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08-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Saturntube
Posts 24
Joined on 07-08-2005

Post #: 26
Post ID: 11258
Reply to: 11238
About time alignment in mid bass horns
fiogf49gjkf0d
These are some theoretical questions,  I guess we can only build them and see,  but some would be clear no no.

08-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 11259
Reply to: 11258
The time alignment scenarios.
fiogf49gjkf0d

A site visitor sent me emails saying:

“Johan Dreyer says he can hear no time delay with his bass horns…”

Well, first of all I disagree with it. The fact that Johan Dreyer can hear no time delay is not an indication that delay is not auditable. Johan might not know what specifically to listen or he says it as he has no options to time align his midbass. I would agree that one need midbass time aligned with fraction of inch precision but, even inch does not a lot of difference.  But a number of feet of differences is not a good idea. I might say a lot about the subject as I have a LOT of experience to deal with various aspects of time misalignment.  However, my objectives are not to criticize Johan’s view but rather to use the examples of his (and others) decisions and implementation to nail down what I would like to do with my own playback. My standing is that to use horns without time alignment is not good. I am not saying that if a meticulous time alignment was not implemented then the playback shall be dynamited. BUT, I feel that if the objectives of meticulous time alignment are preliminary goals during the period when a system is architected then why do not consider the alignment? Johan Dreyer has no ways to hear his playback in time-aligned mode, I still do…

Now about the diagram with different time alignment scenarios that Saturntube posted.

The top row is unquestionably the best way to time align. The alternative might be turning the horn way off – it is not a problem at all. A midbass horn does not have need to fire directly to a listening spot and to be on axis. The midbass horns might be even parallel to the walls shooting to the back and to be locate at arrival- aligned location.  In case of rectangular hors it is even a preferable way to do the things as it would allow to use lower low-pass filter and to remove more HF from the horn. The only exceptions from this I see in the Jessie-type horns. Jessie’s horns are full spherical midbass and made to be hanged in air above the MF in time-aligned position.  In my view it is absolutely perfect way to do the things but I am pretty sure that I will not have bolls to go for such a radical (but beautiful) solution.

The bottom line looks like the proper alignment but it is not, particularly the left image.  The alignment is not a pure geometry but the equalization of time arrival. In left bottom image has diaphragms in equidistant position but the wave needs to travel across the bend of the horn and this time need to be considered.  So, in the left bottom scenario the midbass horn needed to be moved closer to listener…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 28
Post ID: 11260
Reply to: 11257
Getting on with it, while keeping options open
fiogf49gjkf0d
Regardless of where you get them made, I would opt for free-standing horns mounted on wheels, as this allows the most flexibility in integrating them with your as-yet-unknown space (for example, you could build such horns into a wall, mount them in the attic, install them in the basement, or simply place them beside the MF & HF horns out in the open). This would allow you to get an order in for their construction while still looking for the ideal space.

Romy wrote :
"...PS: Also there is a guy who builds wooden midbass hors. Does anyone knows him and knows if he accept instructions for custom orders and able to follow them?..."
http://www.thundergun.it/ENGLISH.htm

Just gonig on intiution here : I don't know this guy, but he IS Italian, and, based only on experience working with them in making prototype cars, I would be tempted to contact him. Italians are passionate, typically stubborn, but optimistic, and extremely resourceful craftsmen. With the right amount of diplomacy (demonstration of respect), he might be persuaded to do whatever you want. Based also on my experience, it might take twice as long as he says to get the things done.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
08-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Saturntube
Posts 24
Joined on 07-08-2005

Post #: 29
Post ID: 11261
Reply to: 11259
More Ideas
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is another bass horn Floor Idea, they use only one 416 driver. It is time aligned. I would like it better as a ceiling horn, or maybe against the walls. The mouth is long and skinny.

08-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JLH
Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts 42
Joined on 07-20-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 11268
Reply to: 11241
Looks like a good solution
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

It is very self-explanatory and liked it a lot. The advantage is that it might be used in any rectangular room and the most important that it is VERY simple to build this way. I think that if I have room then I might stop by in a local architecture shape and proposing a few cases of beer I might recruit local students to build foe me a set of plaster walls like this. The wall insets might be even easily removed if I wish so. Very cool!

PlayWithJohanDreyerIdea_1.JPG



I llike this solution too. As mentioned, horn length is the biggest problem with the other designs shown above. If I were doing this, I would want at least 9 feet of length. Alingment is another problem. Maybe an all pass filter could help here without messing things up?
08-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 11269
Reply to: 11268
My stupid wet dreams. How little a man need….
fiogf49gjkf0d

Yep, if I do it then I will do it right: with a single driver, with full length, with proper mouth, with slow profile and if it had curve then it will be properly linearly expending curve, not with the resonant chambers or with steps. The problem with it only size, positioning and cost. I hope the size and positioning will be resolved in 800 sq feet room. The cost? Well, people do it once in life… How much those things might cost $10-$15K-20K? I do not know. I still hope that if I ready to proceed then I will spend affords and find a right maker (hopefully locally) whom I will be able to motivate not only by the money I pay to him but rather the uniqueness of the project. I have a recursive wet dream that I’ll found at a next street a good carpenter who I will be able to hook on the idea of “better sound” and who would be inspired to hear what his horn will be able to do.

From how I see it now it might be one of 4 scenarios:

1)    If a new home has this option then I will gladly build the things into house structure

2)    If I add in my 800 sq feet to the house then I will consider how it will be done.

3)    If I end up with 1200-1400 sq feet loft in city then it would depends of the width and height. If I have width not 10-15 feet height then it will be rectangular horns on the side parallel with the walls.

4)    If I have 15-25 feet height then it would be hardly anything more beautiful then what Jessie it trying to do:  full size spherical horns hanging ay ceiling above Macondo in time-aligned position. Call be a person with a corrupted sense of esthetics but if those horns are nicely finished then might not looks like two Hindenburgs but rather like two Dally mythical animals, sort of Pink Floyd’s flying Pigs… I will work with light to make is very “interesting”…

 JLH wrote:
Alingment is another problem. Maybe an all pass filter could help here without messing things up?

Oh John, do not even open this door! There are only disappointments behind this door.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-05-2009 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 11289
Reply to: 11190
A proper commercial midbass horn, sort of....
fiogf49gjkf0d

Since I started this thread I have received a number of emails from people bitching that I do not like this, criticize that and that they can’t figure out what I do like. I reply to them invariably – “Do not read my site as you are too much a Moron”. However, besides the devaluing a “secretive” fact that there are plenty of idiots who visit my site there is a useful side element among the inquiry  that those people ask and the question would be – are any properly made commercial midbass horn available out there?

It would be safe to say that I know probably all public commercial midbass horn available and frankly I do not like any of them. It is not that that all of them sound bad (and most of them are) but rather from a perspective of conceptual architecting not of the commercial midbass horn appears to me.  As I said before - I want full length, small through, sufficient mouth, no chambers, no steps, properly continuing-expending slow profile. Any anyone does it commercially? Nope, everyone cheat.

There is only one commercial midbass that remotely fulfill all my demands. I am taking about Western Electric 15A horn. Then 15A is well-know horn with 57x57 mouth and with a very properly made continually-curving neck.

http://www.audioanthology.com/building.htm

http://www.moviemice.com/we/horns/index.php

it has all attributes  to feet my bill of being good horn.

WE15A.jpg

WE15A_diagram.jpg

Still being the most properly made among the much worse midbass comparators I am not in complete agreement with what 15A does and would like not to repeat their mistakes. The 15A has near 60Hz mouth but was designed to use with WE555 driver that feel hardly comfortable at 100-150Hz.  The 15A has a presses stress zone at the last bend.  The 15A has a bit too low level of horizontal expansion. And in the end the 15A is something that I call wall-stressed horn. The wall-stressed horn is a horn where circumferential force not evenly presses one side of horn bell. The sound that runs across the 15A horn is like in centrifuge pressed to the outer skirt. The presence of the wall-stressing itself is not so bad - the question is how the stress is handled. If it handled with proper dumpling or proper mass-lording of the stressed surface then it is OK. The 150 point of the 15A is not nearly enough to handle the circumferential force of pressure so the 15A sounds as good as many butterflies will lend atop the 15A while it is working. Sure, there is no “movement of air” in horn a horn and the circumferential force in horn might be visualized only conceptually. I do not have data or evidence about the different pressure in the wall-stressed horns. But I do know that wall-stressed horns with all the rest equal conditions do sound always more surface-colored then horn with mouth that have no pressure obstacles or stressed walls.

What is necessary to make the 15A to sound better then it is.  The 15A must weigh 800 pounds for start and the walls shall be 4 times thinker. Alternative to the beefing up the horn wall would be axis-curving of the stressed surface. In this approach the stress will not be applied to the flat surface as it is done in 15A but despaired across curve that located  transversely  to axis of the horn (the way how it done in Silbatone‘s Aporia). The last curved need to be slightly smoothed up. A ultra-low- exertion driver, capable for full 50Hz , good  TTH characteristic, with the same little throat has to be found - good luck with this one! The 15A as it now shall be OK sounding horn - primary because the small throat and slow horn rate. Could it be better, I bet it might. Still, as it is the 15A probably the less problematic commercial midbass horn among all made.

What would be fun if someone would make the replica of 15A only magnified twice larger! That horn will be able to go an octave lower, will be able to use 4-5” throat with more LF able driver. And the most important is that it will be able to have more space in the curved neck and everywhere else to make the walls of this larger horn very tough and very stiff. If somebody makes a pair of those 1000 pounds double-size 15A horn then invite me – it would be worth to listen. I just afraid that to make the double-size 15A horn will be for somebody much harder than to make the same straight horn.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-06-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 11300
Reply to: 11190
Ok, I've found a great home for my left 20Hz bass horn!
fiogf49gjkf0d

It is a bit far…

http://atlas.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&formtype=latlong&latlongtype=degrees&latdeg=42&latmin=16&latsec=12&longdeg=-70&longmin=45&longsec=30

but it has 114-foot ceiling and it is FREE

 http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/20303604/detail.html

... and it is "romantic"

 http://www.lighthousefriends.com/light.asp?ID=474  (great read!)

MinotLedgeLight.jpg

The Cat




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 11301
Reply to: 11300
Consider
fiogf49gjkf0d
Plenty of light to work light in to the night, but good luck keeping your driver cones dry.  And no worries about the electrical grid.
08-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 11302
Reply to: 11190
People who do general contracting…..
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is not a specific question but I would like to have some abstract general numbers in my head. Paul said somewhere that he is in building business, perhaps other are close to it. So, might I have a very approximate estimate for a project I describe below? Sure, it would greatly vary depending many conditions but I still think some point of reference might be given, particularly since I have no point of monetary reference at all.

So, it I have properly with a shell building on it  to which I would like extend one wall then what the cost might be? Let keep all subjects of zoning and permits aside. The point is that I do not add one room but I tear down one wall and extend space. So, we are taking about contraction of brick 3 walls of approximately 25’ by 35’ and 12’ tall on a concrete slop. The standard triangle or a single angle ceiling (17’ feet near house wall and 10 feet at opposite side). No internal decorative walls around the brick shell, no digging for foundation, no basemen, no heating, no pluming, no electricity, no widows, no doors…

Can somebody give me a very rough numbers?
Thanks, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-07-2009 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 36
Post ID: 11304
Reply to: 11190
The throat considerations.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I was thinking about the throat of my hypothetic midbass horn. This is complex, controversial and it has pretty much no answer, at least in the formeat I ask it. I will share my thoughts with you.

Let pretend that I went for exponential midbass profile, perhaps with a slight hyperbolic dent. Let look a very preliminary numbers for spherical horns. From the diameter of spherical it is simple to get area of circle and to convert it to any rectangular format. Also, if I would like to add to my exponential profile any hyperbolic depression (and most likely I would) then it would make the horn longer, let say 15% longer for a sane level of “hyperbolicizm”.

Throat diameter Type (Hz) Length Mouth diameter
4” , 10.2 cm, 81.7 sq cm 50 3m / 9' 10" 1.6m /5' 3"
4” , 10.2 cm, 81.7 sq cm 40 4.03 m / 13' 3" 1.95m / 6' 4.8"
6” , 15.2cm, 181 sq cm 50 2.5 m / 8' 2" 1.6m /5' 3"
6” , 15.2cm, 181 sq cm 40 3.5 m / 11' 6" 1.95m / 6' 4.8"
8” , 20.3cm, 324 sq cm 50 2.3 m / 7' 7" 1.6m /5' 3"
8” , 20.3cm, 324 sq cm 40 3.1 m / 10' 2" 1.95m / 6' 4.8"
10” , 25.4cm, 507 sq cm 50 1.98 m / 6' 6" 1.6m /5' 3"
10” , 25.4cm, 507 sq cm 40 2.8 m / 9' 2" 1.95m / 6' 4.8"

It would be very nice to have a good compression driver with 4” throat and to load it into 4m /13 foot horn. The biggest problem in here however is not the horn (that is a bitch itself) but the driver. Who the hell has a good driver with 4” throat that will be able to do 40Hz -50Hz and to sound “interesting”. The Japanese manufactures GOTO and ALE reportedly heavy and expensive bass drivers that might do the job but where is the assurance that they have interesting sound or even sound appropriately? I do not trust to those people (in fact I do not trust to anybody), their drivers are not available for experiments and whatever people do build with GOTO/ALE I do not like. What it important in this paragraph to memories that the biggest problem with GOTO/ALE drivers that they are the drivers with “predetermined” sonic quality and the quality of them unknown.

So, sanest solution would be to open up throat and look for larges driver. This would make the horn shorter that does not suck too much, but we I not want to go for too large throat as I will loss the horn gain at lower octave. The 6” is looks like fine throat but if I have my driver that I like is 15” then it will do too big front chamber. The 8” probable will do better with 3M 40Hz horn – almost manageable, isn’t it? Well, yes and not.

Remember I was bitching about the unknown sonic quality, the unpredictable TTH characteristic of GOTO/ALE bass drivers? I have a very high confidence in the TTH quality of my selected 15” drivers that is used as compression drivers in my hypothetic midbass but there is behind my confidence a very big slippery moment.  Regardless what you heard from anyone and anywhere there are a few absolutely invariable rules on horns. They are not my own rules but they universal are the rules with what you can’t fuck with. I call them “Macondo's Axioms”, not particularly because they are implemented in Macondo bur because I discovered them while I was playing with Macondo (search for Macondo's Axioms if you wish more). So, one of unconditional postulates of the Macondo's Axioms is that it is absolutely impossible to predict how the sound of driver will be changed what the driver will be loaded into a horn.  I know, I know, I know… I see a crowd of Morons armed HornResps, T/S characteristics, Earl Geddes’ assurances and other irrelevant craps scream in response that what I just said is not true. But trust me - they do not know anything about Sound - I do. The truth is that in driver-horn interaction besides the common algorithmable mass-reactance paradigm there are so many other satellites that the final TTH modification of a horn-loaded driver is absolutely non–predicable. Where does it leave me? 

It leaves me with the fact that my beloved 151-10/40 driver of 15” sounds extraordinary but I know it when the driver is load into 15” throat. I have absolutely not idea how the Sound will change when it will be loaded to 8” or 6” throat.  I might become even better but there is no way to know it, the very same as with GOTO/ALE bass drivers…

About my hunch. Generally I feel that the drivers that slightly compress sound at open air sound better in horns. My 15-inchers sound in open air or within a very low compression of 15” throat very nice and very full. This is not a good sign. However, I have no idea how big from the cone mass of the given driver the reactance of the 12” long horn would be and how the driver will be behave sonically when I begin to harden it with the  back chamber. Some drivers bloom in this application and some loose colors, contacts and other “exoteric” characteristics. The point is that it is absolutely imposable to know what driver will do until you build the damn horn, put the driver in use and see what happen. An additional sad thing is that even among those few who have done something near-similar not one passes any constrictive critical feedback about the results.

So, in the environment of complete lack of clarity what would happen with the sound of a given loaded driver the decision to do for 4”, 6” or 8” throat become pure arbitrary and at this point I have no slightest idea what I would do it I go there.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-07-2009 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
JLH
Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts 42
Joined on 07-20-2004

Post #: 37
Post ID: 11306
Reply to: 11304
Make your own
fiogf49gjkf0d
The way I would handle this is make my own 4" exit compression driver. What I mean is select a woofer with known good sonic qualities that match your requirments. Then make a phasing plug for it. My past attemps have been decent. However, I have noticed that most woofers (cone drivers) do not want to see much more than 6.5 : 1 compression ratio. You can make a perfect casting of the woofer and use this as the blank to begin machining the phasing plug. See below pictures for an example for 5" woofer.


Cover woofer with Parafilm thermoplastic





combine fast setting resin according to instructions



Pour resin up to the correct level




Allow resin to set up




Pop the phasing plug blank off of woofer - now machine it


Rgs, John
08-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 11307
Reply to: 11306
I would like to use my 15-incher, the question is HOW?
fiogf49gjkf0d
John, I see where you go with it.

I afraid that I will not be making my drivers – I have no idea how to make them in order them to sound the way I need. I have no problem to design and to make 4" exit compression driver or to undertake a project to reengineer an existing crappy one (like Community M4) but I have absolutely no idea what TTH characteristics (Tonal-Transient-Harmonics composite balance) this project would lead to.  So, I would rather take advantage of what I have and what I know and capitalize upon what have a very good reference.

I need to say that the sound of Vitavox 151-10/40 drivers make me horny like nothing else. They are truly Stradivarius of mid-bass drivers. They are in a way similar to Altec 515G but Altecs have dry and purple-like tome vs. Vitavox is much warmer, much more most and witch much more sophisticated harmonics. The very first versions of Tannoys – Silver and Reds has some sort of that quality but Tannoys took it a bit further and flood sound with very lucrative colorations. The Vitavox in contrary is very smart and if necessary it can play clean and unprejudiced, in some cases it show some very fine tone and if it willing to do all the way down to the tonal firework then it opens own tail like a magic peacock, showing off what level of tonal nobility is possible in audio. If you find yourself to visit me I will let you just to scratch the cone of well-preserved 151-10/40 and you will have your multiple-orgasm… So, I truly would like to use THAT as the source. Now, how do not lose THAT in the compression and horn gain – that will be the dilemma.

What I need from you, or from anybody else, try to think how to load 15” driver into 6”-8” throat without building too much compression. I need to mention that I do not take out of accounts the option to go for side-positioned 15” throat and labyrinth loading…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JLH
Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts 42
Joined on 07-20-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 11308
Reply to: 11307
Circumferential phasing plug problems
fiogf49gjkf0d
I understand your position on compression and not wanting to screw up the tone. The Community M4 driver is the perfect example of how NOT to build a 4” exit compression driver. First, the cone/dome material is garbage. Neither the sandwiched aluminum nor the carbon fiber cone/dome has anything interesting to offer in tone. In addition the phasing plug is all wrong in design. The circumferential phasing plug is a huge offender of tone if not implemented correctly. Funny enough, Vitavox is the only one to get it right in the S2. All others are compromises which do not have interesting tone.

The problem can be seen in the design of the circumferential phasing plug. Various different frequencies launch off of a cone or dome where the frequency’s wavelength is equal to circumference. So, if you have a 15” woofer and play an 800Hz tone through it, you will find that most of the acoustic energy is coming from the area of the cone that is 5.38” in diameter. The higher the frequency, the closer the sound emits from the dust cap area and vise versa.
 
Now knowing this, you see the inherit flaw of the circumferential phasing plug. The rings that form it block several diameters across the dome. This also creates reflections and resonance problems. The radial phasing plug on the other hand does not suffer from these problems. Since the radial slits start at the center and go to the edge of the done or cone, all diameters have a clear path straight forward and all tones are represented. They are not impeded or forced to wiggle around a ring. This means that all tone gets through the radial phasing plug and is better preserved. No it doesn’t exactly sound like the cone without a phasing plug, but it is very much closer to not screwing with the sound.

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/Altec&Henrickson_Tangerine.pdf

Another advantage to the radial phasing plug is the slit width and dome spacing can be changed to shape the high frequency response. The circumferential phasing plug dies quickly at high frequencies, but the radial phasing plug has a useful high frequency tail.

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/Henricksen_1978_Tangerine_PP.pdf

Rgs, John
08-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 40
Post ID: 11310
Reply to: 11308
....puzzled with your response....
fiogf49gjkf0d
John, I am bit puzzled with your response.

I do not know what would be a proper material for cone/dome of diaphragm. The source where “tone” is born in compression drivers is absolute mystery to me and I in my holly naiveté believe that no one else knows where tone comes from. If people would know it then they would use their knowledge but they don’t.

What actually surprised me in your reply is your accent on phasing plug. You might be right in what you say about tone and  phasing plug design but it would hardly might be related to my problem in the hand (OK, I admit the hypothetical problem as now). My Midbass horns will most likely rolls off at 160-200Hz and I do not see it use any phasing plug at all. In contrarily I think it might (might) need some kind very “messy” front chamber. What I say the “messy” I meant an intentionally high order of HF reflections and cancelation in order to keep HF as much attitude as possible. I even thought to have between the throat and the driver a small anti-horn curve that would maximize the HF mess but also would introduce a soft change of compression ratio.

Are you truly seeing a phase plug in 40Hz midbass horns?  I see only contra-phase plug. I have no idea how to do it for now and how it might affect anything by I certainly do not see in there a classic phase plug.

Rgs, Romy the Cat
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,148
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 41
Post ID: 11311
Reply to: 11304
The Great Unknown
fiogf49gjkf0d
With respect to the throat, profile, etc., that's +/- what I expected earlier, germane to the earlier horn tuning in development question.  And this seems to suggest that most folks who simply math it and then stay with that result are either lucky, deaf or delusional.

Regarding a "simple"  addition, you will always require at least 5 sides for a "one-wall" addition, and likely some sort modification to the existing structure, too. You will need a foundation, a floor, walls and a roof, and you will probably need a good deal more as well, whether you like it or not.  Costs are lowest in rural areas where the weather is docile and the earth nurtures building.  Cost go up exponentailly as one moves toward and into urban areas, hot or cold areas, earthquake, hurricane, etc. areas.  Fees alone can bring strong wealthy men to tears, and building and zoning codes have been known to cause madness.

If, as you suggest, all is tre's simple, then figure on 50k minimum for masonary costruction.  But don't be surprised if it is not so simple, after all.


Best regards,
Paul S
08-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JLH
Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts 42
Joined on 07-20-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 11312
Reply to: 11310
Fourier transform tells the story
fiogf49gjkf0d

Yes, I see the need for a phasing plug for a 40Hz bass horn. Most people choose to ignore the finer details and claim the wavelengths involved are too long to be affected by phase plug. If someone really understands the fundamentals of sound origin, then a phasing plug begins to make sense.

All you have to look at is Fourier transform. All “natural” sound consists of fundamental and harmonics. If a speaker does not reproduce the harmonics correctly, then the tone is not reproduced correctly. It is the harmonics at the higher frequencies that help shape tone.



You can take a sine wave and make a square wave by taking the fundamental and adding together its harmonics. If these harmonics are not added together correctly, then you cannot reproduce the sound. Think about what will happen to the music you play if your speakers did not reproduce the harmonics correctly. The waveform would not look like the original and it will not sound true.

Low E string on a bass guitar has fundamental frequency of 41Hz. However, its 2nd and 3rd harmonics have much higher amplitudes. This is normal behavior for a lot of musical instruments. It is very common for the harmonics to have higher amplitude than the fundamental note being played. Below is the frequency response of a guitar. You can see the fundamental being played is centered at about 65Hz, however the harmonics have much more amplitude. The relationship of the harmonics to the fundamental, and the other harmonics are responsible for the tone of the instrument.



So, even if you cutoff the bass horn at 160Hz – 200Hz, it still must get these higher frequency harmonics correct for 40Hz to be reproduced correctly. The real trouble begins when you must have the mid bass horn handle the harmonics of the fundamentals coming out of the bass horn due to the crossover point. You have to get the fundamental coming from the bass horn to sum correctly with the harmonics coming out of the mid bass horn. This is very tricky to get right.

Rgs, John

08-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Saturntube
Posts 24
Joined on 07-08-2005

Post #: 43
Post ID: 11313
Reply to: 11311
Midbass Adjustable Horn
fiogf49gjkf0d

ConicalSectorsHorn.jpg

  I have been running around this design for a couple of months...I re-designed it just now to change some numbers according to your post. The main idea is to have a lot of posibilities in a huge horn:It is formed by conical sectors that are not too heavy and can be easily moved.These conical sectors follow a design curve (hiperborical, tactrix, exponential).Once it is put toghether it is supposed to be light enough to move it and place it properly in the room.When all tests are final and it is positioned, it can be sand filled to avoid resonances. It also has the posibility to change throat diameter and its according lenght.It could even have the posibility of taking out the last sector in order to change it from say 160cm to 2 m mouth.(though we get far from the original curve,  thats a price to pay)This could help out in choosing the right driver, or the right load for the driver. The first part, smaller and closer to the driver is made in turned MDF in very much the same way the upper bass horn is made.This damps resonances and does not contaminate magnetically the sorroundings of the driver.The throat can be adjusted by very small increases even, by taking out the first couple of MDF rings. The bigger sectors are conical and with a center chamber to be filled in with sand, these are made from sheet metal welded to thicker flanges that can be bolted toghether.The metals can be Aluminum, Stainless steel, or normal cheap magnetic, corrodable steel for testing.... I have made some Water tanks in sheet metal, and even a couple of conical upper bass horns, and I can tell it is very doable!I might have the space for testing it in a couple of weeks... But I dont think I could really fit them in my listening room. I am closing a transaction for a pair of WE 555 drivers in very good shape...so I might try them in a bent version, I want to see how low and high up they will go with a nice tone.. and build from there. Those snails look pretty complicated...  If I make it to your place, would you let me scratch the cone of that Vitavox driver too!!!
08-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 11317
Reply to: 11312
My take about midbass and phase plug.
fiogf49gjkf0d

John, I disagree.

No one deny the importance of harmonics and you are right saying that “If a speaker does not reproduce the harmonics correctly, then the tone is not reproduced correctly.” However you are talking about a complete speaker, not about the narrow operating midbass channel. Yes, the relationship between midbass and upperbass channels will be tricky to set properly. People do not know but people do not use the midbass horns properly. You see typically people having midbass run it all the way up unto lower MF and in THAT case you would be correct. In my case my midbass will be running in very narrow band-path and then I will have a full blown upperbass horn that has no phase plug but it has very HF-able driver, not to mention that two octave above it I have a dedicated Fundamentals channel the takes over… So, the harmonics are not problem to handle properly. In case the people run midbass too wide and particularly in case of improperly folded horns the harmonics become screwed, I would agree but not in case of narrow midbass.

I do not plan to do phase plug on my midbass. Here is for you another reason why. Midbass horn is not upperbass horn. When the upperbass horn that you made for me outputs les say 120Hz then it sends out 8.2 feet wave.  This wave is comparable with listing distance and perfectly “matured” when I reach ears. That is why you upperbass is very much direct-firing type of horn and it does wonderful. Did you try to listen your upperbass from 1-2 feet?  It has completely different upperbass sound that I do not like. In my past I have build a small setup for the position right next to my upperbass mouth. The balance was right but the upperbass was totally wrong.

Not pretend that that my midbass horn shot his 50Hz. It will be 19 feet wave or 6 Meters; the 40Hz will do 25 feet. I do plan to keep my listening distance shorter then this, probably 10-12 feet as max. So, in this scenario I will be in the zone of immature midbass. Bruce Edgar looks like fight the problem with floor firing his 35Hz refrigerator midbass. I am planning to turn off my midbass horns from the listening position to get first bounce of midbass from boundary. For instance if I hang the horn at ceiling then the will be shoring to the back wall near-parallel to ceiling or to the side of the listening position. If I in this situation will do phase plug on my midbass then the sound of the horn from EQ perspective will become directional. I do not what it and I will intentionally use it as non-directional transducer. My idea to use midbass is to load the room, this why I do not want to have overly large room – I will burn the midbass excursion and midbass amp power. The directivity, HF harmonics and the sense of acoustic bass direction with respect to a listening position I anticipate overriding with the upperbass horn.  I would not even mention that a phase plug on midbass would require high order low-pass filtration with more complex phase spin at crossover point.

So, I do not see a phase plug in my midbass. I might remotely agree with it what people use midbass in context of 2-3 ways system but in 6-ways I do not see a need for it.  Also, a phase plug adds compression to the driver.  A 15” driver loaded to 8” throat without a phase plug would have the similar completion (I think) as the same driver loaded to 10” throat with phase plug. If I would be OK with higher compression for my paper-base driver then I would rather go do smaller throat, let say 6” throat. I do not as I feel that it might make my cone too stiff and to over-dumped with compression and with consequential tone diminishing. I am not convinced that it not going to happen even with 8” throat….

Anyhow, they were just a few my own arguments that I have against the phase plug on midbass horn. I have a few more but you the picture… Warn you that I never had a properly made midbass horn and evrything that I expressed is hypothetics and extrapolations form my other experiments. But this position of mine does make sense to me, at least now.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 11318
Reply to: 11313
The interchangeable backs for midbass? I do not know…
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Jorge, that is good but a few thighs I would like to mention in this approach:

1)    What you depict will work with tractrix or conical horn but not hyperbolic curve. The hyperbolic has own “swell” into exponential curve that would make it to swell differently at different profile rate.

2)    The extensions for midbass (for different throat) will be way longer…

3)     I do not see a practical need to modify throat in midbass. Let me explain why.  If we modify throat in MF driver, let say from 2” to 1.5” then we just replace the bottom of the horn with length compensator, and not a lot of things change. In a midbass a change between 6” and 8” will be 2-3 foot length change and the would require a repositioning of the horn in new time-aligns location. So, it is not so simple, not to mention that sine you have done it one you would hardly do it again.

I have interchangeable bottom on my MF horn. How many times was even considering doing it for 8 years? None! So, I am pretty sure that if a pees make a 4M monster you depicted then it will sit in there for year and years…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 11324
Reply to: 11190
The "Hanging" inverted Midbass J-horn.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Here is an idea that I partially like. I make the horn “invisible” by using a full height of a room; I made just 12” as an example.

HangingMidbassHorn.jpg

This is basically the regular J-horns but it is INVERTED and has a few advantages over what people have done so far.

1)      It has very low footprint. You might laugh but it is.
2)      It has an easy ace to the driver
3)      It is easy to move it across the room -juts drive a new hook into ceiling and re-hand the horn
4)      It is easy to tow it off without changing a footprint
5)      In case the room have very high-ceiling it will be very well will break up the HF typical high-ceiling echo reflections
6)      It has just 3 sections
7)      It is very effectively loads ceiling that “might” allow to go even ¼ size
8)      Since it will be located into-front and on-side of MF then it will act as very effective defuser from side MF reflections, introducing a slight “life-bottom-dead-top effect.
9)      If I cover the bottom with carpet then my Koshka will have a phenomenal scratching post
10)   Since It is vertically inverted J-horn and I do not position my MF above it I have no need to castrate the profile of the bend and I might run absolutely perfect parabolic right across the bend

I show the idea to my Koshka and she like it. She told me that if she climbs all the way atop the horn then I never will be able to harass her again.

HangingMidbassHornKoshka.jpg

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 47
Post ID: 11333
Reply to: 11324
The midbass Pipeline Conversion horn???
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thinking further about my "Hanging" inverted Midbass J-horn presented above I asked myself: where is to cut this 12’-13’ horn hypothetic horn. Initially I thought to do it in order to keep the parts smaller to be able to fit them through the doors and windows. But then I hit me that if a horn would have an strategic cat in right place then it is possible top have one horn that bill be able to be installed as J-horn and as a straight horn. The mouth and the throat with the back chamber are the most expansive part of a horn to makes – right? So, what do not reuse them, having just a small middle section modifiable? Since I never saw people proposed this idea for Midbass I will name the concept as “pipeline conversion horn”. The image below is very self-explanatory.

PipelineConversionHorn.JPG

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 48
Post ID: 11334
Reply to: 11333
Straight / J Horn - Why?
fiogf49gjkf0d
What is the purpose of having the flexibility to re-configure from straight to J horn?

This thing will be large and massive enough that physically moving it from one configuration to another will be difficult and require a lot of effort.  Conceptually it would be interesting to compare each configuration and learn about sound.  Nothing wrong with the idea, but due to its size and weight, is their any real-world application?  I don't think so...

I like the other poster's idea of a configurable throat, compression ratio, and back chamber.  Sure it has drawbacks too, but you could learn about the affect of different compression ratios and throat sizes on your driver's behavior.  You also gain more flexibility in case you want to use different drivers. 

If you want the ability to modify and control the sound from this horn and driver, why not focus your efforts on the throat-side instead of the mouth?
08-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 49
Post ID: 11336
Reply to: 11334
RE: Straight / J Horn – Why?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 skushino wrote:
What is the purpose of having the flexibility to re-configure from straight to J horn?

This thing will be large and massive enough that physically moving it from one configuration to another will be difficult and require a lot of effort.  Conceptually it would be interesting to compare each configuration and learn about sound.  Nothing wrong with the idea, but due to its size and weight, is their any real-world application?  I don't think so...

I like the other poster's idea of a configurable throat, compression ratio, and back chamber.  Sure it has drawbacks too, but you could learn about the affect of different compression ratios and throat sizes on your driver's behavior.  You also gain more flexibility in case you want to use different drivers. 

If you want the ability to modify and control the sound from this horn and driver, why not focus your efforts on the throat-side instead of the mouth?

I think you took it wrong. No one plan to “physically moving it from one configuration to another” and there is absolutely no my desire to have any “learning” experiments with it. If I will do it then it will be done once and right - I will know what I will do. The purpose of having the flexibility to re-configure from straight to J-horn is to have the opportunity do not redo the whole horn is you ever need to go from straight to J-horn or vice versa. To make another mid section is not expansive and complex but it would be possible ONLY if the horn is cut on the sections with the aim that it might be re-configurerable. The horn will be made with sections anyhow – so the slicing the horn on sections might be planed considering a future re-configuration.

Let me die you another scenario. You made the inverted J-horn with enter height of your room.  Instead of hanging it you attach to the mouth two legs on skates (all the way to floor) and not you have a tripod upon which the horn stay: back chamber and two legs. Now you can move your horns as the room looking for the right position using my ideas of the macro-imbedding. After you found the right position for the horns you can hang them there from ceiling but you suddenly discover that in those found positions you do have room to continue the neck of the horn as a straight horn.  In the horn is made with re-configurerable aim then you will mark the found position of mouth, flip the re-configurerable middle sections on the horns (or only on one of them) and then you hand to ceiling completely straight horns . It shall free up a lot of footprint in room and make the horns “invisible”.

Sure it I fill the hors with helium then they might float in the room themselves and I can shepherd them like a flock of geese…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 50
Post ID: 11337
Reply to: 11324
Time alignment is a real problem with this kind of horns
fiogf49gjkf0d
The idea of using this type of midbass horn seems good, but I don’t see a solution for time alignment of the horn with the other channels. You have a freedom to physical align it if it is placed in the same vertical plane with upperbass mouth, but the problem with time integration still remains open...


"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
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  »  New  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee..  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  11713  02-03-2011
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  »  New  What are the effects of back chamber volume for mid-bas..  A ha!...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  11016  09-27-2013
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