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  »  New  The elusive “absolute tone”...  Breeze......  Playback Listening  Forum     24  159204  07-28-2005
  »  New  The “Primary Frequencies”...  Melody range and the other octaves...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     5  51226  09-08-2005
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  »  New  SPUnisation of Macondo: how to catch own testicals...  Who? (shades of the old "musical" vs. "a...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     1  22139  02-01-2007
  »  New  Tannoy Red 1960s: some sober reality..  The Summer Monitors?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     10  111336  02-15-2007
  »  New  The inflatable speakers dumping and no only...  Labyrinth?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  49730  05-30-2007
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  »  New  Attention Sound Engineers (compression and loudness)..  Injection channel and Romy's rules...  Playback Listening  Forum     48  226043  09-09-2007
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  199766  10-28-2007
  »  New  Wilson Audio and the Moore's law..  Sneak peak of modesty...  Audio News Forum     19  56876  04-26-2009
  »  New  Other Ways of getting Special Tone from a loudspeaker...  Paul S....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  59815  11-27-2009
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  »  New  An educational Eugenie’s installation...  Some more......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     15  58008  07-15-2010
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  12554  10-08-2010
05-31-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,163
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 51
Post ID: 4522
Reply to: 4521
If the cabinet is an audible factor
Yes, high-passing smaller "full-range" drivers works wonders for the sound that remains.

But since this is, after all, the (deadly) "injection channel" perhaps you still want some noise from the cabinet?

In any case, I would say, if it "works" as is, why change it just to make it smaller?

Hard to predict what a smaller cabinet will sound like.

Beat regards,
Paul S
05-31-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 52
Post ID: 4523
Reply to: 4521
This is how it will be.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 53
Post ID: 4534
Reply to: 4473
The Injection Channel: post post factum

Well, never say never and what I said that the Injection Channel is done it meant that it WAS done.

I am experimenting now with other way of use Red injection. The application as is at the picture practically had no impact to imaging. However, I needed some Red’s lower midrange that I have no space to develop….So I used the boxed Injection Channel about the Macondo running juts Red Woofer along with the tweeter sitting above the “Water Drop”… Without setting up and aligning everything precisely, preliminary, I kind of like it.

However, it becomes to appear to me too certifiable, not the THX certifiable…




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 54
Post ID: 4536
Reply to: 4534
Careful with that ax Eugene!
So if I understand correctly, you are still using both elements of the Red, but have separated them, and now have the HF element as shown in the above photo, and the woofer is still in the large box (still sitting up on top?), and filtered to simulate the smaller box.

And, by separating the elements, you are able to get the HF element in there where it does less damage to imaging... Was that your motivation in um, liberating the HF element?

Where in terms of frequency do you want the additional tone? Would it be enough to inject this tone in the Upper-Bass and Lower Mid-Range, or are you also looking to add it up in the S2 range as well?

At what frequency range do you have the HF element of the Red functioning? (where is it high-passed or band-passed?). I assume it is emitting frequencies lower than the Water Drop.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 55
Post ID: 4537
Reply to: 4536
Everything is much undefined now….

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
So if I understand correctly, you are still using both elements of the Red, but have separated them, and now have the HF element as shown in the above photo, and the woofer is still in the large box (still sitting up on top?), and filtered to simulate the smaller box.

And, by separating the elements, you are able to get the HF element in there where it does less damage to imaging... Was that your motivation in um, liberating the HF element?

Where in terms of frequency do you want the additional tone? Would it be enough to inject this tone in the Upper-Bass and Lower Mid-Range, or are you also looking to add it up in the S2 range as well?

At what frequency range do you have the HF element of the Red functioning? (where is it high-passed or band-passed?). I assume it is emitting frequencies lower than the Water Drop.

Yes, they are as you described. My motivation was to bring the Red’s tweeter as close as possible to the sours of HF of the entire system. You see, to have 2 sources of HF, even in the vertical plane prone to many problems. The problems might be minimized theoretically but it is VERY complex and I do not think that it is possible in my specific conditions (distance and so on). Sure, one of my sources is at 9dB down but it still has SOME negative effect to imaging, though very positive to tone. A slight rolling off HF on Red help a little but it requires in order to get the same effect of “Injection” to increased the output for Red’s tweeter – it is not good as it move the entire virtual center point image up.

The to locate the Red’s tweeter as it on the picture above helps but I really have no space in there as the frame (the high of the Fundamental channel horn) had fixed for S2-WaterDrop-S2 trio. Also, the Injection of the Red between the Water Drop and upper S2 as I have done is not free from problems. The damn Red tweeter when it sits outside of his woofer and is not driven by own crossover sounds much cleaner and has less coloration. However, I do not it its clean sound - I need to use only it’s colorations! So it makes me to crank it up but it is not what I would like to do…. I do not think that I will keep it next to WD  – too complex, better for imaging from one point of view but questionable from other point of view. With all things being equal I feel that the high-passed Red in own full assembly is more useful for the Injection… but it is too damn bid and good only to sit above the Macondo.Perhaps I shell leave it there….

Still, the biggest problem is that I hardly can say anything defiantly. Since the temperature is risen in Boston and everyone turned the Air Conditioners on the electricity went bad. For the last 2 weeks audio is hardly listenable and I would like do not make any decisions in this state. Some days it is so bad that I juts turn the playback off in order do not get irritated…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-03-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 56
Post ID: 4543
Reply to: 4537
The best position so far.
This position is near flawless what the Red run at minus 9dB.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-03-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 57
Post ID: 4544
Reply to: 4537
Additional thoughts for Eugene
Once you establish that you are for sure on the right track with the whole idea of the Injection Channel, it would not be such a big deal to cut and extend the vertical mast of your Macodo frames, moving your Fundamentals Channel up... You could have a strong square window welded in that would allow the Red to be positioned as in your drawing.

You may be able to find a good welder with a portable rig and have it done right there in your room (I've been getting away with this sort of thing for the past year... use plywood shields!).

However, I must say, I have a lot of trouble accepting the idea of redundant drivers.

Do you really feel that it would be desirable to inject tone up in the range where you have the S2s working?

I wonder if you might address the issue of tone by working only with Bass.

My own Mid-Range arrangement is based on that of the Macondos... Listening to my own system (I have enough of it done now to make some observations), I can say that there are two elements which bring significant tone to the overall perception :

1) The AK151 Mid-Bass drivers, even without horns.

2) The pair of 18" Lower-Bass drivers in sealed boxes (a sort of effortless bass with very good tone... A nice surprise, as I had to buy them without having heard what they could do).

Obviously, neither of these directly add tone anywhere higher up than Upper-Bass... Nevertheless, they may be affecting the way the S2s channels are "perceived". In my case, I don't feel that the S2s would benefit from more tone. However, if I could hear your experiment, I may change my mind.

What diaphragms did you finally settle for use with your S2s... Plastic or metal suspension?

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-03-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 58
Post ID: 4545
Reply to: 4544
Some answers from Engine with ax.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
However, I must say, I have a lot of trouble accepting the idea of redundant drivers.

Yes, it dose not sound attractive to me but it is not the redundant drivers but one main driver and another at minus 9dB driver, sort of the “colorizing driver”. It dos not really emits own sound but rather slightly tone up the main driver. It is hard to believe but if you sit in my room it would be easily demonstrateable….

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Do you really feel that it would be desirable to inject tone up in the range where you have the S2s working?

It is NOT necessary but it is beneficial. I started to do it bit because the S2 deficiencies but become the certain Red’s tonal inflections that I do fount appealing (in a small well quantifiable doze)

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
My own Mid-Range arrangement is based on that of the Macondos... Listening to my own system (I have enough of it done now to make some observations), I can say that there are two elements which bring significant tone to the overall perception:

1) The AK151 Mid-Bass drivers, even without horns.

Absolutely phenomenal driver, nothing can touch it!!! If you corner-load it in a right room you will have the upperbass that will be EXTREMELY difficult to beat. Sure they you would need to time alight it with the rest of the system that should not be in the corner.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
2) The pair of 18" Lower-Bass drivers in sealed boxes (a sort of effortless bass with very good tone... A nice surprise, as I had to buy them without having heard what they could do).

Hm, the “tone” subject in context of the lower octave is VERY different subject …

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Obviously, neither of these directly add tone anywhere higher up than Upper-Bass... Nevertheless, they may be affecting the way the S2s channels are "perceived". In my case, I don't feel that the S2s would benefit from more tone. However, if I could hear your experiment, I may change my mind.

You can’t not imagine how good the S2 with AK151 if they properly used (room). I keep some of them in my storage and I would LOVE to found some use for them….

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
What diaphragms did you finally settle for use with your S2s... Plastic or metal suspension?

It never changed. For MF I use the plastic suspension and for Fundamental Channel the metal (wich is not critical)

The Cat

PS: BTW, who is Eugene?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 59
Post ID: 4549
Reply to: 4545
S2 Diaphragms and the Mysterious Eugene
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
What diaphragms did you finally settle for use with your S2s... Plastic or metal suspension?

               Reply from Romy : 
               "It never changed. For MF I use the plastic suspension and for Fundamental Channel the metal (wich is not critical)"

You did at one point (circa early 2005) prefer the metal suspension for MF :

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/GetPost.aspx?PostID=871

               Quote from Romy - Early 2005:
               "I have now my S2 running with the original diaphragms in the very same way in which it was made 55 years aback: I have no HF harshness at all"

Reading your thoughts on the two suspensions at that time leads me to wonder if the plastic suspension is not stealing away some of the tone?

Regarding Eugene :

The reference to Eugene and his ax came to mind upon seeing the disemboweled Red driver. This will "enlighten" you as to who he is... Mind you, it is not at all the sort of thing I usually have playing... But it is what was around while growing up... sometimes I do take a trip back :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4488671888968650349

BTW, As I do sometimes listen to music other than classical and jazz, before getting this far along with the project, I was REALLY curious about how a Vitavox/Horns/SET amps system would do with this other music... Answer : Wow, nice... even with electronic "music".

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 60
Post ID: 4552
Reply to: 4549
The S2 Diaphragms: is not the tone that drives me.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
You did at one point (circa early 2005) prefer the metal suspension for MF :

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/GetPost.aspx?PostID=871

               Quote from Romy - Early 2005:
               "I have now my S2 running with the original diaphragms in the very same way in which it was made 55 years aback: I have no HF harshness at all"

Jessie, my site is not a collection of “audio wisdom” but rather a diary of an audio psycho, sort of a chronicle of my adventures in audio. We all and certainly I do make moves into wrong direction, or in less productive direction, not to mention the very stupid directions. It happens here, my site reflects it (like my attempts to use tweeter attenuation with moving the tweeter on the slope and a few others….) and I have no problems to admit it. When I discover or realize about my wrong or not fruitful moves I always publish the follow-ups but never delete or edit the older posts.

There were a periods (and not ounces) when I felt that my use of the original diaphragms was warranted. I do not feel that it was stupid but conditional – slightly discharges drivers, a good electricity, a certain use (or do not use) of tweeter. Then I found some justifications do not use original diaphragms. It is all about the relationship between the conditions and the results. The top end of the original diaphragms does much better with soft magnets (I have S2 with different magnets), in fact the best with electromagnet. When electricity is very good the original metal diaphragms do extremely well but as soon electricity has a very little nose the metal diaphragms begin to sound very nasty.  The plastic suspension is much more “liquid” and less sensitive to electricity. So, what I said that “It never changed” I meant that it never changed since my last findings and I have for a couple years the plastic suspension in my MF channel…
 
http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/GetPost.aspx?PostID=878 

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/GetPost.aspx?PostID=937

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/GetPost.aspx?PostID=948

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/GetPost.aspx?PostID=1253

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/GetPost.aspx?PostID=1344


Saying it, I very much might try to use the metal suspension again when I will be driving the MF with a single-stage Milq, direct coupled or ater I try the Duddanization of the cone. The single-stage Milq should be “a cleaner electronics” and it should be advantageous....

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Reading your thoughts on the two suspensions at that time leads me to wonder if the plastic suspension is not stealing away some of the tone?

Very reasonable question. However, the difference between the plastic suspension and metal suspension (BTW, I have 2 different version of plastic suspension) is not in tone at least not in the tone that makes the S2 different from Red. We are approaching the moment when it is difficult to describe the things and it should be experienced. Since you already do have the S2 driver then buy from Mike one single plastic suspension cone and try it next you original cones. If you have only plastic suspension then I do encourage you to find the original cone. If you can’t then I might send you one to try. When you play both of them then you might understand why I went back and forth with the cones in past and perhaps will do it again in future perhaps. I still do not feel that it is not “tone” that drives me.

Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 61
Post ID: 4555
Reply to: 4543
The Injection Channel's Rule?
 Romy the Cat wrote:
This position is near flawless what the Red run at minus 9dB.

However, it does not compiles with the rules I am feel are in act and that I’m slowly accepting: the Injection Channels’ tweeter should NOT radiate anything in direct line of sight and should be use ONLY as an ambianicly dispersed injection.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 62
Post ID: 4556
Reply to: 4552
Tone & point of origin

Your latest post got me thinking in a sort of incomplete way about how you might locate the injection channel... If you consider tone as a harmonic of the original source, then (depending on the order of harmonic) it may in fact not be correct to attempt reducing the proximity between the point of origin for your tone generating channel and that of your main channels?

This might or might not be correct... Like I said, I am just thinking out loud here, but have you tried intentionally disassociating the Injection Channels (completely) from the Macondos (both in location as well as direction of projection)?

Regarding the diary of an Audio Psycho :

"Jessie, my site is not a collection of “audio wisdom” but rather a diary of an audio psycho..."

Yes, and I can't wait for the film! I heard that Vladimir Lamm, Michael Fremer, and even Magnetar will be making appearances... I heard John Atkinson is being consulted by the editing director... There is supposed to be quite a hot scene involving an adolescent camel... I just can't wait!

Seriously though, I do understand.

"We all and certainly I do make moves into wrong direction, or in less productive direction, not to mention the very stupid directions. It happens here, my site reflects it (like my attempts to use tweeter attenuation with moving the tweeter on the slope and a few others….)"

I need to go back and re-read your posts on the subject, as I don't recall why you concluded that it is an error to high-pass the tweeter such that the listener only perceives the lower part of the slope (if that's what you mean when you say when you write "with moving the tweeter on the slope" ... this seems a very effective means of achieving attenuation without resorting to various barbarian devices... In fact, I currently (stupidly?) have my tweeters high-passed at something like 16KHz first order.

"When I discover or realize about my wrong or not fruitful moves I always publish the follow-ups but never delete or edit the older posts."

Yes, please continue this practice ; I am certain that I am not alone when I say that it has contributed enormously to my understanding (to say nothing of the time it has saved).

"...I very much might try to use the metal suspension again when I will be driving the MF with a single-stage Milq, direct coupled or ater I try the Duddanization of the cone. The single-stage Milq should be “a cleaner electronics” and it should be advantageous...."

What do you mean by "the Duddanization of the cone"... I would guess you are referring to damping the cone via some sort of coating (saliva from your pregnant adolescent camel... You do realize she has been pregnant for a very long time...)

"...Since you already do have the S2 driver then buy from Mike one single plastic suspension cone and try it next you original cones..."

My S2s have metal diaphragms... In fact, I did not realize that it was still possible to buy the diaphragms with plastic suspension (???).

Thank you for your offer to lend me a diaphragm... It would seem best that I try to buy the diaphragms that I don't have (plastic suspension)... If I heard the plastic suspension in my system, and liked it, but then could not buy a pair, I might just become and Audio Psycho...

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 63
Post ID: 4557
Reply to: 4556
The Injection Channel “defused” channel

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Your latest post got me thinking in a sort of incomplete way about how you might locate the injection channel... If you consider tone as a harmonic of the original source, then (depending on the order of harmonic) it may in fact not be correct to attempt reducing the proximity between the point of origin for your tone generating channel and that of your main channels?

This might or might not be correct... Like I said, I am just thinking out loud here, but have you tried intentionally disassociating the Injection Channels (completely) from the Macondos (both in location as well as direction of projection)?

It is exactly how I fell now and why I posted that post. I do not need the Injection Channel as a sound source but rather as source of semi-ambient noise. What I do not need is a directivity as any Red directivity introduces lobbing and all sort of other problems.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
I need to go back and re-read your posts on the subject, as I don't recall why you concluded that it is an error to high-pass the tweeter such that the listener only perceives the lower part of the slope (if that's what you mean when you say when you write "with moving the tweeter on the slope" ... this seems a very effective means of achieving attenuation without resorting to various barbarian devices... In fact, I currently (stupidly?) have my tweeters high-passed at something like 16KHz first order.

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=1525

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=2790

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,163
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 64
Post ID: 4560
Reply to: 4557
That little something extra
I don't want to get off on a tangent here, but I have been using a sort of MF injection by default for some time due to  OB backwash from my DX4s between 150 and 2,400 Hz, since I leave the back of the driver open.  Yes, this is "out of phase" but it is also "blocked" by the large baffle, etc., blah, blah, blah, and it bounces around before it gets to me, anyway.

The bottom line is, it does something mostly good if the speakers are pulled well out from the walls, and it not only does not hurt imaging, it seems to help.

Another thought is the old SQ-coded "rear channels", etc., which served best if dimmed to make ambience only.

Likewise, "surround sound", which is actually great for ambience if it is done right, ie, with restraint.

Best regards,
Paul S
06-06-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 65
Post ID: 4563
Reply to: 4523
The negative consequences of Injection Channel but...
 Romy the Cat wrote:


Got today home, turned the playback on and realized the electricity got better. Not as god as it should be but much better. At lest each ambient sting instrument did not surround surrounded with a cloud of white noise and the woodwinds do not sound like coppers - is huge freaking accomplishment!!!

So, I took my time and moved around the Red tweeter, here and there, in different application… I do not know…. Whatever I did and wherever I placed it does screw up sound in one way or other. Turning channel off, setting it in geometric shadow of other horn works very nice but request to add more output to the Injection Channel that made other problems and still even if I accept them it greatly reduces the effect of the Injection.

Eventually I figured out that my initial idea to keep it in vertical plane above the Macondo was not as bad after all. It does crew up imaging is some way and does introduces some special dirt but it screws the thing up in the most tolerable way. So, I will stick with my original plan and will build a small box above Macondo and use a smaller version of Tannoy 10” Red.

Does is worth it? Well, think about it: I do perfectly recognize the negative consequences of Injection Channel but still wiling to use it.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-07-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 66
Post ID: 4569
Reply to: 4563
The Injection Channel – time to harvest

It was exactly how as I imagined - the Injection Channel worked very-very well. The electricity was good, close to wonderful. I calibrated everything and decided to spend a few hours just listening some tonally complex things. The Injection Channel made the think a freaky in a way. I know this musuc very well but the Injection Channel made it TONALLY HALLUCINOGENIC. The effect if injections truly phenomenal.

I started with Stravinsky’s L'Histoire du Soldat by Ars Nova Ensemble by Mandell (courtesy to Robert Witrak and Charles King). It is kind of is a way difficult to listen this recording. It has poltergeists in it without Injection but with Injection it kind of…become so freakish that it is not tolerable.

Then it was Rachmaninoff’s Second Concerto by Byron Janis and Minneapolis Symphony. It hardly possible to find any more interesting committed to record orchestral play of the Rach’s PC2 .  The Dorati’s orchestra nothing short of stunning and what I looks for THE tone it should not go too far from there…

Then it was Haydn’s “La Reine de France” by Chicago and Kurt Masur from 1988. Chicago in 80s? Haydn and Masur? All together?  Am I kidding? Well, listening what they do it looks like they were kidding. It is kind of “pressurized Haydn”, played with Glenn Gould’s “nervousness” and with the Van Gogh’s over-expressive colors. The Injection made the room truly seaming in the colors, wit all those grades, shadows and overtones… I disconnected the Super Milqs and listened juts the Injection Channel. It sounded like drinking consecrated syrup while being thirsty. However, at minus 9dB and supplemented with Macondo it was quite tonally wonderful.

Then I played a French-pressed Menuhin with Shankar. It is not exactly my music but I hit it anciently while was trying to play other Menuhin. However, the Sound of that “Shankuhin” was so interesting this time that I actually spent quite a time with it.

In the end I played Samson et Darcica by Bastil and Myung Chung. It is amassing what the Injection does to voices!!!

In the end, the Injection Channel is freakishly interesting thing. If someone discover a 4-5” driver that can have the same Syrupy Sound as the Red 10” then please let me know.

Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-09-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #: 67
Post ID: 4578
Reply to: 4569
An impression of the injection channel
OK, Romy gave me an oppotunity to hear the system with the injection channel, so here's what I heard.

The injection channel affects the presentation in a minor and in a very major way.  Minor in context of already well accomplished Melquiades/Macondo system's dynamic and tonal capacity.  Very major in terms of the effect that the injection cnannel has to the enhanced perception of color and texture.  With the injection channel on, the characteristic color and texture of every instrumentation became better defined and expanded, making the musical message even more easily understandable, communicable and enjoyable.  This "expanded" sense of color and texture also seems to add "expanded" feel of dynamics.

The effect is most noticeable on string instruments, but other instruments receive very positive result too.  Turning the channel up makes the whole presentation like that of hyper enhanced photograph.  Taking it off makes the sound feel almost slippery in comparison.

It is difficult to describe what the injection does in its micro dynamics with my limited understanding of audio and my limited language ability (not just of English).  Probably what Romy called "bubble" would come closest.



bubble.jpg

I've heard speakers with resonance of the cabinet supposedly caliculated into the design.  Some Tannoys, some Harbeth, Audio Note, one with PHY (forgot the model).  As Romy posted before, the effect of the resonant cabinet always demonstrate itself everywhere.  You enjoy some and hate some depending on the material played and the characteristics of the resonant.  The effect of Romy's injection channel is very different.  It is more subtle yet more universally effective in a very positive way.  I assume it is the result of specifically targetted application to an already highly accomplished system, and would be very difficult to duplicate anywhere else.

Yoshi
06-09-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,163
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 68
Post ID: 4579
Reply to: 4578
Still determined to change it?
Thanks for the great "outre" description, Yoshi; about as I had supposed from Romy's posts to date, actually, but just such a simple and understandable description and picture.

So is this the original "Big 'Un" or the latest "Wedge", which we have seen outlined in red, above?

Because I am also wondering about loading down the driver in a smaller enclosure, whether/how that might affect the sound as applied.

And how great is it that this works so well as yet another front-firing driver in that mix?

That in and of itself seems so unlikely.

But the proof is always in the pudding, isn't it?

Best regards,
Paul S
06-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #: 69
Post ID: 4580
Reply to: 4579
"Big'Un"
It is the "Big'Un", high-passed at 110Hz if I remember what he said correctly.  The tweeters are back in the main driver frame with some EQ added.  I'm sure the effect I heard came from the combination of the driver and the cabinet. So how a smaller cabinets affects the result?  Beats me.

 Paul S wrote:

And how great is it that this works so well as yet another front-firing driver in that mix?

That in and of itself seems so unlikely.

But the proof is always in the pudding, isn't it?


I don't see any unlikeliness here.  What injected is not ambience artificially created by phase modulation, but "bubbles" that affects the injected frequency range somewhat evenly.

Yoshi
06-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,163
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 70
Post ID: 4581
Reply to: 4580
More and better anyway
By "unlikely" I mean that although I understand the "injection" concept I can hardly imagine successfully adding another front-firing driver into that complex mix.  I would hardly know where to start.  Basically, I am in awe.

No doubt there were some serious practical phase and/or cancellation issues to deal with, and Romy has obviously addressed and/or overcome these issues and/or gotten back something worth the trade-offs, and he has done it so quickly.

EQ, eh?

While that doesn't surprise me, I always think, when did he get time to do it?

I sometimes wonder if Romy ever sleeps!

I'm just now getting a measly phono stage integrated after months of effing around with it when time and energy coincide.

I might not live long enough to integrate additional speakers into my system!

Best regards,
Paul S
06-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 71
Post ID: 4583
Reply to: 4569
One man's junk is another man's... Uh... Injection Channel?
Romy wrote :

"If someone discover a 4-5” driver that can have the same Syrupy Sound as the Red 10” then please let me know"

I will be trying some older alnico drivers in the Mid-Bass horns (the first pair should arrive in about 2 weeks time).

I have been thinking in this direction since you started experimenting with the injection channel.

Then...

One day this week, sitting next to where I had my car parked was a large pile of rubbish. In this pile was an old home-built speaker enclosure, complete with very old full range driver (Divine Provenance?). I of course could not just leave it there... So I gently placed it in the trunk .

Removing the ugly fabric covering exposed what is obvioulsy not expert carpentry work (the whitish stuff is filler). The driver has a cast aluminum frame and a paper cone/suspension, with the magent out in front, so it pulls rather than pushes the cone (while doubling as a phase plug?). I estimate the enclosure at 1.5 to 1.75 cubic feet. It is not just a box (it would seem the builder was somewhat knowledgeable) ; it is made from 3/8 inch thick, very lightly braced plywood.

This weekend I finally listened to it... Just placed it near the right channel, and connected it to the 16Ω tap (the coil measured about 7.5Ω). I was not expecting much.

But...

This thing actually sounds pretty damn good all alone! It is colored, and yes, a bit syrupy is exactly how I would describe it ; but overall, very very non aggressive and really pleasant. Ah... Tone...

Then I tried it with the rest of the system.

While not at all implying that I have a "Romy-Quality" Injection Channel here, the effect of using this thing with no filters, positioned completely arbitrarily, is enough to suggest that (what there is of) my system can benefit from the presence of such a driver... Where and how it might be used is not certain, and I don't know which is contributing more to the listening pleasure ; driver or cabinet.

I will spend some time to find a better position, and wire in a high-pass filter.

I still have no idea who made the driver... Getting that information will require that I open the box, which is not at all made to be opened.

This event really reinforces my curiosity to try such drivers in the Mid-Bass horns. As there are plenty here in Europe, that is exactly my plan (most however are not 16Ω... don't know to what extent that might be an issue... all my other drivers are 15/16Ω... Does anyone have thoughts on this?).

jd*



How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 72
Post ID: 4587
Reply to: 4583
You will have Fun with it...
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
This event really reinforces my curiosity to try such drivers in the Mid-Bass horns. As there are plenty here in Europe, that is exactly my plan (most however are not 16Ω... don't know to what extent that might be an issue... all my other drivers are 15/16Ω... Does anyone have thoughts on this?).
You have a beautiful Cat, Jessie. I LOVE to look at them…

Anyhow , if you fog or multi-amping and the sensitivity of the upper-bass channel is less relevant then you hand are un-tighten and you might have fun with different drivers. Keep the thought lower and juts try drivers. Pretty much all that you need it ears, RTA and any impedance measurements tool...


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 73
Post ID: 4591
Reply to: 4578
I do not think that duplication is applicable in here.

 yoshi wrote:
  I assume it is the result of specifically targeted application to an already … and would be very difficult to duplicate anywhere else.

As usually I have difficulties with it - the duplication. This subject would go along with the subject of me do not like to provide “recommendations” for audio people.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/LatestPosts.aspx?ThreadID=4565

The Injection Channel is not some kind of abstractive tonal Injection but the injection of the specific delta between the raw Macondo and the sound that I feel Macondo should have. There are no reasons for anyone to duplicate what I do. Different paybacks might have different sonic charisma, this owner might have different listening objectives and different tonal reference points… Consequentially those system owners, even if they embrace my ideas of Injection, might chose to use the different colorizing drivers/channels and different ways to use them.

So, I do not see that “duplication” even might be considered as an option. I disclosed what I did and if you, the readers, consider it worth attention then feel free to reinvent your own injection techniques… or would be better - invent drivers that would not need any Injection help.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 74
Post ID: 5927
Reply to: 4591
Commercial Oops?
Are this company thinking along the same 'Oops' lines?

http://www.layeredsound.com/index.html
11-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 75
Post ID: 5929
Reply to: 5927
What are they selling?
Panel loudspeakers? Sound processors and/or Software? Room treatments? It's one of the least informative websites I've come across. If you had more info about them, Guy, please share it with us.

Rgrds.
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