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  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  588101  01-30-2006
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09-14-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Retrofunk
Dallas Via London
Posts 6
Joined on 01-23-2016
Post #: 51
Post ID: 23388
Reply to: 23387
HS -80 Flywheel
Wellington, I posted a few years ago regarding the HS-80 Flywheel, I concur it is an absolute pain in the ass to set it up correctly. I tried every suggestion on this web, from Mirko and others. In the end the solution was purchasing the MS String, I had tried many different types ....but finding the actual MS String ...no issues since. My approach is to keep the length on the controller and the flywheel the same and to move the controller not not flywheel to get the correct speed and maintain it. Since my previous post I had Mirko clone the RY5000 controller and shoehorn into the box a Phoenix Engineering RoadRunner Tach and the PSU. I believe it is -todate- the only one he has built ...and I must say I absolutely love it. I get and maintain 33.333. Having said that I concur with 'Kipdent', I cannot hear a sonic difference utilizing the HS80 vs not, but it certainly looks cool ! LOL. I have attached a pic ....



Micro Seiki RX5000 handmade clone (double stacked), Micro Seiki Flywheel, Fidelity Research FR 64S, SME3009 S3, DynAudio C1, Merrill Audio Thor MonoBlocks, VAC Signature MKII, Keith Monk RCM, Denon Au 320 SUT, Technics SL1200 (KABUSA) Marantz 2330b
09-14-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 38
Joined on 10-03-2011
Post #: 52
Post ID: 23389
Reply to: 23388
5000 variations
Very nice set up. And yes, the HS-80 has a coolness factor, whether it helps the sound or not. I did a double-take when I saw your motor with all those green digits. Then I read what you did.

My RY-5500 came with an external 120 V to 100 V step-down power transfomer. I took the opportunity to add internal voltage regulation into the RY-5500 chassis that simultaneously drops the voltage without needing that external transfomer, makes the motor completely immune to line voltage variations and drastically lowers the noise of the voltage applied to the motor. Not as elaborate as your tach feedback loop but it seems to do the trick.
The 5000 is a great platform.

______________
Brian
09-15-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 53
Post ID: 23390
Reply to: 23386
Ah, the subject of the HS -80 Flywheel!
Back when I still had an interests to pock the Morons at Audiogon thread in there where the owners of HS -80 Flywheel told about the benefit of it and I challenged then:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/micro-sx-8000-ii-or-sz-1 
 
I experimented a lot with RX5000 and RX8000 and I even had the platter of 8000 to use as Flywheel for driving 5000. You can have better or worse stability in terms of numbers and moment inertia but I absolutely insist that all of it has no practical audible impact. I presented that notion to the Audiogon idiots but they declared me a terrorist or something like this….

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-15-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 38
Joined on 10-03-2011
Post #: 54
Post ID: 23391
Reply to: 23390
Correction
I mentioned above that a user named "kipdent" thought that he heard no difference using the HS-80 on his 5000. Let me correct my aging memory with what he actually wrote in an email to me: "It [the HS-80] is very cool, but I don't think it's worth the money they are getting now. It does make a difference in my opinion, but it is quite incremental." Just to correct the record (sorry for that pun).
In any case, I don't have an HS-80 in my audio bucket list.

______________
Brian
09-15-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
measet
Posts 15
Joined on 08-15-2017
Post #: 55
Post ID: 23392
Reply to: 23390
Micro HS-80 flywheel
No question the system with HS-80 looks cool but there is something wrong.
Isn't clear why a honoured Japenese company placed to the market a gear which can't be setup just on sophisticated, mysterious way.
BTW I use also original MS string but till now I had no luck to achieve good result neither with the setup version of Retrofunk.
I have reached the best result when I mounted the SF-1 belt on RX-5000 but still much time has past till I got the right speed.

I'm afraid that originally it was developed to support just the air bearing turntables like 8000 and lately 1500 series.
I didn't find any authentic evidence that HS-80 is fitting to RX-5000.
Exist one flayer where HS-80 has advertised as a piece of the Full Chois 1500 Series.


@ Retrofunk, I'm curious how fast your system get the right speed.
@ Wellington, could you tell me more about the installed internal voltage regulator, do you have the circuit diagram of it?
@ Romy I beleive in your experience but as I own this rare and expensive unit what a pitty that I cannot do at least one audio checking.
09-16-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 38
Joined on 10-03-2011
Post #: 56
Post ID: 23394
Reply to: 23392
Schematic
Measet, I will try to find a photo and the schematic as you requested, but it may be a while before I can locate them. Plus, we are still digging out from Hurricane Irma down here. As I recall, I beefed up the raw D.C. supply and then used an LM317 regulator circuit. I attached the TO-220 regulator package using an existing hole inside the RY-5500 chassis in a manner that took advantage of the heavy chassis as a heat sink. The other parts were shoe-horned tightly inside. The original D.C. supply that ran off 100 V AC was pretty wobbly. I monitored its voltage on an oscilloscope as I applied varying loads to the platter with my hand and I observed pretty large amounts of ripple. Apparently it was just adequate to the task. My new beefier raw supply runs directly off 120 V AC now and it is then regulated down to the same original D.C. voltage, but with almost no ripple and having very high line rejection. My mods worked without any issues whatsoever. Your line voltage is probably 230 V AC in Europe, so you may still need a step-down transfomer unless your '5000 is configured for that voltage. How is your RY-5500 rated on its label?
Which brings me to my next point. Your problems trying to use the HS-80 may indicate a weak or failed power supply inside your RY-5500. There are numerous electrolytic capacitors inside the RY-5500 that are now 30+ years old. I replaced every single electrolytic cap in my two Micro Seiki tables (5000 and 1500). I also have two superb Kyocera PL-910 tables which were made by Micro Seiki, and I replaced the supply caps in those as well. You might try replacing your electrolytic caps before doing anything else. See if that doesn't make your motor more stable. Even if it doesn't, the new caps are warranted preventatively and should be replaced anyway before modifying the supply. You don't need audio caps here. Just buy high quality caps from Panasonic or Nichicon. I try to always find caps with a 105 Celsius rating. The temperature never gets high in the RY-5500, but I believe the 105-Celsius-rated caps to be slightly more reliable, and they usually cost little more.

______________
Brian
09-16-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
measet
Posts 15
Joined on 08-15-2017
Post #: 57
Post ID: 23395
Reply to: 23394
Regulator
Wellington, thanks for detailed info.
Currently I have two RX-5000 tt (also Michell Orb and modded Thechnics SL-1200).
I bougth the two Micro's from Japan (local friend helped me on) so the motors are labeled with 100 VAC.
One of them is supplied by step-down transformer and I didn't touch it the other one is modded a bit, the transformer was re-wounded professionally to 230V, I replaced all electrolytic caps with Elna audio grade, the two trimmers as well, I removed the rust and cleaned the electromotor and I lubricated very slightly the motor shaft.
Both motors are stable and keep the speed well. Generally I measure with iRPM but I can use also 1kHz test LP/osciloscope.
By profession I'm not electrician but I have a bit skill and experience on this area.
I just got inspiration from you to replace the pure DC regulator to a beefy one. So please send me the data if you can find around.

Sometime ago also I was interested in Kyocera and 1500 with air bearing but finally I turned on other way.
Can you compare them to RX-5000?

Thanks a lot and take care!
09-16-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Retrofunk
Dallas Via London
Posts 6
Joined on 01-23-2016
Post #: 58
Post ID: 23396
Reply to: 23392
HS-80
With regard to 'How fast to get to correct speed' These are my steps:
- Hand spin the flywheel first
- Hand rotate the platter until the Tach reads around 33rpm
- Start the motor 
- Speed will be within 2-3% straight away 
- Due to the PSU altering the voltage, until the tach feedbacks a constant 33.3XX I would estimate it is around 2-3 mins ...it will then be a constant 33.3xx, then a few more minutes for 33.33x, i don't always achieve a constant 33.333 . However, without the flywheel a constant 33.333 is maintained. I only use this deck for 33.3 rpm records, I have a KABUSA Technics 1200 for 45 rpm.

Before i had the tach and PSU shoe-horned into the controller I just used the tach ...at least that way I could monitor the speed of the platter. Without a tach, trying to set the flywheel up and the controller is a nightmare ...or it was in my case anyway.Hope this helps.

Micro Seiki RX5000 handmade clone (double stacked), Micro Seiki Flywheel, Fidelity Research FR 64S, SME3009 S3, DynAudio C1, Merrill Audio Thor MonoBlocks, VAC Signature MKII, Keith Monk RCM, Denon Au 320 SUT, Technics SL1200 (KABUSA) Marantz 2330b
09-17-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
measet
Posts 15
Joined on 08-15-2017
Post #: 59
Post ID: 23397
Reply to: 23396
It does not make sense!
Retrofunk, thanks for the input.
So I have to accept that the game with HS-80 is a fiddling job.
After spending hours with different setups I achieved the optimal result:
- both string are same lenght and quite tight.
- it needs aprox. 4-5 minutes to the system reach the stable and right speed.
I did some auditions but tell the true I didn't recognize any difference.
Maybe I was just stressed and tired but in my oppinion the pain in the ass is too much.

To wait minutes before play a record...it does not make sense.
10-10-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jam
Auburn
Posts 21
Joined on 10-10-2017
Post #: 60
Post ID: 24474
Reply to: 23397
RX-5000
Hi Wellington and fellow Micro-Seiki fans,
I will have to agree with your findings about the CU-180 as well. I have tried a stainless steel mat with similar results.I own two RX-5000's and cant't stress enough the rebuilding of the power supply with new capacitors and lubrication of the motor bearing. I am working on a new power supply to replace the internal supply. There are gains to be had here with a good regulator and better transformer.
I tried the HS-80 and with heavier platters I can say that it seems to be a phenomenal waste of time. 
Jam
10-10-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 38
Joined on 10-03-2011
Post #: 61
Post ID: 24476
Reply to: 24474
Power supply regulator
I was asked for more information on my power supply regulator, which allows the original 100V power line (Japan) to be plugged directly into a 120V line (US), while greatly smoothing the ripple going to the motor.
I must have drawn my schematic on a piece of paper and it is now somewhere in a box. Usually I put my designs into digital format, but I must not have here. If I can locate the papers, I will provide more information later. For now, I can show two images. One shows how I mounted an LM317T onto the underside of the chassis for heatsinking. I used an existing stand-off stud which supports the PCBs. Note that I insulated the LM317T's tab from the chassis. The other shot shows the tiny added prototype board that holds the associated components. This board is about 1.5" by 1.5". It mounts on that same stud, between two existing PCBs. You can see the red heatshrink tubing coming from below the little added board, through a Molex type connector. This connector allows me to be able to remove the PCBs for service without having to dismount the LM317T. The circuit is simple if you know the venerable LM317. The upper resistor is 249 ohms (1%) and the lower resistor is 5.49K (1%). I added two safety diodes and two small caps, per the usual LM317 design. The resistor ratio gives about 29 V out. Note the large dark blue main cap above the added board. I increased the PS capacitance dramatically to make sure that the LM317 is always getting enough input voltage to stay in regulation. I don't recall the value but it is probably about twice the original value. All other electrolytic caps were replaced with the same values.
Hope this helps. A technically-oriented person can figure it out from this.

______________
Brian
10-10-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jam
Auburn
Posts 21
Joined on 10-10-2017
Post #: 62
Post ID: 24478
Reply to: 22028
Contact
Wellington,
I would like to get into contact with you regarding the supply.You can e-mail me at jsomasundram@hotmail.com.
Thanks.
Regards.
Jam
10-10-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 38
Joined on 10-03-2011
Post #: 63
Post ID: 24479
Reply to: 24478
Forum
I prefer to discuss these things out in the open on forums so that everyone can participate unless you have something truly personal to duscuss. Thanks 

______________
Brian
10-10-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jam
Auburn
Posts 21
Joined on 10-10-2017
Post #: 64
Post ID: 24480
Reply to: 24479
Response
Wellington,
In fact I do. That being said on another note I would like to plan a circuit board project for a power supply for any interested members.
Thanks.
Regards,
Jam
10-10-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 38
Joined on 10-03-2011
Post #: 65
Post ID: 24481
Reply to: 24480
OK
Very well. I will email you tonight or tomorrow. Thanks 

______________
Brian
10-28-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009
Post #: 66
Post ID: 24495
Reply to: 24480
HS-80, Speed ...
Well.....after reading this all, I can say, most is definitely phenomenal waste of time.
I own HS-80 for many years and in my System I can easily hear the difference with or without it.
Also is my speed stable, I check it from time to time with Timeline Strobe from Sutherland (by far the most accurate device) while playing
Resonances from metal platter is widely known (the main reason why the 8000II sounds so bad) but to avoid this with an addition metal platter?
Give me a break.


Micro Seiki RX 5000-HS-80.jpg




Kind Regards
Stitch
10-28-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 38
Joined on 10-03-2011
Post #: 67
Post ID: 24497
Reply to: 24495
No breaks
I cannot give you a break just because you want one, sorry. Two metal objects with dissimilar resonance properties which are in intimate contact can indeed squelch each other’s resonances. The proof is in the pudding. It’s physics. It works.

______________
Brian
10-28-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 68
Post ID: 24498
Reply to: 24495
The site quiz
It is a very interesting subject, not that I feel it has any practical matter. I you believe in HS-80 and have the Micro-5000+ like turntable then what would be the best configuration to locate motor, platter,  HS-80 and one Vibroplane? Please justify your choice: 
 
1)      Motor is outside of Vibroplane, platter is on Vibroplane and HS-80 is outside of Vibroplane
2)      Motor is on Vibroplane, platter is on Vibroplane and HS-80 is outside of Vibroplane
3)      Motor, platter and HS-80 are on Vibroplane
4)      Motor is outside of Vibroplane, platter and HS-80 are on Vibroplane

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-28-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 38
Joined on 10-03-2011
Post #: 69
Post ID: 24499
Reply to: 24498
No wiggles
None of the above.

I know you weren’t asking me, but you missed that option. The best solution, in my opinion of course, is no vibraplane or anything soft at all beneath the 5000, which, thankfully, has no suspension to begin with. Why change that philosophy by adding a compliant suspension?

The best solution is to mechanically GROUND the 5000 to Mother Earth. You don’t want any wiggles at all. My 5000 sits on 160 pounds of granite slab which rests on a massive equipment rack which rests on a ceramic tile floor (no carpet in between) which is installed directly over a concrete slab. The only time a compliant base such as the vibraplane might make sense is when the listening room has flouncy-bouncy wood-framed floors. In that case the motor and the plinth/platter must both be on the same base. You don’t want the motor going left when the platter goes right. You want them to both go right in the exact same relative positions to one another.

______________
Brian
10-28-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jam
Auburn
Posts 21
Joined on 10-10-2017
Post #: 70
Post ID: 24501
Reply to: 24499
Mass is King!
I have to agree with Wellington. To be fair we both use stainless steel platters (heavier than stock) and use CU-180 mats to damp the platter which ensures an almost dead platter, way better than any acrylic, hard rubber and felt mat I have tried. Stainless steel platters sound much better than the stock platters, Micro Seiki realized this and offered it as a higher cost option (rare). This is a pretty simple experiment as Wellington has stated. For the most part the use of the HS-80 is cosmetic and I have not been able to hear any difference in my setup. (maybe another RX-5000 as a flywheel might work?) If not set up correctly(which can be a pain) it can cause problems. 
In my opinion the best improvements to a RX-5000 are the use of a stainless steel platter with a copper mat, rebuilding the bearing and rebuilding the motor with the possibility of a new power supply. I have two RX-5000's ad one remained stock while the other was rebuilt (same tonearm and cartridge) when I was satisfied that the changes made an improvement I rebuilt the other one.
10-28-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009
Post #: 71
Post ID: 24502
Reply to: 24501
Correct Tonal Reproduction is King
Well, I know these endless discussions about Seiki but after a while we all have to make a decision. 
Tuning? Better? Better than what? What is "I like it!"?
When doing something - serious - it is mandatory to know what a correct tonal reproduction is. From my experience, 95% of all "Audiophiles" have absolutely no clue about it or what that is. They do "something" and when it sounds different, they are happy about their result.
Had the same discussion about that with a Seiki Dealer, when I told him what his beloved 8000II (he still sells them) is doing wrong... he attacked me badly .... and of course he has no clue except knowing the price tag from his "treasures"....

Anyway....MY files about Seiki are complete and I know very well which combination sounds best....but each his own. And I also know the Seiki 5000 with steel platter ... 

a few pics about that time frame......


MS RX-5000 (3).jpg


MS RX-5000 (7).jpg



Micro Seiki RX 5000-20.jpg




Micro Seiki RX 5000-HS-80-1.jpg




MS RX-5000 (4).jpg




Anyway, I think these TechDas table are done quite well and last year I was seriously thinking about buying a AF-1. I listened to it extensively multiple times ... and did nothing until today....



Kind Regards
Stitch
10-29-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jam
Auburn
Posts 21
Joined on 10-10-2017
Post #: 72
Post ID: 24504
Reply to: 24502
AF-1
I would agree that the RX-5000 has some advantage to the SX-8000 and I put the differences down to mainly the air bearing and construction of the platter which will cause softness and a lack of focus (some people may like this). To understand the use of a metal mat you have to understand a constrained layer damping which is a common engineering practice.
But in my humble opinion  both these tables are superior to the AF-1. The AF-1 suffers from several problems a) a motor system that has insufficient torque, b) a suspension system that is incomplete  c) an inefficient  arm mounting system which has been corrected in the AF-3 and as as someone else put it it too much 'bling' for it's own good. Look at the updates that have gone into the AF-1. Problems that they will try to fix in the upcoming AF-0.
Technically the AF-1 might look good on paper but in my opinion it removes the soul of the music being played. A classic case of a product being released before all the bugs were ironed out. A lot of modern products have taken a step back because of desire to introduce new features that are questionable at best and discard tried and true engineering practice. 
10-29-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 73
Post ID: 24506
Reply to: 24504
About Micro, AF-1 and the rest...
 jam wrote:
(maybe another RX-5000 as a flywheel might work?) If not set up correctly(which can be a pain) it can cause problems. 

In my case use the RX-5000 as a flywheel did not work. I mean it “worked” well from mechanical perspective but I did not detect any sensible sonic difference.

 jam wrote:
In my opinion the best improvements to a RX-5000 are the use of a stainless steel platter with a copper mat…

I personally do not feel that using ether stainless or copper is better. The Micro designer told in 2000 when I unfortunately met him that stainless platter were made for setups that run tube electronic and copper platters for setup that run SS electronics. It is a cleaver thinking but I am not sure if is practically honest. I personally do not like sound from Micro of a record lays directly on metal platter, would it be copper or stainless. I always put a hard rubber mat over any platter. BTW, Micro people knew it and this is why they had a very thin felt mat over the vacuum hold down version. I personally feel that stainless is much better platter but only because it I much heavier. The American Sound turntable has stainless platter that is 3 time higher and many times heavier, it is even better. The heavier platter goes in this topology the less the other things matter.
 jam wrote:
But in my humble opinion  both these tables are superior to the AF-1. The AF-1 suffers from several problems a) a motor system that has insufficient torque, b) a suspension system that is incomplete  c) an inefficient  arm mounting system which has been corrected in the AF-3 and as as someone else put it it too much 'bling' for it's own good. Look at the updates that have gone into the AF-1. Problems that they will try to fix in the upcoming AF-0. Technically the AF-1 might look good on paper but in my opinion it removes the soul of the music being played. A classic case of a product being released before all the bugs were ironed out. A lot of modern products have taken a step back because of desire to introduce new features that are questionable at best and discard tried and true engineering practice. 

Jam, I very much agree with you observations. Warn you that I never had AF-1 and my familiarity with it derives only from a friend of mine who does have, who tested it very well and who characterized it with word “absolute shit”. I am not personally not familiar with design and the reasons why it is good or bad, so I will keep mouth shut. I do not like the large parley to western world that TechDAS opened with. As the western audio media and distribution framework embrace a product they unavoidable kill it. The idiots- reviewers and media are lowering the standard and demands and the product begin to target to lower common denominators. I did not see any product in audio what did not follow this pattern. Very few of manufacturers do maintain integrity but not of them become popular hi-end products. So, considering that each “famous” audio writing retard nowadays in a queue to get his TechDAS turntable and to exchange for for a pile of irrelevant written gibberish I do not think that TechDAS has any reasons to make better turntables. It is juts my opinion. I do not know that the TechDAS products but I am an expert to observe and to criticize the brain damage that happens with a person/company which also itself to be taken by the hi-end audio sewerage system.  

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-29-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 38
Joined on 10-03-2011
Post #: 74
Post ID: 24507
Reply to: 24506
Hero worship
Romy, I share your skepticism of the audio media (ALL media, really.), although maybe with a bit less “attitude” than you Smile. Audio reviewers are predisposed to like the newest thing, especially if they didn’t experience something better from years ago. In the Positive Feedback review of the Air Force One, the reviewer states: “Its quality is guaranteed by the authority of Mr. Nishikawa”. Guaranteed? Really? This is hero worship. Hideaki Nishikawa, designer of the TechDas line, had a much-ballyhooed stint at Micro Seiki where he was responsible for the final 8000 MkII. The earlier history of Micro Seiki is less clear, but I am led to believe that Nishikawa-San came to MS long after the 5000 was already developed. The TechDas Air Force indeed appears to be the logical successor to the 8000 II more than it does to the 5000.
Nishikawa-San is probably a very fine engineer and I wish TechDas well as it improves its product, but let’s not fall for marketing hyperbole. 


______________
Brian
10-29-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 38
Joined on 10-03-2011
Post #: 75
Post ID: 24508
Reply to: 24507
Heavy metal
Heavy metal, and no acrylic in sight. Disk-cutting lathes from Scully and Neumann.


______________
Brian
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  588101  01-30-2006
  »  New  Micro RX 5000..  Alternative method...  Analog Playback Forum     9  70378  11-09-2008
  »  New  Micro RX5000: is that bearing spins normally?..  How many turns do the good bearing......  Analog Playback Forum     7  43272  02-03-2014
  »  New  Fetish of Micro's?..  Size of ceramic ball...  Analog Playback Forum     122  420146  10-29-2017
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