drdna wrote:

Well, I think the short answer is yes. What the people over at Technical Support have told me is that this is due to the power supply design of the amplifiers that are being driven by the PP2000 and that it seems to be characteristic of certain types of circuit configurations such as a low powered SET amplifier driving a high efficiency horn loudspeaker. They say this is not the typical stereo set-up and they did not test this when they originally designed the PP2000.

I think that this explanation they gate to you is completely bogus. My PP2000 drives 19 loads with all imaginary PS circuit configurations. I also have high efficiency loudspeakers and I have absolutely no noise of any kind. So, I think that it is not the design problem in PP2000 but some kind of bug that they have in circuit that they overlooked since they produced the production run the happened to be I bought. I am not kidding – I have absolutely no unreasonable mechanical noise from nether the unit nor from loudspeaker. If DC is nulled out then it is absolutely problem free. I know that I sound as I am gloating but it is what it is….

drdna wrote:

Now, they say they have got this kind of circuit set up in their stereo testing lab and have replicated the buzzing results. Each time I call them they say that they are working on finding a solution to this problem and "getting close" -- but it has been almost a year now with no end in sight.

Adrian, it is how they work you need to accept it. I have once in a month conversation with them about my “fuzziness” and they reported that they found the problem and found the cure. It was 6 month ago when they told me about it for a first time, presumably the will send some kind of fix to test in a week, or month, or who knows… Sometimes I call them and they do not even remember what we were taking the last time - it is almost insulting. It is the way how they operate. Still, somehow they slowly do better things and I am sure that soon or later they will send me the fix for my “fuzziness” problem. You just need to keep bother them, relentlessly bother them….

drdna wrote:

Probably too late for me to return it at this point.

With all my negativism about their slow moving progress I have to admit that I never heard from them a comment that my unit is out of warranty or something like this, but I never intended to return it ether. I think that if it is what you worry then you need to make sure the you initial claim about your defect would be with a return period and you then shall be save. If I like the sound of the unit but it has some noise that they feel they will fix then you need to negotiate the return and warranty policy. Again, it never was a problem with me and they acted very polite in this manner.

I have to admit that I do not believe in the “buzzing” problem as you all described. The buzzing you have reasons but no one told those reasons. What buzz, why it buzz.. no one told it concussively yet. What the fundamental and this buzz? At which condition it buzzes? What the measurements are? The expansions of the level of “characteristic of certain types of circuit configurations” I would reject as bogus and not sane. What certain types? Why? Will it buzz if you decouple the regenerator with isolation transformer? How are you planning to debug it is it has no date to interpret what is going on?

Maybe it was easier for an individual to work with APS before they got the great reviews and stepped up production?  Now they have all they can do to fill the orders (and invent new products, of course...).

Romy, I believe you got a solution to your own problems exactly and specifically because you did a lot of their work for them, and they met you part way partly because of this, and also because you make sure your voice is heard, far and wide.

As a company like this evolves, they might actually get better at addressing specific, individual problems; but probably not.

It's rather more likely that they are mostly focused on selling, making, and shipping units while trying to keep a lid on their operating expenses (especially back-end expenses...) and paying down debt.

All the questions you ask are good ones; but they are also the sort of questions that only the most OCD nutcases could be expected to answer.  And furthermore, APs have no right whatsoever to expect this sort of input from their retail customers, based on any of their literature that I have read.

Of all the people who buy one of these units based on your glowing recommendation, I'm guessing one in ten - maximum - has any idea at all where to so much as begin in terms of seriously and rigorously isolating and diagnosing the sorts of very specific problems you have just outlined.  People are never going to read the caveats that pepper this site, but they will ever continue to browse for "suggestions" along the lines of the Stereophile Recommended Components List.

The upside for APS is that most of these shoppers will never even realize that anything is wrong unless the unit hums, or explodes.

And clearly APS have learned how to deal with the hummers.

Best regards,
Paul S

Paul,

You certainly have an attitude toward the subject and I have no idea why. The subject of this thread, or put in this way - the subject of my interest, is how to deal with electricity problem and how to provide a playback with stable (sound-wise) and good sounding electricity. I care less if it is APS, or anybody else and I care less how many units they sole and how many people decided to buy this or another unit. My interests in audio are immensely egocentric and all that I care is how to interests of my own sound and my own interests about it. There is nothing else. I bought my first unit for a full price from their dealer. When they sent me the last PP1050 unit (#6) it did not work and was sitting not working for months and months. Then when the PP2000 become available I did propose that since my PP1050 was virtually new and never operate properly then I would pay the difference and get the PP2000 – they claimed that PP2000 will not blow. During all 1.5 years frustration I had with PP I insisted that they must not return my money and give me something that sounded like the very first unit I had.

I really do not care how much people buy the APS units – I have no financial, intellectual or spiritual benefits from it. I would like more people share the know-how about the ways how to get better sound from this thing but from what I see anybody talks sensibly about the APS sound, not to mention, that knowing myself, I probably will discard the experiences of others. I do encourage the APS to make 3000W model and truly do not give a shit how many of them they sell. I have my own needs, I looking for a mechanism to address them and I truly do not care how my solution will work out with others. I do not see that you see many “recommendations” coming from me, I have many reasons why I do not do and one of them is that it is too damn not interesting for me. I do not remember that “recommended” APS. I do insist that it is the only devise If  does what I want a power devise to do with sound. Is it as recommendation or motivation to buy for others? First of all I do not care and second I have enough information at my site to present a whole picture of many subjects. Do not ask me and do not balm me. Change the interests of sound, if you find that some of my moves are reasonable for you then feel free to experiment for yourself. It is your sound the you are trying to make, not mine. I do not need friends, collaborators or ass kissers on audio. I do not need anyone who read this site to buy the ASP unit. What I would like to have– is somebody point out what the specific in his/her view shortcoming of the APS sound and how they consider overcoming the defined sonic shortcomings. That what I would consider a change – not the dull verbal embellishment of the subject how good or bad the APS Company is. What is it - BBB consumer report of the site that deals with Sound?

I can tell you something more, Paul, I do not extend a lot of credit to the ASP people in terms of Sound. I do not think that what they do is conscious and cognizant. They got some very amorphous grip of good result and they are not sure where they might scare good Sound. The engineering part of gone in China and I do not think that the Chinese folks truly have idea what it all truly for. I think nether APS peoples, nor do Chinese who made APS, nor me have any idea why the APS sound as it is.  I might understand in way the APS – they have something that more or less work and sable and they do not what to fuck it up…

Anyhow, as I said – I am bit surprised that people have APS for months, keep bitching about buzz but made no affords to investigate where is come from. Are you expecting that APS will bring you a solution on a plate? What will you do if your unit will sound like shit after this? Russians says the saving of sinking people is the business of the people who are submerging … at least they need to scream “Help!” and wave those hands….

Beav wrote:

I ran quite a few types of gear with the 2000 I tested.   It was quiet as a mouse with all of them.  So if you're having that kind of high frequency buzzing coming from the unit itself I'd say it needs to be returned and looked at by APS.  I'd lay odds they'll solve the problem or give you a new unit, and that you won't hear that buzzing.   Good luck.

Yes, I should try to stay focused, here.

It is indeed very true and very important to remember that the subject of this thread is not and never will be - I hope - APS, or any other "brand" -  of anything.

I suppose I tend to confuse APS not only with my own frustrations but also with the whore-mongers, just because they misrepresent themselves.

But they are hardly unique in this, after all; and I actually do know to be ready to take my lumps when I try to simply buy any solution.


Germaine to the thread, most of the electricity in the nation has moved or is moving over to the "Smart Grid" system.

Blah, blah, blah, blah...

Around here, this has meant that the electriity has not been as bad  -  nor as good  -  as it used to be...

So, what else is new?

Best regards,
Paul S

Romy the Cat wrote:

I do not remember that “recommended” APS. I do insist that it is the only devise If  does what I want a power devise to do with sound. Is it as recommendation or motivation to buy for others?

Romy the Cat wrote:

Anyhow, as I said – I am bit surprised that people have APS for months, keep bitching about buzz but made no affords to investigate where is come from. Are you expecting that APS will bring you a solution on a plate?

drdna wrote:

I hate to respond to this kind of comment, which is a simple logical failure, but, okay I will, since there is some news. Just to clear this up, simply because you have not had an issue, does not mean that an issue does not exist, and that this must be a defective unit.  This is especially true when the company has already identified the problem, stated that it requires a relatively rare component setup to get the buzzing, but that they have reproduced it in their lab.

Just to clear this up, simply because you have not had an issue, does not mean that an issue does not exist, and that this must be a defective unit.

Last night I have an interesting “event”. I accidently unplugged the PP from power line and did not know about it. In a couple hours I realized that the lights on my equipment that all time on are off. So, the PP buttery was drained out. Interesting, apparently the PP does not alarm that the buttery is about to be run out. This is a standard practice with all UPS devises, I am sure it has built in PP but presume the ASP disconnected the buzzer. Also, I wonder if the PP runs out of power gently and drop the load until it goes to let say 5% of full charge or it continue to discharge the buttery to absolute zero volts (wish is not good with Pb buttery). It is not that I am very concern but I would love to have that “5% of full charge” buzzer to blast off.

Also, that was very interesting: when I put the power cable back to power line then the first minutes the PP was hissing and screaming like crazy. I was presuming that it was completely drained buttery being violently charged, that is kind of odd as it shell have a current stabilizer. I do not know when it stopped – I went to sleep, but this morning the PP was back to it silent operation. It was a first time I ran PP into a deep discharge.

Maxzimum,

I have written many times about it. Read the thread. I do not use the PP load meter and have my own. If you are talking about noise then you need to be much more specific than that. Anyhow my unit has no noise that I would worry.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Last night I have an interesting “event”. I accidently unplugged the PP from power line and did not know about it. Also, that was very interesting: when I put the power cable back to power line then the first minutes the PP was hissing and scheming like crazy.

Hello !
I have a question for the APS users regarding the unit's operation...
Is the battery system an ACTIVE component of the double conversion process (AC - DC - AC) or is there just for back-up purposes in the case of a blackout event ?
In other words...does the unit start and operate normally WITHOUT the batteries considering the unit is plugged into the wall socket ?
Thank you !

Guys,

you do not need to ask this question to anybody else but the APS themselves. Would it make sense to ask a manufactures about the principles of their products operation?

I would certainly not talk to the APS re-salers as they even further submerged in a depth of clueless. Saying it, I have to admit with all honesty that I am not sure that APS people themselves know, as least those I dealt with. I did ask this question a few days back and the answer was not definitive. I did also asked about the problem with noise that you guys had (I was worrying that I might get your noise if I change something). The explanation that they gave to me was ground loop related and it was absolutely ridicules. When we were trying to debug the noise that Adrian had we went over lifting ground on Adrian’s power amps and the rest components he plugged into the PP2000. Adrian reported that it did change the noises. If so, then what the ground loop the ASP is talking about?

I do not know. It is all does not make send to me and I do understand that it might be frustrated. I have absolutely no problem problems with APS sound but in my desire just to understand some things the confusing information makes me annoyed. I could imagine how it would be if I actually have a problem…

Petrasescu_Lucian, the question how the use butters is very good one. In the way how it shall be the oscillator and the amplifier shall be driven from the buttery. While the buttery power the things it being charged. This is why the design use led buttery as it might be infinitely overcharged. In this configuration the buttery acts as a phenomenal a few farads capacitor that deepens the APS decoupling from the grid. However, APS could make the buttery not to be in pass when the unit runs from mains. Only God know how it is gone in the current revision of APS. I know it is somehow different as the PP2000 can work without buttery but the PP1050 does not. I am not sure that APS understand the difference as I took for me time to explain it to them… after which I still had not definitive answer.  Perhaps I was taking to wrong people, I do not know… If I need the answers more than I do then I would figure it out myself tracing the APS passes but frankly I do not what even to open my unit as it work great and knowing my history with former 5 ASP units I do not want to spoil my luck.

This weekend I was told that there is a new power conditioner out there: Dmitri from Running Springs Audio. I never heard the company and have no idea that they are, what they do and what the stand for.

A quick search lead me to number of positive comments about Dmitri on line and the Robert Harley’s review the “The Absolute Sound” this year.

http://www.avguide.com/review/tested-running-springs-audio-dmitri-ac-power-conditioner

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?raccs&1245823401&read

It does not look that any of the people who say anything about Dmitri mention the theory of the operation. The Running Springs Audio’s site also does not give a clear idea what they do:

http://www.runningspringsaudio.com/technology.htm

http://www.runningspringsaudio.com/philosophy.htm

http://www.runningspringsaudio.com/techinfo.htm

It is not mandatory and I might accept the concept of “black box” – after all it is only Sound the matters. The experience with my Avicenna Regenerator that out a prefer power from all perspective but has no impact to sound did threw me off…

I read the Robert Harley review and after I did it as realized how desperately I miss my “beloved” Srajan Ebaen. Srajan makes good pictures, tell stories how wonderful the company’s secretary dog is, then discuss briefly the problem of poodle breeding in Nicaragua and the “review” is done. With all Moronity of this approach Srajan made a very smart move do not even write about sound or about the things that are matter. This is VERY smart as he is killing two birds with one stone:  he does not expose to readers that he is a fucking Moron who has not idea about Sound but the  manufactures feel that they were reviewed, hence leaving for Srajan the opportunity to extort his typical fees-benefits. With all idiocy of this Srajan’s reviewing I kind of turn to like and I take Srajan’s articles as not more than new snippets.

Robert Harley wants to write an “analyses review”, putting himself in some kind authoritarian position to judge the Dmitri’s sonic benefit. The fact that Mr. Harley year after year just xeroxing the same audiophile brain structured, high-impact intended colloquialism is irrelevant. The absolute same semantics he used about a few power devises he “revered” in past: Equitech, Monster, Shunyata, Adept and a few others. Those devised sounded like shit but the goal was accomplished and many brown tracks went to delivery – the well-oiled mechanism of audio reviewing-distribution acted flawlessly. Still, if the cheerleader Robert Harley raises her cheerleader skirt too high and you are unwillingly see under the skirt the dirty underwear and ugly harry legs then it is not necessary mean that the game will be bad… so, who knows…

The comments of the people who said about the Dmitri’s power conditioner are interesting, primary about bass. What is necessary is to learn what they mean by bass. Robert uses Wilson Alexandria and Spectral DMA-360 amps. Wilson is 4th order band-pass, has very good mid bass but very questionable lower bass.  Spectral 360 has very low but very mechanical bass. So, it might be interning what is Robert’s definition of good bass and how Dmitri’s might interact with this Robert’s bass. The Audiogon guy runs Magnepan with Martin Logan Subwoofers powered by Pass and he listening jazz. Yep, the view of this guy about bass is something that I value as much as I value the views of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad about history…

With all that said it looks everyone notices that Dmitri’s power conditioner improves dymick, at least it is what people say. That is very good sign if it so. My concern is not about the improving dymick but about preservation of a proper length of harmonic decay. Many power devises create a feeling of dymick increase but they do it by transacting the harmonic tails – that is not good. Mr. Harley’s comments: “Dmitri made the system sound lighter” make me wonder: doe this lightness comes from striping harmonics of from something else. Robert said nothing about harmonic (not power harmonic but sound harmonic) but this is in fact the key in reference to which all improvements must be projected. One of the greatest accomplishments of PP200 (and it is the only power devises among those that I witness doing it so far) is that doing all its improvements it looks like it does not screw up harmonic pattern of Sound. I am not saying that Dmitri’s power conditioner might behave differently – I just do not know. It is might wish that you – the industry reviewing Morons who read this posts – include the observation about harmonics in your furfures reviews of the Running Springs Audio Dmitri. Also, I would like people with SET amplification use Dmitri and I would like to hear their comments about a relationship between loading and use of Dmitri power conditioner.

Romy the Cat wrote:

... and ugly harry legs...

What picked my curiosity and what I found very interesting is to learn if the Running Springs Audio (RSA) flaks own any truly dymick/harmonics not screwing filtration know-how. If it so then it would be VERY interesting to merge with APS does with what RSA does.

I have no idea what RSA does but since it is plosive devised that has only caps and coils and since then claim “regulation” then it might do some minor ferroresonant filtration. I say minor as no one comment about any noise from this thing and to have a deep ferroresonant wave reconstruction they would need to over-saturate core that would have some mechanical noise. So, let pooh-pooh their comments about regulation and accept that RSA is juts passive filter with very minor regulation and buffering function, probably for a one-two periods). Obviously the RSA can’t get more voltage if it sinks and has no option against complete voltage droop (despite what they say at this website).  Pay attention – no one past any waves before and after and no one give any harmonic distortions numbers.

So, I wonder: what if to apply the RSA presumably dymick -neutral filters to the PP2000's output filters? We know that APS reconstructs the sinusoid summit and what is more important the current sinusoid. We know that it does not screw up dynamic and that is sound good. We know that it has out LC filters that semi-killing the caring frequency of D-amp amp and the nose of the own PP2000 circuit. So, why do not let the RSA filtration to handle filtration, presuming that RSA will this time care the fully proper sinusoid.  All that we need to know is how the APS takes the feedback - before the output filters of after them. If the APS’ filters are not in the closed loop then it would be easy to short the APS’s output filters and drive signal to RSA, letting see how the $5000 capacitors on sorbothane feet will handle the gob. Sure it all might be interesting if there is any true value beside all those RSA claims. Also, it is truly necessary to know what the RSA does in order to assess what kind load RSA might be and how much it would decuple the final load from APS 2000’s output.

I would LOVE to have the PP2000 do not see the specifics of it's loads but so far whatever I put between PP2000 and load did screw up sound.