 and 15 watts and obviously switching to bypass will have no appreciable effect. If some components are operating - say 100 watts worth - the power use would be 100 watts on bypass instead of 112 watts on full regeneration.
Of course on full regeneration mode isolation from utility events is 100%. Bypass mode makes the trade off that surge protection is only as good as the basic input surge protection. I, personally, would not make that trade.
p.s. The PurePower unit always starts operation in bypass mode for 10 seconds - so if turning the PurePower on also turns on the system there is a 10 second bypass period to absorb any start up inrush current. The bypass will not operate if the utility AC is significantly out of spec.

06-17-2013

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1187
Post ID:	19518
Reply to:	19513

The PP regenerators, a different view.

I decided eventually to leave this new PP3000+ with me. I quite like it. Probably I will sell one of my older regenerators; I have 2000 and 3000 for $2K and $2.5K, if somebody are interested than get in touch with me.

Playing with the PP regenerators I have to confess that I have a lastly different view about them. We all know what they do and naturally we feel that they improve sound by providing better quality of power. Well, as today I do have slightly different view. I do not think that they fix the bad power from the wall, even though they do regenerate a new fundamental wave. I would rather feel that somehow PP precondition power to make our audio electronics to sound better. I think that PP still subjected to fluctuation of electricity quality. When you use PP and electrify is bad (sound wise) you will have some worsening of sound and when electricity is good then you have all together better sound. The amplitude of quality fluctuation of cause with PP is humongously lower then without PP but the fluctuation still does exist. The contribution of PP to sound is also very vast, regardless the sound of original electricity. All of it makes me to feel that PP is rather some kind of PS pre-conditioner. Regardless what it is I can testify that one I hear my playback with PP+ it is hard to go back. Well, I am a victim of it…

Do I hear any negative aspects of PP+? It is depends of what my expectations are. If my expectations are to make my playback completely unaffected from fluctuation of electricity quality then I might say that PP+ does have room for improvements. Perhaps I need to try some kind of other devises before or after PP+ to accomplish his goal. However, in my view this is NOT what PP does. What is does is greatly, very greatly reducing the harm that I associate with bad electrify and does make my playback so sound “addictively better” ™.

What PP+ does in basic with is drop the whole range of sound much lower, not accenting bass but rather losing all superficial overtones and it does it without losing the lower bass structure. PP does not do it as a tone control but it does it internal with the each individual sound. Perhaps I am ignorant but from what I have seen in audio it is absolutely unparalleled duty and I very much like it. What it has to do with electricity? Hmmm, I do not know, perhaps it has very little to do with electricity….

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-18-2013

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drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #:	1188
Post ID:	19519
Reply to:	19518

Electricity and sound

Romy the Cat wrote:
I would rather feel that somehow PP precondition power to make our audio electronics to sound better. I think that PP still subjected to fluctuation of electricity quality... What it has to do with electricity? Hmmm, I do not know, perhaps it has very little to do with electricity….

Agreed, and I would say that it is inevitable that PP will have some fluctuation in output because it is by its nature connected to the wall electricity. This recalls the rebuttal to Descartes' theory of Dualism, namely that if a Soul lacks material substance, how then can it act upon the Body in any way?

I would go beyond this to say that, again, it is more than just a sine wave output. This is one goal, but we should not forget that current flow and voltage potential are just a couple ways of measuring the mass movement of a sea of electrons; and like measuring just the waves of the ocean, it is insufficient to understand the nature of seawater. Likewise, this sea of electrons can be shaped and tempered in many ways to create the perfect medium to reveal the Sound.

Adrian

06-18-2013

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1189
Post ID:	19522
Reply to:	19513

More about Bypass Mode

I need to admit that as time goes by I feel less need for Bypass Mode. Not only because it is uncomfortable to use but also because I feel that it implemented kind of with wrong logic in PP. The unit in Bypass Mode does fine bypass but it lives playback vulnerable for power interruption. If you pull power cord or if your power in the wall blink then your connected audio components will be rebooted. If you have any mission critical element that powered by PP ( I do) then they are absolutely unprotected from UPS stand point in bypass mode. One might think that Bypass Mode should eliminate the UPS operation but I do not think so. If I was the one who wrote the PP’s software then I would make somehow a provision that if the unit detected that incoming power is off then the Bypass Mode shall be disengaged and the unit would switch to buttery operation. Considering the uncomfortable control of Bypass Mode and not too indicative indication I kind of feel that this type of Bypass Mode is less relevant then I initially stressed.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

07-07-2013

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1191
Post ID:	19650
Reply to:	2931

EVO3 Super Titan.

I read it twice and I still do not get what it is.

http://www.isoteksystems.com/cgi-bin/products.pl?id=29

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/isotek_evo3_super_titan.htm

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

07-26-2013

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1192
Post ID:	19743
Reply to:	19490

Audiolics Anonymous about PP+

Enjoy the Music just published Bill Gaw’s write up about the new PP+:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0813/aa_chapter_165.htm

There is not a lot of information in there about PP’s sound, more logistics about PP company and products.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-23-2013

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1194
Post ID:	20078
Reply to:	2931

That is strange: noise.

I made the 543^rd remodeling on the Opera room and move the video playback equipment to the new, I hope the last location. As I connected everything into PP2000 as it use to be (not PP2000+) but older not “Plus” version than I have some light MF buzzing from loudspeakers. There is nothing wrong with the PP2000 as I use it for my main system for long time with absolutely silent operation. Now with only DVD player, Dish receiver, preamp and power amp I have noise. All grounds are lifted and I wonder where the loop is coming from. I will look into it further but it is kind of strange.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-24-2013

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1195
Post ID:	20079
Reply to:	20078

Oh, my God, that faulty and noisy PP2000 stokes again!

Romy the Cat wrote:
I made the 543^rd remodeling on the Opera room and move the video playback equipment to the new, I hope the last location. As I connected everything into PP2000 as it use to be (not PP2000+) but older not “Plus” version than I have some light MF buzzing from loudspeakers. There is nothing wrong with the PP2000 as I use it for my main system for long time with absolutely silent operation. Now with only DVD player, Dish receiver, preamp and power amp I have noise. All grounds are lifted and I wonder where the loop is coming from. I will look into it further but it is kind of strange.

I would like to point out the post above as relatively important for the folks who use PP2000 as reported that it has noise. Now I have noise and on surface the noise dose come for PP2000. I have just 4 pieces of equipment that are absolutely silent from wall but then I plug them in identical configuration to PP2000 then they do have noise from speakers. Obviously it is PP2000 fault. Even despite the fact that the very same unit worked in my main system for 2 year but now it has noise and presumably it is “broken” and needs to be send back to Pure Power to “fix”. Well, I think that this is all crap and there is nothing wrong with my PP2000, even though the noise is there and I cannot get rid of it for now. I am very sure that there is something that I am overlooking in this very simple configuration that is responsible for the loop, I just need to find that something. I will be looking deeper into the reasoning within the next few days and will post findings.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-24-2013

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	1197
Post ID:	20081
Reply to:	20079

Blame it on the remodeling

Are you sure the remodeling didn't do it? I assume you mean you moved it back into the remodeled room.One time some years ago I was in a recording studio and wanted to use my Millenia mic preamp into the ADC. So I asked them to turn off the mixing board and I plugged the Millenia into the studio wall plug. Hummmmmmmmmmmmm. We turn the mixer back on. Silence. We turn it off. Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I ended up having to run power cables into the booth and plug the preamp in there. Blessed Silence.

If it's not the remodeling have you tried turning each device off one at a time?

09-25-2013

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1199
Post ID:	20083
Reply to:	20081

So far is no good.

I spent good hour trying to configure and re-configure the system in order to get rid the loop noise. Ironically nothing worked still. I have no noise if I run CD played directly to poser amp, with all of them directly plugged to PP2000 and all grounds on PP2000 outs are lifted. However, when I plug a preamp, with is not connected to anything else besides the CD player then I get the noise. This is very very interesting and I do not have a solution yet. I did not have time last night to look further into it as Amy was watching in the Opera room the “Master and Margarita” on our new big screen:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Master-Margarita-ENGLISH-SUBTITLES/dp/B000EANSXM

Neither I nor she was happy with English subtitles and I explained to her that it was because that horrible PP2000 regenerator delays the subtitle on the screen. She told me that I need to get rid of PP2000 and instead to buy or write a book “Audio Neuroticism for dummies”…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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